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The Official Everything Thread - The Basics, How To Improve, Frame Data etc.

MTKO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
294
Location
Hampden, Maine
I wouldn't advise acting elitist towards anyone that feels overwhelmed by Melee's metagame. It's a very reasonable reaction to want to give up if you see someone flying around at mach speed and killing you every 5 seconds. Instead of trying to show them a whole bunch of different things, start with one basic thing they can actually do. I remember teaching someone who played Sheik just how to jump cancel. He couldn't WD or SHFFL, but by the end of a 30-45 min gaming session he was JCing a large majority of grabs and he seemed pretty satisfied that he made progress that was not only benefiting his game play, but was easy to see as well. That's another thing I've learned about introducing new players is that you should encourage them to learn techniques that show clear progress. If someone focuses on learning something like how to approach, the results of how effective their approaches are aren't always very obvious. I always encourage players to practice tech skill when they start out because a player can get a lot of satisfaction from seeing himself be able to WD properly and land solid SHFFLs for the first time.
I think this is what everyone should try to do in a way to get more people they know interested in Smash. I remember I actually started to want to get good at this game on a competitive level after learning about wavedashing. I thought it was a really cool and impressive trick. It was challenging to learn at first and once I got it down, I felt like I had accomplished something and I felt good. So then I began learning more and more about the game and haven't stopped playing it since.
 

MonkUnit

Project M Back Roomer
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
6,075
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
I have the frame data for Young Link's ledge drop jump bomb pull edge grab.

The frame window for the ledge drop bomb pull is exactly 10 frames. This is made by jumping on one frame and then on the next frame doing the bomb pull. This is also made without fast falling. This is just hitting C stick or down to fall off the stage then doing jump + bomb pull.

Frames are jump on Frame X then on one frame after Frame X you pull bomb.

If you fastfall, it is a four frame window. Frames are jump on Frame X then on one frame after Frame X you pull bomb.

The reason why it feels so hard to do is because people are probably holding down+B which causes them to fastfall and restricts them to the four frame window.

Wasn't sure if I should post it in the statistics thread because it is over two months old.
 

MTKO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
294
Location
Hampden, Maine
I have the frame data for Young Link's ledge drop jump bomb pull edge grab.

The frame window for the ledge drop bomb pull is exactly 10 frames. This is made by jumping on one frame and then on the next frame doing the bomb pull. This is also made without fast falling. This is just hitting C stick or down to fall off the stage then doing jump + bomb pull.

Frames are jump on Frame X then on one frame after Frame X you pull bomb.

If you fastfall, it is a four frame window. Frames are jump on Frame X then on one frame after Frame X you pull bomb.

The reason why it feels so hard to do is because people are probably holding down+B which causes them to fastfall and restricts them to the four frame window.

Wasn't sure if I should post it in the statistics thread because it is over two months old.
I don't have a copy of smash with me right now so I can't check it out, but that sounds like something fun to practice.
I'm pretty sure this is a good place to post it because the thread is for technical information too.
 

MonkUnit

Project M Back Roomer
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
6,075
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
I have not seen a lot of people do it, but it is a high risk high reward kind of thing. If you are facing against someone with a good edge guard such as marth, you want to jump at the last possible frame to avoid going above the stage lip and getting hit. What usually ends up happening if mistimed is that you have to upB to recover. Most people will just crouch cancel YL's upB and then knock YL off stage again. Also, you cannot carry the ledge invincibility throughout the entire LDJBP.
 

MTKO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
294
Location
Hampden, Maine
I have not seen a lot of people do it, but it is a high risk high reward kind of thing. If you are facing against someone with a good edge guard such as marth, you want to jump at the last possible frame to avoid going above the stage lip and getting hit. What usually ends up happening if mistimed is that you have to upB to recover. Most people will just crouch cancel YL's upB and then knock YL off stage again. Also, you cannot carry the ledge invincibility throughout the entire LDJBP.
On which frames do you lose the invincibility after pulling the bomb?
 

MonkUnit

Project M Back Roomer
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
6,075
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
I do not know. I will check that out later today. I did try doing the LDBP while having invincibility, but it did not seem to carry it for any useful frames. I'll check it out though.
 

MonkUnit

Project M Back Roomer
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
6,075
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
Alright, I tested it out. You do not carry invincibility from the bomb pull to be useful. You can only get 1 or 2 frames of invinc /during/ the startup of bomb pull. That's about it. TBH it is much safer to do aerial bomb pull while on stage.
 

