Guide The Pichu Matchup Thread

[DerfMidWest]

How much damage does yoshi need to have for Pichu's thunder to stop his jump? I know for Pikachu in PM it's 18%.

Also surprised thunderflipping on yoshi's isn't mentioned in the jiggly matchup... If you can chain a few up airs, puff is dead. :D

yoshi goes through pichu's thunder until a decently high percent. The thunder properties are pretty different.
PM also doesn't make sense some(most)times.

uair strings agaisnt puff are a fair point as well, pretty difficult to actually kill with though if they DI off stage, since it's hard to get maxium distance offstage thunders and live, especially on yoshi's.
but when they DI towards center stage, it will work.

but Puff can SDI out of thunder and not die pretty easily, so I'd recommend it as a mix-up, rather than a go-to kill set up.

 

[Comet7]

so here's the question of the century. who wins the kirby/pichu matchup? i'd say pichu, since mobility > down throw

 

[DerfMidWest]

It's actually pretty close.
It's really hard to get through kirby's defense, his wd back tilts and bair are ridiculous, but if you make him approach, he kind of can't. You have a projectile and he doesn't (well... he kind of does) unless he sucks you up, which you should never let happen.

If you get grabbed, you're boned, because pichu's tech rolls are so bad that kirby can actually react to anything and get a regrab, SDIing his jabreset is actually pretty hard, but basically the only escape.

Edgeguaring kirby is free as hell once you learn how to do it though, just watch for weird aerial mixups, but generally, I just jump out, wait for the aerial, then rising nair. Dair is weird, but it has some slow ass startup. Don't come down on him, because you'll get uaired.
Space around fairs and bairs.

kirby can't get down if he's above you, so just uair for days. when he gets high up, thunder is hard for him to avoid.

obv., usmash OoS is an amazing punish for misspaced aerials.

jolts are amazing if kirby leaves the ground. on the ground he'll just utilt/ftilt them though.

 

[Comet7]

Question: Is gimping Peach possible?

Also what's an ideal way to go about tech chasing? I'd guess jab to cover missed tech, and then shield to wavedash OoS or dash dance.

 

[DerfMidWest]

It's definitely possible to gimp peach.
Pretty sure I wrote a big ol' paragraph about it when I wrote up the MU, but I'll summarize:

Peach is terrible at dealing with things underneath her. So your go to edgeguard on peach is this:
1. jolt to knock her out of her float/dj
if she is a decent peach, they'll often shake out of tumble into float to save the dj, so pay attention to that, just jolt the float, then jolt again for the double jump.

2. when she upBs, get under her and then rise up with a nair. if she's not dead, just do the same thing again. Her recovery is super slow, so you'll be able to make it back to the stage and run off again easily.

if she's going mid or high, I like to use thunder walls
my signature thing is doraki jump->thunder wall (The Derf hop).

 

[proxibomb]

Here's more MUs for Pichu. I'm too lazy to put Mewtwo up, I still haven't gotten all the combos done, or any of the percentages really studied. I need some help with Mewtwo. All I know is that you should spam nairs, and can dodge most of his moves by ducking.

Yoshi -
Stages - Battlefield, Dreamland
(0)
Yoshi's MU with Pichu says '0' but you might have a bit of difficulty against him. First off, Yoshi's moves, mainly tilts, will knock you back pretty far. Your best option would be to DI any tilts, especially down tilts, a popular move for Yoshi players. When Yoshi edge guards or tries to gimp, your best bet would be up-b teleport away from the stage, and then straight ahead to go above Yoshi's head, or through him. Your goal is to teleport above him or sometimes through him, just be warned that Yoshi's can read your teleport and used various moves to get you off the edge. Yoshi's dash attacks will be a large advantage for you. If Yoshi ever uses a dash attack, punish him by rolling away/wavedashing away and grabbing him. When versing Yoshi, you will have to push him off stage. Gimping and a good edge guard should KO him. It's hard to time, but try to f-tilt when he gets close to the edge. Yoshi will often grab the edge and other jump and cover ground with down-b, or throw eggs. Always avoid his eggs. Always.

