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The New Stage Discussion Thread: Operation Lava Kill

KishPrime

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KishPrime: Mute City is usually banned because Peach and Jiggs are too good there for still having recovery options while the rest of the cast doesn't. I agree the hazards etc aren't that bad.
Yeah, just like other characters have different options on other stages which make them better.

I'm not arguing that Peach/Jiggs aren't good there - they are. If anything, I'd like to see some stages that are Fox/Falco heavy put back in the game as well. The way stages have been banned favor people that play a small number of characters, if not one character, and have limited the amount of game knowledge necessary to compete.

Shrug. It's mostly opinion, to be honest. We don't have the kinds of stats necessary to prove anything like we want to.
 

ArcNatural

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I just feel like if you did that. Say put back in Corneria, Green Greens, Brinstar, and Mute. Your just widening the Gap between the middle and top tiers. And if you happened to play Fox/Peach/Jiggs you get practically an autowin if you win R1 (unless of course they already play Fox/Peach/Jiggs as well).

As it stands currently usually the third match is typically at a neutral or, at worst, Kongo Jungle.
 

KishPrime

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That's the point, though. It widens up the game knowledge base so you HAVE to be able to switch up characters. Eventually, everyone learns how to play Fox decently well on Green Greens, and then it's no longer an autowin or as desirable of a counter-stage. A limited stage list appeals to people who want to play only one character, because it usually helps them. The more stages you have to deal with, the more flexible you have to be in character selections.

I also don't agree with the automatic assertion that it widens the tiers. Every stage ban brings shuffles and affects every character differently. I'm fairly sure that Jigglypuff has benefitted from the more limited stage list.

And this is also where opinion comes in. I think Kongo Jungle is just as imbalancing as Corneria and Green Greens in some matchups. You can abuse the size of large stages just like you can abuse the size of small stages. It's just that because small stage effects tend to result in obvious lower-% deaths, everyone treats those effects like they are more significant than the extra damage and match control one can gain from abusing large stages, despite the fact that the effects of both are being used to effect the same end goal - victory. Same with the "flat-stage effects" of FD and the "platform effects" of BF.
 

SleepyK

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well that's the thing. should you be forced to decide whether it would be better to pick up another character for a stupid stage that provides a large disadvantage to your main.... or not?

personally i'd rather the ruleset be geared away from things like that
 

Druggedfox

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Forcing people to be able to switch up characters is a good thing? Especially when if you're fox ditto'ing on green greens, chances are that the fox main will have the advantage over the guy who's just picking up fox so he doesn't get absolutely destroyed?

Note that I think KJ64 is no better than green greens or corneria in this case. I would much rather put the emphasis on characters than stages, personally.
 

SleepyK

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i agree. buttstar, rainbutt cruise, and jk64 are silly.

although i still think Pokefloats should be legal
or at least only legal when psyduck is onscreen.

edit: alternatively, kongo butthole 64
 

KishPrime

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Forcing people to be able to switch up characters is a good thing? Especially when if you're fox ditto'ing on green greens, chances are that the fox main will have the advantage over the guy who's just picking up fox so he doesn't get absolutely destroyed?
I wrote a nice post in reply, but just bumped the back button and lost it. Sigh. Later, perhaps. In essence, yes, this is a great thing when taking a whole-game approach. That's your teaser.
 

KishPrime

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Ok, so philosophically, if you are designing rules for a game already created you either protect the game content, or you craft it into something more desirable for you. These are the only two choices. If you protect the game, then you set up a list of standards, like I did with my two-point criteria, and you only remove what needs to be removed to preserve an environment for competitive play. You aren’t concerned with protecting character choice. In fact, it doesn’t need to be protected. Good characters in the game are good, and bad are bad, and we’re ok with that because it’s the game. If you play a bad character, like a bad opening in chess, you’re stuck with the consequences.

