The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings! Updated 8/14/14!

[Dr Peepee]

Why am I the one traveling all the time? =(

sigh.....

I'll be out again eventually lol but low on money once again.


Edit: Also I ain't sandbaggin you bits anymore gtfo. Also also I would go in on Slasher with roy.

 

[SK919]

Bring it bit. I an't scurd of your roy

and soon to be

 

[vZakat]

I'll make you scared of Roy. Don't worry.

 

[$mike]

Why am I the one traveling all the time? =(

sigh.....

I'll be out again eventually lol but low on money once again.


Edit: Also I ain't sandbaggin you bits anymore gtfo. Also also I would go in on Slasher with roy.

FFA with items in bwalr next time you come here.

:random:

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

logging in to see if there's really a dwam smiley...

:dwam:

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

i'm ****ing pissed.

 

[Dr Peepee]

lmfao guess I won't tell you how long THAT's been around then XD



Edit: LOL Mike let's do it dude!

 

[Moophobia]

We are all our own worst enemy, but also our best teacher.
[goukenism]

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think you should not tell people incorrect things like "getting hit is the worst that can happen", if this was supposed to be related to Melee.

I want to propose a concept that I've been talking about that I do a lot that REALLY works.

It's called "taking a hit on purpose." EDIT: This is a similar notion to crouch cancelling, but a lot more vast and underused. I am not the first person to do this by any means, but people do not talk about what I'm proposing seemingly ever so I hope you'll read what I say.

This game has something extremely unique to it: the combination of different types of DI, crouch cancelling, teching and edge cancelling. It changes everything in this game; rather, it adds an extreme extra layer of player interaction. It basically introduces a different type of counter play, aka a lot of inputs and reactions done while being combo'd.

Frequently in my experimenting with this concept, I've used moves that I know for a fact will put me in a position to be hit in a manner of my choosing. For an example, imagine charging a DSmash with Falco. You have set yourself up to do a move that is obviously not going to hit and you know (if you've been studying their patterns and know the match up) roughly what'll they try to punish you with based on their positioning. If they hit you, VERY frequently you can hit down + shield and tech the hit in place. Playing a character with a fast tech in place (spacies are amazing for this reason) allows you to absorb a contrived hard hit, especially at lower percents, tech in place, and stand and Shine or at very least, be in a position they weren't expecting.

Yet another example: lately when I mess around in friendlies and I'm way ahead with Falcon, I'll try to Falcon punch people. When it's obvious that they are not going to be hit, I prepare to tech their hit, immediately do so, stand and punish them. The fact that you can instantly tech almost every hit on reaction completely changes the notion of "don't get hit." Of course it's good not to take damage as a general plan, but you have to also consider that getting hit with all the crazy available defense options that CCing/teching/DI'ing offer, is just another mix up for your game play.

This is not limited to just doing laggy moves though. A lot of my combos I get to work with Falco, especially vs Marth or Fox, involve me doing to something I recognize as an over extension before I do it; however, the risk is negligible if I am already planning on teching the timing/limited moves I can be hit with, while the reward is often very great. Even if you miss the instant-tech I mentioned above, planning getting hit gives you insight and control of what comes immediately afterwards.

Also, as a nice bonus, if you try the insta-tech thing and are not doing a laggy move, rather just standing there, doing it far too early makes you spot dodge (they miss anyway) or powershield (frame advantage).

Basically what I am saying is, and what people think they understand but they haven't conceptualized to what degree, is that this game is about scenarios. These scenarios happen fast enough that people are normally content with binary thinking about getting hits; that is, YES I hit them, NO I missed them, conversely, YES they hit me, NO they missed me. But if you think about it more like Chess, which it's more similiar to than most fighting games, you should see the need for sacrifice for better situations/positions.

