The New Stage Discussion Thread: Operation Lava Kill

[Slhoka]

I tried to think of a way to decide of this stage list, and I thought of two things (which I may have already said) :

1. If we're going to vote (and I think it's the most efficient way to do it), we have to vote for lists, not individual stages. Some stages work together to make sure the list isn't too unbalanced. That's what has been done so far to I'm not too worried about it.

2. I think we should consider releasing a regular list and a more liberal/conservative one, depending on the stages in the regular one. This way, TOs will be more inclined to change their ruleset idea to a MBR stage list. It would be good because we can ensure that the lists we release are somewhat balanced, even though they contains stages that some of us don't want (or lack stages that some of us want).

 

[Tero.]

I tried to think of a way to decide of this stage list, and I thought of two things (which I may have already said) :

1. If we're going to vote (and I think it's the most efficient way to do it), we have to vote for lists, not individual stages. Some stages work together to make sure the list isn't too unbalanced. That's what has been done so far to I'm not too worried about it.

2. I think we should consider releasing a regular list and a more liberal/conservative one, depending on the stages in the regular one. This way, TOs will be more inclined to change their ruleset idea to a MBR stage list. It would be good because we can ensure that the lists we release are somewhat balanced, even though they contains stages that some of us don't want (or lack stages that some of us want).

I suggested #2 like 8 months ago and nobody would listen.

 

[Marc]

The procedure kind of depends on who we're trying to serve with a new ruleset. I honestly don't believe at this point a MBR ruleset will unify the different regions and most people will come into this with an opinion they have defended about 30 times before. The 2009 MBR ruleset isn't that bad, although I can see the need to remove even more stages and go European. But yeah, is there any TO who would even implement a MBR stage list?

 

[Armada]

Tero: Not KJ64

Seriously the reason it´s not PS vs rockcrock.

I have seen that stage to many times and every time people try (and many time with succes) to time out people.

Stages how make it impossible for god chars shouldn´t be allowed.
CF need % lead once against some chars and then it´s over.

KJ64 is by for way too bad stage to me a stage for tournament matches.

Neutral
YS
BF
DL64
FD
FoD

Counterpick
PS

I know FoD or PS on neutral can be a discussion but i wonder what is more neutral with PS?
I guess i don´t have reallly god arguments for this one but a stage with hole and stupid changes feels a bit more like a cpunterpick then neutral.

The only bad thing i can see with FoD is the plattform changes but is that a really big problem?

i honestly think that combination of neutrals make it most balance for the good chars ( people don´t play really bad chars overall) and that´s what we should count.

With my ruleset
Marth- all stages except DL is good
Shiek- No bad stages
Fox/Falco- FD is the worst
Peach- DL and YS is not that good overall but not that bad either (ok dreamland against plattform camping people is really bad)
Falcon- FoD is bad the rest is god/really good.
Ganon- I haven´t play ganon that much so it´s maybe not my area but FD have no plattforms so that´s not good but i guess the other stage is god/ok at least
IC: feels like this char have most "different" views depending on play style (more than other chars i mean)

i am to lazy to wright more.

But it feels like PS give CF everything he want´s and make it a bit more "unbalance".

European standard ruleset ftw (is Plank a MBR member? If you are the ruleset for Pound5 should be changed if you ask me).

 

[Marc]

Also of note is that the 6 stages mentioned by Armada (FD, Battlefield, DL64, Fountain, Stadium, Yoshi's) tend to be used in Europe a lot in the configuration mentioned with 5 starters for stage striking and 1 counterpick. The stage in the counterpick position varies, for the Netherlands it's Yoshi's Story and I think it's usually that or Fountain.

Personally I also dislike Pokémon Stadium as a neutral stage and have done so for a long time. This is mostly because the transformations keep breaking up the match and waste time where people are just waiting for it to change back. The basic layout is good, but the edges and (lack of) height can be annoying.

FoD for the longest time was held back by complaints from Falco/Falcon/Ganondorf mains, but I wonder how much is left of that. Falco seems to do just fine there if you ask me, just has to auto-pilot less. >_>

 

[Tero.]