Advanced slobs is perfect for this system; the beauty is that everyone has access to all the options (characters), and stages with more extreme adaptive elements are relegated to counterpick selections. If Green Greens is chosen, both players can choose Fox. Then it comes down to the players’ skill in the game. Yes, the Fox-main will have an advantage, but it’s his counter-stage! He’ll have an advantage anywhere he goes, if he plays it right. The point is that you set the maximum capability bar as high as you can, and give players as much room to develop their abilities as possible, and this includes multiple characters. In this case, the non-Fox main will have to develop a Fox that at least has a shot, or will have to take his best shot with his main, or whatever. It’s his choice how he chooses to develop, but the system gives him opportunities to develop.

Conversely, if you are interested in crafting a game that is more desirable to you, then the designers of the rules are rather arbitrarily shifting the metagame with every new rule made according to their whims. The elite decide if Fox is too favored here, or if this stage is “too weird,” or if the game could be just a little bit “better” (of course, a subjective quality) if we tweaked it differently. You’re no longer bound to any firm criteria, and players in the community will be affected by these decisions whether they agree or not. It’s much more likely that elements of the game will be trimmed by the lack of popularity rather than solid game theory. And the problem that keeps coming up: the more you trim out of the game, the lower the ceiling of game knowledge, the less room you leave for truly elite players to distance themselves from the pack.

This debate has evolved from the early FD-only vs. All-stages on to a much more subtle incarnation, but the essence is the same. Do you strive to preserve as much of the game as possible, serving as a steward and removing only what is necessary to keep the game viable? Or do you take the craftsman’s approach and whittle it into something that you feel is better?

The real problem, though, and the reason why most people don’t like my stance is that they fall in love with their characters, and somehow come up with the belief that they should never be “forced” to change by a “bad” stage. I’m not sure where it came from, but this is a huge reason why my stance is not very popular. It’s not like I haven’t compromised when working on national rulesets, so I understand the other side. I just find it to be a bit shallow, and I’d prefer that people pursue excellence in the game more than their characters.
 

Pink Reaper

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Oh man I just realized sami wasn't here for scar talking about how it takes more skill to only play one character and how it was less honorable to play multiple characters. I miss that argument I think that's gonna be my stance from now on lol
 

Skler

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Being forced to learn multiple characters is not cool, especially when the technical requirement for the character with the most maddening CP stages is the highest technical requirement in the game.

You can't expect everyone to have the ability to control a character like Fox. The game should not reward you for knowing how to play Fox, it should reward you for knowing how to play the game. The game is not Super Fox Brothers on Goddamn Green Greens Which is Arguably the Worst Stage in the Game: Melee. Yes, I know you can ban Green Greens but Corneria or Onett are almost equally Foxtarded. if you allow lots of stages you are almost saying "your Fox must be this good to not auto-lose at least one game each match against Fox players."

If it wasn't for that fact that CP stages are either really good for Fox or really good for Puff it wouldn't be a problem. As it is you're only forcing people to have a pocket Fox and a pocket Jiggs. Name two stages that are more beneficial for a different character than they are for them (that isn't awful like Venom or Peach's Castle).
 

SleepyK

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so, are we ready to do a vote? if slhoka is too busy, i guess i can take votes in the butt.


i guess we'd be voting on stages to remove/keep and our neutrals?
 

Cactuar

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We aren't voting on anything like this right now. We have some other wip that needs to be taken care of first. Patience.
 

KishPrime

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Being forced to learn multiple characters is not cool, especially when the technical requirement for the character with the most maddening CP stages is the highest technical requirement in the game.

You can't expect everyone to have the ability to control a character like Fox. The game should not reward you for knowing how to play Fox, it should reward you for knowing how to play the game. The game is not Super Fox Brothers on Goddamn Green Greens Which is Arguably the Worst Stage in the Game: Melee. Yes, I know you can ban Green Greens but Corneria or Onett are almost equally Foxtarded. if you allow lots of stages you are almost saying "your Fox must be this good to not auto-lose at least one game each match against Fox players."

If it wasn't for that fact that CP stages are either really good for Fox or really good for Puff it wouldn't be a problem. As it is you're only forcing people to have a pocket Fox and a pocket Jiggs. Name two stages that are more beneficial for a different character than they are for them (that isn't awful like Venom or Peach's Castle).
You're making a "preferential character"-centered argument. Suggesting that people should not have to learn Fox to do well is like suggesting that people should not have to learn a top-tier character to do well. Yet, in the current metagame we know that it is very difficult to win a major tournament with a non-top-tier character (I'm assuming most people agree that Jigglypuff is top tier, if it's not official yet).

