The *NEW* Snake Matchup Discussion: #1 - Wario

[ZTD | TECHnology]

CHARACTER DISCUSSION #1: WARIO


BBR MU Chart says: Even (0)
Snake Boards say: Even (0)

Snake! Our first area of focus is Wario. He's known for his impressive aerial game and mobility, endurance that rivals yours and his game changing Waft. Discuss with your fellow Snakes how you can get around these tools.

Information we need:


-Both Characters Ground/Air Game Against Each Other-
-Moves To Avoid And How To Avoid Them-
-Snake's Moves To Utilize In The Matchup-
-Personal Strategies To Help With The Matchup-
-Stage Discussion For Starters, Counterpicks, And Bans-Before we begin though, there are some ground rules that need to be covered, and these will apply to all MU rediscussion threads.

GROUND RULES (Credit to Aerodrome)

1) Avoid large amounts of bias please. For example, you might consistently destroy Meta Knight, but that does NOT mean the matchup is +4 in Snake's favour. Do NOT let a single victory over somebody be a basis for your contribution.

2) Keep the scaling for matchups consistant. We will be using the -4 to +4 scale to summarize the matchup. Here is a rundown of the scale:

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Keep in mind, the first number in the ratio will always refer to Snake. Please do your best to pick one number, rather than something in between two integers. There are NO other possible matchup ratios besides -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, and +4.

Finally, it is a difficult task, but please try to contribute as much as possible!

 

[Wilmenz]

Alright so finally the match up thread came back to life, thanks Technical_Chase :3.

So for Wario you basically need to be aware of something, His approaches are really good against us (Im talking mainly about his Dair and fair pokes). You shouldn't be relying on your shield much in this match up because he will be pressuring you a hell lot with his pokes and amazing air mobility AND THE BITE, you shouldn't be letting Wario get in otherwise he will start wrecking. If you do not have enough time to react to his approach try to usually shield while looking at the opposite side because Warios love to crossover you while Dairing and stuff, sometimes FH Bair Oos works lmao.
Pivot grab will help you lots to stop his approaches and pokes cause it can beat everything he has, you will mainly be tacking on damage with Dthrow tech chasing to anything.

Your grenade camping game won't be as useful as it can be in other match ups, in this one they will merely be a distraction, don't get too busy with your grenades or you will be limiting yourself.

Wario will be mainly killing with Waft,Uairs and the Fsmash, his fsmash has SA(Super Armor) frames starting 1 frame before the hitbox comes out, so watch out while ftilting him when you are at high %s.

We will be killing with Utilt(Great for stoping aerial approaches), Bair(You can use this out of grab release one of these will kill him at 110% or something FRESH) and Uair(if your Bair is staled) which can also be used out of grab release.

You can also sticky him out of grab release but that would only work for pressuring him further when he is not in kill %.


While recovering against Wario you will need to be extra careful while being near him, cause he can get a free waft if you don't recover properly or bite your Cypher and you will fall to your doom. Outside of that he will just wait for you to recover high if he is not able to do that and try to harm you as you descend, from here you may do what you want by mixing your landings and trying to take as little damage as possible. Sorry if i missed anything its really late here and im falling asleep.




Random Bairs are a godsend in this match up.

 

[False]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGiabvoox2c

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This match-up is simple. Not easy, but simple.

- Grenade + Nair covers a lot of Wario's approach options if not all of them. The only way Wario can beat it is with something from below [typically uair] which is covered by the grenade. He can get in a juggle here at time but only if you overuse this tactic and get hit by uair in a bad spot.

- You're free to use utilt as anti-aerial to your hearts content. Since you have a massive pivot grab and grab release kills you don't have to worry about utilt becoming stale at kill %. Use it to trade with or beat dair and other aerials or as a follow-up to auto canceled nair.

- Wario can bait and punish your pivot grab but not if you overspace it, which I think is the ideal way to use that move. It beats Wario's *everything* as long as he isn't close enough to hit you from above and even if you mistimed it somewhat, you still have up tilt to cover stuff that comes from above. Short hop and grounded approaches lose to pivot grab.

- In addition, crouch allows you to dodge high aerials that outmaneuver your pivot grab. Dair and rising nair can be dodged that way with minimal commitment as you can mortar slide away as soon as you feel like Wario will go for a cross up, in which case you're resetting the positioning game to neutral and can fall back into nair, utilt and pivot grab walls.