MTKO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
294
Location
Hampden, Maine
Alright, I tested it out. You do not carry invincibility from the bomb pull to be useful. You can only get 1 or 2 frames of invinc /during/ the startup of bomb pull. That's about it. TBH it is much safer to do aerial bomb pull while on stage.
Ah I see. I thought maybe the invincibility would be longer making it a useful/cool gaurd break.
 

MonkUnit

Project M Back Roomer
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
6,075
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
More frame data

Grounded Bomb Pull Animation: 40 Frames
Forward Light Toss (Hitting just A): 19 Frames total. On the 7th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air
Forward Smash Toss (Smash stick + A): 19 Frames total. On the 7th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.
Upwards Light Toss: 19 Frames total. On the 10th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.
Upwards Smash Toss: 19 Frames total. On the 10th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.
Downards Light Toss: 19 Frames total. On the 6th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.
Downards Smash Toss: 19 Frames total. On the 6th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.

Aerial Bomb Pull Animation: 39 Frames
Aerial Forward Item Throw: 19 Frames total. On the 7th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.
Aerial Backwards Item Throw: 19 Frames total. On the 7th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.
Aerial Upwards Item Throw: 19 Frames total. On the 7th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.
Aerial Downwards Item Throw: 19 Frames total. On the 7th frame, the bomb hitbox is out and the item is in the air.


Fun Fact: If you shield roll all the way to the edge of a platform(having your back towards the edge), you can throw a bomb downwards without hitting yourself. However, if you face TOWARDS the ledge and throw a bomb downwards, you will hit yourself.
 

Megachuk

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 4, 2005
Messages
577
Location
Ft. Thomas, KY
I need your guys' help. I'm writing a paper for school about how SSBM is be best fighting game ever made... I've gotten to the paragraph where I plan on talking about hand speed and frame data. All I want to do is give the reader a common scenerio where the hand speed seems silly. So I was thinking about laying out a fox doing: SH>Nair>FF>Lcancel>shine>SH

I need help explaining to my reader how fast this is, and explain how many frames each of these inputs takes.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
frame 0 input jump
1-3 frames jump squat, release jump by frame 3
nair can be inputted anywhere from frame 3 to frame 13
ff is inputted anywhere from frame 12 to 15
l-cancel is inputted anywhere from frame 11 to frame 17
shine is frame 25
sh is frame 27-28

i might be having a brainfart and those timings could be off by a frame but you get the idea
 

Alotsa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
49
Location
CA, USA
I need advice

Let me start by saying I am not a noob. I have UTFSE and been patrolling this board for a years now but im making this post because im at the point were i need some direct advice.

Im trying to main Marth and would like to have a respectable Link.

Im at the point in my smashing that when i try to implement techniques i just end up getting owned by faster characters ( ex Sheik ).

Basically Im Thinking to much and im to slow. My theory is that my main weakness is when i try to cancel my aerials i end up shielding for a second and loose valuable frames as well as throw everything else off, Im blindly trying to implement L cancel and creating bad habits in the process. I need to pick a method to L cancel and stick with it. should i use grab or one of the shield tabs. I understand this is all subjective but im at a loss here. When i play decent players or players that just have the reflexes down for this game its literally like they have precognition. This is not just when i play marth against a sheik he picks almost any character and just reads me, This person is not any kind of guru or has say more experience than me.

Nut shell = Any advice to abuse spot dogging that feels like pre-cognition and opinions of solid ways to L cancel. I see the difference when i really focus on L canceling with L or R but when i focus on that it detracts from other techs i should be utilizing and my whole game seems amateur. Once in a while i almost nail a combo that i am constantly trying to tell my hands to do so i fully anticipate the "practice more" response. but if you would like to help out let me know any more information i can provide, as im just sending out feelers here.

Thanks-
Alotsa
 

I.B

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
1,704
Location
Torontario
Random fact: if you're watching a video and don't know if it is PAL or NTSC, one way to tell is by the spacing between the stock icons; more spaced out = PAL.
 

Giygacoal

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
1,651
Stages

What's the general consensus on the sizes of the legal stages? Which stages are small, medium, and large?

Also that stock icon thing is cool. Thanks!
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
Depends on what you consider "stage size". The actual playing field? Or the distance to the blastzones?

BF = pretty medium in about every aspect
YS = small stage, near blastzones
DL = big stage, far away blastzones
FoD = medium stage, rather far away blastzones (not quite DL though =) )
FD = big stage, medium to far away blast zones to the side, medium to the top
PS = big stage, medium blast zones to the side, close top blast zone

Not completely sure about FoD / FD, rest should be accurate.
 