You never have to play the best character on a given stage to win; it is simply more difficult if you do not pick the best character. As players, we do this all the time, even if it is not Mute City or Green Greens. We often stick with our mains on stages where they face disavantages. If your character faces a steep disadvantage on a stage and you stubbornly refuse to change your character, perhaps it is not the stage's fault at all? Also, I'll note that your whole argument only addresses counterstages, where the opponent will theoretically have an advantage anyway.

Taking a whole-game approach suggests that it is ideal not to focus your efforts on a single character, but rather to focus on learning the best ways to use stage geography alongside character options to achieve the best results. After all, this is really one of the huge pieces that makes Melee a unique fighting game. I did this for the first couple years I played Melee with great success. I used my non-Jigglypuff characters to win rounds regularly when I was counterpicked until the technicality of the game surpassed my ability/time/desire to practice.

You cite the difficulty of learning characters, and that's true, but that's no reason to put a cap on what top players are allowed to achieve. In citing this, you're basically saying "I and most people I know don't want to put in the time that would be required to learn multiple characters, so I'd rather limit the advantages that someone else could gain in such a system if they did put in the practice." I don't really know how to respond to that.
 

AXE 09

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Ok... I don't think you should have to be forced to play a top tier character, or even multiple characters. I think you should be encouraged to play whoever you want to play, whether that's only 1 character or multiple characters. How can that be fair to players like Hugs? Or Ka-master? Or even if they do play multiple characters, I don't feel you should HAVE to play a top tier one. What about DJ Nintendo, who plays so many characters, in yet his highest tiered character is Samus?

I don't like the idea of forcing someone to play a certain character or certain characters. I pretty much agree with Skler, for the most part.
 

Pink Reaper

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No one's forcing you to play multiple characters, but choosing not to is a self made limitation that realistically makes you worse than a player that DOES play multiple characters(unless those characters are like, Roy/Zelda or something) Choosing a non-top tier character is your right but you need to understand that that is a handicap and you cant expect the rules to change to make things easier for you.
 

SleepyK

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i feel as if forcing people to play multiple (and usually higher tiered characters) usually causes them to drift away from their original character choice for the better character. it happens all the time for low tier mains.
this is not to be confused
i main metaknight now

wouldn't the correct choice on any stage be fox? except maybe mute city.

having some of the former legal stages back would kind of be like "corneria? green greens? welp, pick fox or eat a ****"

the current "neutral" type stages provide the most opportunity for character vs character + player skill to even the playing field


also, it would be a drastic shift in terms of the metagame if we added a bunch of stages and encouraged learning multiple characters over being the master of your one character.
 

Skler

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Guys, since learning multiple characters should be important we should make Hyrule Temple a cp. If you pick somebody who can't keep up with Fox it's your own fault.

Plus it makes Falcon mains complain less (bam!).

Sarcasm aside, I know picking a low tier character is a handicap, but I think it's completely stupid to force a player to pick one specific character based on the stage. There's a difference between "I'll pick a low tier this time even though there are some disadvantages to doing that" and "I have to pick Fox because Green Greens somehow made it back and I stand no chance if the other player has a competent Fox."

One is player agency, the other is pick Fox or forfeit that game.

The whole game argument is actually starting to sound strange to me now that I think about it. By allowing all stages you are essentially negating 3/4ths of the characters, and characters provide far more variety than stages.

Let's look at Pichu. Pichu might be a bad character, but he's even worse when you throw in a low ceiling or walk off edges. He gains no benefit from the terrain because he has no way to control it. The only benefit he might get is the bthrow near edges, but nobody needs to approach him so lol who cares.

Now lets take a gander at Zelda. If Zelda didn't use her downB she gains nothing from walkoffs (and is RUINED by waveshines near them) and also lacks control of the terrain. Her opponent always has the advantage because he picks what section of the stage they will fight on.