Now, there are two ways you can win a match with Yoshi. First would be an offensive game, using a large array of nairs, bairs, uairs, and getting the kill with a dair, or up-smash. You might ask, how do I get a kill with a dair against Yoshi? Usually above 90%, Yoshi will start to move far from your moves when you hit him, if you use a dair (shorthop + dair) and hit him directly, not to the side, he'll fly off stage. If Yoshi were to DI this, he'd probably still go flying off a side, if you crouch cancels, he'll go straight down fast. Playing a Yoshi with a defensive game takes longer, and is more difficult, but of course pays off. Pichu will depend on bairs, nairs, and uairs. Use uairs and nairs to stock up damage, use bairs when he gets very close to you, the hitbox is really useful for hitting people to the side of you. Always short hop when doing these moves, otherwise going too far from him will have you land somewhere else on the stage, where Yoshi could punish you with a grab, or tilts.

Sometimes, Yoshi will use his fair, it's basically the third strongest meteor smash-potential move in the game. Air dodge this when near the ledge, or near the top of the stage. Pichu's moves won't usually beat Yoshi's fair, since the fair can't be cancelled early with any of Pichu's (aerial) moves. When you air dodge onto stage, Yoshi will miss and have to get back on stage. Use this time to edge guard. Edge guarding is one of the most important things to get rid of a Yoshi. Remember that.

Kirby -
Stages - Fountain, Battlefield
(0) It says 0, but I'd put a 1.
Kirby is an odd MU, but Pichu can actually dominate a Kirby match. I'm sure Kirby isn't too common in tournaments, but just in case, I studied the percents and perfect moves to get rid of Kirby. As a Kirby, there are two things he could do do dominate you. Luring with a kirbycide is one option, gets rid of Pichu very quickly. To avoid kirbycide when he's near the ledge, simply spam your analog stick/control stick until you're let loose from Kirby's grab. Kirby will instantly fall to his death, as he won't be able to cancel a empty kirbycide, where he falls to his death grabbing nobody. Kirby will often use bairs to stock damage. Stocking damange and getting a kill with an up-smash is Kirby's other main game. Basically, Kirby uses these moves to get a quick percent:

1. Bairs
2. Nairs (not too common, since there is ending lag)
3. Jabs
4. Down grab, jab, aerial move/tilt combo

Let's talk about the last one. Down grab, jab, aerial move/tilt combos are basically the one combo Pichu will get juggled into. As Kirby gets a successful down grab, he'll start a sequence of jabs, and finish you off with either a aerial, or a tilt. Tilts are mostly used since there is little ending lag for utilts. Avoid his hammer, which will instantly kill you above 55%, sometimes 60%. If you do manage to get hit, or your opponent is constantly pressuring you with the move, crouch cancel. You could DI, but your best bet would crouch cancelling, since DI'ing the move could still kill you. Edge guarding Kirby is very simple since Kirby has his multiple jumps, and his up-b. His up-b is what you'll use to kill him. Constantly gimp him far from the stage until he's forced to use his up-b. This is best done on Fountain, since the bottom blast zone is far down. When he's finally got a up-b left, edge guard, roll off, and wait for the death. If he can make it to stage, use your shield to dodge the attack, and punish him with a grab. Facing a Kirby should be pretty simple, since Pichu's speed and moves have the upper hand. Use Pichu's f-smash as a finisher move, best done when Kirby is around 60%.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Here's more MUs for Pichu. I'm too lazy to put Mewtwo up, I still haven't gotten all the combos done, or any of the percentages really studied. I need some help with Mewtwo. All I know is that you should spam nairs, and can dodge most of his moves by ducking.