- Grenades I find useless for anything other than covering nair. Frankly, I wouldn't use them for anything else as they're not only risky but add hardly anything that Snake can't do somehow else. Wario gets around them, hardly detonates them and they leave you open more than necessary. Likewise, there's almost never a reason to shield or spotdodge if you don't use grenades and just focus on walling him.

 

[Attila_]

I had written a rather massive summary, but then it disappeared, and I'm not motivated to spend 25-30 minutes writing another one right now. although quickly:

- probably 60:40 wario
- wario should approach from above, using retreating aerials
- grenades are almost worthless in this mu
- retreating pivot grab is your best friend
- fart is stupid, and he may combo you into it
- snake has a very hard time catching up when behind
- recovering is actually pretty easy
- cover the stage with c4s/mines to limit movement

this video is my most recent set against wario. as you can see, once i fell behind (because fair caused me to trip into a fart), the lead was completely out of reach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGq86vXx0Ts#t=48m20

also gheb, what are you basing that off? i disagree with almost all of it.

 

[False]

Wario has no tools to get in on Snake without baiting something. Reading his jumps and punishing accordingly with your own aerials is key in this MU. It's risky, but tons of damage can be dealt here. Watch the the crucial 2nd stock in game 2 against my set with Malcolm.

Ie. If there's a grenade right in front of you, keep in mind that that it inevitably results in the Wario waiting or approaching from above or at an angle. It's more about reading the approach rather than camping. Grenades shouldn't be hitting him a lot in the textbook camp snake game. His mobility is far too good for that. You use them to trap where he's going.

Warios like to sh fair poke. Snakes don't expect this so they eat damage but you can just **** this with ftilt or utilt. Also, when he is in the air weaving, don't let him pressure you to the edge. Get underneath him, cross him up, pick up a made pick it up and sh air dodge to get your central positioning back. You can't stay in one spot for too long because Warios will eventually begin to download you.

Also at high percents, Warios will auto cancel dair on your shield with fsmash or uair. Be aware of these greedy attempts and hold out on your shield then punish their follow up laggy move. However, shield isn't completely reliable because of bite mix ups. But when you see the dair coming heed my warning!

 

[Attila_]

remembering that wario is the best at the bait-and-punish game, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

the fact remains though, that you can't react to everything he does, so if you flinch, you get punished. and he can punish so much harder than you can.

reading his jumps only works if the wario is aggressive. if he airdodges the whole time, it doesnt accomplish much. i dare say malcolm is overly aggressive...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

-dead- @ this being in Wario's favor.

False, I think you used too many grenades and a couple of advancing nairs too much but other than that I really like what I'm seeing. Don't see what kind of risk you see involved though. You did most and received the least amount of damage when you were safely going for retreating nair, picot grab and utilt. It were the random bairs when he was on the ledge or on the ground that hurt you the most.

I feel like DIO is playing it pretty well here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d457qlBhUc

Imo, the ideal way to approach the match-up would be somewhere between False's and Dio's. They both control the ground well in their own ways and don't do dumb stuff when they're about to get juggled.

 

[Attila_]

neither of those warios camped at all. even when they're down percent, camping still earns them a waft.

if wario is approaching, especially from the front, he deserves to be *****.

i like dio's use of crouch. that is something that i hadn't thought of.

other than that... it's still wario's favour.

 

[False]

I personally believe the MU to be in slight Snake's favor. My final verdict is +1 Snake.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I love how you claim that those Warios - both better than Tedeth's - are "doing it wrong" when you fail to show us a Snake doing it right yourself. Out of the players in the videos presented so far Tedeth is porbably the least accomplished Wario and you are the least accomplished Snake. So why should your personal experience count more? Not to say you're bad but you're clearly less adaptive than the other players considering you've never stopped overusing grenades when you got grabbed / bitten for it just to name an example.

Edit: And I doubt you even watched the whole set yet. It's almost 20 minutes long and you've responded 10 minutes after I posted the video.

I'm OK with it being +1 for Snake although I personally think 0 would be more accurate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

............