Look at the low tiers and you see that none of them benefit from strange stage properties or hazards more than Fox and Puff/Peach (and Marth if you allow stages with giant walls in the middle, which is just a massive mistake for lots of reasons). You would ONLY see people picking top tiers if they want to win.

The new meme would be No Items, Fox only, Goddamn Green Greens. The problem is it would be far closer to correct than the current one.

tl;dr: If you allow more stages you'll see the game become more centralized because the best characters gain far more benefits from the terrain than their opponents do. More importantly, only a few of the best characters gain these massive advantages from the terrain. Low tiers and even most high tiers lack the control these characters posses, so you'll see a shift where all players learn 1 or 2 top tiers because otherwise they have no chance.
 

HugS™

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Our purpose should be to encourage variety in competitive strategy. Variety promotes interest in the game, which in turn lets the game stick around. It may seem backwards to minimize variety in the stage selection, but that is offset by the great variety that is present when you get rid of stages that promote centralized strategies or character selections.

You may think it'd be unwarranted of me to imply that character variety promotes interest in the competitive melee scene, but I feel it's an easy assumption to make based on my experience with smash. Furthermore, it is absolutely critical to cater to most community interests. You can draw parallels to other sports, where rules and policies are in place to enthrall the sports' enthusiasts. This keeps the sport alive.

Ban stages that centralize strategies, and you'll promote character and strategy variety.
 

ArcNatural

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I agree with the above in terms of character viability. It seems the less viable stages we deem, the more characters we see placing higher at nationals.

I almost feel like the new stage list should be FD, BF, DL, Yoshi's, FoD, Any banned stage both agree on (ie fox v falco if they want stadium it's fine). Still do stage striking. You can't ban a stage.
 

everlasting yayuhzz

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hmmmm

stadium isn't in the same league as the other CPs in terms of gamebreaking BS

i don't think that's a good idea arc, because what about DSR? if i'm playing falco vs some marth and i win on the first stage, let's say DL64. he takes me to FD and he wins by a large margin for obvious reasons. i take him to YS and he wins there too. i decide to go to BF instead and i win there. he can now take me back to FD and get another free win because i can't ban that stage that makes that matchup just as skewed as most CPs do to other matchups.

unless you are saying you want it to be you can't play on any stage you won on in that set, period.
 

Druggedfox

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I'd go with the last sentence as the general accepted version of it, though that might make for sets where you play on all 5 stages >_>
 

ArcNatural

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hmmmm

stadium isn't in the same league as the other CPs in terms of gamebreaking BS

i don't think that's a good idea arc, because what about DSR? if i'm playing falco vs some marth and i win on the first stage, let's say DL64. he takes me to FD and he wins by a large margin for obvious reasons. i take him to YS and he wins there too. i decide to go to BF instead and i win there. he can now take me back to FD and get another free win because i can't ban that stage that makes that matchup just as skewed as most CPs do to other matchups.

unless you are saying you want it to be you can't play on any stage you won on in that set, period.
Is this and the fact that Falcon sucks balls on FoD that make it hard to accept. But it is the most balance set of stages.

Makes me wonder if there would be any interest in an SC2 style tournament where the Stages are predetermined. It may be too game changing but it would allow preparation for character changes without counterpicks. It would be pretty interesting to see. It would also allow for possibly more stages if it's likable

IE:
*pools, best of 3*
Battlefield
Dreamland
Yoshi's Story

*Best of 5*
Battlefield
Dreamland
Yoshi's Story
FoD
FD

This doesn't allow for CP stages, only benefit would be loser picks character first. While people could complain about the stage set, the stages are fixed, so they have due time to prepare for such matchups. While I think this is unlikely to gain interest. I think it might be a cool idea.
 

Faab

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Set stages would be really good, if you can make a balanced order for let's say the top 8 characters in the tier list.

I'll think about it and post it tomorrow.
 

KishPrime

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Set stages have been proposed before. It's an option that I think anyone can run with for a tournament, but advanced slobs is such a good system, I have a hard time seeing what set stages add. Advanced Slobs just seems far better.

The other point is that when this has come up before, usually people just have fixed starters, and then advanced slobs goes as normal from there.
 
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