The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Sir Bedevere]

Not to mention that the best character out of PT, Squirtle, has the second worst air release next to Wario. Several characters CG him from a grab to either a spike or a powerful aerial offstage that almost always leads to his death. Poor guy.

watchu tolkin bout son

The best character in PT is Rock Smash. :D

EDIT: ...Did I just waste my 900th post making lame Rock Smash jokes? <_>

lol great

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oi. PT isn't hopeless, but defiantly not mid-tier material. No matter how good people get with PT, the forced switch-out and fatigue system is just hurting him too badly. Best he can get is top 3 in the low tier.

As for the Ivysaur comment: Olimar has the same problem, it's arguably the biggest reason he's not higher. It hurts when your recovery is as bad as Ivy's/Olimar's/Link's. A lot. You can attempt to work around it all you want, it still comes down to the fact Ivysaur is one of the easiest characters to gimp in the game. I'd personally say second easiest after Link, Olimar has better movement to help him a bit.

Squirtle's Dthrow is good when he's first out, but as the match grows on, that kill move becomes less and less reliable. It's far from "guaranteed".

Charizard is the best out of the three when considering the fatigue system (Squirtle being the best without the fatigue system) as far as I can tell. He's the one with the least difficulty KOing later on, but he still has his issues.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Forced switch out and fatique make pokemon trainer bad, along with mediocre matchups

You learn not to mind a forced switch on KO after you get good with all three. Usually, if you're in the lead, you can switch to the biggest liability when you KO first and have that Pokemon get KO'd on your first stock, and you should be able to land a KO move with your liability if you end up dying before your opponent. If they're not in killing percentage, then you need to step your game up in the first place. D:

And most of PT's matchups are close to even, really. Once again, I don't know any character that completely destroys all three, save for maybe Marth, and even then, I think it's only a soft counter on at least two of the Pokemon.

Not to mention that the best character out of PT, Squirtle, has the second worst air release next to Wario. Several characters CG him from a grab to either a spike or a powerful aerial offstage that almost always leads to his death. Poor guy.

But Squirtle also has aerial mobility that is close to Wario's, and because of Wario's aerial mobility, the good ones don't get grabbed. That should apply to Squirtle as well, to a fair degree. Not to mention, the chaingrabs usually don't do more than 10% damage, even on stages like Final Destination...and unless the positioning is perfect, or the stage is dumb, you should be able to reliably tech such spikes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

PT is NOT a bad character. I hate how people are just like "Lul Ivysaur dies instantly every match oops ledgehog". This. Is. Not. The. Case.
1. Ivysaur has ways around this, and on-stage, he is a solid character.
2. Squirtle is an exceptional character, with great aerials, good locks, fast attacks, and a guaranteed throw kill.
3. Charizard has the best grab range in the game, hard-hitting attacks, a hard-to-punish recovery, multiple kill moves, and a great grab game.

Low-Mid Tier AT LEAST. I'd say Mid Mid Tier.

1. olimar has ways around getting gimped. that doesnt mean his recovery isnt garbage, or that its not a MAJOR detriment, same goes for ivysuar.

2. i wouldnt call him exceptional... his airial are good and fast, but his size takes away from their effectiveness. and isnt the throw kill pretty high damage? like 150s or so? thats pretty high for it to be guaranteed.

3. tethers have a better grab range. and im sorry, but i dont see what makes chars. actual throws good...

they are good but all in all it still seems to be a bad character...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

2. i wouldnt call him exceptional... his airial are good and fast, but his size takes away from their effectiveness. and isnt the throw kill pretty high damage? like 150s or so? thats pretty high for it to be guaranteed.

3. tethers have a better grab range. and im sorry, but i dont see what makes chars. actual throws good...

they are good but all in all it still seems to be a bad character...

Wario is short and has less range than Squirtle overall, and he has arguably the best aerial game in the...game.

Tethers have better range, but their utility for actual grabbing tends to be very bad. If they whiff, they're taking something serious.

I don't really care to argue each Pokemon's effectiveness individually, but fatigue should only really play out when you're already dominating with a single Pokemon (Who cares if it takes 30% more to KO if the opponent can't hit you anyway?) or if the match is ridiculously drawn-out. Since Squirtle is a combo machine and Charizard is a gimping machine, that tends to only happen regularly (and I use that term very loosely, as I hardly ever have it happen in matches unless I consciously leave my Pokemon out) to Ivysaur, and since most of Ivysaur's moves are made for outspacing the opponent, you don't mind it much.

