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The new Roy Strategem discussion

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
Melee is alive and kickin' which means that as Roy players we should have some kind of incentive to make stuff happen. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of things to discuss as of late, seeing as the Melee Metagame has changed once again. (At least from when I started playing in '07.)

Let's talk strategy, matchups, and use of unusual tactics to help improve Roy's personal Metagame. I'll update things as brought up in conversation, here.

Also...seeing as how everyone else is going along with the idea Shakugan and I started with Peach...why don't we make a massive Roy combo vid? I know that Sethlon isn't the only person playing Roy. I want to bring the Roy boards in a new direction. (Sethlon, care to lend a hand? Or anyone for that matter.)

So...I honestly want this to go through as a discussion, and not anything involving how great Roy is, or how much better Marth is. (Remember, SOMEONE is watching.) We know what Roy's real standing in Melee is. Let's just accept it, and move forward.

Let's start this discussion!!!
 

Dogysamich

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*starts a slow clap*

The only real suggestion I want for this is you might want to go look for GAPeach for some advice.

... that's all I really got.
 

Ripple

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I can probably start helping out again, my best main is probably Roy now, instead of DK
 

Dogysamich

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Lol, yeah, I was hoping this would draw out some of the more experienced Roy players. Hopefully he'll add his input.
I'll be surprised if he comes down here on his own accord. He's NEVER liked melee, and I dont blame him.

I tend to think the only reason he actually goes to the peach boards at any time is because he's good friends with xif and mike g irl (and cause I thumb in there from time to time, but I dont think that has any real effect to it).

He knows alot of stuff; he's made a habit of going to tourneys and drillin people with his roy. It's pretty comical at times.
 

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
I don't get it. I hear the same thing about Chu. He doesn't like the game, yet he plays it. Don't play it if you don't enjoy it? I mean, nothing against GA, mind you, much respect. Still...why play if you've NEVER liked it? O.o


Edit: Ripple, let's hear it, ^_^. We can at least start with one subject, then go into depth with it.
 

Brightside6382

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Whats there to discuss about Roy? You use a lot of D-tilts, F-airs, jabs, Forward-B's, and F-smashes. Everything from there is just MINDGAMES!
 

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
That's the same attitude people have about Peach. Just FC Nair and Dsmash until you can find an opening. It's not very appealing to just put it like that. It could be said about any character. Falco is a lot of pew pew, blink, bam, blink, bam, BOOM!!.

The point is...yes we KNOW what Roy is capable of, but I also know that with the changing metagame, our approach has to be a bit different. People have started to think outside of the box. I had MAJOR success playing a Marth at SPOC. (Then I randomly SD'ed after having the 2-stock. -_-) I also know that you can give Fox/Falco's ledge attack the prison treatment with Counter. (Another beautiful thing.) We know what his tools are...I'm talking about approaches to them. A lot of times we just here, "Use this attack and this attack".


That's all fine and dandy, but that's why some Roy players get limited. Then you have others (Sethlon/Neo/GA) who go beyond that. We need to discuss ROY and try to produce that. That's how Metagame evolves. Roy can be gimped, but I like surprising the heck out of people when I play Roy. It's much more fun that way. It also keeps people from thinking you're just like any other Roy player out there.


No, I'm not trolling or anything Brightside, I'm just saying we need to think beyond just "He's (insert moves here)" and then i t's just mindgames. That sums up any character, then.
 

Dogysamich

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I don't get it. I hear the same thing about Chu. He doesn't like the game, yet he plays it. Don't play it if you don't enjoy it? I mean, nothing against GA, mind you, much respect. Still...why play if you've NEVER liked it? O.o
The community. I mean, i completely understand when people want to quit smash for other games. There's so much wack stuff in smash that it's weird that it (both melee and brawl) are as big as they are.
 

ChivalRuse

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Roy is all about mindgames. Sandbagging does not work. You have to be thinking constantly.

If you do things like SH forward > fair, you'll just get shield grabbed. You should preemptively empty shorthop > grab them in their shield

Or SH waveland back > dtilt shield poke.

You can't let your opponent wait for you to make a mistake. In my opinion, Roy's path to victory is patience. The more patient you are with Roy, the more success you will have.

