The NEW Snake Matchup Discussion: #2 - Olimar

ZTD | TECHnology · May 14, 2012

CHARACTER DISCUSSION #2: OLIMAR

BBR MU Chart says: Slight Disadvantage (-1)
Snake Boards say: In Progress

Otacon said:
Snake! Our next target is Captain Olimar. It's said that he utilizing tiny organisms called "Pikmin" .oth for offense and defense. It's said each color Pikmin has different attributes and strengths and they he is able to maintain a powerful defensive game with them. This one could be difficult even for you. Discuss with your fellow Snakes, strategies for dealing with him and his army,

Information we need:

-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Snake's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-Before we begin though, there are some ground rules that need to be covered, and these will apply to all MU rediscussion threads.

GROUND RULES (Credit to Aerodrome)

1) Avoid large amounts of bias please. For example, you might consistently destroy Meta Knight, but that does NOT mean the matchup is +4 in Snake's favour. Do NOT let a single victory over somebody be a basis for your contribution.

2) Keep the scaling for matchups consistant. We will be using the -4 to +4 scale to summarize the matchup. Here is a rundown of the scale:

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Keep in mind, the first number in the ratio will always refer to Snake. Please do your best to pick one number, rather than something in between two integers. There are NO other possible matchup ratios besides -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, and +4.

Finally, it is a difficult task, but please try to contribute as much as possible!

~ Gheb ~ · May 14, 2012

SFA Smiley · May 14, 2012

That pic made me think I was on the Falcon boards so I was like: WTF THIS MATCHUP IS NOT EVEN ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

and then i clicked on the youtube links and was like: snake? ohhhh

lol

Elyssa Xey Hexen · May 14, 2012

I always thought the match-up was completely doable. A pain, but doable.

Either cook your nades or stop picking them up. Throwing them does nothing as they simply get thrown over his head. Far Toss or mid toss most of the time. Completely ignore pikmin except any purple ones which get thrown. I wonder if there is a good way for Snake to kill purple pikmin. Aren't they on an HP scale and a high enough percent attack will KO them?

ZTD | TECHnology · May 14, 2012

Reds have 9% health and are immune to fire damage and explosives.
.
Yelows have 9% health and are immune to electric attacks.

Blues have 14% health.

Whites have 4%

Purples have 15%

All attacks that deal only 1% don't affect Pikmin.

Basically we don't have any safe moves that will kill all types of Pikmin. Even Blues survive a Up Tilt if it isn't fresh. And while Up Tilt will get Pikmin off you, do you REALLY wanna stale it when its hard enough to hit Olimar anyway? This is one of the main reasons Snake has issues in this MU. Its combination of being outcamped and not having immediate responses to getting latched Pikmin off without staling a vital move. And as a result while he is being camped, he WILL take latch damage throughout the match.

However, we aren't helpless. Most Snakes that aren't well versed in the MU panic when they see how much damage they take so fast. You somewhat have to ignore percents here and not get stressed out. Olimar thrives of stressing opponents out and spooking them into awkwardly responding. Its because we have to approach this MU differently is why most Snakes hate this MU.

More to come later.

Ralph Cecil · May 14, 2012

Didn't Razer and Dabuz say this was a 55:45 Olimars favor after their MM? Also what stage should we be CPing to? o-o

Dabuz · May 14, 2012

Snake should use grenades to force Olimar into awkward positions. You CANNOT outcamp Olimar as Snake, but you can make and punish openings, correctly following up is pretty much a free stock.

Attila_ · May 14, 2012

dabuz said:
Snake should use grenades to force Olimar into awkward positions. You CANNOT outcamp Olimar as Snake, but you can make and punish openings, correctly following up is pretty much a free stock.

this is very true.

stay away until you can force an opening, then approach. approaching while oli is in position is suicide, and staying away completely will eventually cause you to lose.

stay outside oli's range until your close enough to punish a sh or jump, then come in, and don't let him go. fighting inside oli's grab range is very good for snake, and we threaten and punish hard.

it's just that getting into that position can be very difficult. that and oli combos/juggles us extremely well, and a good read with a purple will kill us incredibly early.

snake can win, but he's definitely on the back foot.

**Havok** · May 15, 2012

Random thoughts and things about the MU.