Giygacoal

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
1,651
Could Sheik chainthrow space animals (given a proper percentage, if at all)?
 

Talenheim

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 2, 2016
Messages
7
So I'm relatively new to the Smash games and consoles in general,so I've been having a lot of problems just getting used to not just the game and how it plays, but utilizing the controller and other console things.

Basically: What's the best way to get used to the physics, mechanics, and controls of SSBM, other than just playing a lot, if it even exists?

Things I find myself doing and have a really hard time breaking:

-Constantly thinking Starting lag and Ending lag are MUCH shorter than they usually are. As in, I think everything that's not obvious comes out frame 1 with lag ending the frame the animation does, including grabs and throws (I consistently try to grab a jabbing Pikachu head on, for example)
-Downsmashing on a platform instead of dropping down and dairing
-DI'ing Smash 4 style, going against my direction from the beginning rather than going a perpendicular direction. Always. (interesting since I've literally level touched 4, only melee)
-thinking Shield can block Grab
-thinking that tapping the control stick midair a la smash attack can rotate your character (have lead to some embarrassing SD's where I recover away from the stage or brush the ledge with my back)

As for controller stuff, I occasionally Uair or upB instead of a side move since I'm not used to the fact that your thumb is at a ~12 degree angle when it's on the control stick. Also makes dashdancing really hard. I also try to hit L but fail since pushing directly down with me left index is at a bad angle, mashing the trigger into the controller wall and failing to shield or wavedash.

Is the only way to deal with these just to play a lot? Because I'm not sure if I'm ever going to get used to it.
 

Ten of Nine

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
172
Location
South
So I'm relatively new to the Smash games and consoles in general,so I've been having a lot of problems just getting used to not just the game and how it plays, but utilizing the controller and other console things.

Basically: What's the best way to get used to the physics, mechanics, and controls of SSBM, other than just playing a lot, if it even exists?

Things I find myself doing and have a really hard time breaking:

-Constantly thinking Starting lag and Ending lag are MUCH shorter than they usually are. As in, I think everything that's not obvious comes out frame 1 with lag ending the frame the animation does, including grabs and throws (I consistently try to grab a jabbing Pikachu head on, for example)
-Downsmashing on a platform instead of dropping down and dairing
-DI'ing Smash 4 style, going against my direction from the beginning rather than going a perpendicular direction. Always. (interesting since I've literally level touched 4, only melee)
-thinking Shield can block Grab
-thinking that tapping the control stick midair a la smash attack can rotate your character (have lead to some embarrassing SD's where I recover away from the stage or brush the ledge with my back)

As for controller stuff, I occasionally Uair or upB instead of a side move since I'm not used to the fact that your thumb is at a ~12 degree angle when it's on the control stick. Also makes dashdancing really hard. I also try to hit L but fail since pushing directly down with me left index is at a bad angle, mashing the trigger into the controller wall and failing to shield or wavedash.

Is the only way to deal with these just to play a lot? Because I'm not sure if I'm ever going to get used to it.
A pretty steep necro, but a relevant one at least.

How long have you been playing?
 

Talenheim

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 2, 2016
Messages
7
Not that long, I'd say three weeks? Also literally the first time I've ever touched a console or controller.
 

Ten of Nine

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
172
Location
South
Not that long, I'd say three weeks? Also literally the first time I've ever touched a console or controller.
Yea then just give it time.

I've had arguments on here with supposed "vets" about how long it takes to get comfortable and proficient in Melee.

Most of the time they don't factor in the many years that they spent before and after Melee playing with the controller as they were growing up. And they also don't consider the tons of casual years they spent playing Melee for fun, that time matters a lot. Simple non-competetive stuff like knowing what all the moves look like and what they do, recoveries, spacing, stages, etc. Starting from scratch can take much longer than if you grew up on Gamecube games/controller, or previously played thousands of hours casually with Melee or Smash 64.

So just stick with it, and focus on a few things at a time if you're overwhelmed. If you find that you can't shake the habits then ask for help from a better player. Melee I would say can be more confusing and daunting than learning to play an instrument or learning a language. And not everyone can teach themselves, most of those other high skill based disciplines require coaching or a teacher. Melee is treated differently because it's just just so common that people teach themselves the game (which usually leads to bad habits and missing out on important fundamentals/tricks/shortcuts).
 
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