It honestly does not matter if you get hit if you've already predicted the manner in which they will hit you, because you will be prepared to react to that situation; you'll be ready to tech, ready to DI well, ready to slip out in any number of ways. The reason why combo'ing seems so ridiculous in this game (especially in the presence of skill gaps) is that combo skills come as a result of tech skill practice, often against computers, defensive tech skill (anti-combos, if you will) comes from a whole whole lot of experience at being combo'd hard by good players who combo well. Why does it seem like high level players are SO hard to kill? Because they are seeing another level of defense and recovery that you haven't observed yet.

Going back to my initial point, I can't say for sure what pros actually plan when, how and why they get hit, but I would be immensely surprised if this was not already in great use at high levels, intuitively at the very least. Ever since I've started doing this (really utilizing all the defensive techniques + purposely over extending to make situations look much better than they are) I have a much easier time a) living b) getting out of combos, even Kevin's, c) winning against almost everyone.

EDIT: Also relavant to conversation, if you see that you are going to get hit and can't tech it, try to reposition yourself as much as you can before the hit itself. You moving last second before a hitbox connects means you go in a different direction/angle/spacing than they were seeing when they started their move. Run into them a little further or try to cross them up even though you're going to get hit. Jump right before Falcos Dair hits you so you aren't in stun. Repositioning yourself as much as possible in the middle of combos is ESSENTIAL for getting out, especially if you've figured out the feel of edge cancels and insta-techs.

If I need to expand further on this, or this sounds ridiculous, please ask me rather than immediately rejecting this, or even better, try it for yourself.

This is a good point, but I'd like to add a few more interesting examples for clarity.

Taking ending frames/weak hits of a move- Say Falco is autocancel(AC) Bair'ing, and you decide to punish it since he didn't hit you right away. Even if Falco falls on you with a Bair, chances are that at most percents(especially with CC but even without) you can get a free punish just because the stun you incur from the weaker frames of Falco's Bair will be such that you can recover and still punish Falco before he can even act(aside from shield or shine I suppose but that's still slow overall in my experience).

Most importantly about all of this though, is the PERCENT at which you take damage. This seems like a DUH thing, but trust me it's better to have it written out. Taking damage at a lower percent you can cut out that CC middle man sometimes and swing around more wildly because you'll usually be safe from huge combos at low percent(watch any Fox ditto at the beginning especially if they don't grab ROFL). Higher percent means even weak hits you should be avoiding because any additional percent could make the difference between that extra recovery nuance or an easier shoulder button press to death. This all varies by move and even staleness(usage) of the move. For example, jabs can be CC'd well past 60, 70, sometimes 80 and 90% for most characters, but smashes are only about half that usually. Stale moves reduce damage output, and therefore knockback by association. Basically, it's probably easier to CC/withstand Zelda's kicks after a while if she doesn't always die quickly because that's mostly what she uses lol.


But yes, the defensive layers in this game are quite impressive. Edge cancelling your body, shining out of pressure, mashing that quick aerial or faking that jump mash are all pretty legit counters to combos that have started already, and that's without taking into account the monstrous impact DI has. Combos almost become a mixup game in themselves at times as DI and combo moves can be switched up, and sometimes, to me, it feels like I'm being strung along more than vice versa with how good some players' DI is and how they understand how to escape the clutches of dat bird lol. But mostly it's much better to consider yourself in a position of control when comboing to avoid defeatist mindsets like that haha.




I started rambling so I quit the post Josh LOL

very very good point from the syde where light meets dark



creativity is what's so exciting about these games... making and destroying things for your opponent to see or to not see. i got the same «URK» sort of feeling when i read slasher's statement, so i'm glad someone put it into good terms...



for me, it's clear that super smash brothers: melee isn't a fighting game. for the sake of english, we'll call it one, but it def needs to have its own category. i think i'll call it.. super smash brothers: melee.




also, yes. shoutouts to TJ. oh my god you are raw imaginative material and it's bright and beautiful.

The principles translate differently, but smash bros melee: melee: m'lady is still a fighting game on a lot of levels(lolpun). Having control of the stage still adds benefits. Getting a hit GENERALLY still grants momentum and vice versa. Forcing teching/grounded positions where your opponent is vulnerable is a powerful strategy among many characters or just in general. Little spacing/footsie tricks make all the difference at all of the right times in all of the right places etc etc etc


Platforms, DI, and vastly different character weight are some big differences yes, but it helps to be aware of the similarities to fighting games too, for community and I suppose reflective purposes.

