The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

[bossa nova ♪]

I mean our discussion was about why you (everyone) literally feels that once they get to understanding creativity. I think therefore I am is synonymous to I create therefore I am.

And like I said, it's a concept you made your own and explained your own way because you understand it your own way. It's the same universal notion/truth/feeling/whatever about creativity though.

And you're welcome for the phrase, regardless. haha

ahh, i got you. yeah, i like your spin on that Descartes ****.


i guess it just bothers me that you're saying that i took your concept and "made it my own" and that's because i took that paragraph word-for-word out of a dear old text doc called "thoughts" which was basically my journal in high school... that's all. like i said, i only added that Anthony Burgess line for color. doesn't change the fact that you're inspiring, though.

 

[Dark Hart]

That might be why it didnt make sense to me, the ff thing

 

[AlcyoNite]

@Karn: That is the kind of thought that players like pitzer will fail to understand

 

[Moophobia]

So I thought the peach falcon match up was hard then I played mike and guh >.> so much more difficult than I previously thought against smart falcons

 

[stingers]

mike raaaapes that MU =[ hes so good at it

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I thought the peach falcon match up was hard then I played mike and guh >.> so much more difficult than I previously thought against smart falcons

What exactly was giving you trouble? That bit's definitely solid vs Peach though no doubt.

 

[Lightsyde]

ahh, i got you. yeah, i like your spin on that Descartes ****.


i guess it just bothers me that you're saying that i took your concept and "made it my own" and that's because i took that paragraph word-for-word out of a dear old text doc called "thoughts" which was basically my journal in high school... that's all. like i said, i only added that Anthony Burgess line for color. doesn't change the fact that you're inspiring, though.

Thanks, man.

Ahhh that makes sense then. I really hadn't meant it to be my personal concept so much as a concept I feel that is intrinsically present. In a sense you had still made that concept your own, just way before we met but I can understand your frustration with what I said. Yeah, Anthony Burgess is damn good at color. And like I tell you all the time, likewise.

EDIT: Man, I cannot wait to play Mike. Crazy Falcon dittos on the way.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

playing mike was fun.

he knows how to do stuff.

ccing falcon is funny. he just hits me and i jab him and run away looool.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Does jab to dash attack not work on Falcon? It does on Fox and it's hilarious.

 

[Moophobia]

He was just so good at punishing every little thing and he knows how to move really well so it was really difficult to catch him and getting death combo'd just about every hit sucked

 

[Dr Peepee]

He was just so good at punishing every little thing and he knows how to move really well so it was really difficult to catch him and getting death combo'd just about every hit sucked

1. make your little things harder to hit/hit him first

2. don't always chase him. use turnips to help with that whenever possible.

3. combo him as hard as possible on your hits(and use moves that help with that a lot like Fair).

 

[bossa nova ♪]

Ahhh that makes sense then. I really hadn't meant it to be my personal concept so much as a concept I feel that is intrinsically present.

that's definitely yours. it's intrinsically present because YOU are.


but i see what you mean, and i certainly have believed that for what i wrote in particular, even since high school. it's merely a conclusion from observation, and the dissonance required to reduce such a thing down to one tiny individual who owes everyone else his existence is only foolish.

 

[Moophobia]

1. make your little things harder to hit/hit him first

2. don't always chase him. use turnips to help with that whenever possible.

3. combo him as hard as possible on your hits(and use moves that help with that a lot like Fair).

I'll definitely be practicing a lot more especially on my movement

 

[Dr Peepee]

gooooood stuff =)

Peach's WD is kinda slow btw so keep that in mind. It could be useful in helping you decide how you wanna move better.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it might. but i'm afraid it'll get CC'd and then stuff. sometimes it also gets shielded. i may not be fast enough though.

wavejabbing is funny though. i think i just wavejabbed mike a few times.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, at any rate, you shouldn't always retreat after jabbing. I feel like you're missing out on some good opportunities to take space/threaten/hit someone that way. Most people won't run at Ganon after getting hit because they respect his big moves a great deal so you should use that more when you get a jab imo. I think L-pasta does that.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, i used to jab -> grab to stuff, but people just started boxing with me, and ganon often loses boxing battles.

my jab, then his jab, which either leads to a gentlemen in his case, or like in other cases i'll like cc a jab from my opponents and dtilt, which leads to them doing something cause the dtilt didn't knock down, etc.

i just lose a lot of jab battles. they often end in fsmashes from falco lol.

i didn't used to like jab dash attack cause at lower percents they just tech away and i'm done. but that may be better than going for grabs and getting boxed.

i often jab to dsmash. this catches people looking to jab battle me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wtf are you CC'ing into those moves? If not then you could probably jab to even aerial or like Ftilt lol. Force them to respect da range and power.

