The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Blad01]

Top Tier :

1- MetaKnight
2- Snake
3- Mr. Game & Watch -


Very High Tier :
I know, this "Very High Tier" section is not big but... I felt like they were neither in Top Tier nor in High Tier.

4- King Dedede
5- Falco - I seriously hesitate with him and Wario... He is not so good at killing, and not as good as we thought initially at edgeguarding. And his Up B get owned easily (So does his Side B by good players)
6- Wario
7- ROB

High Tier :

8- Marth
9- Ice Climbers
10- Diddy Kong - I know. He's 10th. Seriously, look at his metagame. Furthermore, he's one of the very few that can have a good time against MK, in flat stages.
11- Lucario
12 - Donkey Kong
13 - Wolf
14- Pikachu
15 -Kirby
16- Zelda
17- Pit
18 - Toon Link

Middle :


19- Olimar
20 - Peach
21 - Luigi
22 - Ness
23 - Fox
24- Lucas
25 - Zero Suit Samus
26- Ike
27 - Mario
28- Samus
29 - Bowser
30 - Sheik

Low :


31- Sonic
32- Pokemon Trainer
33- Yoshi
34- Jigglypuff
35- Ganondorf
36- Link
37- Captain Falcon

The real tier list

 

[cman]

that tier list is wrong. ness is high tier and lucas is low tier

i suggest this alternative tier list

Top
Ice Climbers

The ice climbers' grab range is short enough that most characters can space effectively enough to not get grabbed. Because of that, the grabs are generally thought of as a "when the other person does something stupid" move. No one has a problem with people getting ***** after they make a mistake. Anyway, they aren't top because it is too hard to make use of the infinites.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

if you have to ban chars that aren't meant to be overpowered (shin akuma) then the competition suffers.
i think it's too soon to say he can't be beaten. but i don't really play brawl, so i don't matter.

P.S. the name "cman" made me laugh because i'm immature. lawl balls.

 

[Barge]

The ice climbers' grab range is short enough that most characters can space effectively enough to not get grabbed. Because of that, the grabs are generally thought of as a "when the other person does something stupid" move. No one has a problem with people getting ***** after they make a mistake. Anyway, they aren't top because it is too hard to make use of the infinites.

I think that is only because you use marth.

Marth has incredible spacing that only allows ice climbers to grab if you mess up.

With other characters, however, it is fairly easier even if they don't mess up

 

[Dokutayuu]

The top of the tier list is fine but I don't like the bottom. I personally think Captain Falcon is better than Ganondorf. CF may have low priority but most of Ganondorf's moves are scarily slow. His recovery's poor too.

 

[cman]

I think that is only because you use marth.

Marth has incredible spacing that only allows ice climbers to grab if you mess up.

With other characters, however, it is fairly easier even if they don't mess up

Well... yes, and yes. But i was under the impression that it was the same for all but a few characters as well. Who can't they reliably get?

 

[gantrain05]

Well... yes, and yes. But i was under the impression that it was the same for all but a few characters as well. Who can't they reliably get?

marth because of his great spacing game, peach because of her float game, zelda because of her instant smashes that have a huge range, and metaknight.....because he's metaknight.

 

[choknater]

cman semen too goodz

i think wario should go up a tier

 

[Famous]

that tier list is wrong. ness is high tier and lucas is low tier

i suggest this alternative tier list

God
Mario


Top
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Snake


Upper
Marth
Toon Link
King Dedede
Olimar

High
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Lucario
R.O.B.
Pikachu
Ness
Kirby

Middle
Wolf
Pit
Wario
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Ike
Zelda & Sheik

Low
Fox
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Lucas
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff

Bottom

Link
Samus
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon


Gay

Meta Knight

Fixed...

But seriously, you had Mario as Bottom tier so this list fails...

 

[choknater]

no

i honestly think link samus ganon and falcon do deserve their own bottom tier

 

[MyNameIsRyan]

no

i honestly think link samus ganon and falcon do deserve their own bottom tier

Hope that dosent happen

 

[Feocart]

Hope that dosent happen

I second this.

Though Samus is pretty bad, her fanbase is quite good. There have been occations where Samus has placed suprisingly high, just no wins in major tournaments.

Falcon, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Link, PT, it just seems there there's going to be a bottom for these characters. There are few characters that don't place very well, but IMO, have potential. Characters like Mario, Ness, and Link (yeah, they appear to suck, but Hylian proved Link could possibly beat Snake, but we're talking about Hylian, so....)