Falco wins imo

but we been through dis before

yea what Cam said numbers are dumb

why bother having an opinion if you won't back it up? I don't understand that logic lol.

why does Falco win?

you don't have to use numbers if you don't want to but there's some merit to discussing matchups, and usually people get more motivated to talk about it if it's a who wins talk vs a hey I wanna know stuff talk.

Speaking of terrible people I have entered the building. My brain doesn't work like I try to train it to
Edit: and I talk to Kevin a Lot about smash

Not enough clearly =p

my sentiments exactly



for real though twitch, player vs player > character vs character. think about it

it's better to think that way when improving, but when discussing matchups you include some human factors as well like mixup potential.

We are all our own worst enemy, but also our best teacher.
[goukenism]

That's a cool quote =)

 

[Dark Hart]

why bother having an opinion if I don't back it up?

because backing up your opinions in NC threads is stupid

because it just makes people go

hey there fox wins because xyz

and I'll go

naw Falco win because xyz

then you'll be like

but this this and this

and I'll be like

but this this and this

and it'll just be a never ending because we disagree

I don't back up my opinion because you think it's wrong and you'll try to get me to talk about it

I'm not here to discuss Fox vs Falco

I don't give a ****

but I think Falco wins

since like combos are easier imo

most other parts of the match-up are pretty even imo

then you'll be like why are combo's easier for Falco, lucas

and I'll be like "***** HAVE YOU PLAYED FALCO THAT CHARACTER GOES HARD INTO COMBINING PAINT"

and you'll explain to me why Fox does it better or something

and I won't agree

it always happens that way, Kevin

always

sorry **** doesn't get me motivated like it apparently motivates everyone else in your world

sheesh

 

[Dr Peepee]

.............


...........................



.............................................








why not?

 

[Dark Hart]

god damnit I hate you so much right now Kevin

why not what?

Kevin you get 60 seconds until I turn this off and smoke a bowl and go to sleep

I gave you double the time

interest gone

*sleep*

 

[NearZzz]

salty people in this thread..

 

[bossa nova ♪]

the only merit i see in discussing match ups is understanding what "limits" your character and what your character has to "limit" your opponent's character. you can use some other relative term if you wish, but yeah...


the match up numbers are only useful for tier lists.


and those are a huge ****ing waste of time.


but i guess someone has to do it.

 

[Dark Hart]

But seriously I hate discussing match-ups

But I should be allowed to voice my obviously uninformed ****** *** opinion, Kevin you ****ing *******

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if two people fight evenly in an uneven matchup, does that mean that the players are even, or the one overcoming the matchup is better?

 

[Foy]

if two people fight evenly in an uneven matchup, does that mean that the players are even, or the one overcoming the matchup is better?

I believe this is where the power of heart comes in man. You gotta believe in yourself to **** the other person up even if the matchup is against you. **** the numbers and push yourself.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

trust me, i'm not worried about that at all. i'm curious about what other peoples opinions are on the subject i did pose though.

for example, if i somehow started going even with pp, in what is well known as a rather unfavorable matchup for ganon, would people consider that me being better than kevin, or us just being even in skill, regardless of character choice?

i'm with you as far as these things; i'm pushing my ganon fairly far forward, understanding a multitude of options and what is and isn't possible and reasonable, but i'd just like to combine matchup talk and player skill talk to see what comes of it.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I always felt like Fox/Falco was even-ish. Fox has better control of his personal space, which makes him win head-to-head. But I feel like Falco has better stage control and can force Fox to make bad commitments. I feel like Fox has to work slightly harder to establish a good position over falco but once he's in, he ain't leaving.

Also, to chris's question, that doesn't neccesarily mean you're a better player. It means you may have put more time into that matchup or you have a better understanding of that matchup. *shrugs* my opinion

 

[Foy]

Once again all about heart, instead of letting people judge you, show them facts.