I dislike FoD as the 5th neutral stage because for me it significantly changes the playstyle.
You don't have the freedom to move/jump as you wish when the platforms are at certain heights.
Stadium pauses the game for a few seconds but then everything goes back to normal.
Also with FoD as a counterpick we have the same neutral stages in singles and doubles.

 

[Wobbles]

Still not sure why we even bother with the concept of counterpick specific stages to begin with. Wasn't the point that we didn't want a game randomly going to those levels at the start? That's also why we included random resets or random strikes, so that Peach didn't end up fighting Marth on YS. With the stage-striking we get players to go to a level that they're happiest with (or rather, least unhappy with), so if we accept that a level is worth keeping around at ALL, why not make it possible to play there first round? If you don't want to go there, you don't go there. If you REALLY don't want to go there, save your stage ban for it.

Also I agree with KJ64 being removed. I know that I've been able to completely time people out without a problem; Peach vs Puff appears to be impossible for Peach once Puff gets a lead unless Peach draws a beam-sword or bomb, connects with it, and in doing so regains the lead (which is pretty damn unlikely). I know Falcon can do it to many characters as well just by leaping around, and I'm pretty sure that Ganon's a big victim of this as well. Wouldn't surprise me if you can easily time out Samus too.

 

[Marc]

You need an uneven amount of stages for striking. The unelegant aspect of our stage list is that there are six.

 

[Deleted member]

uhh, not to ***** but whats wrong with the current list?

 

[Druggedfox]

You need an uneven amount of stages for striking. The unelegant aspect of our stage list is that there are six.

Is the 6 stage method I mentioned really that bad?

 

[Marc]

Doesn't ring a bell, can you link/quote it? I honestly haven't read the entire topic, just some pages here and there.

 

[Druggedfox]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11335823&postcount=20

That's the first post I made about it... can't remember how discussion progressed/if I said anything else useful.

I understand it introduces the random button, but that's only if both players can't agree etc etc I make most of the argument in that post.

 

[Marc]

I can see it work, but at the same time it's not like 5 starters + 1 counterpick doesn't work... it's just not elegant. Reintroducing the random button seems to run sort of counter to stage striking. If the players can't agree luck will essentially determine who gets his pick and that sort of loops us back to the original random select except you filter out some choices first.

 

[Druggedfox]

Mhhm, but I believe I addressed at some point why the current advantage given to the person who strikes first/last is just as bad if not worse than the random button.

Either way, I don't care particularly, I just think it'd fit the ideal better of no counterpicks.

Completely biased:

FoD is mad gay, PS for neutral

 

[Marc]

You should have a 1221 order so the person who strikes first also strikes last. I believe that's actually the standard (it is over here) and it's fair enough.

EDIT: Unless you think that it's unfair for the person to strike first (risking striking something the other person would strike) to make the final call on where the match is played.

SPOILER ALERT: It's always Battlefield.

 

[Druggedfox]

LOOOOOOOOL

Yeah I do 1221, and in the post I linked to...

I was just pointing out how since marth struck last, he got his choice of yoshi's story or battlefield, while the fox got no input. In the random method, either both players could agree, or they could random it; either way I found ultimately more fair than the marth simply having his personal preference.

 

[DoH]

My biggest complaint about the five is that there are 3 tri platform stages, so Marth and Sheik are generally at an advantage

 

[Deleted member]

My biggest complaint about the five is that there are 3 tri platform stages, so Marth and Sheik are generally at an advantage

why do those stages particularly favor marth and sheik?

also fod is WAY better than PS for a neutral. PS is like, fox/falco or wish you were fox/falco. fod is like "don't pick CF...maybe"

 

[DoH]

The platforms speed sheik up a ton and allow her to do needle tricks, dropping bairs, hit and run, etc. Platforms help Marth get tippers

 

[Deleted member]

The platforms speed sheik up a ton and allow her to do needle tricks, dropping bairs, hit and run, etc. Platforms help Marth get tippers

i'm trying to get you to see that other characters can do things with platforms that enable their gameplay also. stating that platforms benefit sheik/marth and others substantially less i think is a very outdated statement for the current metagame.

