The New Stage Discussion Thread: Operation Lava Kill

[SleepyK]

i think we need a current active MBR member list before we make a vote on it. i believe slhoka is working on that!

also i STILL stand by my pound 4 rule suggestion:

i love pokefloats
it has psyduck
please keep it legal
but only when psyduck is on screen

 

[Druggedfox]

I thought the 85 member list was posted already

 

[Marc]

Correct, the member list is up to date.

Revisiting the stage list might best be held off till after the tier list, but at the same time you're always free to make a poll. Whatever happens, it shouldn't be done half-*****.

We could also have a public application round for MBR membership so new members don't have to be recommended internally all the time. Just a thought.

 

[Druggedfox]

I would personally opt for stage list before tier list because...

Well, the stage list is actually applicable to tournaments and has the potential to actually make a difference in upcoming tournaments.

The tier list isn't doing much besides ranking characters.

But either way works, just a thought.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

I would personally opt for stage list before tier list because...

Well, the stage list is actually applicable to tournaments and has the potential to actually make a difference in upcoming tournaments.

The tier list isn't doing much besides ranking characters.

But either way works, just a thought.

I agree on this too. The stage list is actually useful for something.

 

[Marc]

The tier list shouldn't take more than a month really and is close to ready to go, not to mention it's basically a way of rectifying our earlier release.

It's been noted that people want to revisit the stages, so we'll have to think up a format for that too. I'm guessing we'll simply have a bunch of polls on potential discrepancies between our current opinions and outstanding recommendations. With this even moreso than the tier list it's important for membership to be as complete as possible, but if there are no complaints at some point it can be assumed to be satisfactory.

 

[Skler]

The acid is still stupid.

How can nobody see this? Saying "memorize the timing" is just poor form to me. Do you honestly expect people to know exactly when the acid is going to rise or fall? A stage shouldn't force me to memorize something to remain competitive. The acid might as well be random with how many people are willing to take the time to memorize its pattern.

Is memorization of a stage hazard a skill we want to reward in tournament? I don't think it is. Having basic stage knowledge is a given (I know PS is going to turn into a big mountain at times, everyone who's played the game for a while knows that), but having ultra detailed knowledge such as "the acid is going to rise to the top platform at 2:48, time to move to the top" is just crazy. I see tournament games where the timer isn't even on because players forget about it. We should reward people for playing Super Smash Brothers: Melee, not for playing The Floor is Lava: Turbo Edition.

Sure, the shaking screen is a good indicator, but I personally never know just how high it'll rise in one movement. It catches me by surprise sometimes because I ban it so often. If I didn't have to ban it I could spend my ban on something else. Something that's just personal preference instead of a complete character and game screw.

I hate you so much, Brinstar. I do love your depths though.

 

[Druggedfox]

As soon as the tier list project is finished... we should work on getting brinstar banned =P

 

[Ignatius]

Is memorization of a stage hazard a skill we want to reward in tournament? I don't think it is. Having basic stage knowledge is a given (I know PS is going to turn into a big mountain at times, everyone who's played the game for a while knows that)

Just like how anyone who spends time on Brinstar knows the timing of the acid.

The worst stage by far for stage memorization is still Story, and that's still in the starting stage pool.

 

[Druggedfox]

How is yoshi's story bad for memorization? Randall's cycle is exactly every 5 seconds.

 

[Ignatius]

Which means every 5 seconds you need to know not only what side hes at, but where in his rotation he is. I don't see how you can not think that is way more mentally taxing than some acid timings.

Not to mention the actual random shy guys which can give you something to DIm off of and live better if you're hit into them.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Which means every 5 seconds you need to know not only what side hes at, but where in his rotation he is. I don't see how you can not think that is way more mentally taxing than some acid timings.

Not to mention the actual random shy guys which can give you something to DIm off of and live better if you're hit into them.

Neither Randall nor the Shy Guys are as much influencing as acid. Excluding PC VS M2K matches I haven't really seen Randall save people so often. Even lower is the amount of DI screwing I've seen from the shy guys. Acid doesn't even need to rise to its full height to save people on the other hand. And if it does, it can save a player on any position on the stage while Randall in the best case scenario will save people only on either the right or left side.