I'm not very good with Roy, but Rebel581, Aero, and Chred all have decent Roys, and I've learned a lot from playing them.
 

Ripple

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sandbagging with roy just lets the opponent see what a stereotypical roy looks like. a character who spams F smash and d tilt.

they forget we also have grabs and over b!
 

ChivalRuse

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Did I slip into a parallel universe where the definition of sandbagging changed or something? XD
Yea sandbagging wasn't the right term. What I meant to say by "sandbagging won't work" was that you can't just throw out moves and expect them to connect. You have to be proactive and do exactly the opposite of what your opponent anticipates.

For example, say your opponent is mashed between you and the ledge. Although you are a good distance away from him, it is still obviously a bad position. Considering your range and the possibility of a wavedash > fsmash from you, he shields, that being one of the safest precautions.

You know his options, and what the best response will be to what you are about to do. So, you dash towards him, jump and neutral b over his shield. He, however, unexpecting as he is, observes you dashing, and after a moment jumps out of his shield (hoping to land a dair, or whatever is typical of the character when descending upon an opponent, when you pass under him). To his dismay, your flaming blade is already sweeping across his inevitable path, and thus you land the neutral b for a damaging blow with relatively good knockback.

This is a likely scenario, because Roy is known for having less than average aerials. Consequently, the opponent expects to receive little damage while airborne, in this matchup. This fact only increases the odds that anyone facing a Roy will be prone to taking to the skies in a sticky situation.
 

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
Personally, what I mentioned before is another mindgame that will keep your opponent at bay.

With Roy's counter, you can stop Fox/Falco's ledge attack. (As in them tapping A when on the ledge) It'll spike them in the process. I did it to either Cactuar or Sneak...it was pretty darn cool. Anyway....having this under your belt will probably make them roll or just get up. Either can result in Roy's sexy Fsmash at optimal range. If they jump instead...well you should be able to handle it. I'll elaborate later.
 

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
double post:


It should be noted, and I'll probably update it in the OP...Tech skill accuracy is very important. I'll do my best to update this thread. We should probably start going into a bit more depth. Chival, I definitely appreciate the input, and would welcome more.
 

ChivalRuse

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Yea, np Rain.

I'm trying to decide something. Obviously if you can, when your opponent is GOING to tech/techroll on a platform, it's ideal to waveland > fsmash/dsmash.

I'm trying to decide what's better when you don't have time to do so:

1. Waveland > grab, hoping he shields (because he had time to).
2. Uair from beneath.
3. FJ and strike with a partially-charged, well-timed neutral-b.
4. Nair him like Marth.

1. Seems good. But it's hard to follow up a grab unless it's a FF'er (in which case uthrow should lead to something nasty). Bthrow is too situational on other characters. Fthrow puts your opponent too far away, and dthrow is too easy to DI (although it has some uses, like to put your oppoent on the middle top platform, if your back were facing to it).

2. Decent. With DI, though, it's not easy to get consecutive uairs going. No knockback to speak of either. We all know the uair is a combo-only move.

3. Ok. Can get your opponent offstage for edgeguarding at HIGH percents.

4. Same as 3. only harder to aim and weaker.

Anyone have any ideas?
 

Rain(ame)

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Now that's a good question and situation.

2 and 3 seem to cover the widest range of your opponents movement. (Much like how Sheik would just Nair coming from a platform. That long behind leg....lol) Those two seem like the most reasonable options. While 4 could be used for a mix-up. Keeping in mind however...like with Marth's...the Nair can send your opponent backwards or forwards.

The first Option, however, is probably the sneakiest of them all. Most people would probably be expecting F/Dsmash. So naturally, you're going to get a shield that gets thrown up. It might be the safest option, as well.

I think the answer here, would probably go to the first option. I definitely could see the other options working depending on your situation, but the most common repsonse would be 1.

That, however, is just my take on it.
 

ChivalRuse

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Yea, platform wavelands to continue combos and maintain momentum are underused (and therefore often unpredictable). Most people expect you to throw an aerial at them from beneath, and so their instinctual decision is to shield. But the waveland grab counters this, and nicely.

