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The new Roy Strategem discussion

exarch

doot doot doot
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Right on with Marth hindering Roy's everything. Every other "clone" in this game has enough significant differences to change the way they play (strategies, playstyles, etc.) Except for the dtilt knockback, Marth is literally a better Roy. I cite Marth's unsweetspotted middle-blade fair doing more damage than Roy's sweetspotted middle-blade fair. Well I guess Pichu is in the same boat. YLink/Link, Ganon/CF, Fox/Falco, Mario/Doc, all are different enough to matter.

I would think Ganon wails on Ylink. CG, covers the stage fast with wavelands, eats platforms with aerials, and hits so hard ylink won't ever get to the temple of time.

Marth vs Roy is stupid, just play for stage positioning and GG. Against fsmash though you can CC, counter, triangle jump, roll through, shield grab, DD and bait, DED if you get inside enough, and probably a good number of others (jumping over it might work too.) Honestly a Marth that just dtilts and fsmashes would be hell for Roy; it's when he starts jumping and trying to grab you that you can get inside. But yea throw him toward the edge and zone him there. Whoever's closer to the edge gets edgeguarded first, and loses that stock first.
 

odinNJ

Smash Lord
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I don't know,

Mario is just a work doc to be honest, despite his better mobility.

Anyways, roy stuff. To be honest, marth stomps roy in every sense of the word. The only benefit to the roy marth matchup is roy's faster up down movement. I like to take marths to dreamland, I know, I know he doesn't die off the top and has a great horizontal recovery but his tipper no longer eats up the whole stage and roy has plenty of room to use his powerful movement. It brings it down to what this matchup is supposed to be, a raw spacing battle.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Roy vs Marth is Roy's tech chase off DD grab and meager combos off d-tilt vs a better DD grab that may very well death-touch him if the Marth has a decent level of general competence with their combos vs semi-FFers.

If they jump a lot then the match isn't too bad because grabbing Marth's landing with that enormous DD grab or absorbing his aerials with crouch d-tilt can give you good returns and an edge in combat exchanges. However, if he is strong with his ground game and understands that your DED has no business working if he crouch-shields (into an appropriate grab) and doesn't jump often then your options in the match dry up fast and you may find yourself hitting him about as much but being terribly overwhelmed in the damage output per hit.

I hope you know how to throw their DI off during your throw mixups so you can reap the wonders of Roy's DI-dependent combo extenders like b-throw > side-B or f-throw > SHFFL fair > more stuff. It's a tad flimsy but I'm not sure you can keep pace otherwise.
 

darkoblivion12

Smash Lord
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I don't know if this is at all useful, but Roy has 1 frame to DED from the edge and regrab. The move will be invincible up to frame 14, which means DED will be invincible when it hits. It won't be invincible frame 15-29, but that shouldn't matter. Anyways, I'm not sure how useful this is but I'm just going to throw it out there.
 
Joined
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I don't know if this is at all useful, but Roy has 1 frame to DED from the edge and regrab. The move will be invincible up to frame 14, which means DED will be invincible when it hits. It won't be invincible frame 15-29, but that shouldn't matter. Anyways, I'm not sure how useful this is but I'm just going to throw it out there.
Huh? What are you talking about? Go into debug mode an you'll see its only on the very last frame (29) of SideB that he'll become vulnerable, but the very next frame he grabs the ledge. Well, only useful once since you can only get the little height gain and acceleration restart once while grabbing the ledge (forget what refreshes it, something about being on the ground or jumping and landing on the ground).
 

darkoblivion12

Smash Lord
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Better than I thought. Just asked a friend about the frames for edge stuff and did the math, that's why it was wrong. Anyways, good to know.
 

odinNJ

Smash Lord
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Its a cool concept, pretty useful if fox runs at you to yolo shine and gets clipped. But i dont see people going near the edge when Roy is there, afraid of getting thrown to killed
 

darkoblivion12

Smash Lord
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Frame math.
Fox's illusion starts moving on frame 21 and hits 22-24. Our fsmash hits on frames 12-14. My reaction time is .21 seconds, slightly faster than the average .22. That's 12 frames or 13 frames depending if it's me or someone else. If you try to edge guard illusion on reaction with fsmash, 12 frames of reaction plus 12 frames of fsmash means they're already on the other side or will have hit you by the time fsmash is out. This doesn't apply if you have Hax-like reaction time (9 frames) or if you're Marth (frames 10-13 fsmash).