When I first started playing the MU I thought it was BY FAR OLIMAR advantage…
But nowadays I feel like it might be even if the snake plays the stage right. Here’s a rundown of how the MU kinda plays…

As mentioned earlier people do freak out about the percentage rising REALLY quick but you’re Snake. It doesn’t matter. The only thing that will kill early-ish is a purple up smash… but all you have to do is shield. Who cares if he grabs you! Unless you’re at 140% lol

While you can’t exactly outcamp Olimar there are holes in his short hop/Full Hop-pikmin throwing:

-SH grenade Grenade Toss
-Double Jump Grenade Toss

You can cook them to get a different reaction. ONLY throw ONE grenade because if you take out the 2nd he gets a free grab or worse a free upsmash.

Lobbing a hard grenade on the floor nets an explosion if he Fsmashes (which is kinda often and moreso if you’re a dash attack happy Snake).

Remember kids, you can shield to have Pikmin go through you, I jab the red, yellow, and blues and shield the purples/whites. Jab them as them come IN, not when they’re on you. Pointless and you’re already taking dmg. Jabbing them also refreshes things so its nice.

C4 in the middle of the stage controls how close Olimar can get in. If he runs to try and grab, free Ftilt. FREE. This is one of the main things about the MU that I learned from my little talk with SHU, you need that c4 to keep things in check, you can even cypher randomly just to place it in the middle of the stage. If on battlefield, then place it on the edges of the platforms.

If Olimar is horizontally away from you in the air you can Nair (he’ll whistle, who cares) you’ll land and can follow up with Ftilt/Uptilt/Grab.

If he’s above you, Upsmash makes it REALLY hard for him to land because not only does he have to deal with the projectile, now he has to land into you as well. Upair does ok but think of it strictly as a dmg source because he’ll probably whistle it. While in the air leave a trail of grenades behind you as you get under him making landing even harder.

While downthrow opportunities are nice to rack up dmg, you can do even more dmg with backthrows and fthrows (who would have thought these throws would have use lol) towards the edges of the stage. Just keep him there, its really hard for him to get through stuff without exposing himself.

One thing that’s tricky about Olimar that I’ve said before and I’ll say it again. His roll is so bad its actually pretty good. To get downthrow reads you literally have to stand still. STILL. If walk, it’s over. Just stand still. Olimar can roll past a Ftilt and punish hard if you try to pressure with Ftilt 1 (which is really good since his shield and grab aren’t very good at stopping this unless he PS).

Now remember, since Olimar is very light the goal is to get him about 105%-110% for uptilt to work out. I try to use Uptilt semi early in the stock, start jabbing pikmin and using grenades to get him to that percent then back to uptilt.

When it comes to landing it’s not that hard, he’s not very quick on the ground so a pivot actually does good in this MU (although he can do reads with UPB). If he tries to upair you, press B and you’ll both explode, you’ll take an extra percent (who cares) but it puts him closer to the 100% mark. Landing with bair only on Emergencies/mixup. I usually despise this option but it works out because I never use it.

Jab is REALLY good up close, if he tries to grab he gets hit. If he tries to shield into grab, Ftilt. If nothing, keep pressure going. He’ll probably roll behind you which can be tricky but you can roll away as well resetting the situation. This where I get my Dair trigger finger ready in case.

Backwards grenade walk helps vs Fsmash happy Oli’s.

#1 thing to remember, just chip away. Unless you have momentum, you’ll usually only get a grenades worth of dmg at a time.

#2 don’t freak out. Just shield pikmin, jab them as they come in the air, cypher and place that c4 in the middle!

#3 Pressure Olimar when the opportunity presents itself. Jab, Ftilt, grab.

The biggest thing about Snake in general that I’ve observed is the majority of our errors come from Dash Attack. It’s an amazing tool but I think too many Snakes rely on it, it’s easy to see coming and Olimar WILL wreck you for it from a read. It’s ok on his landings but I would rather do other stuff. Good vs his short hop throws but predictable and so on and so forth.

Someone posted that rolling behind Oli into buffer jab isn’t a bad idea, it sounds horrible on paper but plays out ok as a mixup IRL. Try it, SHU does it as well.

When cornered don’t be afraid to get out with cypher!

If you have a grenade near you on the floor, pick it up and run with it, he might try and grab you which could net you a free hit.

If he lands with nair and you manage to shield, free Dair.

If you aren't using grenades you're losing.