 

[DoH]

Yes, Fox and Falco can do some really good stuff with platforms; but the tri-platform arrangement on these three is what really helps Marth and Sheik. Marth can't tipper fsmash you through DL's platforms, but Fox and Falco can still drop through bair you, etc. The arrangement of the platforms is what uniquely gives these characters a specific advantage on the stage, because of the options it opens up. There's no central platform on Stadium, and DL's platforms are generally too high to do the stuff that these two characters like to do. Fox/Falco's platform games are transferable, while Sheik/Marth's are more stage dependent, so it's an advantage unique to that stage configuration.

 

[Divinokage]

Actually Marth can tipper fsmash through DL platform, it's just very precise position.

 

[Druggedfox]

I've done it before, but could not replicate it despite having a stationery opponent...

I think it's safe to say marth players can't do this consistently?

 

[Divinokage]

I think the opponent might have to crouch above the platform. Not 100% sure though.. it might affect the way the character's hitbox is.

 

[Wobbles]

I think I saw a Marth tipper a Bowser as he crashed onto the platform. Since there are many animations and attacks that cause models to poke through surfaces it's undoubtedly possible.

/sufficient derailment

 

[Skler]

Let's get back on track guys.

**** lava/acid. We're at war, pick a side.

FoD is amazing.

Every stage that isn't FoD or RC can leap off the nearest bridge. Except for you, Battlefield. You're alright.

Discuss.

 

[Skler]

LOOOOOOOOL

Yeah I do 1221, and in the post I linked to...

I was just pointing out how since marth struck last, he got his choice of yoshi's story or battlefield, while the fox got no input. In the random method, either both players could agree, or they could random it; either way I found ultimately more fair than the marth simply having his personal preference.

Whoa, just noticed this.

Fox can strike either Yoshi's or Battlefield. He doesn't have to let Marth pick. Just...strike FD and Yoshi's or FD and Battlefield. Don't be afraid of Dreamland or FoD, those stages rule. FD isn't even (that) bad for Fox!

I think 1221 is the best choice for striking. 1212 is just awful since you always want to strike last and striking first is the worst. It's like making placements in settlers of Catan go 12341234 instead of 12344321 (except opposite, you'd want to go first in 12341234 Catan no matter what whereas you'd always want to go last in 1212 Smash).

First should have benefits and drawbacks, as should second.

Double post, *****es.

 

[Druggedfox]

Maybe my fox is weird, but I'd rather be on yoshi's/battlefield than FoD anyday; I'll definitely ban FD, and the marth will definitely ban DL64. I was just pointing out that, for example, I might prefer yoshi's story over battlefield while marth prefers battlefield over yoshi's story. If this were the case, and neither of us wanted FoD, then whoever strikes first (or last, its the same thing) gets their personal preference. Having personal preference is one of the biggest parts of stage selection, so for one person to get preference seemed unfair to me.

Oh well, I don't think this idea will catch on, so I'll drop it. Let's just go ahead and get brinstar/RC banned; ideas?

 

[SleepyK]

idea: ban brinstar and RC

 

[wWw Dazwa]

idea: bring back pokefloats

 

[Pink Reaper]

I agree, Pokefloats was legit, it had WOBBUFFET!.

 

[SleepyK]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8684940&postcount=5742

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Let's get back on track guys.

**** lava/acid. We're at war, pick a side.

FoD is amazing.

Every stage that isn't FoD or RC can leap off the nearest bridge. Except for you, Battlefield. You're alright.

Discuss.

The way I liked it was the 5 neutrals + PS, RC and KJ64. However arguments brought up against KJ64 sound legit enough to me. As a result, doing 5 neutrals + PS looks like the best choice to me atm. I also have no problems if you want to switch PS with another stage in order to put it back into neutrals. Either way, Brinstar is definitely not entering my stagelist lol.

 

[Divinokage]

Alright go let's do it, neutrals only!

 

[Druggedfox]

The only problem with 5 stages only is the banning ordeal. If each person gets a ban, that leaves 3 stages. What do you do about 3/5s?

6 stages would probably be better, and you could restage strike/agree to a stage or something idk.

I like all neutrals otherwise =D

 

[Skler]

There is absolutely no argument against RC ever. Can somebody articulate why RC isn't fit for competitive play?