So what can we do that best edge guards fox/falco illusion?
 

Heero Yuy

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I'm pretty knowledgable with Marth, but I was recently considering Roy to deal with my Jigglypuff problem as a Peach main. Considering Roy has disjointed hotboxes that could hit Puff from afar is a good idea (Roy's spacing games doesn't seem as important but I feel like he has advantages over Puff with his sweetspots). I felt it's easier for Roy to KO her over Marth because Puff's try to go in a lot, and the closer she is to Roy, he can kill her more easily. Plus, Roy's UpB beats Puff at low %'s.

Good or bad choice for counter pick against Puff? I have extremely limited knowledge of Roy since I've always played Marth.
 

exarch

doot doot doot
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In theory I like what Roy has going for him vs Jiggs. He also has many things going against him as well, but that's how it always is. He's mobile enough to get around her and has the ability to kill her low without being forced to space something hard. And actually punishes her considerably hard (for like 20% like everyone else, but when she dies at 70%...)

In practice I've had good success against puffs I normally beat with other characters, but the last time I played Hungrybox, well it didn't go great. But then he plays much more than I do, and he's obviously a better player, and at this point it was probably years ago that this happened. I'd love to get to sit down with him and play a good number of those games. (I think I'd be satisfied with 7 or more, maybe by then I'll have seen most of his rest and gimpy stuff and can adjust moderately.) I won't be convinced for or against Roy's potential in this match until that happens.
 

darkoblivion12

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I'm not actually saying it's all that bad of a MU. I rather like playing it. I just think you're going to be in a much worse spot if you think you can beat out a jiggs main by pulling out your secondary Roy. Exarch is pretty spot on with his analysis. Although realistically, killing jiggs is pretty hard in the matchup and you can take a lot of percent trying to force kills n stuff.
 

.K1

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Hey everyone. Im just now getting back to playing Melee competitively. I played 03-07, then stopped. Is Roy still considered low tier? If so, why exactly is he still considered low? NEO used to do relatively well with him......I dont know if its just me being stubborn, but I really feel like Roy COULD be an A-/B+ tier character......Could someone fill me in on exactly why hes considered to be so bad? I know that Marth kind of outclasses him in a zoning aspect, but isnt Roy supposed to be the "rushdown" iteration of Marth? Does Roy have very little knockback compared to Marth in general?

All of that being said, I have very little experience using Roy. Ive always been a marth main, with a pocket Fox. Any input could help.

Edit: All I ask is that you dont just say "fox/falco/marth/shiek **** Roy". Thats kind of a given. Those characters have good matchups against almost all of the cast. I refuse to believe this game is like Marvel 2 where only 5 or 6 characters are truly viable.
 

A Revelation

Smash Cadet
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:roymelee:
Hey everyone. Im just now getting back to playing Melee competitively. I played 03-07, then stopped. Is Roy still considered low tier? If so, why exactly is he still considered low? NEO used to do relatively well with him......I dont know if its just me being stubborn, but I really feel like Roy COULD be an A-/B+ tier character......Could someone fill me in on exactly why hes considered to be so bad? I know that Marth kind of outclasses him in a zoning aspect, but isnt Roy supposed to be the "rushdown" iteration of Marth? Does Roy have very little knockback compared to Marth in general?

All of that being said, I have very little experience using Roy. Ive always been a marth main, with a pocket Fox. Any input could help.

Edit: All I ask is that you dont just say "fox/falco/marth/shiek **** Roy". Thats kind of a given. Those characters have good matchups against almost all of the cast. I refuse to believe this game is like Marvel 2 where only 5 or 6 characters are truly viable.
Low is still low tier and it'll A LOT to bring him to A or B tier.

Roy's weakness in my opinion is the lack of kill setups. He doesn't have a moveset to setup easy kills like the better characters do, how many times will a Roy have to pepper at someone to get them to 150+ before the die to a FTILT poke? Throwing out Fsmashes and Dsmashes doesn't work anymore what makes these moves worse is the lag behind them. If blocked they are ALWAYS punishable. D-tilt setups stop working at higher percents and won't work at all if your opponent realizes your d-tilt usage and just jumps over your poke (I'm looking at you Cap. Falcon) To make it worse his defense is very movement centric (whoever masters this would be among the best Roy's period.) meaning he has very little OOS options to switch from defense to offense.