Yoshi -
Stages - Battlefield, Dreamland
(0)
Yoshi's MU with Pichu says '0' but you might have a bit of difficulty against him. First off, Yoshi's moves, mainly tilts, will knock you back pretty far. Your best option would be to DI any tilts, especially down tilts, a popular move for Yoshi players. When Yoshi edge guards or tries to gimp, your best bet would be up-b teleport away from the stage, and then straight ahead to go above Yoshi's head, or through him. Your goal is to teleport above him or sometimes through him, just be warned that Yoshi's can read your teleport and used various moves to get you off the edge. Yoshi's dash attacks will be a large advantage for you. If Yoshi ever uses a dash attack, punish him by rolling away/wavedashing away and grabbing him. When versing Yoshi, you will have to push him off stage. Gimping and a good edge guard should KO him. It's hard to time, but try to f-tilt when he gets close to the edge. Yoshi will often grab the edge and other jump and cover ground with down-b, or throw eggs. Always avoid his eggs. Always.

Now, there are two ways you can win a match with Yoshi. First would be an offensive game, using a large array of nairs, bairs, uairs, and getting the kill with a dair, or up-smash. You might ask, how do I get a kill with a dair against Yoshi? Usually above 90%, Yoshi will start to move far from your moves when you hit him, if you use a dair (shorthop + dair) and hit him directly, not to the side, he'll fly off stage. If Yoshi were to DI this, he'd probably still go flying off a side, if you crouch cancels, he'll go straight down fast. Playing a Yoshi with a defensive game takes longer, and is more difficult, but of course pays off. Pichu will depend on bairs, nairs, and uairs. Use uairs and nairs to stock up damage, use bairs when he gets very close to you, the hitbox is really useful for hitting people to the side of you. Always short hop when doing these moves, otherwise going too far from him will have you land somewhere else on the stage, where Yoshi could punish you with a grab, or tilts.

Sometimes, Yoshi will use his fair, it's basically the third strongest meteor smash-potential move in the game. Air dodge this when near the ledge, or near the top of the stage. Pichu's moves won't usually beat Yoshi's fair, since the fair can't be cancelled early with any of Pichu's (aerial) moves. When you air dodge onto stage, Yoshi will miss and have to get back on stage. Use this time to edge guard. Edge guarding is one of the most important things to get rid of a Yoshi. Remember that.

Kirby -
Stages - Fountain, Battlefield
(0) It says 0, but I'd put a 1.
Kirby is an odd MU, but Pichu can actually dominate a Kirby match. I'm sure Kirby isn't too common in tournaments, but just in case, I studied the percents and perfect moves to get rid of Kirby. As a Kirby, there are two things he could do do dominate you. Luring with a kirbycide is one option, gets rid of Pichu very quickly. To avoid kirbycide when he's near the ledge, simply spam your analog stick/control stick until you're let loose from Kirby's grab. Kirby will instantly fall to his death, as he won't be able to cancel a empty kirbycide, where he falls to his death grabbing nobody. Kirby will often use bairs to stock damage. Stocking damange and getting a kill with an up-smash is Kirby's other main game. Basically, Kirby uses these moves to get a quick percent:

1. Bairs
2. Nairs (not too common, since there is ending lag)
3. Jabs
4. Down grab, jab, aerial move/tilt combo

Let's talk about the last one. Down grab, jab, aerial move/tilt combos are basically the one combo Pichu will get juggled into. As Kirby gets a successful down grab, he'll start a sequence of jabs, and finish you off with either a aerial, or a tilt. Tilts are mostly used since there is little ending lag for utilts. Avoid his hammer, which will instantly kill you above 55%, sometimes 60%. If you do manage to get hit, or your opponent is constantly pressuring you with the move, crouch cancel. You could DI, but your best bet would crouch cancelling, since DI'ing the move could still kill you. Edge guarding Kirby is very simple since Kirby has his multiple jumps, and his up-b. His up-b is what you'll use to kill him. Constantly gimp him far from the stage until he's forced to use his up-b. This is best done on Fountain, since the bottom blast zone is far down. When he's finally got a up-b left, edge guard, roll off, and wait for the death. If he can make it to stage, use your shield to dodge the attack, and punish him with a grab. Facing a Kirby should be pretty simple, since Pichu's speed and moves have the upper hand. Use Pichu's f-smash as a finisher move, best done when Kirby is around 60%.