Also I don't remember this exactly, but the timer actually does give you indication on which side Randall is going to appear. When the last cypher is on 5 Randall appears, the side is determined by whether the second last cypher is even or odd. As ****3d up as it might look like, it's still a theoretically exploitable prediction system while I haven't seen anyone developing a similar system for Brinstar yet (let alone the fact that nobody will want to take the time to learn either of the two).

 

[Divinokage]

Well you just memorize where the acid will come up once the stage start shaking, it's pretty simple.. there's no way I'll get hit by the acid if I'm alone.. but obviously if I get hit and then the acid is there then of course ill get hit. To me, it's super predictable.

 

[Druggedfox]

If the "tens" digit is odd, randall is on the right side. That is to say, if the seconds read: 1x, 3x, 5x etc... he's on the right. If it's even, he's on the left.

Also, randall doesn't usually cause 0-death combos.

 

[Ignatius]

Neither Randall nor the Shy Guys are as much influencing as acid. Excluding PC VS M2K matches I haven't really seen Randall save people so often. Even lower is the amount of DI screwing I've seen from the shy guys.

You're right, I've never seen Brinstar affect a match except for when it does too, guess we can call this a closed case.

Acid doesn't even need to rise to its full height to save people on the other hand. And if it does, it can save a player on any position on the stage while Randall in the best case scenario will save people only on either the right or left side.

It can at any height yes, but again its also not random at all. You're given visual ques on par to PS.

Also I don't remember this exactly, but the timer actually does give you indication on which side Randall is going to appear. When the last cypher is on 5 Randall appears, the side is determined by whether the second last cypher is even or odd. As ****3d up as it might look like, it's still a theoretically exploitable prediction system while I haven't seen anyone developing a similar system for Brinstar yet (let alone the fact that nobody will want to take the time to learn either of the two).

I don't know how you haven't seen anyone, but the lava is in a very set pattern of how high it rises, its very obvious and even easier to keep track of than precisely where the cloud is, which is what you need to do, not just which side. Keeping track of which side the cloud is on is pretty simple, but precisely its location in the rotation is not. The lava isn't tricky at all.

 

[Skler]

The cloud positoning isn't really a big deal though. Who cares if the cloud is on the right side? Are you going to get hit off just because it's over there? No, the cloud does not change the match to the point where knowing where it will be actually changes who will win. The acid DOES change the match enough to do this. If you know it's going to rise to the top at a certain time you can prepare yourself to defend the top.

It's stupid as hell to gain a large positional advantage (especially since it also removes any OTHER positional advantages that may have been had) because you memorized a stage. Actually, I'd say it's not just annoying, it's adverse to competition itself. Why bother fighting for a position when you know it'll be taken away in 10 seconds? Just wait for the stage to get to a point when your memorization will come in handy and win from that.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I've been killed more times by Randal than anything else in smash. Keep in mind I play with Brinstar and Onett on Random.

 

[SleepyK]

i believe aldywn posted two matches where the lava rose and fell differently at the same time in two matches
apparently the lava does follow a pattern but begins at a random point in the pattern
so you have to watch how the lava falls the first time and then it follows through with the rest of the pattern?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Yeah that's how it works.

I had a hard time explaining it to someone the other day

"You mean it has different patterns?"

"No it has one set pattern with like 16 stages and wont allways start on the same one."

"So then it's random"

"No because it does go in sequence from there and by the 3rd time the lava moves it should be obvious which section it's on since thats the one that will be different"

"But that's too hard to memorize"

"Thats why the screen also shakes because we're all lazy"

 

[SleepyK]

so.. how is a 16 stage process comparable to randall?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Memorizing either of them isnt really applicable in realistic play. Its great if you can name off hand where randall will be at any time when looking at the timer but it's something that requires you to take your attention off both you and your opponent. Moreso attempting to work your way through the actual lava phases via memory is pretty much impossible mid match. At least the lava has a full screen warning when its moving, Randall only has the elephant

As i've said before this is probably the only time ever that Brawl has something up on Melee as Brinstar in Brawl has a set pattern.

 

[SleepyK]

Memorizing Randall is completely applicable in realistic play. People who know how to time him do it all the time. I think Toasty put it best when he said that "you can adjust your recovery and your edgeguards appropriately."

I understand that stating this makes it seem like you could just do the same with the 16 stage acid levels, but like you said, having to recognize 16 different levels on the fly and then determining what level is currently being represented is a far too distracting task to execute in real time. with Randall, you just associate numbers with locations and it just takes a brief glance at the clock. he follows a set pattern no matter what. Learning how to time Randall is generally not terribly useful because you can react to him anyway. attempting to land on Randall usually just causes the edgeguarding player to shift their edgeguard to accommodate him, but not in a radical way that could kill the edgeguarder.