 

[Snowstalker]

BROKEN AS HELL:

Meta Knight

TOP:

King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake
Falco
Marth
Wario
R.O.B

HIGH:

Lucario
Olimar
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Pikachu
Wolf

MIDDLE:

Pit
Toon Link
Peach
Luigi
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Fox
Bowser
Sheik
Yoshi

LOW:

Pokemon Trainer
Lucas
Mario
Sonic
Ike
Samus
Jigglypuff

BOTTOM:

Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[Galanoth7395]

Isee that the low tier placements are just about as good as the middle tier placements. Really opens my eyes to how balanced the game is (pushing MK aside -.-).

But I have some serious issues with some of the placements.

Low Tier
Link

The tier list assumes the characters are placed at full potential, and at full potential Link can really kick butt. Just look at Aniki (I know links nerfed from melee but still).

Low Tier
Lucas
Ness

Ness and Lucas? Right next to each other? Lucas in Low Tier?????
1.) I must admit, Lucas is better than Ness, but right above him?
2.) Since when did Lucas deserve to be in the bottom tier? He's definitely better than Bowser (more on that next).

Middle Tier
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

What the... Bowser above Ike? What has the SBR been smoking? Sure he's got godly power, but Ike has power along with cheapness. I mean come on, one of the most overrated and overused characters in Brawl lower than Bowser?? And while I'm at it, Luigi, Peach and Sheik should be above Bowser too. Bowser should be at the bottom of Middle Tier.

High Tier
Lucario

Okay, I don't have "serious" issues with this one, but still.

__________________________________________________________________________


I know I didn't give much evidence on topics. But this is my very first post on Smashboards, so don't flame me and/or say I'm being paranoid about the tier list (yes, I know about March 31, 2004).

A few questions though...
Where did the original idea for tiers come from? I've seen posts from people saying that SSB is about the skill of the player, not the character. If so, why are we bothering making a tier list? Why influence people's decisions on who to main? I'm just saying, it just sounds ironic, especially when SBR mods say that.
Why do the amount/names of tiers constantly change? I've looked at previous tier lists, and some have Upper Tier, some have 4 tiers (like this one), and some even have 6 tiers! Just a thought.

__________________________________________________________________________


Whew, that was a big one... anyways, hello Smashboards!

 

[PKNintendo]

Isee that the low tier placements are just about as good as the middle tier placements. Really opens my eyes to how balanced the game is (pushing MK aside -.-).

But I have some serious issues with some of the placements.

Low Tier
Link

The tier list assumes the characters are placed at full potential, and at full potential Link can really kick butt. Just look at Aniki (I know links nerfed from melee but still).

Low Tier
Lucas
Ness

Ness and Lucas? Right next to each other? Lucas in Low Tier?????
1.) I must admit, Lucas is better than Ness, but right above him?
2.) Since when did Lucas deserve to be in the bottom tier? He's definitely better than Bowser (more on that next).

Middle Tier
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

What the... Bowser above Ike? What has the SBR been smoking? Sure he's got godly power, but Ike has power along with cheapness. I mean come on, one of the most overrated and overused characters in Brawl lower than Bowser?? And while I'm at it, Luigi, Peach and Sheik should be above Bowser too. Bowser should be at the bottom of Middle Tier.

High Tier
Lucario

Okay, I don't have "serious" issues with this one, but still.

__________________________________________________________________________


I know I didn't give much evidence on topics. But this is my very first post on Smashboards, so don't flame me and/or say I'm being paranoid about the tier list (yes, I know about March 31, 2004).

A few questions though...
Where did the original idea for tiers come from? I've seen posts from people saying that SSB is about the skill of the player, not the character. If so, why are we bothering making a tier list? Why influence people's decisions on who to main? I'm just saying, it just sounds ironic, especially when SBR mods say that.
Why do the amount/names of tiers constantly change? I've looked at previous tier lists, and some have Upper Tier, some have 4 tiers (like this one), and some even have 6 tiers! Just a thought.

__________________________________________________________________________


Whew, that was a big one... anyways, hello Smashboards!

Read before posting. Too many factors keep Ness and Lucas down... But Ness is a clearly better character. Better matchups by far, better moveset e.c.t

 

[Scott!]

I'm no pro, so take this for what it's worth. First off, in all smash games, and all fighting games, all characters are not created equal. No matter how hard you try to balance them, some will end up being better, whether just by their nature, like speed or strength, or something overlooked, like chaingrabs. Anyway, it's a human tendency to rank things. Hence, the idea of tiers. The point isn't to tell people who to main. It's simply to determine which characters are best in the singles tournament setting, using the input of the best players (the SBR).