Yoshi is a hard MU for pichu/pika. The matchup chart is just super outdated.
If you get a solid hit in, or a grab, you'll get a nice combo out of it, but watch for CC (yoshi has the best in the game), DJC/DJCCs, and parries. Pichu's moves are very susceptible to CC (DJC is basically an aerial CC)
If yoshi is crouching on the ground, shffld dairs are a good mixup and will sometimes combo into grab. Don't use it too much though, because it's slower, and can still be parried.

I don't recommend being above yoshi... ever.
it's a good way to die.
Either get to the ledge or the top platform (if safe/possible).
Yoshi is weird because it actually takes yoshi awhile to get up to the top platform.


Kirby is a weird mu. When I first started playing, and was all gung-ho and didn't look at the game objectively enough, I loved to say pichu won it too. But it's even as hell.
It's very hard to approach kirby if he spaces tilts and bairs.
I usually use a lot of retreating jolts, kirby isn't too good at dealing with projectiles, especially since pichu's jolts travel at an angle.

If you get grabbed, you're boned. Pichu's tech rolls are terrible, the only way to get out of dthrow tech-chases is to miss the tech and SDI the jab-reset up and nair or something.
but once they catch on, they'll realize they can just punished missed techs with dsmash, but then you get out of the tech-chase, so its up to you to decide if that's worth it or not.

 

[Comet7]

Since Yoshi's down tilt has fixed knockback, is there any way to DI it so he can't follow up?

 

[proxibomb]

Yoshi is a hard MU for pichu/pika. The matchup chart is just super outdated.
If you get a solid hit in, or a grab, you'll get a nice combo out of it, but watch for CC (yoshi has the best in the game), DJC/DJCCs, and parries. Pichu's moves are very susceptible to CC (DJC is basically an aerial CC)
If yoshi is crouching on the ground, shffld dairs are a good mixup and will sometimes combo into grab. Don't use it too much though, because it's slower, and can still be parried.

I don't recommend being above yoshi... ever.
it's a good way to die.
Either get to the ledge or the top platform (if safe/possible).
Yoshi is weird because it actually takes yoshi awhile to get up to the top platform.


Kirby is a weird mu. When I first started playing, and was all gung-ho and didn't look at the game objectively enough, I loved to say pichu won it too. But it's even as hell.
It's very hard to approach kirby if he spaces tilts and bairs.
I usually use a lot of retreating jolts, kirby isn't too good at dealing with projectiles, especially since pichu's jolts travel at an angle.

If you get grabbed, you're boned. Pichu's tech rolls are terrible, the only way to get out of dthrow tech-chases is to miss the tech and SDI the jab-reset up and nair or something.
but once they catch on, they'll realize they can just punished missed techs with dsmash, but then you get out of the tech-chase, so its up to you to decide if that's worth it or not.

By being above Yoshi, I meant to say the only reason you should be above him is for recovery options. As for Kirby, have him spacd out, and most likely wait for him to come to you.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Since Yoshi's down tilt has fixed knockback, is there any way to DI it so he can't follow up?

up and away.
he won't really have guaranteed follow-ups, but he can still read you, so be careful with it

 

[Comet7]

this is a very vague question, but i'll ask regardless: how do i deal with link? he's really annoying to approach and i'm not sure i'm counterpicking like i should be... i usually try to pick stadium against the one i play, but it only seems to give him a lot of room... i guess yoshi's could be good against him? i don't know since i haven't come across any pichu vs link videos on youtube...

 

[downbfordays]

this is a very vague question, but i'll ask regardless: how do i deal with link? he's really annoying to approach and i'm not sure i'm counterpicking like i should be... i usually try to pick stadium against the one i play, but it only seems to give him a lot of room... i guess yoshi's could be good against him? i don't know since i haven't come across any pichu vs link videos on youtube...

