Nakamaru
Smash Master
Yea, i have no money, and not enough gas to get to Pittsburgh and back so thats why i couldnt show.
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The *Official* Pittsburgh Melee Weeklies Thread of the LoL WoW Love
- Thread starter takieddine
- Start date
A-Laon
Smash Master
Thanks Evan for finally replying to my text message at 1:38 in the morning.
sorry about that, my day got really crazy
xyt
Smash Lord
wes will you be back at school by the 23rd? if not when?
pockyD
Smash Legend
he's going back the 25th i think
i'll probably be back 23rd or so though, we can play -_-
i'll probably be back 23rd or so though, we can play -_-
xyt
Smash Lord
lol i know i know XD
will we have a set up somewhere?
i will likely only have a controller
n i recall you're movin out of webster n all
EDIT: just outta curiosity. any updates on super champ combo? you guys goin? (pocky/swift)
and pocky. can you do me a favor and take off my vids? some of them are pretty painful to watch.. and i played those matches.. thanks.
will we have a set up somewhere?
i will likely only have a controller
n i recall you're movin out of webster n all
EDIT: just outta curiosity. any updates on super champ combo? you guys goin? (pocky/swift)
and pocky. can you do me a favor and take off my vids? some of them are pretty painful to watch.. and i played those matches.. thanks.
takieddine
Smash Master
...no johns....
Thats it...captain falcon is back in business.
Thats it...captain falcon is back in business.
pockyD
Smash Legend
i'll probably have a setup of some sort
will there be friday smash the 24th? we can't have it at CMU because it's orientation week
will there be friday smash the 24th? we can't have it at CMU because it's orientation week
A-Laon
Smash Master
Sweet. Let's give Evan even more hell.
takieddine
Smash Master
wow what a noob dead-aim is...
pockyD
Smash Legend
if you can shine out of shield then wd out of it, then it's very very useful
otherwise it's only a little useful with fox
otherwise it's only a little useful with fox
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
I can but in alot of fox situations like that u can shield grab which in alot of his matchups are better since the whole Uthrow > Uair is relatively reliable. Now if you are hit from the back usually fox is quick enough to be able to SH out of shield and do an aerial which will still punish the player.
another thing about it is that "out of shield" moves are only effective @ a high rate when someone misses an L-cancel or u successfully block a dash attack. Some ppl get lucky when they play the frame guessing game but trying to do anything out of shield like that is risky and/or impossible du to shield stun. In most of the fox matchups if someone Dash attacks u and u block u either wanna try to kill them with Usmash out of shield/shffled aerial/or grab Uthrow > aerial. the shine with its set knockback wont do anything.
In short there are just better choices, unless u rly want to waveshine like a peach or a shiek its not rly needed. Then again if u rly wanted to waveshine a peach or shiek that bad u could just Dair out of shield and start the shine. IMO there not enough reward for trying it as there is for the combo machine's version (falco).......his is very very useful, because he has better options on his shine follow ups.
another thing about it is that "out of shield" moves are only effective @ a high rate when someone misses an L-cancel or u successfully block a dash attack. Some ppl get lucky when they play the frame guessing game but trying to do anything out of shield like that is risky and/or impossible du to shield stun. In most of the fox matchups if someone Dash attacks u and u block u either wanna try to kill them with Usmash out of shield/shffled aerial/or grab Uthrow > aerial. the shine with its set knockback wont do anything.
In short there are just better choices, unless u rly want to waveshine like a peach or a shiek its not rly needed. Then again if u rly wanted to waveshine a peach or shiek that bad u could just Dair out of shield and start the shine. IMO there not enough reward for trying it as there is for the combo machine's version (falco).......his is very very useful, because he has better options on his shine follow ups.
pockyD
Smash Legend
um
shine out of shield on a pillar o_o
shine out of shield on a pillar o_o
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
perfect pillars wont allow it, but on second thought perhaps shine out of shield is good in that situation because depending on the pillaring u may be able to shine out of shield where u may not be able to do anything else out of shield,( However i think this case is very rare)......like since falco pillar has so many variables(dair > shine interval variances) its the only thing I can see that its useful for, but like i said out of shield moves are only successful @ a high rate when someone misses an L-cancel or u block a dash attack everything else is chance.
pockyD
Smash Legend
well pillarbreaking IS the most common use for shine out of shield -_-
but it can be extended to any other sort of point-blank shield pressure as well (i.e. peach fc nair->jab)
but whatever, i'm on your side here -_-; it's not super useful (unless you can wd, because then falco pillar => free fox grab)
but it can be extended to any other sort of point-blank shield pressure as well (i.e. peach fc nair->jab)
but whatever, i'm on your side here -_-; it's not super useful (unless you can wd, because then falco pillar => free fox grab)
A-Laon
Smash Master
A fox will only shine a falco out of a pillar if he lets him.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
pockyD
Smash Legend
wrong unless by pillar you mean repeated doubleshines
or unless you're one of those people who are even more confused about pillaring and you think it's the shine->dair combo (it's not)
A-Laon
Smash Master
A perfect pillar statistically leaves no sufficient opening of frames for a human being to react and perform the shine out of shield... if it leaves an opening at all.