The types of tiers change for pretty much the same reason that the tier list itself changes. The metagame constantly evolves. New tactics are found, characters rise and fade, and things need re-evaluation. Thus, the tier list is updated when the SBR feels it's time. The different tiers reflect points where the SBR see clear, or at least clearer, gaps between overall character goodness. As the metagame evolves, and the list changes, things must be re-evaluated. This one has 4 sections because the SBR feels that those are the best places to break it up. There aren't rules like "Each tier must have 7 characters" or "There must be 5 tiers" or the like. The system is intentionally fluid so metagame changes can be accounted for.

Again, this is all just the observations of a non-pro observer. Take it as that, and if something's horribly wrong with my logic, please don't kill me.

Oh, and welcome!

 

[Serph]

The top of the tier list is fine but I don't like the bottom. I personally think Captain Falcon is better than Ganondorf. CF may have low priority but most of Ganondorf's moves are scarily slow. His recovery's poor too.

I happen to think this is a common misconception with Ganondorf. Aside from Warlock Punch and the exploding axe kick none of his moves really strike me as being "scarily slow". On the contrary, he has a fast neutral A, a quick (and powerful) dash attack, his forward and down tilts are quite fast, and obviously Wizard Kick and Flame Choke are zippy. He also has three quick aerial attacks (neutral, up and back).

No matter where he falls in future tier lists, I'll always defend Ganondorf vs. Captain Falcon. I just think you always have a chance with Ganon since he can pick a kill move from pretty much every attack in his repertoire.

 

[Galanoth7395]

Read before posting. Too many factors keep Ness and Lucas down... But Ness is a clearly better character. Better matchups by far, better moveset e.c.t

Wow! I've always wanted to think Ness was better, but I really thought Lucas was. And now a Smash Lord says Ness is better? Awesome! I think Ness is not good against lighter characters, but he's hell against heavier characters. Lucas, on the other hand, is way faster (fast forward smash comes to mind), has a tether recovery (not to mention a better, in my opinion, PKT), and is a good character even for beginners. But enough about Lucas; let's talk Ness. Ness is a powerful character, and can easily combo. His B moves have high priority in his technique and, with practice, can be an excellent character. But Ness takes time and patience to master, that's why I thought Lucas was better. And Ness isn't "clearly" a better character, maybe a bit better, but the SBR works hard and has deep discussion about these tier lists, and they put Lucas above Ness. So there.

P.S. I'd still like some answers to my questions .

 

[Dr.Jo2229]

Ness and Lucas? Right next to each other? Lucas in Low Tier?????
1.) I must admit, Lucas is better than Ness, but right above him?
2.) Since when did Lucas deserve to be in the bottom tier? He's definitely better than Bowser (more on that next).

Sorry for the noobish question but can anybody explain me the point of tiers?if a player is good with a low tier character i think he can even beat top tiers dont you think?

 

[Wak]

Sorry for the noobish question but can anybody explain me the point of tiers?if a player is good with a low tier character i think he can even beat top tiers dont you think?

What you have to get is the more down the character is in the tier list, the less chances he has to win a match. That is regardless the player.

 

[Bowser King]

Middle Tier
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

What the... Bowser above Ike? What has the SBR been smoking? Sure he's got godly power, but Ike has power along with cheapness. I mean come on, one of the most overrated and overused characters in Brawl lower than Bowser?? And while I'm at it, Luigi, Peach and Sheik should be above Bowser too. Bowser should be at the bottom of Middle Tier.

High Tier
Lucario

Okay, I don't have "serious" issues with this one, but still.

Have you ever played as bowser? He can fair and ftilt you like crazy and they come out faster then any of your moves. Flamethrower eats through ike and it and VB edgehog/guard ike extremely well. Plus he can CG you, if you ground release he can easily use fair. When your using your moves like jabs and ftilt he can ^b OoS to **** you.

Lucario is also a very good character. He can rack damage easy and his aura makes him deadly even when he's about to die. Lucario is a definite high tier.



@Dr.Jo

Some characters are just better then others. It's something that you can't deny even if your extremly good with one character. Someone who uses MK already has the advantage against characters in low tier (not counting yoshi) and most of mid tier (there are some exceptions) (heck, he has advantage on almost every tier). Though skill can change this, if both players were equally skilled, the player playing a higher up char gains an advantage which could cause a win. Now matchups can influence things and sometimes luck but most of the time the tier list plays a factor in which char ranks better then the other.

Welcome to smashboards

-Bowser King

 

[Wak]

edit .