Plus, Squirtle D-Throw, Ivysaur B-Throw, and Charizard D-Throw (to an extent; that's mostly depending on the character) are pretty much free switches if you need them, if the opponent has at least a little damage on them.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

The fatigue system is really overrated. Their are ways of avoiding the full effects of it people.
The forced switch out is the same thing, You can Down B. All you probaly get is 20% damage, at the trade off of better matchups.

 

[Barge]

The fatigue system is really overrated. Their are ways of avoiding the full effects of it people.
The forced switch out is the same thing, You can Down B. All you probaly get is 20% damage, at the trade off of better matchups.

Lol, okay, 20% can cost you the match, making them suck.

 

[M.K]

Lol, okay, 20% can cost you the match, making them suck.

Lol, okay, you wouldn't switch when the opponent has a chance to come back and punish you for it, and if you did, that would make you suck.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Lol, okay, 20% can cost you the match, making them suck.

You learn not to mind a forced switch on KO after you get good with all three. Usually, if you're in the lead, you can switch to the biggest liability when you KO first and have that Pokemon get KO'd on your first stock, and you should be able to land a KO move with your liability if you end up dying before your opponent. If they're not in killing percentage, then you need to step your game up in the first place. D:

Just saying.

 

[Steeler]

i don't see how a smash attack at 0% will cost you the match.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

20% doesn't decide the match completely,It can be a factor but they all can rack up damage quick to compensate.

I would not advise Down B against Falco or your main Barge :D, you know what happens.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Snake can easily do something like Ftilt you if you switch, which will leave him enough time to set up his field control/improve it. IC/Falco/D3 Can chaingrab you. If it's Squirtle, almost anyone can start a grab release chain grab to a walk-off attack, as long as they are at least as fast as Ike. And if it's a stage with a walk-off (Delfino, Castle Siege, Mario Circuit, etc), that could be a stock right there.

EDIT: Curse my slow typing in agreeing with Barge

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Snake can easily do something like Ftilt you if you switch, which will leave him enough time to set up his field control/improve it. IC/Falco/D3 Can chaingrab you. If it's Squirtle, almost anyone can start a grab release chain grab to a walk-off attack, as long as they are at least as fast as Ike. And if it's a stage with a walk-off (Delfino, Castle Siege, Mario Circuit, etc), that could be a stock right there.

EDIT: Curse my slow typing in agreeing with Barge

I said to only switch to avoid hopeless match ups.

All pokemon do fairly well against those 3 characters, they may be at a disadvantage, but not worth to switch on them.

I meant something along the lines of switching Ivy against Metaknight.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Snake can easily do something like Ftilt you if you switch, which will leave him enough time to set up his field control/improve it. IC/Falco/D3 Can chaingrab you. If it's Squirtle, almost anyone can start a grab release chain grab to a walk-off attack, as long as they are at least as fast as Ike. And if it's a stage with a walk-off (Delfino, Castle Siege, Mario Circuit, etc), that could be a stock right there.

EDIT: Curse my slow typing in agreeing with Barge

PT sucks because you can deliberately let Ice Climbers Chaingrab you?

I agree. This is a crippling factor in the metagame for any character, no wait, EVERY character!

:S

 

[Jigglymaster]

Lol, okay, you wouldn't switch when the opponent has a chance to come back and punish you for it, and if you did, that would make you suck.

PT only has 1 projectile and its mediocre. Your not going to get many chances to switch w/o being hit.

Also whoever says Falcon or Link is better than Jigglypuff is plain ********.

Jigglypuff vs Link vs Falcon

Best to Worst
Speed: Jigglypuf(Because of her aerial Mobility), Falcon, Link
Recovery: Jigglypuff, Falcon, Link
Killing Power: Jigglypuff, Link, Falcon
Gimping Ability: Jigglypuff, Falcon/Link

Jigglypuff will be out of bottom tier next tier list and the bottom tier will be this.

PT
Ganon
Link
Falcon

Also Ike is not low tier. I've seen him in low tier tourneys and he can maul just about everyone.

 

[Frown]

Killing Power: Jigglypuff, Link, Falcon

Well... no. What good kill options does Jiggz have? Forward air and...

 

[Xiahou Dun]

You are obviously an unbiased source huh?

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

PT only has 1 projectile and its mediocre. Your not going to get many chances to switch w/o being hit.

Also whoever says Falcon or Link is better than Jigglypuff is plain ********.