Dash attack, when DI'd in is pretty easy to follow up on. That tactic sounds great to reverse stage control problems though, doesn't it? Even if they shield you should still plow through them somewhat safely.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ccing into stuff like falcos fsmash?

i guess. the boxing battles are usually cc battles.

when i break an approach like a falcon nair, they don't usually fall down. if they do, then i can jab fair, or jab wd forward down angled ftilt. but if they just come out standing (low %), then either boxing happens, i run away, or i run in and risk getting hit (grab, dash attack, etc)

once falcons get higher percent, they become wary of jab fairs, and don't come in with that free nair that they may do when they're at lower percent.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Something doesn't feel right about that scenario, but I don't play enough Ganon to know for sure I suppose.

Maybe we can work on some solutions to that stuff at low % at NCSU. I'm not sure what else to say about it atm.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

you think ganons jab provides a truly advantageous scenario?

i mean it's good, and i'm glad i have it, but it seems like just the beginning of some complex rps-esque things rather than a simple jab -> profit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nah not necessarily, but I feel it grants stage control at the least if nothing else. I haven't considered CC'ing to be a detriment to jab before because I just figured no one would wanna get double jabbed or jab dash attacked or jab faird or jab grabbed so they'd run away if they didn't shield lol.

Guess I'll have to see what it looks like.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

the initial jab doesn't get CC'd. but it doesn't knockdown at low percents either. so it just creates an awkward point where falcon and ganon are staring at each other with pretty equal lag. so i usually run away.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Aw shoot Falcon is close and he's not DD'ing and you got a hit? That yells momentum to me that I'd try to capitalize on, but again I haven't played much Ganon recently at all. It may just depend on his reaction. Maybe standing still and reacting is better than always running away. You might be missing something.

 

[Pitzer]

@Karn: That is the kind of thought that players like pitzer will fail to understand

Stay playing PAL version you ***

 

[-ACE-]

the initial jab doesn't get CC'd. but it doesn't knockdown at low percents either. so it just creates an awkward point where falcon and ganon are staring at each other with pretty equal lag. so i usually run away.

if he's at 0%
NO DI/DI IN: jab > jab (if 2nd jab clanks, wd back... if it whiffs, you might have to roll, or jump out if you predict a ground attack)
DI BACK: jab > ftilt (possible 2 hits/1 hit + shield pressure that prevents punishment and wins over a small amount of space)
Whenever you know you have the time or can safely catch them in landing lag: jab > grab
Defensive option: jab > wd back
Defensive retreat: jab > pivot dash > early sh bair (to cover the possible immediate rush, early so that you have the option to dj (into earial or platform waveland) before hitting the ground so you won't be punished in sh landing lag).

eh. just thought i'd post what came to mind

TWITCH: I'm not moving. My next job will be in delaware. I do, however, plan to move to wilmington, nc around april/may.

 

[lord karn]

I read 5 the other day, but eh it just matters that his is slower lol.

I have no sympathy for Sheik at high level. That character is great then too, it just requires some thought like it does for all of the other top characters. Peach, if we consider her top tier, certainly has it the worst out of all of them being as slow as she is without much aid for speed beyond faster FC moves.



I'm pretty down with this way of thinking. DD on the ground and a falling dude in the air=lol.



All I have to say about this is Amsah does what anyone else could be expected to do, he covers the weakness with solid play. Let's not also forget that one can actually turn a weakness into an advantage at times. A small part of my example related to this with Sheik would be that her SH is deceptively long and she can FF at many different times during it. This leaves room for a lot of baiting and, really, approaching as well due to how hard it is to adjust for all of the different spacings and timings made possible by Sheik's SH and FF possibilities.

I won't argue that it's not a weakness, but I don't think it's as glaring as it's made out to be here. I would find Peach's weakness to be much more apparent and difficult to circumvent because there isn't much one can do about being slow except for playing as fast as possible and otherwise reading super hard since you can't do as much as faster characters(neither of these actually solve the issue when put up against equally intelligent/technical opponents).

"Solid play" is a really vague term, and really just fits into what I said about amsah anyways. He outplays his opponents, by conditioning his opponents to not punish his jump speed. And even though she has many different times she can fast fall or put an aerial out, the fact of the matter is that unless it's spaced well it can be CCd by the other character, and that character has more control of the space does when sheik from the moment she hits jump.

And I definitely don't think this weakness is enough that it makes her not a top character. She has strengths even beyond other top tier characters that make up for it. Best edgeguarding in the game, obejctively best aerials in the game, good run speed, great tilts, great grab game. If she had fox's jump speed/height I think she would easily be the best in the game. The point I was trying to make is that the mindset while playing sheik at high level HAS to be geared towards avoiding the exploitation of that weakness, and in some cases like you said making it a strength.

And yeah, peach definitely has it worse off than sheik.

