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The New De-Sync/AI Thread

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,259
Location
Massachusetts
Wobbles the Phoenix said:
Excellent. If you have questions about how to perform a de-sync, post here. If you find a new de-sync, post here or link to a place it's been mentioned. If you find a nuance to an old de-sync that I do not cover in this post, put that information here and I can update. If I happen to post a complete and utter falsehood, then we'll pretend it's true so I don't feel bad. Or you can post here and I'll eliminate it.

This also can be a place to post weird little tidbits about Nana's AI.
I'll try to keep it in an organized fashion like Wobbles. If I misnamed or incorrectly credited a de-sync, feel free to correct me.

I. De-Syncs

First, a definition. De-synching is the action of seperately controlling the Ice Climbers (i.e., you control both Popo and Nana at different times, rather than both at the same time). Normally, when you input a move, Popo will respond, and Nana will respond to the same move a few frames after. When you de-sync, you widen that gap so that you can input a move for Popo, then input a move for Nana at a different time.

Instead of just shooting an Ice Block, you can have Popo shoot an Ice Block, then Nana shoot an Ice Block, then Popo, and so on. You can also input different controls for both of them. For example, you can have Popo f-smash, followed by Nana Ice Block, followed by Popo jumping Blizzard, and so on.

To stay de-synched, you must time their moves so that both Ice Climbers are always occupied. By this, I mean that if Popo is shooting an Ice Block, to stay desynched, you must input another move before Popo recovers from the animation lag. An elementary way to do this is by rhythmically tapping a button, such as B, so that they maintain an equal interval of time between every move.

If you don't understand this definition, I recommend watching these videos. The first is a guide to de-synching in Melee - keep in mind that most of the de-syncs demonstrated in that video are not in Brawl. The second is a Brawl match with lots of effective de-synching.

The following are the known ways to de-sync in Brawl.




1: Buffer De-Sync. Perform any move, other than Belay or Squall Hammer, and near the end of the duration, buffer a quick dash in the opposite direction. You must let go of the control stick before the lag ends. It's a little easier to pull off than the Turnaround De-Sync, but the principle is the same. When you land, Nana will dash in that direction, and Popo will only turn around, allowing you to de-sync.

Credit: Speedsk8er found that it could be done for aerials on 03-17-2008, on 3-31-2008, I built on it, finding that it indeed worked with other moves.

2: Blonde Roll. Press L and Back simulaneously: Popo rolls backwards, and Nana rolls in the wrong direction.

Credit: Som posted this on 02-25-2008.

3: Dash-Dance De-Sync. Simply Dash-Dance and input a command, and only Popo will react. Nana can't pivot or dash-dance, and will humorously slide around in confusion.

Credit: Existed in Melee, confirmed by OoNoiRoO on 02-02-2008.

4: Dash/Smash De-Sync. Dash in the direction opposite to where you're facing, and hit A. You should have Popo charge a smash, and Nana dash attack. If they both charge a smash, you hit A too quickly, if they both dash attack, you hit A too slowly.

Credit: Also existed in Melee, confirmed by me on 02-16-2008.

5: D-Tilt De-Sync. D-Tilt, hold diagonally down in the opposite direction, then input a move. Nana will act alone. This De-Sync is interesting because it doesn't have to connect with an opponent, but the number of moves you can de-sync with are very limited (d-tilt, followed by Squall Hammer, d-tilt, f-tilt, f-smash, or jab if I recall correctly).

Credit: Discovered by VirtualVoid on 03-31-2008.

6: Grab De-Sync. The Ice Climbers de-sync when you grab. You can c-stick smashes, causing Popo to headbutt and Nana to smash. C-stick + Z to have Popo headbutt and Nana charge a smash. You can also control Nana during a throw, allowing you to combo, or to chain grab. For example, d-throw to f-air (Nana) chains at low percentages.

Credit: Classic de-sync from Melee, first noted by Wobbles the Phoenix on 02-04-2008.

7: Hit De-Sync. In Brawl, you can de-sync after any A-button move that connects with an opponent. For any aerial sans b-air, fastfall so that you land during the animation, and input a command while the lag is ending. For b-air, simply hit an opponent, and hold the command near the end of the animation. For ground attacks, wait until the animation is finishing, and input a move for Nana near the end.