Jigglypuff vs Link vs Falcon

Best to Worst
Speed: Jigglypuf(Because of her aerial Mobility), Falcon, Link
Recovery: Jigglypuff, Falcon, Link
Killing Power: Jigglypuff, Link, Falcon
Gimping Ability: Jigglypuff, Falcon/Link

Jigglypuff will be out of bottom tier next tier list and the bottom tier will be this.

PT
Ganon
Link
Falcon

Also Ike is not low tier. I've seen him in low tier tourneys and he can maul just about everyone.

There are ways to safely switch. They can grab and throw. They all have means of rackin dmg to utilize it too.

Jigglypuff owns Falcon, but link owns onstage.

I agree on ike being not low tier. Spacing and jabs say hi.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff is really bad.

I love how the "great metagame growth" on Jiggly is "how to plank efficiently."

 

[Jigglymaster]

Well... no. What good kill options does Jiggz have? Forward air and...

Fair, Rollout, Dash Attack, Gimping, and Rest.

Dash attack can kill at 120%.

 

[Steeler]

Snake can easily do something like Ftilt you if you switch, which will leave him enough time to set up his field control/improve it. IC/Falco/D3 Can chaingrab you. If it's Squirtle, almost anyone can start a grab release chain grab to a walk-off attack, as long as they are at least as fast as Ike. And if it's a stage with a walk-off (Delfino, Castle Siege, Mario Circuit, etc), that could be a stock right there.

EDIT: Curse my slow typing in agreeing with Barge

lol

you have this backwards

why would i have charizard come out for the next stock, and switch in squirtle at 0% knowing that my opponent can deathgrab me? charizard doesn't have a single matchup that would warrant an immediate switch.

ironically, switching immediately is so that you can PREVENT that sort of thing from happening, ie squirtle to ivysaur.

often, this isn't even necessary if the pt switches the bad matchup in near the end of the previous pokemon's stock or after the opponent loses their stock.

this is sort of a last resort to avoid a matchup at all costs, and i see it as an option. having options is always good.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fair, Rollout, Dash Attack, Gimping, and Rest.

Dash attack can kill at 120%.

Rollout doesn't hit intelligent players.

Dash attack will leave you open if shielded, and it would only kill at 120% on someone with a bad recovery and bad DI, or another Jigglypuff.

Falcon has pretty decent gimping ability, too, with his U-Air shenanigans.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Falcon also now has a true combo into Falcon Punch at KOing %s, among other things, thanks to the find of Bair lock.

Bair lock -> Force get up -> Falcon Paunch. Works well into the KOing range.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

OMG. I just looked at that. It's amazing. Since you can follow it into almost anything Falcon has a 0 to death? Well on anyone he kills at 51 percent.

That would mean Falcon has a 0 to death on MK? O.o

 

[Collective of Bears]

I knew Falcon wasn't gonna be last forever.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

In theory. Right now its tricky to set up in a real match I would imagine. Knee is looking into set ups right now.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Rollout doesn't hit intelligent players.

Yes it does, Intelligent players won't be hit by rollout spam. But they do get hit by rollout when you use it at the right time. I've hit many good players with rollout so don't tell me it isn't a viable killing move.

And about the dash attack. Every move in this game is punished some way. What makes Falcon's Knee any better than jiggs' dash attack when it comes to missing.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Hmmm... I'm going to look into landing Sonics sourspot Bair into an Fsmash..........

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes it does, Intelligent players won't be hit by rollout spam. But they do get hit by rollout when you use it at the right time. I've hit many good players with rollout so don't tell me it isn't a viable killing move.

I'm still under the impression that it is not a viable killing move, unless there is no edge to grab, which would be a ridiculous counterpick to begin with. If an opponent doesn't spaz out, it won't hit because you can't go anywhere but back and forward.

Maybe as a recovery move, but I can't imagine it landing any other way.

 

[Ninjaneos]

meh, still needs some work on the list

 

[Jigglymaster]

I'm still under the impression that it is not a viable killing move, unless there is no edge to grab, which would be a ridiculous counterpick to begin with. If an opponent doesn't spaz out, it won't hit because you can't go anywhere but back and forward.

Maybe as a recovery move, but I can't imagine it landing any other way.

You can hit them with rollout when they can miss a tech.