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Has this been posted on the Wario boards yet? I'd like to see what they think about this mu. =D

 

[etecoon]

50:50ish on neutrals, big advantage wario on certain stages IMO

I haven't played brawl in like 9 months though so don't listen to me

and I refuse to use this stupid +/- system that they made a big deal about replacing ratios with when you're expressing the EXACT SAME THING(especially if you're going as high as 4 numbers now when the whole thing was that ratios were too nuanced, as if being specific is a bad thing)[/nerdrage]

 

[Attila_]

whenever i say something that goes against the norm, someone always plays the australia card.

hell, at least i main this character.

watch all the videos that have been posted. why was malcolm approaching with the lead? i say you dont have to, and no one seems to grasp this concept. when malcolm avoided false, he could still go in when he thought it was safe, sometimes being baited into something. when ted avoided me, he would airdodge away, without attempting a punish. the lead has already been established, and increasing it will only bring risk. i understand that playstyle is incredibly influential when playing a match, but if a wario isnt going to camp, then he's shooting himself in the foot.

also, if you think i adapt poorly, watch the mess of the winners final. or compare the two matches we played on halberd. i know i dont play the matchup perfectly (i only play ted a few times a year), but at that tournament, i adapted plenty.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I don't play this MU a great deal in tournament because I have Dedede. But I still do play it from both sides.

I think the main thing under debate is how well Snake can actually camp and wall out Wario. I don't believe Snake's grenades are as effective here but are still somewhat useful for influencing Wario's movements. Frankly, Snake still does do a good job stuffing Wario's aerial approachings with conservative safe Nairs, Up Tilt and Pivot Grab. And tech chasing Wario is relatively easy and his get up options can be reacted to. And frankly..Wario puts himself at risk everytime he approaches Snake. This much I KNOW from playing my Snake main friend in this MU regularly.

However, when Wario does get a sizable lead he puts himself in a great position. Snake can't chase Wario and has to rely on some strong reads and trapping to get Wario where he wants. Of course if he makes a mistake in the process the results can vary in extreme degrees of punishment. Wario can safely harass Snake in the air as long as he keeps in mind Snakes options and he takes command when he has the momentum.

I feel like this MU is pretty even overall. Snake still walls out Wario fairly well, profits VERY well off a grab, and has an easier time killing. Wario can control the speed of the battle a little better, racks up damage a bit faster and still has good killing options.

I can see it being argued slightly in favor for either side but I would need more compelling evidence.

And also I understand that Attila comes from a country with a less developed metagame than say...America's. But he's still a knowledgeable player that has relevant information about the matchup. I do believe that one player should not be the entire basis of your matchup experience but don't dismiss everything he has to say simply based off his location alone.

 

[False]

That's true but the question of why he is gaining the lead in the first place can be posed. I still refuse to believe its in Warios favor. :/ maybe I should play Reflex sometime lol.

I also disagree about punishing. Warios dair/bite/uair strings tack on 20-30. Snakes tech chasing and ftilt should add AT least 30-40 each time. His poopie though makes up for it. I don't think Warios punishes are far better.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Well I think a half,almost fully, or fully charged Waft is a great form of punishment. That's 25% - 41% off a single move and its fast etc etc. You already know the details. Lol

The way I look at it is this: Snake outright punishes better than Wario. But Wario's punishes him Snake in a worse position and allow him the opportunity to take on more damage by reads and reaction. Its kind of similar to Snake's tech chase just more options and damaging punishes. I don't think that Wario's punishes are just so much better than Snake's. I just think they set him up better. A Wario with a truckload of momentum when Snake is in the air is very scary.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have NOT played the "australia card" and I don't dismiss it because he's from australia, man. I don't care for nationalities unless I want to troll somebody. If attila were my best friend I'd still point out that I feel Dio's and false's Snakes are better [which isn't even discrediting to him, really]. My estimation was 100% independent from any kind of regional background and I don't entertain regional bias anyway.

I don't disagreed with how hard it is once you lose the lead. In fact, it's why I think this match-up is even in the first place.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Oh I didn't say outright you did. That statement wasn't meant for just you actually. Just wanted it out there because I have seen it used in the past.

Anyway, I also do not believe its impossible to get the lead back from Wario even from a large deficit. Its definitely difficult but not impossible. I would agree that this aspect is one of the reasons it makes the MU relatively even. I just want to see more evidence from Attila that supports his statement. I'm legitimately curious.

 

[Lord Chair]

Wario cannot camp Snake for 5 minutes without setting himself up to be dash attacked or inevitably ending up in a very disadvantageous situation. The DIO matches are pretty meh, considering he misses a lot of followups and setups.

Random bairs don't win this MU, smart bairs do. The only thing that justifies FH bairs is Wario not airdodging at all.