Credit: Smasher89 and Speedsk8er both discovered this independently, and I cracked it 03-17-2008, and then RE-cracked it 03-30-2008.

8: Initial Dash De-Sync. Jam the control stick in the direction opposite to where you're facing, let go, and towards the end of the dash, input Blizzard, Ice Block, or Shield + any move. Only Nana responds at first, so she Blizzards, Ice Blocks, or Shields alone, leaving Popo to do anything. The timing on this is tricky, but in my opinion worth learning.

Credit: Discovered by me on 02-16-2008. I tested this in Melee and found out that this was possible, but harder to do and less useful because Ice Block came out slower.

9: Ledge/Belay De-Sync. Belay tether to the edge. Nana's invincibility lasts for much longer, allowing Popo alone to get onto the stage. Easy way to set up a floating edgeguard. Alternatively, you can drop down and then jump, causing Nana to get up from the ledge, and Popo to re-grab it.

Credit: Found by me on 03-09-2008.

10: Pivot A. The Pivot De-Sync is one of the fastest and I recommend learning it. Nana can't pivot, and will run backwards whenever you attempt to do so. Pivoting into a jab, tilt, or smash (sans u-smash) will cause Popo to pivot the move, and Nana to dash attack in front of you.

Credit: Existed in Melee, first thing I tried in Brawl, confirmed by me on 02-16-2008.

11: Pivot B. Pivoting Blizzard or Ice Block results in Popo following your command, and Nana free to follow up with any move. It is exactly like "Pivot A", but Nana doesn't dash attack. A common use for this is Pivoted Ice Block to short-hopped Blizzard, to short-hopped Blizzard, and so on.

Credit: Existed in Melee, first thing I tried in Brawl, confirmed by me on 02-16-2008.

12: Pivot to the Ledge. If you stand right next to the ledge, dash towards the ledge, and immediately pivot away, Nana will slide onto the ledge. A quick way to have only Nana edgehog. The pivot has to be frame perfect, or at least close to it.

Credit: Me on 03-31-2008.

13: Platform Fall De-Sync. Right before landing on a platform, press down. Popo drops through the platform, and Nana lands on it.

Credit: Discovered by Som on 02/25/2008.

14: Run/Roll De-Sync. Dash, and almost immediately hit L/R. Popo should roll, leaving Nana free to de-sync.

Credit: Added by me on 03-30-2008.

15: SHFF De-Sync. Short-hop, fastfall, and Popo lands a moment before Nana. Timing is hard, but you can input a move so that either Popo or Nana does it, but not both. For example, as Popo lands, if you input Blizzard, only Nana will do it. However, if you input an f-smash, Popo will smash and Nana will not.

Credit: Discovered by me on 03-21-2008.

16: Start De-Sync. Pause the game with Start, press A to exit the pause window, and immediately let go of A. Only Nana will jab, much like 13 (below). Disruptive in a real game, but can be used online for an instant desynch.

Credit: slacker! found this on 03-13-2008.

17: Starting De-Sync. The Ice Climbers begin the match de-synced. Input something (for example, Ice Block) at the beginning of the match, and let go after the game begins. Nana will Ice Block, Popo won't.

Credit: Was in Melee, confirmed by Chu Dat at Pound 3 on 02-02-2008.

18: Squall De-Sync. Over-B, and input a move at the end of the Squall Hammer animation. If timed correctly, only Nana should respond. Mac2942 noticed that there is a period of synchronization before you can de-sync, you can hold it by spamming Ice Blocks in opposite directions or taunting, and finally de-sync by inputting a move.

Credit: Discovered by KazenoZ, 03-08-2008.

19: Tilt De-Sync. By tilting the control stick in a diagonal direction and hitting A simultaneously, it is possible to have Popo and Nana perform different tilts. Because the tilts have different durations, you can de-sync afterwards.

Credit: Discovered by Som on 02-25-2008.

20: Tipper De-Sync. If you space correctly, you can have only Popo hit the opponent with a move such as f-tilt. Nana, who doesn't suffer hitlag, will be active before Popo.

Credit: Speedsk8er in Melee.

21: Trip De-Sync. Sometimes, one Ice Climber will randomly trip. If this happens, although annoying, you can use it to de-sync while the other Climber stands up.