The other characters weaknesses are less fundamental than Sheiks, and are more about how many exchanges that character has to win as opposed to weaknesses that actually affect exchanges.

Falco: Biggest weakness is that he dies easily. This means that he has to have an even higher win rate for exchanges, because losing less exchanges can lead to a lost stock.

Marth: Opposite of falco which strangely leads to nearly the same thing. He sucks at killing (vs. non spacies). This means he has to win more exchanges. Both Falco and marth rely on being very consistent.

Fox: Well, fox is the best.

Jiggs: Haven't thought about it enough.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Stay playing PAL version you ***

 

[Dr Peepee]

"Solid play" is a really vague term, and really just fits into what I said about amsah anyways. He outplays his opponents, by conditioning his opponents to not punish his jump speed. And even though she has many different times she can fast fall or put an aerial out, the fact of the matter is that unless it's spaced well it can be CCd by the other character, and that character has more control of the space does when sheik from the moment she hits jump.

And I definitely don't think this weakness is enough that it makes her not a top character. She has strengths even beyond other top tier characters that make up for it. Best edgeguarding in the game, obejctively best aerials in the game, good run speed, great tilts, great grab game. If she had fox's jump speed/height I think she would easily be the best in the game. The point I was trying to make is that the mindset while playing sheik at high level HAS to be geared towards avoiding the exploitation of that weakness, and in some cases like you said making it a strength.

And yeah, peach definitely has it worse off than sheik.

The other characters weaknesses are less fundamental than Sheiks, and are more about how many exchanges that character has to win as opposed to weaknesses that actually affect exchanges.

Falco: Biggest weakness is that he dies easily. This means that he has to have an even higher win rate for exchanges, because losing less exchanges can lead to a lost stock.

Marth: Opposite of falco which strangely leads to nearly the same thing. He sucks at killing (vs. non spacies). This means he has to win more exchanges. Both Falco and marth rely on being very consistent.

Fox: Well, fox is the best.

Jiggs: Haven't thought about it enough.

I don't know if all characters necessarily have better control of space then Sheik when she jumps because of how big her Fair/Bair are, but the purpose of the jump is to zone, not necessarily to approach(without conditioning given via zoning). Do you believe Sheik really can't even jump safely vs the better characters?

Why do you think her edgeguarding is better than Marth's? I can never decide between the two.

If you're picking out biggest weaknesses, then yeah I agree about Falco.

Marth is pretty good at killing if you just abuse his range when juggling/edgeguarding over and over. Plus I feel he can actually gimp or repeatedly edgeguard to rack up damage vs floaties well anyway so it kinda avoids the issue in a sense. Yes, you technically have to win the scenario over and over but it's a pretty advantageous scenario so it's MUCH easier to handle than a normal neutral position, which is why I say it's not THAT bad.
Plus tippers kill mad early lol.

My biggest concern with Marth is escaping juggles, because that leads to early deaths or just more certain deaths. I never had a problem with killing I guess, but I do play with a Fox main a lot.....meh darn it I can't wait to play more Marth lol.



Jiggz is ***** by her mobility and sucking when above or below people(no real priority moves there and she's always jumping). I'm not sure what's the worst for her but you could kinda argue that they're related. I kinda want to lean towards the low vertical priority thing based on feeling, but low mobility sucks pretty badly so eh.

 

[OmniOstrich]

reasons sheik is better at edgeguarding than marth:
-needles (as a projectile)
-needle cancel (as a significantly faster turnaround than marth's bair/dancing blade options)
-fair(sheik)>fair(marth) for edgeguards because of the angle it sends players at
-strong control of the edge itself (meaning sheik can get off and back the ledge faster than marth, largely because of the needle cancel, but also her aerials are faster)

the only thing marth does better is that when holding the ledge to force on stage recovery lag is waveland are better (mainly fsmash)

I feel like all of this is obvious when comparing M2K's marth and sheik.

 

[Lightsyde]

Needles are fantastic for edgeguarding I agree. The actual projectile is the only thing I might really agree whole heartedly might make her better at. Also, Sheik's wall jump fair is godly and I am glad more Sheik's don't know how to use it like Amsah did when I played him.

Anyway, some points for Marth though:

-His Bair to fast fall or fast run to WD turnaround WD onto the edge normal allows him plenty of time to get the edge if he actually wants it. Fast fall -> Sweeping Bair off the edge is beastly for covering options; Sheik's is too but Marth's is a little easier to kill with and his UpB is conducive to responding to heroic recovery attempts if you mistime it.

-Sheik's Fair is better than Marth's Fair, but they are equally effective against offstage spacies (if you space Marth's Fair right). Also, don't forget about reverse dolphin slash having as much knockback (or more) than an Fsmash, and it's pretty much autodeath for most characters if he calls your low recovery with it offstage. Again, I think Marth's UpB > Sheik's UpB for lagless edgeguarding stuff might really swing it back to Marth.