D20
Smash Lord
63% of all statistics are made up.
Nakamaru
Smash Master
and 50% are false.
Alan, pillaring is the term used when a falco does SH dair-shine, repeat on someone's shield. That is what it really means, although people have adopted it into the typical falco shine combo.
I could see Shine out of shield only really working on falco and fox players. If a falco hits your shield with a dair, you should have enough time before falco's shine to hit him with a fox shine into thunder's combo possilby.
Alan, pillaring is the term used when a falco does SH dair-shine, repeat on someone's shield. That is what it really means, although people have adopted it into the typical falco shine combo.
I could see Shine out of shield only really working on falco and fox players. If a falco hits your shield with a dair, you should have enough time before falco's shine to hit him with a fox shine into thunder's combo possilby.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
I believe u have it backwards. I think u have to shine as they jump for their next Dair. It only seems logical, because falco has a slower jump animation (fox 4 frames and falco 5 frames)
A-Laon
Smash Master
I know what pillaring is, thank you. I've insulted more than enough people who don't.
And for the record, the most probable time to break a pillar would probably be one step further: shield the dair, shield the shine, shield and the 2nd dair, and THEN try to break it before he lands into another shine. After the first shine, the Falco has a very small window to get back up into the air and dair again, but he must also ensure that the dair hits in the latter half (or later) of his jump. Most imperfect pillarers (myself included) will dair too early after the first shine, and they're much easier to intercept on their way down.
pockyD
Smash Legend
if a human is doing a pillar, then a human can break it
anyways, some frame data
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2549765&postcount=8
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=35050
that's 5 frames for fox to shine out of shield. That's a 2 frame window. People can pivot perfectly and that's a one-frame window
point being, i don't care if you don't know this stuff, i wouldn't expect anyone to (i didn't know the frame data, i just knew it was possible). However, speaking as IF you know the stuff and talking down to people who are proving your wrong puts you in mood4food territory
A-Laon
Smash Master
Then I'll just call you "Mood" from now on.
Anyway, back on topic:
Comparing pivoting to breaking pillars with a properly timed shine out of shield leaves out one very important detail: pivoting is a self-manipulated action with a timing mastered by one's own muscle memory, while the actual moment you have to break a pillar (and I do mean the moment, not the duration of the window) is largely influenced by the opponent's actions, and the slightest abnormality in timing will change that moment, and you have a whopping 2 frames to recognize this and react... beyond the realm of human reflex. Pivoting, a self-controlled muscle memory, has no such variable -- the timing from the initiating dash dance to the pivot frame is exactly the same everytime.
Breaking a pillar is a reaction to a window your opponent can influence. Pivoting is muscle memory. They're in no way similar.
As to the overall point: show me somebody with the hand-eye coordination and reflexes to recognize and react to a window in 2 frames, and you may be right.
pockyD
Smash Legend
well the important point here is that NO ONE does a perfect pillar so NO ONE has to do a perfect shine out of shield, and even if some robot did a perfect pillar, some other robot could to the perfect shine out of shield and break it
who shines out of shield against pillars? dashizwiz with FALCO, which is an additional 2frame disadvantage. it's doable with regularity, and that's what matters
what are you were trying to prove here
who shines out of shield against pillars? dashizwiz with FALCO, which is an additional 2frame disadvantage. it's doable with regularity, and that's what matters
what are you were trying to prove here
A-Laon
Smash Master
All that "perfect pillaring" is is simply timing all the components of the pillar properly to prevent your opponent from being able to react offensively. In fact, the only reason anybody calls it "perfect" is because "imperfect" pillaring (leaving yourself open to grabs and the like) defeats the whole purpose of pillaring in the first place.
And all I'm out to prove is that trying to break pillars with shine out of shield is a bad idea and that Evan shouldn't rely on it as a tactic. I was simply answering his question, actually.
pockyD
Smash Legend
so what do you say to the fact that shiz successfully uses it repeatedly against lambchops, forward, etc.?