Credit: Wobbles the Phoenix found this on 02-08-2008.

22: Turnaround De-Sync. By lightly flicking the opposite direction, Popo will turn around, and Nana will do a short forward dash. To understand what I mean, think the second controller motion in a Pivot.

Credit: Good de-sync discovered by Speedsk8er in Melee (correct me if I'm wrong), confirmed by me, 03-17-2008.

23: Z-Roll De-Sync. Press Z and Back at the same time. Popo rolls backwards and Nana grabs. This is an easy de-sync to learn.

Credit: Discovered by Som on 02-25-2008, independly discovered and described by KazenoZ.


II. AI/Nana oddities

<to be completed>

I believe that wraps it up for what we've found so far. AI tidbits and perhaps CG info will come later. If you have a better suggestion for the format of this thread, suggest away.

I'd also like to conduct a poll. Select one.

De-sync/De-Sync (De-yncing)
Desynch (Desynching)
Desync (Desyncing)
Da-sink (Yeah, don't actually choose this one.)
D-SNK?
???
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Location
Fayetteville, NC
Man, I was planning on doing a new desynch thread, but oh well this is still good. Don't forget about the reverse roll desynch. Hitting back and L makes Popo roll backwards as Nana rolls in the opposite direction, I forgot who discovered this though.

EDIT:

Please add a description as to what desynching is so we won't get any more questions about it.
 

choknater

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Sweet. You're too good Kyu Puff. That is a whole lotta desynch methods. (Except all I use is grab and Z-roll LOL, I'd like to try the others for fun.)
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
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Massachusetts
Two more that I just found:

If you dash and shortly after press L/R, only Popo will roll.

The aerial de-sync is actually possible with any non-projectile move.
 

mcnichoj

Smash Apprentice
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169
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I see no IC stickies, so maybe this should fill that hole?
Or Wobbles topic.

Eedit.
 

KazenoZ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
194
Wha? Someone found that Z-grab-roll de-synch a month before me? O_o
I didn't even know that =\
A great thread though, we sure needed it all stocked up again.
 

Corner-Trap

Smash Ace
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Yeah this should get stickied, along with a few more threads including:

-Chain/Infinite Grab Thread
-Ice Block Lock Thread
-General Ice Climbers Guide
-Video Thread
-Player Finder/Clan Thread
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Wha? Someone found that Z-grab-roll de-synch a month before me? O_o
I didn't even know that =\
A great thread though, we sure needed it all stocked up again.
Som said:
(3) *popo back roll nana forward grab. Back and z at the same time let go of the control stick quickly to have her do a forward throw towards the direction your facing
I believe it's what he was talking about, though your post was more comprehensible, so I gave you both credit.
 

Mac2492

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
78
This is a great thread!

I accidentally discovered the de-sync entitled "Blonde Roll" on my own, but I couldn't do it consistently so I wasn't sure if it was an actual de-sync or not. I guess it is one after all.


Oh, and can someone please explain what a "pivot" is? I didn't start learning non-standard moves in until a few years after getting Melee (even short-hopping was a mystery to me). Thus, I missed a lot of things that are "common knowledge" to most people here. =/

EDIT: Pivot is tapping the control stick in one direction, then tapping it in the other right away. Is this correct? I was too lazy to dash dance, so I just figured I would try doing this and following up with an attack. I ended up doing exactly what the description for Pivot de-syncing said it would do. (Nana dash attacks while Popo does the inputted command)

Also, there seems to be more to the Squall Hammer de-sync. I read this thread, completely skipped the Squall de-sync, then ended up discovering it on my own. The thing is... I didn't time it properly. Instead of having Nana attack, I ended up having both Ice Climbers attack in different directions with Ice Block. This in itself is pretty nifty. You can shoot forward and backward with your Ice Blocks if you do it right after Squall Hammer. What's even weirder is that the Ice Climbers seem to be de-synced simply by facing different directions. My guess is that this happens because the other Ice Climber has to turn around when you input your attack. You attack before Nana has a chance to turn around. Thus, you're de-synced.

So... Squall Hammer -> Ice Block (Should shoot behind you and in front of you) = Ice Climbers facing in diferent direction = Inherently de-synced while standing still... Maybe?