-Marth's Dair is so disgustingly good for edgeguarding. The fact that it's one of the only true spikes in the game should speak volumes about how frequent you should try to utilize it; all of Sheik's kill moves are surivival DI'able so she has no equivalent. You can end so many characters stocks so quickly just by jumping on with Dairs or SH Dairs if they miss sweetspots. Also, Fair interceptions of recoveries often lead into Dairs if they miss the away DI on the Fair or Marth gets a sweet spot for combo'ing on the Fair.

-Also, besides that Sheik only really needs Fair/Bair for edgeguarding and both can be avoided by DI'ing into stage on a recovery/riding the wall with a Firefox/bird. Sheik has a lot of trouble with the latter option, where has Marth has Counter to make spacies UpB's and aerials from the edge recoveries extra dangerous.

-Also, charge Neutral B as a reactionary edgeguard. You would be amazed how many timings you can cover by just jumping off the stage (FH/SH depending on situation) and following them horizontally down while charging Neutral B. This can often hit them out of their jump/UpB when they not expecting at a distance from the stage dramatically hard to recover from. It's a fairly short animation (from release of B to end of lag) so it can also be used early to early timings and then released to grab the edge and cover different options.

-If all else fails, overall holding the edge with Marth ***** characters with laggy recovery for the sheer reason that he always at least has the option to get them to land, then full FD on into turnaround tipper (if possible), Utilt (at higher %'s vs Floaties), Grab (Dthrows reset Marth to make up for botched edgeguards often, Uthrow leads to crazy free stuff at mid to high percentages on almost all of the high tier), SH/FF Dair (on grounded opponents can often lead into hitstun bounces into Fsmash/Dair again/Dolphin slash etc) regular Fsmash/Dolphin slash (again gives Marth stage control and a new chance to edgeguard at the other side of the stage).

Basically what I'm saying is...while Sheik might seem like she beats Marth in certain aspects of edgeguarding, Marth's overall amount of edgeguarding options give him crazy amounts of mixups, all of which can generally cover most if not all options and still leave him room to get back into good edgeguarding positions/stage control and the presence of certain moves (counter/Fsmash) often encourage an outstanding weariness of using half of certain characters available options.

Sorry for the wall of text. Hope this helps...someone. haha

 

[DJRome]

idk, the more i think about it, the more i think of sheik as a worse version of marth, in the same way i think ganondorf is a bad version of sheik

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i've thought of ganon is a bad version of marth...

but a bad version of sheik...interesting...

 

[Divinokage]

i've thought of ganon is a bad version of marth...

but a bad version of sheik...interesting...

Interesting? There is nothing more interesting than Ganon.

 

[DJRome]

holy **** kage is ****ing annoying instaignore

 

[Divinokage]

Congrats, you win nothing.

 

[Dr Peepee]

reasons sheik is better at edgeguarding than marth:
-needles (as a projectile)
-needle cancel (as a significantly faster turnaround than marth's bair/dancing blade options)
-fair(sheik)>fair(marth) for edgeguards because of the angle it sends players at
-strong control of the edge itself (meaning sheik can get off and back the ledge faster than marth, largely because of the needle cancel, but also her aerials are faster)

the only thing marth does better is that when holding the ledge to force on stage recovery lag is waveland are better (mainly fsmash)

I feel like all of this is obvious when comparing M2K's marth and sheik.

This is pretty much what I had in mind for the argument, but my main qualm with Sheik's edgeguarding, aside from what Josh said I suppose, is she can't cover sweetspots from below well. Dtilt can be avoided by some characters or even spaced around much easier than Marth's Dtilt and/or Fsmash.

Also the other concern I have is when Sheik holds the edge and someone lands just in front of her onstage. If it's too far to Dair then she has to Fair and hope for the reset. Marth could spike them if he's close enough, or super delayed Uair which could combo, or tippered Fair which at least pops them up for a juggle which is still very advantageous for Marth but it could be a bigger punishment(Fsmash) depending on % and character and stage and DI. That could just be said as Sheik already missing the edgeguard though, so it's whatever you make of it.

Sheik definitely has it easier overall though if you take that away. Being able to run off Nair and beat/trade with most recoveries and combo into Fair out of them or sweetspot up-B is very silly and good lol. I dunno if I'd say easier=better though, but it's definitely another strong point in her favor.



Edit: I forgot Marth gets charged shieldbreaker onstage LOL that junk is ******** and easy and covers sweetspots too XD

Also having a true spike is a great point for him, I hadn't thought about that in terms of comparing the two edgeguards for some reason.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

holy **** kage is ****ing annoying instaignore

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO



poof

 

[AlcyoNite]

cam, i assume uve seen s2j's sig?

 

[Dark Hart]

holy **** kage is ****ing annoying instaignore

<3