If you are keeping up or beating Kevin then you are obviously doing something that he cant adapt to with his current character.

Actually **** i dont know how to explain this...>_> Ill get back to you later when i get TEGs opinion.

 

[Divinokage]

if two people fight evenly in an uneven matchup, does that mean that the players are even, or the one overcoming the matchup is better?

Could be the other one does not know the matchup as well which is why you could be doing even. But in general, it's your player's skill in general with your character that counts the most because that's what people see/want to see. It's about who you beat not who you use.. of course beating strong players with weaker characters is even more impressive but that doesn't happen very often. It's definitely always about using all your tools to beat someone strong or stronger than you, if you can't then your character is irrelevant.

So.. if you are going even with a player then that means you are going even, simple as that, well at least for me.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

i feel like no one is better than fox at getting around lasers.


he is really tiny and his amazing dash, legit WD, and his stupid fall speed make him really scary to just laser at times that it's perfectly acceptable for other characters. he's like marth but with more effort for the lesser risk in this case. fox throws out a move, he's usually safe unless fully anticipated, and even then he might be completely safe. marth thinks a couple steps ahead and tries to punish, whiffs, massive combo to death. but marth doesn't HAVE to be so risky... fox can afford to....


foxes don't know how to DI combos yet either, but there's an earth-shattering secret to DI-ing shines that could possibly make him wayyyy harder to combo for falco.

 

[SK919]

thinking about those match up tier list blah blah blah. Will just lead to johns and more losing. Win or lose. That should be all that matters.

 

[Divinokage]

thinking about those match up tier list blah blah blah. Will just lead to johns and more losing. Win or lose. That should be all that matters.

Of course, from the beginning you CHOSE a character to play with so the following thought should be: "I'm prepared to face whatever problems and situations I'm going to face in this match" So ya, instead of complaining, you try to find tools that will enable you to win, simple as that... of course it will be harder the crappier the character is but that's your problem. =P

 

[bossa nova ♪]

i agree

 

[0Room]

Well stopping all discussion at any time just to say
"omg just play"
isn't going to go anywhere either.

 

[Dr Peepee]

the only merit i see in discussing match ups is understanding what "limits" your character and what your character has to "limit" your opponent's character. you can use some other relative term if you wish, but yeah...


the match up numbers are only useful for tier lists.


and those are a huge ****ing waste of time.


but i guess someone has to do it.

As a player, yeah. As someone who should desire to demonstrate their knowledge or give back to the community in some way, no. Besides, discussing a matchup is a phenomenal way to learn things you may not have known previously, which I suppose you could say goes in your first paragraph but if so you'd need to word that differently.

Why are tier lists a waste of time? I think they're far from a waste of time. I think they're a useful tool for newcomers, for starters.

if two people fight evenly in an uneven matchup, does that mean that the players are even, or the one overcoming the matchup is better?

It depends on the skill level, sadly. The answer varies depending on how good the people are. If you want to get more specific(like you do in the next post but in different ways) then I would be down to respond to each scenario as I see it.

trust me, i'm not worried about that at all. i'm curious about what other peoples opinions are on the subject i did pose though.

for example, if i somehow started going even with pp, in what is well known as a rather unfavorable matchup for ganon, would people consider that me being better than kevin, or us just being even in skill, regardless of character choice?

i'm with you as far as these things; i'm pushing my ganon fairly far forward, understanding a multitude of options and what is and isn't possible and reasonable, but i'd just like to combine matchup talk and player skill talk to see what comes of it.

I don't think Falco beats Ganon by that much, but he does win. So, if we started going even, and since it's top level, I would mostly chalk the phenomenon up to our skill being relatively even. If I switched to, say, Fox and won the vast majority of our matches though, it calls a lot of things into question like your ability overall vs mine and such. I don't normally like to tread away from the original question like that but it serves the point of showing that what I determine makes one "better" than another person is someone who is more well-rounded than the one they are being compared to. NOW THEN, if we want to be strictly competitive tourney environment people, then I would say that, for the sake of objectivity that our results in tournament would determine how even we are. Assuming we went even in tournament then I would say that it would only be truly fair to call us even.