 

[Zeallyx]

all info on falcons Bair lock>forced standup, here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224966

All we (falcons) need now is a good way to set us up for this.
I am currently making a list of percentages on wich characters fall on a platform above falcon (if any) immediatly after a Fthrow/Dash attack. This will make it more likely for the opponent to miss a tech, and for us to Bair/Uair lock them into a knee or falcon punch.

 

[Deathcarter]

Link and Samus are the two worst characters in the game. There is no denying it. All of the other candidates for bottom tier have one good thing about them:

Ganondorf: He can keep up with all of the other characters in damage racking. All he needs are 3-4 hits and 5 out of the best 8 characters are already in killing percentage. He has trouble getting those hits, but 4 out of those 5 characters I mentioned cannot even play an excessive defensive game against Ganon provided he gets a lead.

Jigglypuff: An escape from all combos, edgeguarding, a fair that is better than every low tier's A move, aerial or ground, and a decent match against Meta Knight and DDD.

Captain Falcon: Uair, better than Samus/Link's entire movesets. Seriously, I don't know much about Falcon, but I beleive he is better than those two.

 

[Vorguen]

Falcon's U-air is not very good. His entire moveset is pretty terrible. Even if his U-air was pretty good, try winning a fight with only that move. Link is very versatile, and would actually be half decent if his recovery was good. Samus can camp pretty well also, and has the most ranged aerial in the game.

 

[Napilopez]

I suppose I'm uber biased or something, but I think people underestimate the value of running speed. Falcon has that, and some coolio run trixies. I don't think falcon is that bad. I don't think you cant really work arounds links bad recovery. Against most decent players on a regular, link going offstage = death, especially against the top tier characters. Ganon I think at least can actually take control of the match for a bit, and that accounts for something. I don't know how to place Link/Falcon/Ganon/Samus/Jiggs though.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I suppose I'm uber biased or something, but I think people underestimate the value of running speed. Falcon has that, and some coolio run trixies. I don't think falcon is that bad. I don't think you cant really work arounds links bad recovery. Against most decent players on a regular, link going offstage = death, especially against the top tier characters. Ganon I think at least can actually take control of the match for a bit, and that accounts for something. I don't know how to place Link/Falcon/Ganon/Samus/Jiggs though.

I know for one thing to not underestimate it as it frequently messes me up when I play sonics online. Tiny bits of lag turn what would have been a powershielded hit into you getting hit. Putting wifi aside...

Running speed in brawl isn't all that great as people can still react to that. Plus, running limits you to only a few moves. Little mixing up and prediction is easier. So it's not something that should be solely relied upon.

 

[Yonder]

Tier list:

Win tier:

1. Meta (Meat) Knight (He's staying here.)

Top tier:

2. Snake (He's staying here to, maybe)

3. Game and Watch (Falco is above him in the current list, but I think he's sorta tied with Falco.)

4. Falco (Lazer games)

5. King DDD (Weight, projectiles, infinites/chaingrabs, range, aerials, grabs etc.)

6. Wario (A rather mobile character in the air, that fat slob, oh the irony. Also does alot of other things above average. Sucks about the infinites on him, but he's just so hard to grab!)

7. Diddy Kong (Banana games, aerial game, a great character)

8. Marth (May move higher, her sword's deadly)

High tier:

9. Olimar (Top if if wasn't for, you guessed it: The bad recovery.)

10. Kirby

11. Lucario

12. ROB ( A nice recovery, but his game feels a bit clunky, still a great character)

13. Ice Climbers (Probably top tier if it wasn't for easily killable Nana, strategies will soon be discovered to separate them even easier. Careful of their evil grab game...)

14. Donkey Kong (Vertical recovery= 0. Also horribly infinited by tourney common DDD.)

15. Zero Suit Samus (A tough to use but high reward character)

16. Pikachu (I'm not 100% sure on what so special about him, but still above average and has that nasty D throw thing)

17. Toon Link (I hate him as a character wise, but gameplay wise, he's good.

Middle Tier:

18. Pit (Day one I got Brawl, I thought he was the best. Boy was I wrong. He's sorta average sides from his decent recovery and good projectile game)

19. Wolf ( An odd style compared to the other two, but a good style too. Bleh recovery)

20. Luigi (An underrated character, but not too underrated. Fast and powerful killing moves along with aerials, terrible approach, infinited by DDD, Predictabily, and gimpability all hurt him.)