EDIT: Hmm... This is quite nifty. If you keep using your Ice Blocks, the Ice Climbers will continue to shoot in two directions. The neat thing is that you can use this to hold your de-sync. If you wait to long, Nana will turn to match the direction you're facing. If you keep using Ice Blocks, she has no choice but to keep facing the other way.

I'm not sure how useful this is in battle, but I can imagine some nifty Squall Hammer -> Ice Block Spam -> De-Sync -> Squall Hammer -> Ice Block Spam -> De-Sync... combos coming out of this. If you accidentally use Squall Hammer synchronized, you can shoot Ice Blocks (in two directions) then immediately de-sync your Ice Climbers.

By the way, I've been de-synchronizing out of this with a Forward Smash. I haven't tested other moves yet. (Other smash attacks SHOULD work, though!)


For some odd reason, this doesn't work so well with Blizzard -> Ice Block even though you get the same forward + backward Ice Blocks. This might be because the Ice Block is stalling some inherent delay that occurs after the moves. Squall Hammer might have a "higher delay" that makes the trick work. I really don't know why this doesn't work well with Blizzard, though.

P.S. I vote for de-sync or desync. "Sync" is short for synchronization. "Synch" is not. Nothing more needs to be said about "sink". >,>
 

Doval

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2005
Messages
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Puerto Rico
2492 said:
P.S. I vote for de-sync or desync. "Sync" is short for synchronization. "Synch" is not.
Pretty sure "synch" is an alternative spelling of "sync." Both are correct.
 

VirtualVoid

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 25, 2005
Messages
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Location
Israel
New(?) desync based on crouching, looks rather usefull because its quick and easy.

1. If you do a dtilt with both climbers, and during the dtilt animation hold down+backwards on the analog you can input a move near the end of the dtilt and only nana will do it.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
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Location
Massachusetts
Ultimatum: Is there a specific way you have to footstool jump in order to desynch? I've tried but can't seem to do it. I'll definitely add it if I know how to describe it.

Mac: Correct; a pivot is dashing in one direction, then quickly turning back into a standing position. The last part is vital, because if you don't do it, you will only be able to pivot jabs and f-smashes (because those moves happen to interrupt the dash). It is also necessary to do in order perform the desynch at it's fastest.

Cool find @ the Squall Hammer. Interestingly enough, you may have just found the reason why you can desynch from a Squall. I'm not sure if I should list this as a new desynch, or an additional section to the Squall Desynch.

Void: Nice find.


The Aerial Buffer Desynch/De-Sync (???!), like the Aerial Desynch, can be done off any 'A' move. For example, f-smash, then buffer a dash in the other direction near the end of the animation. This can be done with any whiffed move, and it's easy to do. This means that you can desynch off of any whiffed move, by buffering a turnaround, and you can also desynch off any connected move, by buffering an input.

I really liked the edgeguard in Void's video, so I was trying to find ways to quickly and easily get Nana on the edge. Not much luck, unfortunately, although it's easy enough to desynch and then edgehug with Nana. I did find that if you roll to the edge, and do a perfect Pivot, Nana will automatically edgehog, but that's kinda hard.
 

VirtualVoid

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I've managed a couple of times to dash (Or maybe it was a fast walk...) towards the edge and turn around (Pivot?) at a specific point causing nana to fall to the edge but i'm not sure what exactly I did. I'm trying to test this but every time I manage it I don't understand what I did =/

Edit: Ugh stupid april 1st thing... St0ck = t!me
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
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Mar 30, 2008
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Torrance/Irvine, CA, USA
i couldnt quite tell if you added this in, 8 looks sort of similar but no edge is required
just use upb while standing anywhere, the climbers will land at different times thus desynching them
by far the easiest way ive seen to desynch although not of much use unless ur opponent is way off the edge or some other event that buys you a ton of time
perhaps of use to people just learning if they are getting frustrated desynching but want to practice using desynched tactics
sorry if this is indeed a repost
 

slacker!