Well that’s all I can think of right now, I have more notes but I gotta look at them again.

~ Gheb ~ · May 15, 2012

Ralph Cecil said:
Didn't Razer and Dabuz say this was a 55:45 Olimars favor after their MM? Also what stage should we be CPing to? o-o

Even if he did say that he'd have no reason to think so as far as I'm aware.

Stages? Up to personal preference. BF can be very rewarding if you're good at controlling platforms with grenades but it also helps him camp under it ... FD is more straightforward and I generally like it vs Olimar because of the lack of platforms. SV is somewhere in the middle. I personally don't care about which stage I'm starting on against Olimar because all of those 3 are fine.

If there are stages you need to avoid I guess it's between Castle and Yoshi's. Out of these two I find Castle to be the bigger problem and it seems like a stronger stage for Oli in general. Yoshi's is kind of popular for Olimar because the ghost can save him at times but I feel like it's a minor issue and you should only ban it if you're really fond of playing on Castle Siege. CP ... if your region still has Rainbow legal I'd take him there. Although Olimar is underrated as hell on that stage I feel like Snake is so broken on it that it doesn't matter. If Rainbow isn't legal then Lylat is naturally a good stage for Snake and should be your #1 place to look at for counterpicks.

dabuz said:
Snake should use grenades to force Olimar into awkward positions. You CANNOT outcamp Olimar as Snake, but you can make and punish openings, correctly following up is pretty much a free stock.

While a "free stock" is possible I feel like it's an exaggeration because it still requires a really good read or two or a poor defensive decision on Olimar's part.

It's true though that Snake can go in really badly. Like, my mindset when I go into this match-up is "if you get in on Olimar and don't do half his stock worth of damage you're not playing the match-up right. If you don't deal 50% from dthrow chases and follow-ups, offstage hits and juggles then you're doing it wrong". It really has helped me a lot.
Despite what a monstrosity of a character Olimar is in the neutral position he is VERY vulnerable when he's in a disadavantaged position and Snake is super-broken when he's in the advantaged position. I feel like a lot of Snake players don't make use of it because in many match-ups it's enough to sit back and let grenades do the work as soon as you get the hit confirm. Against Olimar you're supposed to do the opposite - as soon as you're not in neutral anymore you need to keep on staying in your zone and try to beat the living crap out of him until he gets to reset the situation [or you manage to get the KO in]. The reward for Olimar is minimal because there's not much more to hit you with than a gtfo aerial ... which means that the risk for Snake is really small and the potential reward is HUGE.

I feel like the match-up is "even" simply because both characters should be going back and forth when playing it a lot but at the same time few matches between Olimar and Snake are actually going "even" because of how badly they can **** one another. If you watch Razer vs dabuz there's almost no such thing as a "close" match ... it's often one getting two-stocked or close to JV2 at least and then the other one returning the favor in the next match. But up until the last match they went pretty much completely even overall, which is also what I think this match-up should be.

Ralph Cecil · May 16, 2012

Has this been posted on the Olimar boards yet?

~ Gheb ~ · May 17, 2012

So ... why aren't we discussing this match-up? If you believe the majority of Snake players then this match-up should be kinda bad and yet nobody points out what issues they have with Olimar and somebody has yet to respond to the points Havok and I made. This match-up has been played plenty times by now so there should be a lot more information to share.

Shmot, Razer, Dabuz, Fatal, RichBrown, Denti namesearch this and tell us what you know!

etecoon · May 17, 2012

My big issue with this matchup is that I see Olimar's losing to things like getting hard read three times in a row and then waking up directly into snake fsmash for no reason. Snake destroys sloppy, scared play and it just seems like Olimar players react badly the moment they're taken out of their flowchart. I think it's close to even but I can't go all the way when I feel like Olimar players beat themselves more than Snake players beat them

Neon! · May 17, 2012

etecoon said:
My big issue with this matchup is that I see Olimar's losing to things like getting hard read three times in a row and then waking up directly into snake fsmash for no reason. Snake destroys sloppy, scared play and it just seems like Olimar players react badly the moment they're taken out of their flowchart. I think it's close to even but I can't go all the way when I feel like Olimar players beat themselves more than Snake players beat them

That match is not typical of most olimar-snake sets. Brood should have camped more and snake should never be killing with fsmash. I agree with the 55-45 oli's favor ratio, the trouble is translating that into matchup chart ratios. I still lean towards +1 oli but I could agree to even.