His offense is limited in that he has no real 'pressure' he can space characters out and keep safe but the issue is that he poses no real danger to anyone UNLESS you're smart. Now I know that sounds crazy right? Sometimes characters need something you can 'just do' something you can safely fall back on if you brain fart or haven't figured out exactly what you want to do. Fox/Falco have their crazy pressure strings which they can 'just do' without spending brainpower. Which is good cause if they don't haveto think about their pressure strings then they can spend their brain power on thinking of counter hit setups and counter strategies.

These are attributes of higher level spacies though, the bad ones are the ones where pressure isn't second nature. Roy has this in the Grab/Chase mixup. So if you somehow get someone to block then their in the grab/chase scenario. Either you grab their block or chase their option. However it's hard to maximize damage from any of these encounters.


TL;DR

1) No reliable kill setups and hard to maximize damage output from a very difficult to use offense. (remember also spacing is everything!)
2) Defense is movement, if you block you're in a really bad place. WD OOS can get you out of pressure but it wont give you an advantage.


A positive though is that he still has a sword and if you master his ground game you can become very hard to hit, so you might have a chance just by following the mantra of the once popular Isai.

"Don't get hit"

Attrition is the name of Roy's game because you wont be killing anyone good below 150% unless you've perfected his gimp game on fast fallers, get a psychic read or hit one of his kill setups at lowish percents.

:roymelee:

Roy has great tools (D-tilt) but almost no one knows how to use it properly.
 

.K1

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:roymelee:

Low is still low tier and it'll A LOT to bring him to A or B tier.

Roy's weakness in my opinion is the lack of kill setups. He doesn't have a moveset to setup easy kills like the better characters do, how many times will a Roy have to pepper at someone to get them to 150+ before the die to a FTILT poke? Throwing out Fsmashes and Dsmashes doesn't work anymore what makes these moves worse is the lag behind them. If blocked they are ALWAYS punishable. D-tilt setups stop working at higher percents and won't work at all if your opponent realizes your d-tilt usage and just jumps over your poke (I'm looking at you Cap. Falcon) To make it worse his defense is very movement centric (whoever masters this would be among the best Roy's period.) meaning he has very little OOS options to switch from defense to offense.

His offense is limited in that he has no real 'pressure' he can space characters out and keep safe but the issue is that he poses no real danger to anyone UNLESS you're smart. Now I know that sounds crazy right? Sometimes characters need something you can 'just do' something you can safely fall back on if you brain fart or haven't figured out exactly what you want to do. Fox/Falco have their crazy pressure strings which they can 'just do' without spending brainpower. Which is good cause if they don't haveto think about their pressure strings then they can spend their brain power on thinking of counter hit setups and counter strategies.

These are attributes of higher level spacies though, the bad ones are the ones where pressure isn't second nature. Roy has this in the Grab/Chase mixup. So if you somehow get someone to block then their in the grab/chase scenario. Either you grab their block or chase their option. However it's hard to maximize damage from any of these encounters.


TL;DR

1) No reliable kill setups and hard to maximize damage output from a very difficult to use offense. (remember also spacing is everything!)
2) Defense is movement, if you block you're in a really bad place. WD OOS can get you out of pressure but it wont give you an advantage.


A positive though is that he still has a sword and if you master his ground game you can become very hard to hit, so you might have a chance just by following the mantra of the once popular Isai.

"Don't get hit"

Attrition is the name of Roy's game because you wont be killing anyone good below 150% unless you've perfected his gimp game on fast fallers, get a psychic read or hit one of his kill setups at lowish percents.

:roymelee:

Roy has great tools (D-tilt) but almost no one knows how to use it properly.

Fair enough, thanks for the detailed post. Ill definitely keep all of those things in mind
 

.K1

Smash Apprentice
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Roy's utilt and uair feel so worthless =( Someone please enlighten me D=

Edit: To a little bit of a lesser extent, his fair feels like garbage too =/
 

A Revelation

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
46
Roy's utilt and uair feel so worthless =( Someone please enlighten me D=