The only thing bad about it is temporary walk off edges. That's not a very big flaw seeing as you can't just camp the walk off and there are tons of slopes to make waveshining into blast zones difficult.

RC is like the FoD of counterpicks. It's awesome and balanced but people hate it due to personal preference. Come on, it's a stage where KIRBY has an insta-kill on grabs (+ suicide) at the very beginning. That's ****ing awesome.

 

[Druggedfox]

3. The Stage Must Not Change the Game- If a stage removes a large facet of the game (edgeguarding, actual approaches) it should immediately be eliminated. Ex. that really awful Kongo Jungle stage and anything with a walkoff edge.

Edgeguarding/gimping is eliminated for a majority of the time you're playing on the stage.

I mean, I'm sure there's more to say about it, but I feel like RC "removes a large facet of the game".

 

[Skler]

Edgeguarding is there during the entire ship section, and you could say you're edgeguarding for the majority of the moving part too (well, guarding the edges of platforms that are floating in space). The ship is a good thirty seconds of the stage's rotation, right? It's also the first section, so you're going to have at least a full minute of a game with real edges to edgeguard. The entire stage is all about keeping people off of platforms and in a bad position, however. It does lack traditional edges on most of it, but I think edgeguarding is fairly important on the stage.

Sure, edgeguarding gets pushed out of the spotlight a bit, but it's not uncommon to take two stocks from edgeguarding on RC. Actually, since the blast zones are so close on the ship I feel like lots of kills are gotten by getting somebody off the edge and smacking them while they come back. If you want to edgeguard you can play a dodgy and annoying way on other sections of the stage and wait until you get your advantage on the ship. There's no escaping combat on the ship like there are on other parts of the stage.

RC is the stage of the gimp though. Without being careful about getting near blast zones you can get killed at super low percents (sometimes it's worth it to hang out near the blast zone if your opponent will have to approach you eventually). It forces people to move around a lot and jockey for good positions so you won't get gimped.

I feel RC rewards each part of the game almost equally. Edgeguarding has its portion, mobility has a large part, combos are certainly facilitated, approaching is viable, defensive play is viable, everything is viable! Except Roy. Poor, poor Roy. Mother****er needs some aerials.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

There is absolutely no argument against RC ever. Can somebody articulate why RC isn't fit for competitive play?

The only thing bad about it is temporary walk off edges. That's not a very big flaw seeing as you can't just camp the walk off and there are tons of slopes to make waveshining into blast zones difficult.

RC is like the FoD of counterpicks. It's awesome and balanced but people hate it due to personal preference. Come on, it's a stage where KIRBY has an insta-kill on grabs (+ suicide) at the very beginning. That's ****ing awesome.

Depending on how you wanna interpret it, RC can interfere with normal gameplay by forcing players to follow its pattern. The pro about it is that the pattern isn't random. However it's still very influencing, expecially for characters who lack agility. I'm fine with the stage but I can understand complains about it as well. Also, it might switch the overall balance of the stagelist in favor of Fox/Falco/Puff/possibly others.

 

[Skler]

There are legit complaints, but maneuverability always matters anyways. RC does put a lot more emphasis on it (well, maneuverability and the ability to recognize powerful positions and take them), but every stage puts its own twist on gameplay. Most are just more subtle. PS is the only legal stage that is less suble, but that's because it puts the emphasis on "stand in a defensive spot and do nothing" for 30 seconds randomly.

RC has a lot of merits, I find it nice that there's a stage that rewards positioning and forethought more than "ka pow, 0-death combo that works regardless of DI, *****." Not that there's no room for awesome combos on RC, there are just limited portions where it behaves like a normal stage. The classic combos don't always work on the carpet area because you're fighting on a series of small platforms.

I don't think Puff does too hot on RC, lowish ceilings a lot of the time could screw with her, and her usual stupid "I'ma bair you forever because you have nowhere to go" can be avoiding by using vertical movement or giving ground at the same rate the stage is moving. Fox has some advantages on the stage, but he can't combo as well on it either, and his straight up aerial combat is lacking. He has good aerials, it's just that most of them belong near the ground. It's definitely a net gain for Fox (I don't know about Falco, he's not quite as maneuverable), but no more than PS or Circle Camp 64.