 

[Dr.Jo2229]

Welcome to smashboards

-Bowser King

Thanks dude couldnt have said that better bowser rules.

let me see if I understood so if me and my friend are equally skilled and he uses meta knight and he uses bowser he would have more chances to win than me?

 

[cutter]

ness's special moves are better (esp pk thunder which is the best move in the game)

ice climbers are obviously the best though. they have several zero to death grab combos that you cant escape from.

lolololololololololol

Come on, you can't be serious, can you?

 

[Galanoth7395]

I'm no pro, so take this for what it's worth. First off, in all smash games, and all fighting games, all characters are not created equal. No matter how hard you try to balance them, some will end up being better, whether just by their nature, like speed or strength, or something overlooked, like chaingrabs. Anyway, it's a human tendency to rank things. Hence, the idea of tiers. The point isn't to tell people who to main. It's simply to determine which characters are best in the singles tournament setting, using the input of the best players (the SBR).

The types of tiers change for pretty much the same reason that the tier list itself changes. The metagame constantly evolves. New tactics are found, characters rise and fade, and things need re-evaluation. Thus, the tier list is updated when the SBR feels it's time. The different tiers reflect points where the SBR see clear, or at least clearer, gaps between overall character goodness. As the metagame evolves, and the list changes, things must be re-evaluated. This one has 4 sections because the SBR feels that those are the best places to break it up. There aren't rules like "Each tier must have 7 characters" or "There must be 5 tiers" or the like. The system is intentionally fluid so metagame changes can be accounted for.

Again, this is all just the observations of a non-pro observer. Take it as that, and if something's horribly wrong with my logic, please don't kill me.

Oh, and welcome!

OOPS!!!!!!!!!!!! Very sorry, scott! I really didnt read your post! After I submitted my post, I scrolled down, and it was then I read it. I hope you aren't flaming me as a type these words. Anyways, heres my response to your modest opinions.

First off, in all smash games, and all fighting games, all characters are not created equal. No matter how hard you try to balance them, some will end up being better, whether just by their nature, like speed or strength, or something overlooked, like chaingrabs.

I know that, and I totally agree. Unless everyone in the game's a clone, balancing is logically impossible.

Anyway, it's a human tendency to rank things. Hence, the idea of tiers.

You're partly correct. Partly. It's the human nature to have bias, not to rank. I'd like a more specific answer.

The point isn't to tell people who to main. It's simply to determine which characters are best in the singles tournament setting, using the input of the best players (the SBR).

First off, take another look at my first post:

Why influence people's decisions on who to main?

I didn't say "y r u telling ppl who to main u stupid noobs", I said why influence peoples decisions. Just wanted to clear that up. Also, you say the tier list is supposed to determine the best characters in single tournaments. So all this time, I thought the tier list referred to all players... guess I was wrong.

The types of tiers change for pretty much the same reason that the tier list itself changes. The metagame constantly evolves. New tactics are found, characters rise and fade, and things need re-evaluation. Thus, the tier list is updated when the SBR feels it's time. The different tiers reflect points where the SBR see clear, or at least clearer, gaps between overall character goodness. As the metagame evolves, and the list changes, things must be re-evaluated. This one has 4 sections because the SBR feels that those are the best places to break it up. There aren't rules like "Each tier must have 7 characters" or "There must be 5 tiers" or the like. The system is intentionally fluid so metagame changes can be accounted for.

Nice response. Must have tooken a while for you to cook that up. One thing though: screw the metagame! I'll use the moves I want to use, thank you very much, n00b!!!!!! Screw YOU!
lol, jk

Anyways, thanks for the well thought response. ^.^ Believe it or not, I actually tried not to flame, but it seems I did anyways . Sorry! Again, thanks.

 

[Galanoth7395]

Have you ever played as bowser? He can fair and ftilt you like crazy and they come out faster then any of your moves. Flamethrower eats through ike and it and VB edgehog/guard
ike extremely well. Plus he can CG you, if you ground release he can easily use fair. When your using your moves like jabs and ftilt he can ^b OoS to **** you.

Lucario is also a very good character. He can rack damage easy and his aura makes him deadly even when he's about to die. Lucario is a definite high tier.

I'm and all-around guy, as you might see from my signature. And in my previous post, I said that everyone has bias. Against Bowser, I use Ness, and I almost always win. Why? Because he's so big, and so easy to combo ^.^

Now, I never really said Bowser sucked. All I said was Ike was better, in general. One time, we went to a hotel where, for the first and only time ever, I got internet connectivity on my Wii. On there, I never really went up against a decent Bowser (pretty much all I see is people spamming Marth's counter... not really, but you get my point.) And the Bowser CPU isn't exactly the best. I've simply never gone up against a decent Bowser. So that's why I thought Ike was better.

