The Old Diddy Social/General/Q&A Thread

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Vyse

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#1
The recent restructuring of the Diddy boards has seen a major reshuffle of threads. This thread is now to serve as a more general thread.

Discussion in this thread should pertain to:

  • General or Social Discussion
  • Developments in Diddy Kong's Metagame
  • Diddy Kong's Moveset and Properties
  • General Strategies
  • Questions about different aspects of playing Diddy Kong
  • Requests for help regarding learning different Diddy techs.
  • Current trends in tournament placings, and high achieving players

Just keep in mind that all normal, global rules apply in here. No excessive spamming! Basically feel free to talk about what you want in here, as long as they aren't all one liners and contribute meaningfully in some way.

Before asking any questions, you should check out these threads:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179708
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236290

They have information pertaining to a lot of questions you might ask such as "What is Glide Tossing?"
 

Vall3y

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#2
a good tactic versus reflectors like wolf and falco is glide tossing down to fake out the shine. versus falco you'll have to maintain a distance so you wont get hit by the shine hitself, so even after this 'fake out' he is relatively safe.
a more technical demanding tactic would be glide tossing downwards, then turning around, picking up the banana and throwing it (or glide tossing it) back at him. all this has to be done in a fast speed and i havent been able to apply it constantly into my game , though im very rusty technically so it doesnt mean much
if you would glide toss it down already facing the opposite direction you wont have to turn around to pick it up, but it makes it easier to see what you're planning

so... can we get some rainbow cruise discussion going? this can make KO'ing chars like snake easier, though his utilt can probably gimp you on that part of the stage...
 

Vyse

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#3
Problem is, is if you counter pick Hylian rainbow cruise, they're probably going to counter pick somebody more appropriate for the stage. Meaning Diddy will usually be at a disadvantage seeing as his banana game gets messed up by the moving stage.
 

Red-Blue

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#4
Well, talking about the reflector play, sticking with a single banana will do. Against Falco, I found it especially effective to glide toss into throws. Considering Diddy's throws are basically lagfree, you can simply pick that 'nana back up and repeat. Also, Glide Tossing downward usually forces them into reflecting, am I right?

[EDIT] Oh wow, I was horribly beaten to it. Fast posters are fast.
 

Count

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#5
Even though we have our own matchup thread, we seem to be talking matchups here so what do you guys feel about the zelda matchup? The dins fire+reflector make it difficult for me.
 

Le_THieN

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#7
Meta-Game Developments

This is probably the first fighting game where I have seriously, consciously, and actively taken part in the advancement of any one character’s meta-game. I’ve always hopped on board a fighting game some time after certain rigors and standards have already been set by my predecessors, and that was true in Melee as well as I didn’t pick up the game competitively until sometime during 2004. For all of Brawl’s quirky constraints, supposed limitations on advanced game play and superficial sheen of lack of balance, it’s already shaping up to be something that’s both fun and competitive simultaneously. As a community, we have the opportunity to truly pioneer the meta-game of a character, and that is a pretty cool thing to be able to watch unfold from the very beginning.

That said, I had an extensive conversation with GameDragonX over AIM a few nights ago, and I think there’s sufficient evidence to believe that we’re approaching a fork in the road regarding Diddy’s meta-game: it is either going to be pushed to new, exciting, advanced and unprecedented levels of play, or it’s going to take a graceless swan-dive and collide into a brick wall. The Diddy forums have experienced an influx of curious and eager new users in the last several weeks, and you don’t have to take my word for it, but I firmly believe that it’s going to be these new players who are in the driver’s seat in determining what that new trajectory will be.

Unfortunately, the both of us lean on the latter as inevitability in large part because it will only be a matter of time now before one of Diddy’s greatest components to his quiet, left-field competitive success evaporates completely: his lack of notoriety. It has been more or less crucial in lending me that important element of surprise – the ability to just blindside and overwhelm with a character who has (arguably) the most versatile and sophisticated brand of item micromanagement in the entire franchise.

But for as solid as Diddy’s current peak level of game play is, let’s face the facts: even Diddy’s most talented, premiere representatives (GameDragonX, Nanerz, NinjaLink) haven’t been able to consistently clinch first-place finishes in tournaments. GDX has participated in a tournament literally every weekend since Brawl’s release, and he still hasn’t managed to get past Florida’s infestation of top-ranked Snake mains in the country to grab the gold.