I've been integrating this into my style more and more lately.
 

Jihnsius

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Sethlon frequently wavelands onto platforms with a grab, it seems like the only logical followup to knocking the opponent onto a platform.
 

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
Duly noted.

Still in all...it's something that not ALL Roy players do. Otherwise, people would be doing other than sheilding all the time. I would have liked to see what more and more people in the Roy Boards would have said about it, though.
 

ChRed2AKrisp

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I have a ****ty roy chival, I don't side B, like at all.

I just combo lolz. Remeber when I comboed ryan's marth? Falling uair dtilt nair fsmash XD.

But I did 4 stock PoF in a roy ditto, that must mean something significant, since he has teh ph1r3!!
 

Mitchy

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I have had more and more marth vs roy battles and I've only won a few of them. But I learn something new everytime so I'm just gona go over a few things i try to keep in mind during a marth fight:

-When marth is recovering throw in a counter! Works great and can lead to better edge hog
Switch up edge guard remember KEEP IT FRESH dtilt>FSMASH is always good
IF YOURE FEELING PRO EDGEGUARD: dtilt>overb upb upb= spike **caution incredibly awesome/hard**

*Definitely space every shffl perfectly because his grab/tech chase ability is stupid good.

-Mind games: DD WD to and fro, random shffls in place(bait him into attacking you)
-I like to miss a shffl and land dangerously close to being tippered, he attacks, and dtilt/grab>combo :)
-Dont forget little things like running in and dodging

PRO MINDGAMES: Everytime you lose a stock dont be afraid to slap your opponent and say "do that again and ill shove this controller down your throat."

Critique Videos= Best learning tool
 

handsockpuppet

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Welcome Mitchy. perhaps you should visit the Roy faqs, and http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235323. And if you're big on watching videos, please check out Sethlon's more recent vids. they're the videos you'll learn the most from.
To address your points

1) counter can be tricky and risky against the dolphin splash (Marth's up-B(since it's so fast)). use only if you're completely expecting it, as with any time you use the counter.
2) don't use Dtilt>Fsmash unless at extremely low percentages. A better player can DI away and punish you (the Fsmash is laggy, don't abuse it.
3) Dtilt doesn't really link to the DED, and you really shouldn't even be using the Dtilt for edgeguard. you can try just plain DED or Flare blade (neutral B). and the third up is a meteor smash, not a spike. plus, with the lag of the DED, if you try to meteor smash Marth he'll just quickly meteor cancel with his up-B and you'll get hit. the only time you reall want to use the third up DED is if he's at a really low percentage or if you're facing the spacies, because the firefox/firebird is easy to counter.
4) better than running and dodging, just keep constant pressure on Marth. he's going to try to stay away and then tipper. you have a tougher job. You need to bait him only and when he comes SHFFL a nair or JC grab unexpectedly to gain the upper hand. once you do that, keep low to Crouch Cancel and Dtilt, and when you're not crouching, grab and DED often.
*Side note* shoving controllers down players' throats is considered un-sportsmanlike and is banned from most tourneys. I think it's also against the law in some states. for the reasons stated above, it is my recommendation that you do not shove controllers down your opponent's throat.
 

ChivalRuse

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I have a ****ty roy chival, I don't side B, like at all.

I just combo lolz. Remeber when I comboed ryan's marth? Falling uair dtilt nair fsmash XD.

But I did 4 stock PoF in a roy ditto, that must mean something significant, since he has teh ph1r3!!
:laugh:

Yea after that combo you were like "I'm not going to try anymore, since I know I could have won."

You're such a sandbagger.

And oh snap! Ted posting on the Character Specific boards. :)
 

Sukai

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turn around....
Marth is an overrated match up, yeah, Marth spaces a bit better, but it's not impossible for Roy to get in there. Roy can crouch cancel just as well and his down air cuts all that stuff out.
I recently got back into Melee, so expect to see me more
Roy still has royal edge guarding, and in my opinion a better recovery, because Roy can cover horizontal distance and a wide range of it because of DIing it right. Roy will have to play more defensively and DI towards the ground more so than often, because Marth's deadly juggling is deadly.