The projectile's aren't as big of a problem as the sword is, so Yoshi's is not that great Imo, you want to stay out of range of his sword in neutral, but close enough that you can punish if he tries to pull a bomb. You need to bait out attack and punish, because its very hard to approach past jab, grab, forward air and up air. Your juggle combos also don't work that well because he can try to down air out. The big advantage is his bad recovery, if you get a back throw near the edge link should be dead every time.

 

[DerfMidWest]

jolt if he tries to sh bomb pull, if you space it correctly, he will get hit by the jolt before his bomb comes out (this is one of ICGs favorite things to do)

Uair juggling is really hard and risky, but you can definitely do it. you have to space so that your uair is basically hitting the side of him as opposed to hitting directly under him. its hard, and doesn't really do much. I don't like just stringing uairs together in general though.

Overshooting his shield is bad, because he'll just upB OoS, but if you land in front with a super later nair, you can grab him at very low risk, since he won't be able to upB or bomb throw (or grab) before you can get a grab out.

edgeguard with jolts to knock him out of his tether. Learning his tether tricks can be a little difficult, but you can cover them all.
link's recovery is very weak against attacks coming straight down on him, I like to use dairs at lower percents to combo, and straight nairs at higher percents.
You can also sneak under him and uair if you want to try and combo it at low percent.
Thunder walls over the edge are also hard for him to deal with.
Edgeguarding him on stage is much more difficult. If you're directly over the edge, and he holds in to the stage, you can fsmash, but smarter links will fade back then sweet spot.
You can also time dsmash so you avoid being hit during its invincibility, but that's hard sometimes.

Pretty much, in neutral, you want to bait out his bad stuff by playing on platforms and stuff.

really helps if you learn how to catch bombs. its harder than catching turnips, but it really screws with links projectile game.

 

[Comet7]

any tips for the kirby matchup?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Ooooh I gotchu. I don't have time right now, but I'll do a full writeup later.
Basically puff, but a lot easier in neutral, and if you get grabbed you take a ton of damage.

 

[Comet7]

Ooooh I gotchu. I don't have time right now, but I'll do a full writeup later.
Basically puff, but a lot easier in neutral, and if you get grabbed you take a ton of damage.

plzzzzzzz deeeeeeeeeerf

 

[DerfMidWest]

Oh I forgot. Don't have time right now, but if im free later ill bang that out right quick.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Going a little out of oder here, but w/e. As per request:

11. Kirby

~Stages of Choice:~

1. BF I love battlefield in this matchup because it really allows you to move around kirby. The top platform is very high, and it takes kirby a minute to get up there, Pichu also moves from platform to platform a little too fast for kirby to keep up with.

2. DL pretty much the same concept as battlefield. Preference comes a little into play here. There is more room run around, and it takes kirby a long time to trap you, but on that stage, this matchup takes forever because neither character can really kill the other one very easily. I prefer battlefield, but this one accomplishes the same thing.

3. PS Stadium is nice because there is a lot of ground space, low ceiling, which benefits you much more than the kirbster, and kirby gets kinda screwed by the transformations (they can also mess you up too if you don't have a lead though). You have to deal with not having a top platform though.

YS and FoD are very small stages, which kirby is able to control a lot better. He also tends to kill on these stages faster than you do with things like uair and bair due to the closer side blastzones.

---

So general stuff with kirby, the old matchup chart says pichu wins this mu (iirc, it's the only one it says he wins), I think this matchup is super even, very stage dependent, and the outcome depends heavily on who gets the lead first. But Pichu can camp the hell out of kirby.

Kirby's moves have a lot more range than yours, which is a bit irritating to learn how to handle. This makes getting in on him pretty hard most of the time.
That said, most of kirby's moves have a fair amount of cooldown, which is your opening to approach with shffl nairs.
You have to watch how low he is to the ground though, because if he lands quick enough he'll throw out a tilt to stuff you.