My fear here is that people are going to be looking at this collection of dazzling videos we have and think that the banana rush is all that they are going to need to be victorious. I don’t particularly blame anyone for feeling this way; it is, after all, a very impressive thing to watch players get devastated by that sort of flashy, aggressive, hyper-kinetic banana salvo. The thing with this though is that it will only be a matter of (very short) time before everyone on the competitive scene firmly acclimates themselves to this basic, two-dimensional approach; and before they send these new Diddy mains kicking and screaming all the way back to the forums for quick fixes. From there, it’s also only a matter of time before accusations of overrated-ness start to flood in.

My only advice to new players is to not skip these critical steps of learning all the nuances of Diddy’s entire move set. It would be a very unfortunate thing for you guys to pass up on these necessary fundamentals and cut straight to being ***** in competitive play. People need a good ***-beating every once in awhile to put their strengths and weaknesses into perspective, but you’ll gain nothing from being obliterated if you don’t understand why you lost in the first place.

Bananas don’t always solve everything, and they are a far cry from the ultimate counter to either Snake or Meta Knight, especially if used improperly. Just bear that in mind.

Move Set and Properties

After dealing with a slew of ROBs, MKs and Peaches (repped hard by Oklahoma’s most famous Melee export, KOS-MOS) who have a penchant for abusing high-priority aerial approaches, I’ve developed an overwhelming fondness for the peanut popgun. It’s a fairly recent acquisition as of the last month, and I wish I started using it sooner. There’s much to be valued in interrupting airborne opponents and then capitalizing on the opening with any number of follow-ups Diddy is capable of. It’s particularly useful against Peaches, since the trajectory of an uncharged peanut usually spells “game over” for a Peach who’s floating low enough to abuse the D-air tap-dance.

D-tilts and U-smashes are two moves I would like to see or hear about people making more frequent use of. D-tilts are decent for initial shield-pressuring, but subsequently yield greater results whenever you manage to make them drop their shield and bait the shield-grab when you start spamming it. More often than not, you’ll end up clapping them right in the nuts as it is faster than most grabs in the game. Running U-smash is now my primary spot-dodge punisher; it looks cool out of a cartwheel, but it’s even better when you’re able to rack up free 14-16% damage at a time after you successfully bait spot-dodges. F-smash and D-smash have worked for me in the past, although to significantly less reliable degrees. As we all know, F-smash has a bit of start-up and cool-down (making it an instant liability in this situation), and the sheer speed of the D-smash may move the hitboxes out of position too quickly before the opponent has actually rematerialized from their spot-dodge.

General Strategies

Nothing ground-breaking here, other than the fact that there’s a certain smug satisfaction I get after I successfully bait a dash chase with retreating banana tosses into a Diddy kick in their direction.

Discoveries

This may or may not be completely new depending on who you ask around here, but I believe I may have found out a couple of things about Diddy’s crawling capabilities that I don’t think have been posted anywhere. During one of my friendly Snake match-ups today, I thought I would try ducking and crawling underneath Snake’s barrage of grenades for the sake of trying an underused approach, and I learned that a properly-spaced D-tilt actually out-prioritizes the mortar slide/Snake dash. This in and of itself wasn’t too surprising, considering that the D-tilt also stops Meta Knight’s dash attack dead in its tracks with a clanging effect (leaving the surprised MK open for a follow-up).

What was even more interesting was my subsequent trip to training mode, where I played around with crawling a bit more. What I learned here was that you could not only crawl with bananas (duh), but you could also D-tilt with a banana in your hand. It’s relatively simple to execute: once you’re in crawling position with a banana in your hand, rotate the joystick slightly forward to initiate forward movement and then push the attack button. This either produce the effect of throwing the banana straight down (in which case you didn’t push forward enough), or a D-tilt with a banana still in your hand.

Additionally, if you rotate the joystick up closer to the forward position a little bit more, you can produce a low-angled F-tilt Yoga punch with the banana (I was also able to produced the normal F-tilt punch as well). This might also not be anything particularly earth-shattering, but the option to execute to reasonably quick attacks with a banana In your hand, combined with the fact that you can glide-toss out of a crawl can really open up some new approach and defense possibilities, as well as lead into some interesting setups. In the very least, I would argue that this has more merit than being able to F-smash with a banana in your hand. =)

EDIT: I lied. I just retested it, and you can't do a F-tilt or any of its angled variations out of a crawl with a banana in hand. Sorry for the false hopes. You can F-tilt out of a crawl alone, though. I kind of had my doubts about the utility of F-tilting with a banana in your hand over a D-tilt anyway, since it has more cool-down frames after activation.

Just FYI: Glide-tossing backwards out of a forward crawl takes a couple of tries initially, but it's pretty easy. Glide-tossing forward, on the other hand, is going to take lots of work.