Peach is.....****. No comment there.​
 

ChivalRuse

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Marth is an overrated match up, yeah, Marth spaces a bit better, but it's not impossible for Roy to get in there. Roy can crouch cancel just as well and his down air cuts all that stuff out.
I recently got back into Melee, so expect to see me more
Roy still has royal edge guarding, and in my opinion a better recovery, because Roy can cover horizontal distance and a wide range of it because of DIing it right. Roy will have to play more defensively and DI towards the ground more so than often, because Marth's deadly juggling is deadly.

Peach is.....****. No comment there.​
I agree with most of what you said here, with the exception of the part about edgeguarding being something Roy excels in. Compared with low tiers, Roy is one of the best at edgeguarding from onstage. However, this is mainly due to the godly knockback on his fsmash. Aside from this move, he really only has his moderately high knockback DED, his acceptable partially charged neutral b, his shruggable ftilt, his counter in rare situations, and his jab in super rare Marthesque situations.

His lack of a true offstage edgeguarding tool significantly cripples his ability to take advantage of normally punishable recovery angles. Other low tiers have at least one move that is good for offstage edgeguarding: Pika's uair/dair, Kirby's bair/dair, Y.Link's nair, M2's bair, Zelda's fair/bair, GaW's nair/fair, and so on.

They also have reliable onstage edgeguards like Roy: Pika's fsmash/ftilt, Kirby's fsmash, Y.Link's dsmash, M2's dsmash, Zelda's dsmash, GaW's dtilt/fsmash, etc.

By no means am I trying to say that Roy is worse than any of the low tiers. But having a solid offstage edgeguard is just one of those things that really helps a lot when playing against high tiers.

For example, I know that if Y.Link did not have such a godly nair, which feels like it was designed for edgeguarding, I would not even consider playing him at all. So anyway, I guess my point is that offstage edgeguarding can sometimes be a make or break ability to a character. Hint: Notice that most high level smashers are proficient in gimping.

So yeah, I don't really think Roy's edgeguarding is that amazing.
 

Nø Ca$h

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against peach: if u DED with f-u-u, then u can tech chase. the f smash is extemely difficult to hit with+peach is floaty. that means dsmash kills. always counter pick low ceiling stages. up smash if u can. if its to hard to get dsmash kills, dont be afraid to upthrow. u should only f smash if have the mindgames. peach is a killer in the right hands. a peach once baited me with a turnip, knowing i would try 2 catch it, and grabed me. i was being grab hitted with a turnip bouncing off my head.
 

abit_rusty

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Roy's edgeguarding is mediocre borderline crappy lol. I hardly ever find myself getting kills due to edgeguarding unless the opponent makes a mistake in recovery. I've been trying to incorporate double jumping off and then using DED to the third hit forward as an edgeguard, being able to just barely recovery the ledge with up+b. Risky yet unexpected.
 

handsockpuppet

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Marth is an overrated match up, yeah, Marth spaces a bit better, but it's not impossible for Roy to get in there. Roy can crouch cancel just as well and his down air cuts all that stuff out.
I recently got back into Melee, so expect to see me more
Roy still has royal edge guarding, and in my opinion a better recovery, because Roy can cover horizontal distance and a wide range of it because of DIing it right. Roy will have to play more defensively and DI towards the ground more so than often, because Marth's deadly juggling is deadly.

Peach is.....****. No comment there.​
What Chival said, his edgeguard isn't that great. and his recovery is the worst in the game. the difference between his and marth's is that he falls fast so he can't DI even close to as well, and then his up-B is predictable, slow, easy to shield, and even if they don't shield you won't be hitting them very hard. if you don't sweetspott you usually dead, which invites people to easily edgehog you.