A-Laon
Smash Master
Not even the best Falcos will pillar flawlessly with 100% consistency. Falco's the most technically strenuous character with good reason. To perform flawless pillar timings consistently, although more than doable, still requires an upkeep of dexterity, and any slight error in timing will inflate the window of vulnerability in a pillar. I'd actually be quite surprised if Shiz didn't get many oppertunities to punish this.
Also, even in the most technically sound pillar possible, there is still a small window of vulnerability. This window is far too small to be exploited out of reaction; however, I'd expect very good players, especially that of Shiz, somebody so familiar with the specifics of Falco, to be able to acquire the opponent's timing of the pillar and anticipate this window. Do that, and it becomes pivoting with more frames to pull it off. Regardless, ultimately, even with his ability to pull this off, that's anticipation, not reaction, and my entire argument has been that you can't react with shine out of shield.
Also, even in the most technically sound pillar possible, there is still a small window of vulnerability. This window is far too small to be exploited out of reaction; however, I'd expect very good players, especially that of Shiz, somebody so familiar with the specifics of Falco, to be able to acquire the opponent's timing of the pillar and anticipate this window. Do that, and it becomes pivoting with more frames to pull it off. Regardless, ultimately, even with his ability to pull this off, that's anticipation, not reaction, and my entire argument has been that you can't react with shine out of shield.
pockyD
Smash Legend
no falco will pillar perfectly
therefore shine out of shield will often break pillars
agree or disagree
preferably without a 3 paragraph essay
therefore shine out of shield will often break pillars
agree or disagree
preferably without a 3 paragraph essay
A-Laon
Smash Master
Alright, I get it:
So, we both present our arguments, and after enough exchanges of ideas and debates, you finally, upon having all of your points counter-argued, realize that I'm not going to see your way, restate your points without support, and throw in an extra condescending personal strike to go out on?
I guess that if this helps you reassure yourself of your elitist self-image after failing to win an argument, that I should just ignore it. Well, I typically have ignored it and just waited til we all get together on Friday so I could include it in our discussion of why we all despise you. This week, however, I won't be getting to Duquesne, so I might as well bring it up here.
Constantly asserting your omnipotent perspectives on just about anything being discussed on this thread, regardless of how little you're involved (if at all), and then down-talking, often in a personal manner, all those who disagree or don't even tolerate your interjection is a great way to get yourself hated, and it's certainly worked wonders on us. I regret to inform you that your views are not law, your knowledge is not grand, and your tactics are not respected, and quite frankly, even if they were, we still wouldn't want to hear them every single time we make an innocent comment. I don't know if this is the stuff they teach you in TSA or PA panelists, but it sure as hell ain't anything that anybody here (or anywhere that isn't full of elitist idiots) respects.
Sorry, looks like I wandered into three paragraphs. Please allow me to repent and try again. Hopefully this version will satisfy you:
Shut up.
So, we both present our arguments, and after enough exchanges of ideas and debates, you finally, upon having all of your points counter-argued, realize that I'm not going to see your way, restate your points without support, and throw in an extra condescending personal strike to go out on?
I guess that if this helps you reassure yourself of your elitist self-image after failing to win an argument, that I should just ignore it. Well, I typically have ignored it and just waited til we all get together on Friday so I could include it in our discussion of why we all despise you. This week, however, I won't be getting to Duquesne, so I might as well bring it up here.
Constantly asserting your omnipotent perspectives on just about anything being discussed on this thread, regardless of how little you're involved (if at all), and then down-talking, often in a personal manner, all those who disagree or don't even tolerate your interjection is a great way to get yourself hated, and it's certainly worked wonders on us. I regret to inform you that your views are not law, your knowledge is not grand, and your tactics are not respected, and quite frankly, even if they were, we still wouldn't want to hear them every single time we make an innocent comment. I don't know if this is the stuff they teach you in TSA or PA panelists, but it sure as hell ain't anything that anybody here (or anywhere that isn't full of elitist idiots) respects.
Sorry, looks like I wandered into three paragraphs. Please allow me to repent and try again. Hopefully this version will satisfy you:
Shut up.
pockyD
Smash Legend
edit: so i got bored and read your post
so your point all along was that no one likes me? what about the shine out of shield?
i don't get why every time i say smash-related things it becomes an everybody-hate-on-me-fest
the things that you stated WEREN'T defined as an opinion ("STATISTICALLY speaking"?); they were stated as fact and i felt that you were misinforming people so i argued against your point. but nope, let's go ahead and jump to personal issues and "look at me, everyone's on my side because they all hate you"
if your whole purpose in this thread is to troll me, congratulations, you have done a fantastic job of turning my boredom into global disdain
so your point all along was that no one likes me? what about the shine out of shield?
i don't get why every time i say smash-related things it becomes an everybody-hate-on-me-fest
the things that you stated WEREN'T defined as an opinion ("STATISTICALLY speaking"?); they were stated as fact and i felt that you were misinforming people so i argued against your point. but nope, let's go ahead and jump to personal issues and "look at me, everyone's on my side because they all hate you"
if your whole purpose in this thread is to troll me, congratulations, you have done a fantastic job of turning my boredom into global disdain
pockyD
Smash Legend
btw it legitmately hurts me to think that you guys all sit around and talk about how much you hate me when i really thought of you as friends at the time i left
no jokes here
no jokes here
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
well dayum
wheres all this coming from?
wheres all this coming from?