21. Peach (I sure miss her Melee counterpart...)

22. Zelda ( A character somewhat of extremities, surpassing Sheik and usable in this game. Gotta love Din's fire)

23. Bowser (He's not that bad, he's just so easy to combo...He has nice grab releases))

24. Fox (Fox seems rather good at first glance, but his problem is that he's usually OWNED by a certain move in some character's arsenal, taking his damage meter up high. Eg, Pikachu's D throw, Luigi's and Mario's Up tilt. A still usable character though)

25. Sheik (Speed, can't kill, gimping, can't kill, F tilt lock, can't kill...)

26. Mario (Unplayed and underrated, Mario is still middle tier, but not by much. Most of his game is below average asides from his gimping game, and with the auto sweet spot edge grabs and good recoveries in Brawl, that hurts him.)

27. Yoshi (Slighly underrated, Yoshi doesn't seem all that bad, but not nearly as good as some other characters. His top tier matchups are pretty nice, despite some people overrating is Meta Knight matchup due to his chaingrab on him.)

28. Ike ( A below average character one on one, but has few quick moves and easy to mess up recovery. Better start hoping for tripping Ike mains. He's pretty decent on teams though. At least he also has jabs and spacing, so he can manage.)

Steak Tier:

29. Sonic (The speedy hedgehog lacks killing, but his spring and spindash games make him an almost average character.)

Low tier:

30. Ness

31. Pokemon Trainer ( Reflex really gives me confidence in this character. Sucks about the stamina and shifting part though.)

32. Lucas( I dunno, I used to seondary him, I feel like i'm underrating him slightly, but everyone above is indeed better.)

Bottom Tier:

33. Samus (A train wreak from Melee, Samus is one I don't see much in, may drop below Link, no lower though. Averaged out to be the 2nd worst Smash character in all three games.)

34. Link (BAD RECOVERY. Also clunky and slow, but with a interesting projectile game that saves him a bit. Poor guy, he's averaged out to be the all time worst consistant smash character, low tier in all three games!)

35. Ganondorf (Slow, slow, slow. But has great power, and some decent tech stuff. Way better in Melee)

36. Jigglypuff (Went from a good puffball to a bad one. It even lost the headband . Few moves reedeem it, but it's aerial game can work wonders sometimes. Also annoying nerf of rest and sing is dead useless.) May move up slightly due to F-air, and can escape combos?

37. Captain Falcon (What has happen to our good captain?)



Go crazy flaming this I guess. Or use the proper term "constructive critisism" lol.

 

[thekingsdinner666]

Lucas can go from one side of Final Destination to the other from the bottom if he uses PK slide. He can also jump recover super high with the PK Fire glitch. Why is he so low on the tier list?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Lucas can go from one side of Final Destination to the other from the bottom if he uses PK slide. He can also jump recover super high with the PK Fire glitch. Why is he so low on the tier list?

Because being able to go around Final Destination doesn't make you a good character. 40 frame grab release is a pain, and his aerials are mostly situational. Plus, he's generally slow, and doesn't have much representation in tournaments.

 

[Tenki]

@running discussion:
Running speed gives faster characters more chances to punish moves, gives the opponent less time to commit to a defensive reaction (whether it's retreating aerial, grab, dodge, roll, what have you). It slightly affects matchups, but isn't as important as what goes on when the characters are actually close range and pitting moves against each other.

Also, most slower characters can do things like pivot grab a spotdodge (lol Sonic can't, he has to stall those 10-20 frames before he grabs). Ike and Snake, noticeably.

Captain Falcon: Uair, better than Samus/Link's entire movesets. Seriously, I don't know much about Falcon, but I beleive he is better than those two.

waait.

You can't make judgements on characters, for good or for worse, based off pure conjecture like that. You admit it yourself, you don't know much about -

oh wait.

everyone does that, lol.

Even SBR-B members have admitted to not knowing too much about the supposed lower tiered characters, which is why everyone seems to argue about those. I mean, it's like that for pretty much any tier list.

So, Deathcarter, tell us about Samus' spaced Z-airs in conjunction with her missile game and near-lagless aerials, Link's defensive bomb > aerial and Z-air movements/on-stage spacing game, compared to the other 'low tiered characters' that are better than them.


Part of the issue is that pretty much none of the worst characters are as bad as they seem to people who aren't familiar with them. Heck, alot of them (ex: PT) are alot more dangerous than you'd think.

The issue is telling the forest from the trees - sure, Falcon isn't a sandbag, Jigglypuff isn't absolutely defenseless, and say, the lower tiered characters have some interesting/amazing moves, but how do they do overall, compared to each other, and in terms of the rest of the cast?

;3

Steak Tier

correct