So, the lava is in fact is random at the start of the match. Then you have to perform an impossible to process mid-match forced recognition of the stage's 16 different levels while focusing on fighting your opponent, dealing with the hitbox extending properties of the fleshy parts, and the unusual geography of the stage. Even if you are used to these things, they still come into play. The acid (that does lava damage) can also easily combo you to kill percents, gimp your recovery, and kill you if you misinterpret which of the 16 stages it is on.

why is this stage legal again?

it's 5 am at mlg dallas and i can't articulate. i hope i got my point across.

 

[Pink Reaper]

The thing is you actually DONT have to memorize the lava patterns because you get a full screen warning of when it's going to move.

Also Randall actually tends to kill me when im attempting to sweetspot on the left side. Nothing like having that ****ing cloud pop his head up and be like "Oh were you trying to grab THIS ledge? Sorry "

 

[SleepyK]

so you automatically assume it's probably going to rise to the top initially?

then afterwards you just kinda guess and maybe you die because it goes too low or smth

so at that point it might as well be random because you don't know what it's going to be next

 

[Pink Reaper]

Lava will always rise to Below Blast Line->Slightly Above Blast Line->Below Stage->One of the two possibilities above stage->Full Submersion.

The two possibilities are partial submersion of the right side of the stage or full submersion of the bottom part of the stage(all three platforms not submerged)

Also of note, when the lava raises to fully submerge the bottom part of the stage it raises much more quickly than if it only partially submerges it. Its rather easy to see coming.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

You're right, I've never seen Brinstar affect a match except for when it does too, guess we can call this a closed case.

I think I expressed myself wrong here but fortunately Drugged Fox has already answered for me: in the worst case scenario Randall saves people and shy guy block projectiles/screw DI. Acid on the other hand hits/stuns/combos players and covers a far greater portion of the stage.

I don't know how you haven't seen anyone, but the lava is in a very set pattern of how high it rises, its very obvious and even easier to keep track of than precisely where the cloud is, which is what you need to do, not just which side. Keeping track of which side the cloud is on is pretty simple, but precisely its location in the rotation is not. The lava isn't tricky at all.

After spending several time watching matches on Brinstar (Man, is it tedious..) I'm starting to think there is indeed some kind of pattern behind but I still haven't found an explanation on my original objection:

My argument on the other hand is this. Take a look at this two matches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huhW9kFxWhI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNy_gjgY6I4

Look at 0:58. In the first video, acid is calm. In the second video, it suddendly raises hitting CalleW in the process. Hence my belief it behaves randomly.

EDIT: Ok nevermind, I had not seen page 10 of discussion had been created.

 

[Druggedfox]

Sleepyk:

Randall and Acid are the same, accept it. You know it's trueeeeeeeee

How's MLG dallas? Have you gotten tired of this yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aItY1Z--Vzo

???

 

[Skler]

Sleepyk pretty much just won the thread. To elaborate on Randall vs acidlava

Ok memorization team, the acid is random enough that no sane human being will bother learning all the variations while actually playing a competitive game of Super Smash Brothers: Melee for the Nintendo Gamecube Entertainment System. 16 levels with the stage starting at a random point? I want to see you play a match and call out where the lava will reach every single time the stage starts to shake. Yes, even the first time it shakes. If you can do that then the acid is just as easy to predict as Randall. Actually it's still not because it required more thought than "what two numbers are up there, let me take a gander at that clock" but it's at least semi-close.

Also come on PR, Randall never straight up KILLS you, he can screw up your sweetspot but he won't actively kill you unless you're playing Link, try to hookshot, land on Randall just as he's about to go into the stage and SKRAAA! out of panic. That has killed me. It's still my fault though since I saw him and could just not SKRAAA!ed. He could have helped my recovery!

Then again, I honestly don't think YS should be a neutral either. I wanted it gone slightly more than I wanted PS gone. Randall is pretty simple to follow though, I just use Pak-E-Derm to figure out where he's likely to be. No need to even see a clock for Skler and it takes 0 seconds to learn that "whatever side Pak-E-Derm is on is the side Randall will be appearing on soon." It's not precise, but it's **** effective in knowing if I should be ready for divine Randall intervention.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Lava never straight kills you ever. It can hit you up and your opponent can take advantage of it and go for a follow up but just like Randal it never outright kills you.