Dabuz · May 17, 2012

Neon! said:
That match is not typical of most olimar-snake sets. Brood should have camped more and snake should never be killing with fsmash. I agree with the 55-45 oli's favor ratio, the trouble is translating that into matchup chart ratios. I still lean towards +1 oli but I could agree to even.

PS. Don't try to translate the MU ratio into the Chart's rating system. 0 = even, +1 / -1 means small advantage / disadvantage. Think about that when deciding on a ratio.

~ Gheb ~ · May 18, 2012

Neon! said:
That match is not typical of most olimar-snake sets. Brood should have camped more and snake should never be killing with fsmash. I agree with the 55-45 oli's favor ratio, the trouble is translating that into matchup chart ratios. I still lean towards +1 oli but I could agree to even.

Yo, do you even play this character? Like, I only know you as that DK crusader who's not OK with everybody 'underrating' his character. No offense but what are you doing here? This is a match-up discussion and you offer literally nothing to these discussions. All you do is chime in and slap some number on it - usually even, or in the opponent's favor - and then disappear again without having contributed anything. Are you just here to troll or do you actually care about doing stuff?

If you know stuff about the character and his match-up why don't you share it? You can't have the opinion that Brood is 'playing it wrong' unless you know how the match-up is played right and tell / show us. And you do know that that's the Olimar that took a MASSIVE poop on @lly's Snake at Apex '10 as well? How can he be this bad at the match-up? He didn't get fsmashed in game 2 and still lost.
How can you 'camp more' against a Snake player that isn't an idiot and tries to camp back massively?

Be a bit more constructive plz.

mikeray4 · May 21, 2012

I honestly feel like this MU is even.

lusiris · Jun 1, 2012

The main reason I feel like it's +1 olimar is that Snake has to work a little harder to win this match up. Olimar outcamps us and we have work around the pikmin. We can both kill each other pretty fast but when it comes down to it we have to deal with the pikmin and work around them. It's not the other way around. Olimar can effectively cancel out most of our grenade spam and throw some pikmin at us at the same time.

ViperGold42 · Jun 1, 2012

lusiris said:
The main reason I feel like it's +1 olimar is that Snake has to work a little harder to win this match up. Olimar outcamps us and we have work around the pikmin. We can both kill each other pretty fast but when it comes down to it we have to deal with the pikmin and work around them. It's not the other way around. Olimar can effectively cancel out most of our grenade spam and throw some pikmin at us at the same time.

ditto, Olimar is too small for Snake to really get the jab cancels and Side tilts to really get the combos working. them Pikmin are a *****.

~ Gheb ~ · Jun 1, 2012

If you mention 'grenade spam' in your posts it's clear that you don't do it right.

lusiris · Jun 1, 2012

Gheb_01 said:
If you mention 'grenade spam' in your posts it's clear that you don't do it right.

Is that how you constructively add to this match up? You just insult and demean people adding there two cents to the discussion.
Here let me rewrite what you would say if you didn't want to sound like a ****:
I understand what you're trying to say but I disagree with your viewpoint on the basis of grenades. If you position and place the grenades right then you can effectively work around the pikmin.

~ Gheb ~ · Jun 1, 2012

There was no insult in that, my friend. And really? - have you not seen my previous posts? I've already made plenty of contructive input on this match-up compared to all the people that claim Olimar to win on really lacking reasons.

lusiris · Jun 1, 2012

Gheb_01 said:
There was no insult in that, my friend. And really? - have you not seen my previous posts? I've already made plenty of contructive input on this match-up compared to all the people that claim Olimar to win on really lacking reasons.

That sounded pretty insulting to me. You just said that I was wrong by using the word spam to describe how I use my grenades. Just because you have a -1 match up doesn't mean it's a win for either character. It just details a very small advantage to one character. How is my reasoning lacking? I detailed how olimar can effectively use his pikmin to counter our grenades and make it so we have come to him.

~ Gheb ~ · Jun 1, 2012

lusiris said:
That sounded pretty insulting to me. You just said that I was wrong by using the word spam to describe how I use my grenades.

Right, and that's exactly what it's like. You use the word 'spam' to describe the way you use grenades and I tell you that this is not how you should play against Olimar. If you take offense in that then it's your problem, not mine. I did *not* insult or offend you even if you took it that way.