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OMG da-sink sounds like something Wes would say. rofl

da-sink Pops and Nana *****- true original gangstazzz
 

johniam22

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
19
Question?
I think i did something wrong here. I desynced my ice climbers for a long period of time and now it seems they have permenently become desynced. Or at least it seems so...because I don't even try and they desync or they get hit by an attack and get desync. Is it that I just got so used to doing it that,I don't even notice when I think I'm trying or has this happened to anyone else?
 

calprinicus

Smash Cadet
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Mar 18, 2008
Messages
61
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Seattle, wa
how about the super easy recovery desync:

1. When nana is running back to popo after being hit you can input moves for nana on her return resulting in a desync.

NOTE: Probably common knowledge at this point. I can use my desyncs as mind games for character w/o (good) projectiles. When you pivot desync you can charge a smash attack. You can have Nana be the one charging the smash. Do this by pressing over+a as you pivot. (the 'over' would be the input for the pivot and the smash attack.) Nana will follow popo with a charged attack (kinda floating following). If you change directions so will nana. you can have nana unleash her smash on either the right or left side! When your opponent approuches you get an opportunity for a charged smash and it starts a desync! Again probably common knowledge. since its so fast to pull off you can do when you get some good spacing.

I vote for desync
 

Elliot Gale

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In case it's not common knowledge, the Aerial Buffer desync can be performed using their Neutral B as well.

By that I mean if you do a reverse aerial neutral B correctly while you're landing, Popo will throw out an Ice Shot and Nana will do the opening of her dash animation.
 

Speedsk8er

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In case it's not common knowledge, the Aerial Buffer desync can be performed using their Neutral B as well.

By that I mean if you do a reverse aerial neutral B correctly while you're landing, Popo will throw out an Ice Shot and Nana will do the opening of her dash animation.
That's what I always do. It reminds me of the auto-cancel desynch from Melee where I'd Bair, Sh Block -> Nanapult -> follow.
 

Kyu Puff

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In case it's not common knowledge, the Aerial Buffer desync can be performed using their Neutral B as well.

By that I mean if you do a reverse aerial neutral B correctly while you're landing, Popo will throw out an Ice Shot and Nana will do the opening of her dash animation.
That sounds more like a landing de-sync (the SHFF De-Sync specifically), but I haven't actually witnessed this so I can't be sure.

Also, been meaning to update the original post: Both the Aerial De-Sync and the Aerial Buffer De-Sync can be done with any move (all 'A' moves for the Aerial De-Sync, all 'A' moves plus neutral B for the Aerial Buffer De-Sync). The names will be changed accordingly. ;)
 

Speedsk8er

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I don't have access to the wii right now so you guys test this out, plz.

Okay, you guys know that you can do a dash attack from the standing animation by smashing the analog stick to the side and csticking down, right? and you know how we can hitlag desynch, right? Well, I'm pretty much working on my non-grab related game. so I'm trying to figure out a way to effectively desynch combo(I did this in Melee too). Try an Ftilt hitlag desynch into an instant dash attack. It makes sense so it SHOULD work, hopefully.

I don't think it'll add much to their game but I guess every little bit helps.
 

Chilliman

Smash Rookie
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Hmm, Marth is the only character I can play effectively. Maybe I should try to comprehend this and alt ICs...
 

momochuu

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I was actually about to yell at you, but this thread is pretty informative.
 

YUNq PHR3$H

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Messages
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Ralph Lauren Store.
Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs Desyncs

So Much But I Only Use Da Easiest Which Is
Piviot-F-Smash o_O
Or Sumtimes Piviot-IceBlock -_O

EDiT: Can Someone Tell Me Teh Flashy Desyncs Or Point
Them Out In The Thead 4 Me D:
 

Fly_Amanita

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I'm not particularly desynch-savvy, but I stumbled across something interesting a while ago. I'm sure it's already known by some, but I'll say it here for those of you who don't.

It's possible to extend a dashdance desynch into a desynch out of a normal run. For example, dashdance into a normal dash such that Nana is trailing behind Popo a bit. Any time before Nana catches up, you can stop running, wait a split second in which you input nothing, and then input down+B and only Nana will blizzard. I haven't tested this with any other moves yet.

Although I can only think of a few practical uses for this off the top of my head, the ability to do a desynched blizzard straight out of a dash sounds like it could have some nice applications.
 

Arora

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i was wondering if this was a desync face opposite of your opponent while there next to you than turn around and grab. nana will grab your opponent and popo will be on the other side so you down throw into 100% landing forward smash or some other option. Im not an icee main yet so dont flame if its discovered already and im 100% sure it works.
 
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