I always felt like Fox/Falco was even-ish. Fox has better control of his personal space, which makes him win head-to-head. But I feel like Falco has better stage control and can force Fox to make bad commitments. I feel like Fox has to work slightly harder to establish a good position over falco but once he's in, he ain't leaving.

Also, to chris's question, that doesn't neccesarily mean you're a better player. It means you may have put more time into that matchup or you have a better understanding of that matchup. *shrugs* my opinion

Personal space and he wins the head to head? Wouldn't that mean Fox got more first hits which should lead to kills faster, or am I misinterpreting?

What if the Fox stays on a platform? Could he not just commit when he wants to?

Which one combos harder?

That's not a bad assessment but it should be a little more complete imo.

i feel like no one is better than fox at getting around lasers.


he is really tiny and his amazing dash, legit WD, and his stupid fall speed make him really scary to just laser at times that it's perfectly acceptable for other characters. he's like marth but with more effort for the lesser risk in this case. fox throws out a move, he's usually safe unless fully anticipated, and even then he might be completely safe. marth thinks a couple steps ahead and tries to punish, whiffs, massive combo to death. but marth doesn't HAVE to be so risky... fox can afford to....


foxes don't know how to DI combos yet either, but there's an earth-shattering secret to DI-ing shines that could possibly make him wayyyy harder to combo for falco.

I told you that Marth can go in once he forces Falco to pause with his approaches/movements, so that means that Marth does not always have to plan so much as be very aware of his conditioning game.

Fox is scary because of his fall speed, dash, upsmash, and shine OOS in my opinion. Fall speed makes horizontal control tough, dash is the appropriate mixup and is insanely fast, upsmash comes out of the dash and beats out most moves or trades and leads to combos or kills, and shine OOS negates lots of pressure variations.

Falco's pretty good about keeping Fox from aggroing but forcing Fox back into aggression I'm scratching my head on whether Falco can actually solve that problem again or if the matchup is slightly simpler than I made it out to be.

More labbin

thinking about those match up tier list blah blah blah. Will just lead to johns and more losing. Win or lose. That should be all that matters.

Yes, as a player, that is true. When you're not playing, it never hurts to discuss matchups for the benefit of knowledge spreading or intaking though. Generally keeping your mind in smash is helpful in general. You don't have to extend the idea to johns or predecisions about matches if you don't want to do it.

 

[SK919]

On the subject of sand bagging.

I think the topic is getting a bit dry.. so I thought I'd throw something that's been on my mind recently.

On the matter of sandbagging. Everyone does it sometimes.. some more than others for different reasons... but guys does this benefit you at all? It is understandable if you are tired or having a bad day. Trying takes effort and if you have no energy or are in a bad mood then it's really hard to apply yourself.. For example the other day I forgot to take my anxiety meds and if I miss it.. I get loopy and dizzy so it was hard to focus.

But let's be real guys, if you are just not trying for some lame reason what are you gaining.. you are wasting your time and the time of the other player. I know PP sandbags sometimes like any other player but I also know 90% of the time he is focused trying to learn something. If I even get one stock off of him that means he has something to learn... I really think this is one of the reasons that kevin improved so quickly because this guy tried to maximize all the experience he got from friendlies. Never wasting his time.

Guys a minute wasted should be declared a minute of failure. Focus.. What does everyone else think?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I most certainly did try to absorb all I could from any friendly, and stopped doing that this year which is why I feel like I've fallen off in a way. I plan on going back to that mode asap and at least creatively playing so I can still learn something even if I'm not always trying to win. Living in Shelby priorities LOL.

But anyway, sandbagging can be cool to do on newer players so they don't get super discouraged(not necessarily letting them win but letting it be closer is nice at times). Otherwise unless there's a human factor like fatigue or emotion affecting you then I'd advocate trying always to improve. I'm not saying always be trying to win because the two are different, but that is a matter of interpretation that some people take very differently. I know it's only been extremely recently that I've tried to play to solely read and learn and I feel like that is a pretty good decision, although my other method of playing only to win always also helped me stay in a strong winning mindset as well.