As for Lucario, I know he's good. Just... 3rd from the top of high tier? I simply thought that was a bit high.

Anyways, it's nice to have a decent Bowser player answer my first post. Thanks!

Oh yeah, and I have some issues concerning Pokemon Trainer's placement. Input please!

 

[Dr.Jo2229]

Have you ever played as bowser? He can fair and ftilt you like crazy and they come out faster then any of your moves. Flamethrower eats through ike and it and VB edgehog/guard
ike extremely well. Plus he can CG you, if you ground release he can easily use fair. When your using your moves like jabs and ftilt he can ^b OoS to **** you.

Can you explain me those techniques please??:CG and ground releasing and wahts VB edgehof/guard

I expected Ike to be in the top tiers beacuse i...just see him overpowered he has fast and godly knockback attacks 2 of his special moves have super armor and his down smash hits both sides two times very quickly his Fsmash has 18oº hit and all his attacks can kill you..in few words i hate ike xD just jk.

 

[Bowser King]

Thanks dude couldnt have said that better bowser rules

let me see if I understood so if me and my friend are equally skilled and he uses meta knight and I uses bowser he would have more chances to win than me?

Yes he would have a slight advantage. Bowser is one of the exceptions I mentioned. He can do fairly well against MK (check the bowser boards, we recently just discussed him).

@jo
Ike has great range and power but he's slow and his moves take long to come out (other then his jabs). That keeps him from becoming higher up on the tier list.

...and if you want to learn those terms visit the bowser boards

-Bowser King

 

[MysticKenji]

You are delusional.
Ike is in no way top tier or good.

 

[snowaxe]

I think later on Ness and Lucas might move to bottom mid. Hopefully anyway.

 

[Galanoth7395]

You are delusional.
Ike is in no way top tier or good.

I never dreamed I'd hear that from a Smash Master... shocking...
Why on God's green earth would you say Ike sucks?!?!??!?!?

 

[Dr.Jo2229]

Ike does not suck...he is really good too good in my opinion.maybe he said that beacuse he has found a way to counter ike with any character in any time...after all he is a smash master but ike has got a lot of killing moves...almost all of them he even has counter wich makes him even more anoying and his attacks cause a huge knockback his neutral A combo deals 16% damage...always its a monster.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Hey look I can do it too!

Sonic is top tier because he has one of the best recoveries in the game, he actually has combos, great at damage racking. His dsmash hits twice and he's got a brilliant offstage game.


What you've done, and I've done just there, is completely neglect the character flaws.

Ike can't deal with projectiles, and is really unsafe offstage. Laggy attacks if they're used wrongly etc.

 

[Justblaze647]

I <3 Sonic's d-smash!

 

[Setrack]

ness is high tier and lucas is low tier.

 

[dekushrub]

The real tier list

I agree with that tier list, the one on smash wiki is terrible

 

[gantrain05]

>.> i just beat ikes *** with olimar <.< i don't see what other people see i guess, i've never ever had problems with ike, other than his jabs and his Nair, the rest of his moveset is just....meh, even my lucas ***** ike and he's like my 7th or 8th main lol.

 

[PKNintendo]

You know what I hate, people who make look bad.

Setrack and Galanoth, STOP SAYING BULL****!

I love Ness as much as the next guy. (Ness>>>Lucas O.K.)
But Ness is no way better than Bowser.

Ness is bottom of mid. MAYBE.
Please excuse the err brash Ness mains.

 

[Bowser King]

I never dreamed I'd hear that from a Smash Master... shocking...
Why on God's green earth would you say Ike sucks?!?!??!?!?

Ike does not suck...he is really good too good in my opinion.maybe he said that beacuse he has found a way to counter ike with any character in any time...after all he is a smash master but ike has got a lot of killing moves...almost all of them he even has counter wich makes him even more anoying and his attacks cause a huge knockback his neutral A combo deals 16% damage...always its a monster.

Ike isn't very good. His recovery is easy to gimp. His smashes are extremely obvious (though ike does have a lot of opportunities to kill with his long range). You can projectile spam him all day and he'd still have trouble reaching you. His aerial game has some good moves but even chars like ganon have faster moves in the air. Nair is decent but when your near the edge and get knocked of while trying to use jabs, your dead.

Overall Ike is far from amazing.

-Bowser King

 

[studly]

there are literally like 4 conversations going on at once....

anyway... since we're all ignoring diadvantages... i say we make falcon top tier