A-Laon
Smash Master
I'm not one for making enemies, but with you quite intentionally raising a debate from just about anything I say so you can demean my intelligence and take personal stabs at me for your own arrogant amusement, I don't know what you expect us to think of you.
You and I both know you are trolling, so don't play stupid with more subtle posting where you all cooly excuse yourself from the argument you started and leave some condescending remarks to go out on, pinning the whole obnoxious debate on me. It's not convincing anyone of your maturity or intellect, nor is constantly baiting me into continuing arguments so you can attempt to debase and insult me for your own entertainment. You've proven this to be your nature with Iceburgh and your personal "entertainment" from setting him off (among other situations), and you're proving it yet again with me. The only reason I kept coming back is because I still had an underlying hope that you weren't just being a troll, but I've abandoned that mentality entirely now... far later than most others.
If you want to continue to play stupid and argue against what I've said above in an attempt to defend your actions (and probably take some more personal jabs at me along the way, naturally), feel free to do so; we'll continue to disrespect you. Either way, everybody would appreciate it if the thread wasn't polluted with massive sprawling debates filled with hostility and arrogance regarding petty topics nobody was too concerned about to begin with -- this isn't the power rankings. If you absolutely must continue to provide your insight, don't expect my two cents. We both win, as does the thread.
I'm sorry for all this drama but it had to be said.
pockyD
Smash Legend
i don't get why smash discussions can't just be about smash anymore
i wish you would just get on aim or something so we could talk more clearly without the thread exploding
edit: and if you think i am singling you out, you are sorely mistaken (and... never mind). i pick on sheik all the time, and i apparently i recently (accidentally i might add) offended kevin yeh concerning the smash location. i also frequently disagree with tim and wes but they realize that it's not personal and it's all about what's being said, not the person behind it. i'm a confrontational person, i wear my heart on my sleeve, etc etc
i wish you would just get on aim or something so we could talk more clearly without the thread exploding
edit: and if you think i am singling you out, you are sorely mistaken (and... never mind). i pick on sheik all the time, and i apparently i recently (accidentally i might add) offended kevin yeh concerning the smash location. i also frequently disagree with tim and wes but they realize that it's not personal and it's all about what's being said, not the person behind it. i'm a confrontational person, i wear my heart on my sleeve, etc etc
xyt
Smash Lord
@ Alan: it's probably better to just speak for yourself if you're gonna direct hate comments at someone. i say this because i don't see a single person speaking the words "we **** talk pocky on fridays" besides you at the moment. cause frankly, if i was in pittsburgh right now i would feel very uncomfortable if you were representing me the way you just did. this is not a threat or even advice.. just an opinion that i felt would be better off expressed than not.
on another note, i feel as though i understand where you're coming from. I took pocky's words a bit personally at one point but as hard to believe as it may be, I serisouly don't think he does it to offend/condecend people. He just likes to discuss/point things out.
Anyways.. just thought i'd share that cause it seems like you took it a bit personally as i had before. Again.. not meant to put you on the spot nor am i trying to say one person is right or wrong.. hopefully this clears things up a bit.
@Pocky: I don't know if this back talking deal is true or not. but i don't think they'd single out or **** talk anyone out of good humor (in other words, the usual). i don't know.. i trust em all as good friends (which is why i tolerate the endless gay comments) and i think you do too. So,.. the point is.. don't lose heart sir : D
on another note, i feel as though i understand where you're coming from. I took pocky's words a bit personally at one point but as hard to believe as it may be, I serisouly don't think he does it to offend/condecend people. He just likes to discuss/point things out.
Anyways.. just thought i'd share that cause it seems like you took it a bit personally as i had before. Again.. not meant to put you on the spot nor am i trying to say one person is right or wrong.. hopefully this clears things up a bit.
@Pocky: I don't know if this back talking deal is true or not. but i don't think they'd single out or **** talk anyone out of good humor (in other words, the usual). i don't know.. i trust em all as good friends (which is why i tolerate the endless gay comments) and i think you do too. So,.. the point is.. don't lose heart sir : D