Tbh you'd be hard pressed to find Warios playing this MU accordingly, Malcolm definitely took the wrong road, he seemed to want to commit at unexpected moments rather that advantegeous ones. That doesn't work.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Chair, I assume you've played Crysis, Akuma and other EU Snakes a bit. What do you call this MU?

(And yes guys I did message the Wario boards)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't play this MU a great deal in tournament because I have Dedede. But I still do play it from both sides.

I think the main thing under debate is how well Snake can actually camp and wall out Wario. I don't believe Snake's grenades are as effective here but are still somewhat useful for influencing Wario's movements. Frankly, Snake still does do a good job stuffing Wario's aerial approachings with conservative safe Nairs, Up Tilt and Pivot Grab. And tech chasing Wario is relatively easy and his get up options can be reacted to. And frankly..Wario puts himself at risk everytime he approaches Snake. This much I KNOW from playing my Snake main friend in this MU regularly.

However, when Wario does get a sizable lead he puts himself in a great position. Snake can't chase Wario and has to rely on some strong reads and trapping to get Wario where he wants. Of course if he makes a mistake in the process the results can vary in extreme degrees of punishment. Wario can safely harass Snake in the air as long as he keeps in mind Snakes options and he takes command when he has the momentum.

I feel like this MU is pretty even overall. Snake still walls out Wario fairly well, profits VERY well off a grab, and has an easier time killing. Wario can control the speed of the battle a little better, racks up damage a bit faster and still has good killing options.

I can see it being argued slightly in favor for either side but I would need more compelling evidence.

And also I understand that Attila comes from a country with a less developed metagame than say...America's. But he's still a knowledgeable player that has relevant information about the matchup. I do believe that one player should not be the entire basis of your matchup experience but don't dismiss everything he has to say simply based off his location alone.

I was gonna post about it, but, you pretty much hit it right on the head, so I don't feel like I need to add anything to that. If there are any specific questions, I would be happy to answer them, though.

Both characters have useful counterpick stages, and it ends up being a relatively even matchup overall.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

What stages are both characters looking for? I'm fairly certain we are looking for FD. o-o

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I would ban Halberd, as the platform limits our approaches, your recovery options increase, and our weight isn't as helpful here, but, Final Destination is also a good level for you, as we have no platforms to work with, it's difficult for us to stay away from you, and you have plenty of space to move backward before you're forced to make a real decision.

I would just go to Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise. Snake doesn't mind Rainbow that much, but, we love it. We can camp the balls off of Snake on Brinstar.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Snake should always go for Final Destination or Halberd if its available. I think which stage gets banned is player dependent though.

I do know that both characters are strong on Batttlefield but I feel like it aids Snake's ability to wall much more. Its actually difficult for Wario to extricate a Snake who setup base around a platform.

Lylat is also a solid stage for Snake in my opinion. You basically just want to go for any stage that's going to aid you in FD just does a great job of limiting Wario's options with its polariing nature. Halberd is somewhat similar but both characters can take advantage of the low ceiling.

Wario is obviously going to want to go for dynamic stages. When Rainbow and Cruise are not legal (becoming more popular in the US.) I think Delfino is a good option and makes it difficult for Snake to maintain a stage presence through his projectiles.

I think PS1 is an option worth considering for Wario as well.

 

[Sub]

If you are having trouble with warios ariel attacks then spam the smash up attack. I find snakes basic A attacks really usefull two of the side A attacks do about 30 damage already.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Snake's Up Smash has significant cooldown and can be easily beaten with an aerial.

And if you manage to jab a Wario its always a better option to grab him from it instead of just do a full jab attack which is SDIable/punishable.

 

[Gifts]

In my opinion this mu is either 0 or +1 in snakes favor (honestly I am more leaning towards 0.)

As it has already been pointed out snake should use his grenades to cut off a lot of Wario's options. Stages like PS1, Lylatt, and Halberd are ideal for snake because he can utilize camping under platforms better than wario can use these platforms for extra maneuverability. FD is also a solid counter pick I guess but I hate using snake on FD. BF can be frustrating to play wario on and honestly we either ban brinstar or RC (whichever you feel less comfortable playing on I guess.)