Kirby on the ground is much more threatening. Utilt, up angled ftilt, and jab are amazing at stopping pichu's approaches. I don't know many kirbys other than myself who use pivot jab->grab, but that's actually incredibly effective against pichu.

In the air, his moves all have big hitboxes to control air space with, but like I said, there is cooldown that lets you get in if he tries to threaten you with those.

So a big thing that makes this matchup hard for kirby is that Pichu is a lot faster than him, so he has to try and control the space Pichu wants to approach him from.
This doesn't work if Pichu doesn't approach.

It takes kirby a decent amount of time to reach the top platform, then it takes him awhile to get back down from up there.
Pichu can abuse this weakness pretty hard.

When you're up on the top platform, kirby pretty much just tries to poke at you with his moves underneath the platform (usually uair or fade back fair). Because these moves have cool down, you can straight light shield on the platform (to avoid being shield poked) when he comes up there, then shield drop through when he hits you.

If he uses uair, you can just shield drop nair or uair him (I like uair a lot because kirby really does not want to be above you).

If he fairs, then fades back (which is safer than uair), you can either drop to the ground, or agility OoS onto one of the side platforms. I like to use agility OoS onto a platform he's fading back towards so I can punish him, but you have to watch for the remaining hits of his fair. (This is most effective on battlefield because of the distance between the platforms).
Going to the ground is still really effective since you're underneath kirby, and also safer, but the reward isn't always as great (with the agility, you can often usmash while he tries to pass you or something, which can get you kills).

Kirby can theoretically jump bellow the platform then edgecancel an aerial hammer on the platform you are standing on, but that's super difficult, so you probably don't have to worry about it. If he goes for that and misses, he'll either be stuck on the platform with 16 frames of landlag (WD OoS to punish), or he'll miss the platform and have to deal with aerial hammer's crazy cooldown (agility to the side platform or shield drop to the ground bellow him).

Another powerful tool pichu has is jolt. Jolt is irritating for kirby because it travels at an awkward angle his moves don't cover that well. I like full hop retreating jolts, landing on platforms as a response to kirby jumping at me. His uair will cover this, but it still doesn't do him any good aside from getting center stage (which still isn't much if you have the top platform to retreat to).

Getting grabbed sucks. This is a huge problem for Pichu, because he gets tech chased haaard by kirby's dthrow. Like... kirby can just stand there and react to either tech in place or missed tech, then wait for either of Pichu's tech rolls. It's one of the hardest tech chases for Pichu to escape.
Once you're above like 40%, you can escape my missing your tech, then SDIing the jab reset up and away and either jumping out or nairing.
Kirby can just start down angle ftilting or dsmashing you instead of jab reseting though, which kinda sucks, but isn't that bad because you still escape.

Kirby actually doesn't really have an answer to thunder walls if he's in the air.
This is useful not just for creating space between you, but also for annoying kirby while he tries to recover (thunder wall over the ledge).
He either has to waste jumps waiting for thunder to end (kirby has 5 aerial jumps. Remember that, it's important), air dodge through it if he's high enough, or get hit.
It's actually really nice, because if you space it far enough out, and kirby runs out of jumps, he has to airdodge because his upB doesn't have enough aerial mobility to reach the ledge.

I'm pretty sure you can marth slayer kirby's upB too, but don't quote me on that one.

Last thing, regarding swallow and swallocides; if kirby tries to absorb pichu's power to get a projectile, you can attack as soon as you get popped out, which sucks a but for kirby.
When he tries to swallocide, if you have even stocks and a fair chunk of percent (or kirby has no %), if you don't mash, kirby has to die, if you mash out, he can recover.
That said, Pichu is able to if he mashes out, so keep that in mind.

In regards to suicide throws, you just mash the stick back and forth for bthrow and fthrow (or in circles if you want to escape hella fast).
For uthrow, kirby dies first and you can upB as soon as he does. It's weird. If you got grabbed out of your double jump, you won't have it back though.