And to (sort of) make up for my initial blunder, I did notice that you could implement downward-angled F-tilts into your edge-guarding game without running off the ledge if you simply just crawl all the way to the edge and hit the attack button. We all know a fresh F-tilt has killing capacity at certain percents, so I'm curious to test out what kind of gimping capacity a downward-angled F-tilt might have.

EDIT 2: I just tested crawling D-tilts while holding an item with all characters that apply: Sheik, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Squirtle, Pikachu, Yoshi, Ivysaur, Luigi, and Snake. It still seems that Diddy still benefits the most out of this because firstly, his D-tilt is the only spammable D-tilt; secondly, because he will probably always have an item in his hands; and lastly because he has the greatest utility for glide-tossing out of a crawling position. But who knows? - The only characters out of that list that I play extensively are Sheik and Lucario, and it's hard to say what kind of crazy **** people are liable to come up with these days.
 

Vyse

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#8
@Le_Thien:
Yeah, this is the first time I've ever been at the conception of a metagame to watch it develop.

-

I think this time in Diddy's development had to come at some point. Diddy has been a late bloomer, and I'd wager that he's going to end up tiering somewhere high alongside the likes of Marth and Falco, maybe a little lower. I think of him as a dark horse, like Doctor Mario was, at this point.

-

I highly agree with your points about Diddy's becoming complacent in the ability to simply overwhelm opponents by going glide toss happy.

In this thread 'The Dangers of Auto-pilot' I outlined my concerns about my own, and other Diddy's that tend to go glide toss happy without really thinking about what they're doing.

-

Wow, so you can attack from a crawl without throwing your item?
This could possibly be a universal tech! If it is, I'll be adding it to the AT list in Tactical discussion.

-

:)
 

Count

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#9
Good post Le_thien

Sometime a top diddy should consider putting matchup numbers and each of the matchups, like 60-40 in diddy favor etc. Just something I'd like to see that hasn't been done so far.
 

Martial

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#10
A minor little "trick" I discovered today: if you pick up one of Diddy's bananas using his bair, you can continue to throw out bairs without throwing the banana until you perform some other action (such as jumping). This only works with bairs from what I have seen. I have no idea whether or not this has been discovered before; my apologies if it has. The only real application that I can see this being practically used in is using a bair when you first pull out a banana, and then bairing again if your opponent tries to rush you.

Edit: I suppose that this could also be used to RAR a double bair, and then immediately follow up with a glide toss. Adds to Diddy's approach options, I guess.
 

NinjaLink

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#11
Meta-Game Developments


But for as solid as Diddy’s current peak level of game play is, let’s face the facts: even Diddy’s most talented, premiere representatives (GameDragonX, Nanerz, NinjaLink) haven’t been able to consistently clinch first-place finishes in tournaments. GDX has participated in a tournament literally every weekend since Brawl’s release, and he still hasn’t managed to get past Florida’s infestation of top-ranked Snake mains in the country to grab the gold.
What are u talking about. I won 3 NYC weeklies in july and won a jersey in july alone. I got first last week at a weekly, i beat m2k and got 3rd at esticle.
 

Vyse

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#15
^ lol ^

Anyway, I've altered the name of the thread to include 'General Help' as well. This should stop threads like 'How2glidetoss' appearing (Hopefully).
 

TomTom

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#16
Diddy Kong is the most enjoyable character to play as in my opinion, but with the vast influx of skill and ATs, do people think that Diddy Kong has the potential to be one of the best, if not the best character in the game?

He certainly seems to have a lot of potential in my eyes. :chuckle:
 

Martial

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#19
Diddy Kong is the most enjoyable character to play as in my opinion, but with the vast influx of skill and ATs, do people think that Diddy Kong has the potential to be one of the best, if not the best character in the game?

He certainly seems to have a lot of potential in my eyes. :chuckle:
I'm honestly not sure how much his metagame game will evolve. I think it's entirely possible that he'll stagnate (unless, of course, people keep discovering things with him). That being said, he's a good character, but he definitely can't compete with the likes of Metaknight. He's high tier, not top.

But yes, he definitely has the potential to evolve. People just need to keep putting work into expanding his metagame.
 
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#20
If your smart with your bannanas how do you not compete with Metaknight. NL beat mew2king and lots of other high level metaknights. Ive beaten Metaknights. Diddy has probally one of the better metaknight matchups.l

I dont think Diddy will stagnate. His Bannanas offer up like 20x as much possiblitys,setups, pressure and combos..
 

Martial

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#21
If your smart with your bannanas how do you not compete with Metaknight. NL beat mew2king
I didn't mean directly, I meant it in the sense of "compete for the spot of top tier". Diddy can beat Meta in a fight, but he's just not as good of a character overall.
 