Also the Pak-E-Derm thing was a joke, it doesnt actually show you where Randal is lol.

 

[Skler]

Lava never straight kills you ever. It can hit you up and your opponent can take advantage of it and go for a follow up but just like Randal it never outright kills you.

Also the Pak-E-Derm thing was a joke, it doesnt actually show you where Randal is lol.

Are you sure? Randall only comes out on the Pak-E-Derm side, at least when I'm paying attention to Pak-E-Derm. Maybe it's just me forgetting whenever everybody's favorite elephant was wrong, but the few times I bother looking at him he seems to be right.

The lava might as well straight up kill you at mid/highish percents.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Do you get killed every time you fall into the barrel in KJ 64 as well Skler?

Also no, Pak-E-Derm doesnt show you where Randall is that was just some old school Sliq trolling that people fell for lol.

 

[SleepyK]

Lava never straight kills you ever. It can hit you up and your opponent can take advantage of it and go for a follow up but just like Randal it never outright kills you.

but

I think I expressed myself wrong here but fortunately Drugged Fox has already answered for me: in the worst case scenario Randall saves people and shy guy block projectiles/screw DI. Acid on the other hand hits/stuns/combos players and covers a far greater portion of the stage.

yes

Sleepyk:

Randall and Acid are the same, accept it. You know it's trueeeeeeeee

oh, ok. ya lava never gimps your recovery cause if you misjudge what it's going to do its your fault shoulda known all 16 stages and have been keeping track of them from the beginning of the match

Also the Pak-E-Derm thing was a joke, it doesnt actually show you where Randal is lol.

it syncs up initially then desyncs after 30 seconds or something like that.

Do you get killed every time you fall into the barrel in KJ 64 as well Skler?

yes another counterpick stage to compare to a counterpick

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Thank god acid doesn't kill anymore like it used to do in smash 64, where brinstar was even more annoying. In any case, the pattern topic remains unclear to me as on the one hand I can trust the people's judgement on acid having a pattern but on the other one the fact that acid can be in different places on a specific moment of two separate matches is still a big deal. I'll just consider it a semi-random factor for now.

Leaving aside for a moment the problem related with patterns I think we should also focus on the influence acid actually does. It's not like it can just "hit you up and your opponent can take advantage of it and go for a follow up", its influence can create completely new, unexpected situations depending on what's going on (e.g. screw a recovery or screw an edgeguard). Do not underestimate the consequence of what a single hit can mean at high levels of gameplay (it's not a coincidence if Isai says don't get hit lol).

 

[Skler]

Do you get killed every time you fall into the barrel in KJ 64 as well Skler?

Also no, Pak-E-Derm doesnt show you where Randall is that was just some old school Sliq trolling that people fell for lol.

I almost never die in the barrel, actually. I'm surprised so many people have trouble with it (I think it's because of it being out of camera so **** often, but I just always assume I'll get sucked into it).

Sliq is way too powerful of a troll. I miss him.

Anyways, the lava is super bad and covers the entire stage. Actually, I'll let sleepyk and Aldwyn handle things from now on. One hit due to a stage hazard, especially one that stuns for that long, is a huge deal. The lasers on Corneria are horrible and they can't even hit moving characters (I think...).

 

[Pink Reaper]

No i mean when the barrel shoots you up or whatever direction does your opponent use their magical powers to 0-Death you every time?

 

[Sliq]

Hai gaiz wuts goin ahn

 

[ArcNatural]

I think USA needs to adopt the Europe stage list.

Just use the European standard ruleset.

Neutrals
FD
DL
BF
YS
FoD

Counterpick
PS

The only change I would make is no bans, and Stadium has to be agreed on by both parties.

 

[pockyD]

if anything has to be agreed upon, it's effectively banned

so just the 5 stages

 

[ArcNatural]

if anything has to be agreed upon, it's effectively banned

so just the 5 stages

I get that, I just really like stadium for most dittos and obviously fox/falco/falcon matchups. I would personally be fine with just the 5 stages though.

I forget if the rule states that any banned stage can be played if both sides agree to it. I'm pretty sure it does though so I'm fine with that.

 

[Sliq]

Turning Japanese I think I'm turning Japanese I really think so.










































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