On the subject of double jumps, if kirby ever uthrows you on stage, he does not have any jumps after the throw completes and he's stuck in the air. Sometimes you can agility underneath him and usmash or utilt to pop him up then just hit him a bunch because he can't really avoid you without his jumps.

 

[Comet7]

well i learned why to not approach peach in the air yesterday. down smash is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo annoying

 

[DerfMidWest]

Down smash is actually one of the biggest things I look for peach to do. You want to bait it out, most peaches will just throw it out when they panic or when they land.

 

[Comet7]

i was talking about when i nair a peach in the air that is close to the ground and she down smashes me when i land next to her. i guess i could avoid it by doing reaction up airs or buffering roll but that gets me almost nothing. i'd rather take sheik than this... you weren't lying when you said it would be tedious before. i'll just check the data for down smash to see if that seems possible.

well it starts on frame 5 so i guess it's workable...

 

[DerfMidWest]

I would just bait the dsmash out then punish it.
You can do this pretty easily against bad peaches by conditioning them to think you're going to approach with low nair, then start djing away right before youre in dsmash range.

In general, you usually want to be approaching when your opponent is vulnerable, so learning to identify those situations can be pretty hard.

 

[Comet7]

i now have a less depressing view of the zelda matchup. it's SOOOO boring but dash dance nairing her for five or 6 minutes gets the job done.

 

[DerfMidWest]

i now have a less depressing view of the zelda matchup. it's SOOOO boring but dash dance nairing her for five or 6 minutes gets the job done.

That's more or less the idea. I also just try to platform camp her if I get a lead because she actually can't really do anything about that.
The matchup gets very very difficult if she has the lead though. You can't really do much about kicks except get under them with utilt/uair/usmash depending on how she uses kick (rising sh kick can be followed by a second falling kick, waveland, or dj kick, which can be followed by a 3d kick).
Not a super fun mu for me personally, but pichu has some stuff.
I still don't think its super good for him though.

 

[Comet7]

against marth, would getting hit by dolphin slash on purpose so i could wall jump tech nair work? the marth killer would probably be better in almost all situations, but i want to explore other options.

 

[DerfMidWest]

against marth, would getting hit by dolphin slash on purpose so i could wall jump tech nair work? the marth killer would probably be better in almost all situations, but i want to explore other options.

first hit has fixed knockback and is untechable, iirc.
I just wait for the sideB and nair while it's in cooldown, it's a super punishable move.

 

[Comet7]

i'm talking about marth's up b

side b is dancing blade, scrub

 

[DerfMidWest]

oh whoops totally misread that lmao.
I've never tried doing that to my knowledge, but it might be possible. You might want to test it in dolphin.

I would probably just drop invincible nair from the ledge.

 

[Comet7]

dolphin is a pain to use though. new idea: marth killer facing away from the ledge into nair.

what do you try to do in the neutral game against marth? I've been trying to dash dance and look for opportunities but that doesn't work if marth doesn't swing his sword much. i realized this when i was against a roy in PM while playing as Fat Pichu. should i even attempt to CC?

we also need to start doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBJkkjEYmxY

 

[DerfMidWest]

dolphin is a pain to use though. new idea: marth killer facing away from the ledge into nair.

what do you try to do in the neutral game against marth? I've been trying to dash dance and look for opportunities but that doesn't work if marth doesn't swing his sword much. i realized this when i was against a roy in PM while playing as Fat Pichu. should i even attempt to CC?

we also need to start doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBJkkjEYmxY

You can do marth slayer->nair facing the ledge if you hit A quick enough. Easier if you just angle your shield straight back instead of back and down so you dont ff to the ledge.

In neutral, if marth isn't swinging his sword, you want to make him start doing that.
So you have to threaten his space.