Count

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#23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaeZ8mlMDO4

Here's my diddy. Looking for critique, please do not bring me down just by telling me I suck or whatever. I know I am not that good, I never really tried to play competitively until brawl came out, I played melee just with friends with items and crap. And I know the opponent is bad, don't pick on him, he is my friend. All that being said, I'm not scrub. I play well online despite having a terrible connection. When it is lagless, I can go toe to toe or beat a lot of the people online.

Bottom line-help my diddy, don't rag on my friend, thanks in advance for the critique.

vyse-feel free to put this in your giant thread if you're wanting videos to depict matchups..I know neither of us are good at all but I've always felt the more videos the better, despite the players not being outstanding.

One last point to make-I am probably not playing as well as I could, because my opponent is not too great I tend to get lazy..not that I'm amazing at my best or anything. I consider myself average.

/edit if you watch notice the funny dialogue between my friend and myself concerning dribbling towards the end of the vid.
 

NinjaLink

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#24
U were poor with execution. U need to learn out to glide toss better. When i saw u doin the double dribble it looked like ur struggling. When the toon link missed the grab, u coulda did dash attack to dair then edgeguarded or techchased depending on how he DIed. Ur playin too slow basically. SPEED UP. U didnt lay enough pressure.
 

Vyse

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#25
Okay, I've created a document on my computer for the sole purpose of collecting the URL's of Diddy Matches.

Feel free to post them/PM them to me.

I'm going to add them to the tech-sticky under the video section, and as the matchup chart nears completion, I'll add them to that as well.
 

Le_THieN

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#26
So! I've been slowly trying to work this newly-expanded crawling game into my play-style, and being able to crawl around and D-tilt while having a banana in your hand is slowly starting to show promise.

If you pick up a banana and start crawling around executing empty D-tilts, a disconnect seems to register in people's heads and make them forget that you're even holding onto a banana. I've successfully baited people into approaching me while I've been in crawling stance, and from here you have a few options:

• Continue to D-tilt. If you anticipate dash attacks from MK for instance, you can time your D-tilt so that it either clangs with the attack or just causes damage. It's a move that's deceiving in both range and speed, so take advantage of this fact and spam it at every possible turn.

• Crawl backwards to reset your spacing.

• Crawl forward and D-tilt (this, of course, is dependent on your opponent's position). From here, you can start some real confusion by glide-tossing backwards out of your forward crawling advance.

• Glide-toss any direction.

Like I mentioned before, this new technique isn't anything particularly game-breaking to the Diddy meta-game, but it does add some more much-needed depth to a largely unexplored portion of Diddy's offense and approach tactics. I feel that it's worth mentioning as a side note that I've only been able to consistently glide toss out of the crawling stance whenever I roll opposite of the direction that I crawl in. Having to hold down on the directional stick already creates some awkward button inputs, but it's just too difficult for me to crawl and glide-toss out of the stance in the same direction of my crawl. If anyone is interested in experimenting, let me know if you find a solution to this.
 

NinjaLink

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#27
Well its possible to do that while crawling. Ever tried double tapping the cstick to execute the roll and the toss itself? Also A works to throw it forward. Wont be a smash throw though. Just calling out the options :-P
 

Le_THieN

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#28
Well its possible to do that while crawling. Ever tried double tapping the cstick to execute the roll and the toss itself? Also A works to throw it forward. Wont be a smash throw though. Just calling out the options :-P
I'm not sure I follow. This might be true if you were standing, but if I recall correctly, C-sticking left or right while crawling will only produce D-tilts while C-sticking up and down will cause you to throw the banana. Are you just naming general out-of-shield alternative button inputs?
 

Vyse

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#29
I just tried double tapping the C-stick whilst holding my shield button to glide toss a banana (Because I assume that's what NL means) and it didn't work. Diddy just drops his shield and throws the banana.

What am I doing wrong?
: o
 

NinjaLink

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#30
I just tried double tapping the C-stick whilst holding my shield button to glide toss a banana (Because I assume that's what NL means) and it didn't work. Diddy just drops his shield and throws the banana.

What am I doing wrong?
: o
Scratch that lmao.
 

AlphaZealot

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#31
Okay...

Doing a D-tilt while holding a banana: I've done this by accident...how? Its different from doing Smash attacks while holding bananas (Hold A + C-stick then release A). And does anyone know if its possible to do something other than F-Smashes with bananas in hand?
 
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#32
You don't have to hold A at all.

C stick diagonally down and in front of you (in the notch) while you're crouching. Diagonally down and behind you also seems to work for some reason, of course the dtilt is still performed facing the same direction that you are.