 

[AlcyoNite]

why bother having an opinion if I don't back it up?

because backing up your opinions in NC threads is stupid

because it just makes people go

hey there fox wins because xyz

and I'll go

naw Falco win because xyz

then you'll be like

but this this and this

and I'll be like

but this this and this

and it'll just be a never ending because we disagree

I don't back up my opinion because you think it's wrong and you'll try to get me to talk about it

I'm not here to discuss Fox vs Falco

I don't give a ****

but I think Falco wins

since like combos are easier imo

most other parts of the match-up are pretty even imo

then you'll be like why are combo's easier for Falco, lucas

and I'll be like "***** HAVE YOU PLAYED FALCO THAT CHARACTER GOES HARD INTO COMBINING PAINT"

and you'll explain to me why Fox does it better or something

and I won't agree

it always happens that way, Kevin

always

sorry **** doesn't get me motivated like it apparently motivates everyone else in your world

sheesh

Sometimes I go into detail about why I believe /think/hypothesize certain things about the game and sometimes i dont. either way, i dont seem to get the frustrating feedback u claim to get from nc. guess i dont really understand ur problem

I think the topic is getting a bit dry.. so I thought I'd throw something that's been on my mind recently.

On the matter of sandbagging. Everyone does it sometimes.. some more than others for different reasons... but guys does this benefit you at all? It is understandable if you are tired or having a bad day. Trying takes effort and if you have no energy or are in a bad mood then it's really hard to apply yourself.. For example the other day I forgot to take my anxiety meds and if I miss it.. I get loopy and dizzy so it was hard to focus.

But let's be real guys, if you are just not trying for some lame reason what are you gaining.. you are wasting your time and the time of the other player. I know PP sandbags sometimes like any other player but I also know 90% of the time he is focused trying to learn something. If I even get one stock off of him that means he has something to learn... I really think this is one of the reasons that kevin improved so quickly because this guy tried to maximize all the experience he got from friendlies. Never wasting his time.

Guys a minute wasted should be declared a minute of failure. Focus.. What does everyone else think?

I think the term sandbagging is used too liberally. and as with any subjective term, any instance of sandbagging will boil down to

Who is the person being accused of sandbagging?

To what extent does the accuser think the guy is sandbagging?

To what extent does the accused think he is sandbagging (if at all?)?

What is the practical goal for the accuser in wanting the person to stop sandbagging?

If the accused is sandbagging on purpose, for what reason is he doing it? Because you see, there are other reasons for not playing at your full potential/putting your whole focus on the WIN at the end of the game. I often spend entire matches just thinking to myself about a certain tactic/tech skill/situation that happened a few games ago that i didnt understand/an idea that i just came up with and am working through my head/etc. And i would DEFINITELY say that that time spent for me is not a waste.


All of the answers to these questions can vary considerably depending on the situation. Another pertinent question is:

What is the discrete definition of sandbagging?

 

[Dark Hart]

Sometimes it's just other things are on the mind (autopilot).

 

[Divinokage]

I think the topic is getting a bit dry.. so I thought I'd throw something that's been on my mind recently.

On the matter of sandbagging. Everyone does it sometimes.. some more than others for different reasons... but guys does this benefit you at all? It is understandable if you are tired or having a bad day. Trying takes effort and if you have no energy or are in a bad mood then it's really hard to apply yourself.. For example the other day I forgot to take my anxiety meds and if I miss it.. I get loopy and dizzy so it was hard to focus.

But let's be real guys, if you are just not trying for some lame reason what are you gaining.. you are wasting your time and the time of the other player. I know PP sandbags sometimes like any other player but I also know 90% of the time he is focused trying to learn something. If I even get one stock off of him that means he has something to learn... I really think this is one of the reasons that kevin improved so quickly because this guy tried to maximize all the experience he got from friendlies. Never wasting his time.