How is my reasoning lacking? I detailed how olimar can effectively use his pikmin to counter our grenades and make it so we have come to him.

You don't explain how him 'beating our grenade spam' and us having to 'come to him' makes the match-up suddenly disadvantaged for Snake. The only thing you did was explaining that the strategy you use against Olimar doesn't work as successfully as you wish it would.

ViperGold42 · Jun 1, 2012

Gheb_01 said:
Right, and that's exactly what it's like. You use the word 'spam' to describe the way you use grenades and I tell you that this is not how you should play against Olimar. If you take offense in that then it's your problem, not mine. I did *not* insult or offend you even if you took it that way.

You don't explain how him 'beating our grenade spam' and us having to 'come to him' makes the match-up suddenly disadvantaged for Snake. The only thing you did was explaining that the strategy you use against Olimar doesn't work as successfully as you wish it would.

I think the term is "gernade cooking"

lusiris · Jun 1, 2012

Gheb_01 said:
Right, and that's exactly what it's like. You use the word 'spam' to describe the way you use grenades and I tell you that this is not how you should play against Olimar. If you take offense in that then it's your problem, not mine. I did *not* insult or offend you even if you took it that way.

You don't explain how him 'beating our grenade spam' and us having to 'come to him' makes the match-up suddenly disadvantaged for Snake. The only thing you did was explaining that the strategy you use against Olimar doesn't work as successfully as you wish it would.

I must have misinterpreted what you said. I thought you were insulting me.

Looking at every single video you yourself posted you can count how many grenades were actually effective against olimar and hit him and usually it was around 5 grenades. Most of the time Snake had to get in close and use C4 to mix things up. If a character limits the diversity of a certain aspect of another character that grants a slight advantage to that character. In all the other aspects of the match up between these two characters I believe it's even except for the aspect of projectiles mainly grenades versus pikmin.

~ Gheb ~ · Jun 1, 2012

If you realize that doesn't that also mean that you simply aknowledge to have used the wrong strategy in this match-up? It's not like you *have* to use a lot of grenades if you see that they don't really help you XD

Attila_ · Jun 1, 2012

Realistically, nades rarely hit a lot of characters. And in that sense, they are not effective.

But in all matchups, grenades pressure opponents into making mistakes, and force them into spaces they don't want to be in.

And in that sense, nades are amazing.

Olimar is effected no differently.

lusiris · Jun 1, 2012

shmot said:
Realistically, nades rarely hit a lot of characters. And in that sense, they are not effective.

But in all matchups, grenades pressure opponents into making mistakes, and force them into spaces they don't want to be in.

And in that sense, nades are amazing.

Olimar is effected no differently.

It's the same with him throwing Pikmin at us. He is pressuring us into approaching or mistakes . All I am saying is in the values of projectiles Pikmin affect Snake and pressure him more than Nades pressure Olimar.

lusiris · Jun 1, 2012

Gheb_01 said:
If you realize that doesn't that also mean that you simply aknowledge to have used the wrong strategy in this match-up? It's not like you *have* to use a lot of grenades if you see that they don't really help you XD

I understand I have to change my strategies to verse Olimar. When comparing a Match up between two characters I analyze it this way.
Small Example:
Killing Power between Both characters: Both characters can kill each other fairly easily and it's pretty even in that aspect. Our U-tilt kills Olimar at 94% but a purple U- smash kills snake at 92%.
Recovery: A good olimar can safely recover with the use of appropriate air dodges and the whistle. It's fairly hard for a good olimar to be gimped by snake. A snake should be able to get back on stage fairly easily versus a olimar with a appropriate cypher and other moves if need be. So this is pretty even as well.
Projectiles: I already stated why I think this is a little bit in Olimar's favor. So it would be a small advantage to Olimar in this issue.

I think the main difference between our viewpoints Gheb is that I am looking at it as a analysis between the two characters strengths and weakness.

Attila_ · Jun 1, 2012

Unfortunately theory craft rarely predicts a direct outcome of a match.

If smash was as simple as that, the most knowledgable player would always win.

Mike2 · Jun 3, 2012

From one of Kuroobi's vids: you can jab or crouch right after dthrow and sometimes Olimar will stay in front of you even if he back rolls. This will probably work on other characters with bad back rolls.

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