 

[Comet7]

thanks, i realized my neutral as a whole is really lackluster, so i'm working on that

can you shower me with some of your yoshi mu knowledge, derf?

also for what muted said in the other thread up air gimps sound fun

 

[the muted smasher]

On the thing with wd in place vs shine nair pichu has faster better coverage options like nair oos/upair/up smash are all faster and can hit more than one option fox has also shield sdi back makes nair push You to far back and You might be able to get a backwards grab or make foxes next shine whiff for a free grab.

Why it matters as marth is because he is one of the few in the cast where wd oos in place is faster than a normal shield release and he has no backwards options that are safe, fast or even good for punishment.


Best anti yoshi meta I can think of is to jump on a platform and shield and when he egg tosses to tap it You up b so it whiffs and You get in yoshi s face and f smash because yoshi sticks his nose over the stage edge and the multi hit sometimes freezes yoshi in place during his 2nd jump


Pivots are the future for making marth pichu a 60-40 on good stages aka not ys/fod

 

[Comet7]

thinking about the falcon MU again, would yoshi's be good against him? nair overshoots would cover half the stage so i figure his dash dance would be less effective there, and the platforms are good for comboing falcon. yeah, we die early, but falcon already kills us quickly.

 

[the muted smasher]

Other than fod all stage picks feel wrong vs falcon it mostly depends on how much they approach and their spacing

 

[DerfMidWest]

thanks, i realized my neutral as a whole is really lackluster, so i'm working on that

can you shower me with some of your yoshi mu knowledge, derf?

also for what muted said in the other thread up air gimps sound fun

Just saw this now.
I dont have time to do a full writeup, and honestly yoshi has never been my best mu, but pretty much you have to be super careful with how you approach. I use a lot of dairs because yoshi CCs everything.
Nair can be pretty garbage as long as yoshi is grounded or has his dj.
Uair is awesome if yoshi is in the air.

Yoshi also doesnt take shieldstun, so you have to be very careful to space around shielddrop aerials if he's on a platform.

Stagewise, just really try to avoid ys and fod.

 

[EZえん]

Sorry to Disappoint i guess, but pichu yoshi is the farthest thing from even... I mained yoshi for over a year and i won countless mm's against pichus and pikachus. Pichu has literally no way to stop yoshi's cc game especially when he has the best spot dodge in the game as well. Yoshi can land down b, fsmash, fair, nair, upsmash at almost any percent if he gets a grab and can use eggs to make recovery extremely limited for pichu. Also the strength of yoshis attacks means he kills pichu very early. And one last thing is that u cant really campout yoshi with jolt because his better movement and if you jump in with nairs and stuff he can dashdance or aerial dash dance and punish very easily.

 

[the muted smasher]

My nair beats You nair my dd game beats Yours and I get in on ics and avoid cc d smash so besides being combo food it ain't bad and how does a yoshi go about getting a grab?

 

[EZえん]

yoshi doesnt really need a grab, but DJC nair comobs into grab actually. Also your nair only beats my nair from above and yoshi has an unlimited DD range because of DJL. yoshi also has aerial DD which no one else does so you definitely dont have better DD game. Idk why you brought up ics?

 

[the muted smasher]

You tryed I'll give You that.

Pichu runs faster and has quicker more range grabbing option pichu just can cover more ground faster and better and escape faster, You can't really debate this like maybe vs sheik due to her issues. And air dding? You still don't get that You can't have a single approach cover 1/3 of fd nor a single movement option. Pichu, s nair does that

Pichu, s nair is disjointed last time I checked yoshi, s is not look at the hitboxes

Ics cc wreaks more than yoshi s

Yoshi beats pichu due to risk reward ratios, but I won't say he wins the neutral

A 30-70 match-up at worse and if yoshi plays right and does enough waiting

 

[Comet7]

if anything yoshi's platform movement is what beats pichu, not some FD-like atmosphere which actually augments pichu's options for once. still not that great since it's a guessing game between if yoshi tries to parry, cc, or move, but pichu can contend pretty well with those options.

but nair kills pichu so early and when yoshi wins the guessing game it hurts