Edit: To a little bit of a lesser extent, his fair feels like garbage too =/
They kind of are.​
U-tilt​
To my knowledge these moves have very limited uses. Utilt can work as an antiair but ONLY when you're 100% sure you'll hit. It's easily​
baited and has a ton of lag after it. One double jump fake will make you whiff and cause you to eat damage.​
It's best use I think is to combo in specific situations it and to poke under platforms when you don't have the time to jump and U-air.​
It also has a funky hitbox on the front that sends kind of far if sourspotted so if you have setups or spacing for that try it out.​
U-air​
It's the least laggy of all Roy's aerials and juggles well if the opponents doesn't have strong moves coming down. You can also do some grab combos on FF or floaties depending​
on percents due to its's low knockback. Being the least laggy it's his best move to use on shield. How you'll get someone to block your u-air is entirely​
up to you. I do know a close u-air on shield can avoid grabs by dashing through them.​
F-air​
Spacing tool, combo tool, air to air.​
It sends forward so characters who would normally survive an fsmash due to survivial DI you can send them out for a bad situation. Think Cap. Falcon​
FireEmblem characters are all about ground game though, so I suggest staying on the ground as much as possible and only use this when necessary.​
They are kind of bad moves in general but when used in the right places, they can be useful. Hope this helped.​
 

.K1

Smash Apprentice
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So ive decided to pick up Roy and see how it goes. Can I get some more info on these moves:

Usmash - uses? special properties? practical move to use often?

dair - does it have decent hitstun? at what percents can I combo off of a shffld dair? and is the meteor property something that I can reliably combo into somehow?

uair - i know it doesnt have good knockback, but does it have decent hitstun? is it similar to marths in the sense that I dont have to worry about getting hit after I hit the opponent with it?

fair - same deal, does this move have good knockback?

DED - Ive got no idea the properties of this compared to marths, but I do know that it seems like Roys is better than marths.....or at the very least, used more often than marths. Why? and what makes it such a good tool for roy?

utilt - ....im assuming I cant use this like marths? It seems like it has very little hitstun / knockback.....so is it only truly good for poking through plats like odin mentioned? in the situations I could use Utilt, would uair be a better choice?



Im not simply overlooking odins post.......it was informative....I would just like a little more clarity regarding Roys moveset in comparison to something im familiar with.....like marth.

lastly, are there any "staple" combos I should know? Ive seen Sethlon do a lot of stuff like dtilit > fair > dtilt > fair > fsmash. Im assuming thats DI, percent, and character dependent?


Sorry for all of the questions, I would just really like to catch up on Roy as quick as I can <3
 

A Revelation

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
46
I personally think DED is almost useless except for the first swing and the third swing down.
The first swing can poke people off their original offensive course (i.e Falcon running in to nair) but both are you are at neutral and in a very dangerous position.
The third swing down is the safest one on shield and that's pretty much it.
It's used more often because Roy mains are a little behind on the meta, they still think it's good when it's really not.

None of Roy's moves have good knockback except Fsmash, F-tilt, and Tippered Down Smash lol, think of your other aerials as jugglers, combo tools and keep away moves.

You'd have to practice your own combos on Marth. It's something you get a feel for and not really something you can explain.

Usmash is a really telegraphed anti-air I suppose. Can't really get much off of it after wards. Good luck hitting someone competent with it. I'm not trying to discourage use of this move
but there are usually better options.

I don't use Dair much so I can't talk about it.

Utilt can be used for combos but it's too slow, doesn't have much range because the sweetspot is in the sword. If you hit with the tip you'll probably get punished.
 

Zerthex

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Does anyone know the mechanics of the DED1 in the air? Knowing how to influence the lift would be crucial.
 
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Zerthex

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On some occasions Roy’s DED1 doesn’t give you a lift. Well I tested it and the reasons are easy to understand; it is all depends on what your actions were last lime in the air.


Performing an aerial, flare blade, or counter right after DED1 without jumping in between will cause your next jump state to have the fast-falling DED1. Roy’s blazer and air dodge do not trigger this result and will actually nullify the downward DED1 momentum. Therefore, if you have time to air dodge( or waveland) after a DED1>aerial while landing, it can save you the lift during your next moment airborne. Otherwise just input any jump related command after you’ve landed from your recent DED1>any aerial, flare blade, or counter.

Here is a straightforward list to remember how to avoid or activate the derpy DED.

1. In air

2. DED1 (or 2-4 if you want(but you shouldn’t though))

  • Double jumping here will make your next aerial(but not flare blade or counter) not trigger derpy D.
3. Aerial, flare blade or counter
  • Double jumping or air dodging here ensures your next jump related action wont have derpy D.
4. Land (Your next jump has DED1 sickness)

All of this works for Marth too btw.
 