against peach: if u DED with f-u-u, then u can tech chase. the f smash is extemely difficult to hit with+peach is floaty. that means dsmash kills. always counter pick low ceiling stages. up smash if u can. if its to hard to get dsmash kills, dont be afraid to upthrow. u should only f smash if have the mindgames. peach is a killer in the right hands. a peach once baited me with a turnip, knowing i would try 2 catch it, and grabed me. i was being grab hitted with a turnip bouncing off my head.
Tech chase is overrated. it's hard to do (especially versus a half-decent player), and Roy really doesn't have anything good to follow it with (since his third hit of DED up has a lot of lag, and don't even think of using the dasdh attack). Do not Dsmash. the Dsmash is a terrible move. vertical hits absolutely suck. this isn't brawl. you can't kill anybody, especially someone like Peach, vertically below 140%. Upsmash also sucks. against Peach, forget about it. if it doesn't kill her, then you're screwed. Roy can't jump at peach. Roy can't even catch up with the DI parasol. Fsmash is your best kill move against Peach by far. And lol at your story, grabbing it takes like 1 frame.
 

ChivalRuse

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And lol at your story, grabbing it takes like 1 frame.
I think he meant Peach tossed a turnip above and backed off. Before it hit the ground, he moved underneath the turnip, ready to catch it as it descended ... but Peach grabbed him while he was still waiting for it to fall down. So the turnip hit him while he was in the grab.
 

Nø Ca$h

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no, i went 4 the radish in midair. peach naired me then caught the radish, threw it at me, then i shielded. it bounced off my shield, into the air then peach grabbed me from my shield. iwas using cf tho.
just because tech chase is hard to use doesnt mean it should be ignored. roy has a long wavedash that should be taken advantage of. f smash is too risky due to radishes and other moves. up smash should only be used on FoD or maybe other platform stages.
 

Nø Ca$h

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sry for the double post, psps have limited text space on thier web browser.
dwn smash is reliable.floaty characters are very vulnarable to vertical knockback.dsmash kills peach on FD at 105%.it does however have atrocious wind down lag tho.so it should only be used if ur sure it would hit + do not abuse.peach still ***** tho.

@handsockpuppet: the way u talk about roy is very discouraging. u talk about him like he is horrible. yea he is bad but this is the roy boards, where roy players try to improve.
 

Jihnsius

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Roy -is- terrible, and the sooner you accept it the sooner you'll improve. I agree downsmash is situationally useful against floaties. You can set it up with a forward B to pull her off the ground and practically immobilize her (aside from reaction aerials and dodging,) if you're not too close you won't get naired. The upsmash's major problem is that it is multiple hits and if it is predicted even the slightest, you'll have it SDId and be punished terribly. Unless you knew the opponent couldn't SDI or wouldn't read it coming, or if you could aim it to hit with the side for only one or two hits, it's pretty much a bad idea against anyone. A great substitute for the upsmash is flare blade or uptilt. Flare blade has a lot of vertical reach straight above and slightly behind Roy's head and will knock them nearly straight forward. Uptilt doesn't have as great of range with it's sweetspot, but has a surprisingly larger sweetspot than most other of his other tilts and aerials.
 

Nø Ca$h

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yeah, i get it. roy is trash. even in his own fire emblem he sucks. but he CAN be played good. and his up smash shouldnt have been mentioned, my mistake. but if roy cant get a kill, up throw at like 200% should be a last resort. the easiest way to beat a peach is to switch to marth. ull save ur self trouble
 

Jihnsius

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Yeah, I've seen a few situations where Roy players could've up-thrown for the kill but didn't because they didn't know it was an option. It's fairly strong and can kill (if I recall correctly) Fox and Falco around 200% on FD, and most other floaties a fair bit lower.
 

Cactuar

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False, Roy's upsmash is a good move. I use it a lot, but I'm also a big fan of using Marth's upsmash. I've won many a tournament match because of smart upsmash usage. :laugh:
 

Nø Ca$h

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yeah but your cactuar. how would the up smash be applied against a good peach?
another thing that should be mentioned is not to dtilt against peach. CC is a death wish.
 

ChivalRuse

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Do any of Roy's aerials have enough stun that, when Peach CCs, you can actually jump again (EDIT: OR buffer a roll) before her downsmash hits. I feel like it would be nice if I could just start approaching Peach (because I have to, that little turnip spamming wench) with a move, and then get out quick if she CCs.

If anyone knows the answer to this question great. If none of his aerials are reliable for this purpose, I might just space fairs so even if her dsmash does come out fast enough, I'll be out of range.
 
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