Edit: if you're crawling backwards while you perform a dtilt and hold the backwards to continue to crawl that way, after the dtilt is over you will be turned around. This works with all characters that can crouch. You can be turned around standing too, or do an attack facing the other direction if you buffer it.

2nd Edit: Okay, so there was a whole footstool combo phase for a lot of characters. I didn't see Diddy getting a lot of use out of it, but I figured out a useful trick. Footstool to banana drop causes your opponent to trip and take 2% while you don't go very high and you can pick up your banana and let the comboing continue. I'm not sure if it can be blocked but the banana hits them very soon after you finish the footstool.

And more.. an interesting idea I had. B forward then jump to banana throw. This could be used during recovery, and also it can be used to do the footstool banana drop if you end up right next to them after the b forward (don't kick).
 

Le_THieN

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#33
Okay...

Doing a D-tilt while holding a banana: I've done this by accident...how? Its different from doing Smash attacks while holding bananas (Hold A + C-stick then release A).
Here's my original description from a couple of pages back:

What was even more interesting was my subsequent trip to training mode, where I played around with crawling a bit more. What I learned here was that you could not only crawl with bananas (duh), but you could also D-tilt with a banana in your hand. It’s relatively simple to execute: once you’re in crawling position with a banana in your hand, rotate the joystick slightly forward to initiate forward movement and then push the attack button. This either produce the effect of throwing the banana straight down (in which case you didn’t push forward enough), or a D-tilt with a banana still in your hand.
It's much easier to perform if you're already moving in one direction or the other. Even the direction you choose to move in is negligible since hitting the A-button or C-stick will always produce a D-tilt no matter which way you're facing.

And does anyone know if its possible to do something other than F-Smashes with bananas in hand?
I thought for awhile I was able to do a F-tilt out of the crouching position, but then I realized I was actually throwing the banana down every single time before I executed it. It would appear that F-smash is the only smash that can be executed, and that's kind of unfortunate because it has the longest start-up and cool-down of the three smashes. I'll take a mobile D-tilt with a banana in hand over this any day, especially since you can glide-toss out of crawls and get underneath Falco's reflector. =)
 

Vyse

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#34
I've been using the crawl approach, and it's been working against my bro's Falco.
We'll see how well it does tommorow when I vs some good Falco's though.

Hopefully I'll record some matches : ]
 

Le_THieN

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#35
I've been using the crawl approach, and it's been working against my bro's Falco.
We'll see how well it does tommorow when I vs some good Falco's though.

Hopefully I'll record some matches : ]
The cool thing is that once you crawl behind the reflector, you can still pummel away with bananas. I'm still working on disciplining my control technique over glide-tossing out of a crawl though; most of the time, I get overexcited at the fact that I'm even crawling underneath the reflector that I just end up D-tilting on accident. Free hits are cool, but I want to be able to maximize the punishment of a baited reflector every single time.
 

Overswarm

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#36
I thought I'd just let you guys know if you didn't already... dash attack to u-smash is a great combo but it quickly stops working after your opponent can DI the last hit of the dash attack. I've found it incredibly easy to just delay the dash attack and then dash backwards and u-smash (or grab depending on the situation). If you have a banana set up, you can often lead the late dash attack into a jab setup as well. Since the last hit of the dash attack is the only one with real knockback, you can do this at any %.
 

Nitrix

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#37
Could you guys give me some tips on handling Marth's aerials? His aerials always hurt me because I don't know how to really counter them. In I throw a banana the effects are pretty minimal and it isn't like I can go in the air and get him, right? Thanks
 
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#38
Shield then punish with a banana.

Glide toss backwards (throwing the banana forwards, Diddy sliding backwards).

I'm not sure but an upward angled Ftilt might hit a Marth who has his spacing off. If his spacing is good then this shouldn't work.
 

DanGR

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#39
Anyone wanna upload a small video for me? It was a funny hilarious four stock from back a while ago.
 

Vyse

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#40
I thought I'd just let you guys know if you didn't already... dash attack to u-smash is a great combo but it quickly stops working after your opponent can DI the last hit of the dash attack. I've found it incredibly easy to just delay the dash attack and then dash backwards and u-smash (or grab depending on the situation). If you have a banana set up, you can often lead the late dash attack into a jab setup as well. Since the last hit of the dash attack is the only one with real knockback, you can do this at any %.
Indeed.

We've found that depending on which hit becomes the last to connect with the opponent, it's possible to pop the opponent into the air, straight into a Fair or a Bair. This'll work even at relatively high percents.

Danke, Mr Overswarm :)
 
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