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Roysourboy666

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Useful infoz :p thx
I was trying to grasp it, but it seems I'm not the only one :) As I saw it, it all depended on the height of the jump or something but It looks like u nailed it ! :)
 

darkoblivion12

Smash Lord
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On some occasions Roy’s DED1 doesn’t give you a lift. Well I tested it and the reasons are easy to understand; it is all depends on what your actions were last lime in the air.


Performing an aerial, flare blade, or counter right after DED1 without jumping in between will cause your next jump state to have the fast-falling DED1. Roy’s blazer and air dodge do not trigger this result and will actually nullify the downward DED1 momentum. Therefore, if you have time to air dodge( or waveland) after a DED1>aerial while landing, it can save you the lift during your next moment airborne. Otherwise just input any jump related command after you’ve landed from your recent DED1>any aerial, flare blade, or counter.

Here is a straightforward list to remember how to avoid or activate the derpy DED.

1. In air

2. DED1 (or 2-4 if you want(but you shouldn’t though))

  • Double jumping here will make your next aerial(but not flare blade or counter) not trigger derpy D.
3. Aerial, flare blade or counter
  • Double jumping or air dodging here ensures your next jump related action wont have derpy D.
4. Land (Your next jump has DED1 sickness)

All of this works for Marth too btw.

I made a post about this a couple of months ago. I got wrecked by exarch. In the response though.
http://smashboards.com/threads/ded-is-a-boss.314929/
 

darkoblivion12

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On mobility: learn lots of edge stuff and waveland stuff. Roy's ff and speed make his movement game amazing.

This is edge stuff:
There's a nearly invincible stall you can do on the edge where you ledgehop and ff back the the edge. It's incredibly useful.
Hax dashing is partially useful, it's not as invincible as the previous technique but it's an excellent bait.
You can do an invincible waveland dsmash from the edge if you time your edge stalling properly.
Waveland fsmash and turn around fsmash also useful stuffs.
Waveland usmash is a good mixup for people chilling on platforms.
Waveland grabs and pivot grabs are great mixups.
I've been practicing waveland turn around dtilts.

Here's something non-edge related:
You can waveland a fullhop flareblade.
Also wavelanding platforms and dtilting on them is pretty good.
Make sure you can dtilt walk forward dtilt on a platform.

Pyro out.
 
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Zerthex

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I never thought about wavelanding a full-hopped flareblade. It took a few moments to get it down but now I can see how crucial to Roy this is. Into the Roy trials it goes.
Ledgehopped wavelands are great with Roy and because of his wavedash range and disjointed hitbox.
I Hax dash with Roy and yeah, it is a good mixup. There are many movement tricksies that Im not sure how to explain that involve timing, spacing and angling. Roy's dair is fantastic.
 

net1234

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how do you deal with sopo? i feel like he just outclasses roy in the air, on the ground and has a better recovery. i honestly think the sopo matchup is like 30:70 popo
 

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
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Out space Sopo on the ground. ICs vs Roy, however, is complete 9-1 or 10-0 ass.

I've played Roy for awhile, but never felt the need to post here. However, I am curious for any help I can get. What in the flying **** is Yoshi and how do I deal with it?
 

darkoblivion12

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Does anyone know the frame(s) of UpSmash that has the spike properties?
No. It's pretty random. You just need to learn to follow a tech chase with it. People will definitely panic and use their default roll instead of a thoughtful one.

how do you deal with sopo? i feel like he just outclasses roy in the air, on the ground and has a better recovery. i honestly think the sopo matchup is like 30:70 popo
Sopo has a chain grab on Roy which makes things very difficult. I haven't dealt with a whole lot of IC's. I know you can uair chain him pretty hard and that gets set up by dtilts. I think I would recommend dash dance grab with some first hit DED->grab mixed in. If he's outclassing you in the air, you're spacing improperly.


Out space Sopo on the ground. ICs vs Roy, however, is complete 9-1 or 10-0 ***.

I've played Roy for awhile, but never felt the need to post here. However, I am curious for any help I can get. What in the flying **** is Yoshi and how do I deal with it?
Welcome to the Roy boards. We haven't talked much since I stopped posting here a whole lot.

On Yoshi: You outspace him with dtilts. You out dash dance him. You can edgeguard him with dtilts and fsmashes. DED is good while he's in the air. Don't fall for roll dsmash.
 
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