If you can catch wario in a grab he obviously dies around 120-130 with bair or uair, mix these two options up to screw up their di. (False pointed this out in the other thread.) You can react by shielding to his get up attack. You can read his rolls pretty easily in my opinion and is easy to re grab. One thing that gets me however is get up f smash since i mis time the regrab a lot but that is just me i guess. :s

Honestly I think this entire matchup is who can be more patient/safe. However the seldom amount of Wario's I have played can go from camping for 4-5 mins to playing super aggressive and me not having an answer to that. Just be weary of this I guess and watch out for when he tries to cross you up.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

So for the record:

False believes its in Snake's favor.

Attila believes its in Wario's favor.

The majority believes its even.

Still waiting to hear more from Attila on his view.

 

[Lord Chair]

I've played every relevant Snake in Europe (Crysis, Akuma, Mr. R and Calzorz), plus Razer, Ally and Squall. I don't really think there's any reason to assume this MU is heavily in either character's favor, the current ratio system doesn't differentiate between 0, +1 and -1 too much so I'd just go with 'even', Wario's advantage with stupid stagelists the States still tend to come up with so every now and then.

There's not too much to say about the MU. Both characters have clear counterplay options against everything the other character has, it takes a bit of time for either player to be forced to commit to anything but those moments are inevitable. I won't be telling anything new if I say that both characters can exploit each other's commitments really well, but I'm pretty sure most non-top level Snakes gravely fail to understand how Wario's **** really works. Juggles are overestimated, edgeguarding and ledgeguarding are underrated.

Wario's grab isn't what will end up starting a **** train most of the time, it'll be an aerial. Especially fair is a really overlooked tool, Snake doesn't really have a solid answer to it aside of walking away and utilting or ftilting, the latter two being quite a commitment that would otherwise be punished fairly heavily. Snake cannot afford to allow himself to be zoned away, Wario cannot allow Snake to camp without being pressured. Pressure, in this matchup, means having to react, to anything.

Snake's pivot grab is good, but people stress it too much as a means of being an approach counter. It lasts rather long and pretty much means you instantly lose a lot of stage control because you're not spending time setting up explosives. It does beat or go even with nigh every approach, but that isn't always what is to be expected. Overcommitting to pivot grabs will make sure you will also have to commit to disadvantageous situations, like being cornered to the ledge or in your shield without nade covering.

 

[Wilmenz]

Nades aren't that relevant to this match up, and much less if they are on the ground, they are just limiting Snake's movement and options. They do serve their purpose as a distraction and kind of a pressuring tool but that's just it. I mean Wario wants Snake to shield amirite?

I feel i agree with False's ratio though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Chair, you can't expect us to accept you saying "XY is doing it wrong" when you fail to show somebody doing it right. If Malcolm is doing it wrong and Dio is "meh", then who is doing it right?

 

[Gifts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giIAMs_OZ8o

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I'll accept it. BD

 

[Attila_]

Different timezones, i was asleep lol.

I'll break down a match from someone other than me, and try to get my point across when I get a break from class.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

While your commitment is admirable you have to realize that your logic is kind of backwards. Out of the 4 recent sets posted in this thread Snake wins 3 of them ... are you assuming that they all did it wrong and that Tedeth of all Warios in the world is the only one who does it right because he beats you? How much more do you need to see until you're able to accept that you might just be wrong here?

 

[Lord Chair]

I am in no way obligated to give examples of who actually does it right. There are no videos online of this MU being played properly at a high level, you can't expect me to give you something that is not there.

There are only so few good Wario players, I suspect Reflex plays the MU decently. For the rest? Nope, just nope.

edit: does it even matter? this discussion is not about who does what wrong, its about the wario-snake MU

 

[Attila_]

Can't say I've ever seen you admit defeat either, gheb.

Even when you say that snake beats Oli and d3, and no one agrees with you.

Slow down and let discussion take its place.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not here to "defeat" anybody - I'm here to look at the facts and the empricial evidence and draw the most logical conclusion from it. I don't feel like you're doing that. The fact that you even use words such as "admit defeat" tells me that you're not looking at the match-up without a massive dose of bias. It looks more like you're trying to prove that your point of view must be right, no matter what - even though you are the one that nobody agrees with in this case [and this just in: there are a bunch of prominent Snake players that will back me up on Oli / DDD both being even match-ups] and you are the one who can't admit that everything pointed out so far does not lead to the conclusion that Wario wins this match-up at all. So why do you criticize me when you got your own homework to do?

Chair, it matters to me. If you can back up that all the videos posted in this thread so far include players "doing it wrong" then I will look at these videos differently than when you fail to back it up.