Guys a minute wasted should be declared a minute of failure. Focus.. What does everyone else think?

I often play for the beauty of smash and for fun. Just doing dumb stuff to look cool or to try things. Sometimes taking a break and enjoy it is always nice, it's not really sandbagging.. it's just a different way to play... I don't play to learn all the time.. if I did my love for the game would probably diminish slowly and slowly because i always want more when what I can have is right there in front of me.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

sandbagging is.... consciously holding yourself back, right?


in friendly sets only, when my opponent johns/whines/noticeably gets depressed, i sandbag on reaction because i am receiving punishment for ******. punishment in the sense that i feel bad for doing well because its clear that my opponent has a personal stake in these friendlies.


i stress friendlies because when i play in tournament, those reactions only make me want to **** harder.



otherwise i try to do my best all the time.

 

[Lightsyde]

sandbagging is.... consciously holding yourself back, right?


in friendly sets only, when my opponent johns/whines/noticeably gets depressed, i sandbag on reaction because i am receiving punishment for ******. punishment in the sense that i feel bad for doing well because its clear that my opponent has a personal stake in these friendlies.


i stress friendlies because when i play in tournament, those reactions only make me want to **** harder.



otherwise i try to do my best all the time.

Pretty much this.

But also some of what Kevin says about not completely crushing people's morale/will to play. I remember how sad/upset getting ***** used to make me (still sometimes does), so I try not to continue that if I don't feel it's helpful to them anymore.

...but also sometimes I start doing what Theo was talking about a messing around with some kind of technique.

EDIT: And I guess sometimes because I just don't feel like playing gay. I realized the other day that unless I feel legitimately threatened by an opponent I only shoot really essential lasers, rather than keeping them going consistently throughout the match. It's likely why I've been getting ***** by Marth's lately, now that I think about it.

Also random thing I just remembered: I played David (in a 4 or 5 hour session) for an hour or two the other day (Falco vs Roy) and primarily went for only grabs rather than trying to beat him. I shot no lasers, did aerials only when absolutely necessary and focused a lot on movement, momentum and mindgames. I explicitly told him this was my game plan and after every match we checked the attempted grabs to actual throw count. Some matches I got into the mid 20's (1/2 to 2/3 of my attempted grabs). I did A LOT of Uthrow to empty FH, follow DI, regrab. I did a lot of mix ups with Bthrows (empty short hops around/over his shield), a lot of crazy situations emerged that I had never even really seen so much of, but it was stuff that I was causing to happen by playing Falco in a very "unconventional" manner.

What he told me after a while was that when I stopped doing the grabbing stuff he kept waiting for me to switch back to normal Falco play, but during our friendlies, every few stocks I went back to just grabbing and moving. He told me it made him realize that to just what degree there is no typical way to play a character (His exact wording was "It's like you showed me a coin I had been looking at for years, and then flipped it over") and to ever assume a charcter will move or act in a "typical" fashion is a mistake you very easily can slip into. David's been playing for several years so I thought this was a very interesting realization to bring him to and I thought the story might be revealing to some degree.

 

[Todd Bonney]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/65800/

Y'all should get this game and friend me and defend dungeons.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I found out how to play kinda like Mango vs Marth and that's some gooooood stuff.

It's kinda similar to what you said. XD

 

[Juno McGrath]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/65800/

Y'all should get this game and friend me and defend dungeons.

I have it, im not real crazy about it though.

 

[vZakat]

If I could like a post, I'd like Josh's post. But I can't so I'll just say it.

I liked that post.

 

[Todd Bonney]

It should be better than the mobile version available now.

 

[0Room]

Josh I wanna play you this weekend since I'm home for Fall Break
But yeah doing a lot of weird things like movement and unconventional actions is kind of the soul of this game imo
A lot of times you'll incorporate that and people will watch you and go "wtf is that?! What did you just do?"

Leading to a lot of personal change, and then a shift in the metagame as a whole
I keep thinking of dropzone, but I'm not entirely sure if that's what you're getting at

But anyway
That's what I'm saying