The Neutral

[Taytertot]

Roy's neutral game is an incredibly essential part of being successful with the character and so i feel that maybe making a thread to discuss roy's neutral and any nuances others have found may greatly improve those new to our boy, as well as hopefully, coming up with new strategies for more experienced roy players.

I know that i am far from being great at this game and as such I dont intend for this thread to sound like it's suggesting that I am an expert at roy, but ive been putting in a lot of lab work with roy and his neutral game is an aspect that id love to delve deeper into and help others who are learning if I can.

Now im sure that a lot of roy's neutral goes without saying, I'll go as far as to assume that most players know that DD is more or less the foundation of all of roy's great neutral game options, but im sure many people still struggle to find what causes dashing to be more useful vs wavedash in neutral situations. Knowing when to use walking and standing for tilts in neutral vs when its more important to be moving around quickly. What options you have available depending on how you choose to approach neutral. What can be thrown out safely in neutral vs what gets punished (including which matchups drastically change what's safe in neutral). How to cover different neutral options.

I know im far from perfecting any neutral skills as there is so much to consider, but id like this thread to be a place where questions specifically about neutral can be covered in depth as well as a place to discuss theories, ideas or nuances concerning roy's neutral.

(I will hopefully be adding more to the OP in terms of great options if I have time or if others offer up ideas, gifs, etc. that are important to state or show for newer players in hopes to cover the basics and possibly more so that those who are learning dont have to read through many pages to find important info. If anyone post important ideas that i or others feel should be in the OP then I will ask the poster if i can add it before throwing it up here.)

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

I'd like to hear how you approach pivoting. I'm finding it to be more and more useful as I improve my DDing. Do you use Melee pivot Fsmash or Brawl pivoting? Video description below:

Spoiler

I'm trying to perfect Pivot Fsmash like PewPewU, but I can't deny the usefulness and ease of Brawl pivoting. However, for lack of a better term I feel like I haven't earned it. I kinda see it like Moonwalking with the C-Stick, like its cheating. But it is a tool available at my disposal so shouldn't I make use of it?

Beyond that I'm trying to work on what I call micro movement. Making sure I'm WD down from DD so I can land those quick turns to Dtilt. Consistently Dtilt left and right, in case I whiff one side etc.

All in all my goal is to get my movement as slick as possible to cover as many options as possible. Any tips?

 

[Taytertot]

I'd like to hear how you approach pivoting. I'm finding it to be more and more useful as I improve my DDing. Do you use Melee pivot Fsmash or Brawl pivoting? Video description below:

Spoiler

I'm trying to perfect Pivot Fsmash like PewPewU, but I can't deny the usefulness and ease of Brawl pivoting. However, for lack of a better term I feel like I haven't earned it. I kinda see it like Moonwalking with the C-Stick, like its cheating. But it is a tool available at my disposal so shouldn't I make use of it?

Beyond that I'm trying to work on what I call micro movement. Making sure I'm WD down from DD so I can land those quick turns to Dtilt. Consistently Dtilt left and right, in case I whiff one side etc.

All in all my goal is to get my movement as slick as possible to cover as many options as possible. Any tips?

ive been working on perfect pivoting a bit but its not consistent yet. there's not reason not to use brawl pivoting when its useful to you but perfect pivoting will give you more opportunities to fsmash.

ive found that practicing different DD distances back and forth across the stage without messing up the rhythm im using has given much better movement in general, which i strongly recommend every roy adds to their practice routine. another very useful skill in conjunction with DD is the cactuar dash (crouch after you get into your full run animation so that you can dash back quickly or decide to dtilt and then dash away.) PewpewU has a video on cactuar dashing as well as shield stopping which i also think is a very useful for roy's DD game. shield stopping allows us to dash in and then do a retreating SH aerial.

also work on different wavelanding movements off and on platforms, like waveland off and then FF into DD. or wavelanding off a platform and then DJ back to the platform and wavelanding again.

hax dashing is something i want to start working on to since roy doesnt carry over nearly as much invincibility as id like him to from the ledge. the hax dash will make getting up from the ledge more ambiguous and it should refresh the number of invincible ledge grabs we have.

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

I too have done and have also noticed improvement in maintaining rhythm from that DD practice you mentioned. I'll add the cactuar and shield stop to the practice repertoire. I have been doing waveland practice but ill develop it further to make movement strings like you said. Thanks for the tips.

I haven't given too much consideration to the hax dash honestly. I figured I'll get to it at some point but for now I need to work on more essential tech for my level.

 

[Taytertot]

I too have done and have also noticed improvement in maintaining rhythm from that DD practice you mentioned. I'll add the cactuar and shield stop to the practice repertoire. I have been doing waveland practice but ill develop it further to make movement strings like you said. Thanks for the tips.

I haven't given too much consideration to the hax dash honestly. I figured I'll get to it at some point but for now I need to work on more essential tech for my level.

yeah the hax dash idea came from a melee thread i was reading about frame data regarding safe options from the ledge and one of the more surprising things was that marth has very poor carry over of invincibility from the ledge for all of his options which made me realize that as roy mains we all most likely suffer from the same lack of safety there so hax dashing may be very handy for roy so that opponents are more likely to respect our ledge options. idk just a thought.

 

[Bag'O'Nuts]

yeah the hax dash idea came from a melee thread i was reading about frame data regarding safe options from the ledge and one of the more surprising things was that marth has very poor carry over of invincibility from the ledge for all of his options which made me realize that as roy mains we all most likely suffer from the same lack of safety there so hax dashing may be very handy for roy so that opponents are more likely to respect our ledge options. idk just a thought.

You are definitely right on ledge invincibility not being not being safe. However lately I've seen Lunchables do essentially frame perfect ledge dashes that seem to have just invincibility frames to be a fairly strong option. I think Sethlon said it was 7 frames.

Here is a link to Lunchables vs Captain Birdman IaB! 93 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DgSkb0JQCI&t=3m10s

But I agree that the hax dash is worth exploring for forcing respect. I think you are definitely on to something!

 

[Taytertot]

i wonder if its still 7 frames or if it was 7 frames before roy's ledge drop got fixed. probably after though cause roy used to have so many invincible frames that ledgedash fsmash was safe unless they read the fsmash and dash out of range and punished afterward.

 

[G13_Flux]

roys ledge dash grants 8 invincibility frames. used to be like 12 frames.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm 99% sure it grants 7 frame of intangibility, used to give 12.

If you're frame perfect, jab, grab, down smash, side b, shield, and up tilt can come out with intangibility. Down tilt, Ftilt, and Counter will come out the frame your intangibility goes away

 

[G13_Flux]

i tested it earlier today, and have tested it several times before and got 8 frames all times. Ill go through it again later but ive ran through it on many different trials while compiling a list of every characters actionable intangibility frames. I did at least 3 trials for every character. Its a minor thing for all practical purposes, but for the sake of knowledge I will do it again

 

[Deleted member]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-947#post-20170352

I've tested it as well and I've gotten 7 every time, the .gif example shows a frame perfect ledge dash and he has 7 frames to act with intangibility

 

[Smash John]

I just tested it myself and got an invincible dtilt (frame 8)

Spoiler

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah I just re-tested it too. Its definitely 8 Frames. not too game breaking really as getting consistently perfect ledge dashes is probably never going to be a thing. I think getting somewhere between 6 and 8 consistently is the likely bet.

edit: I made this awhile ago. has all of the characters ledge dashes in it.
http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-3...edash-ranks-added.335019/page-5#post-20467353

 

[Taytertot]

well that helps considerably with getting safe moves out from ledge as roy. does roy get more/less invincible frames if he dj to get the lagless landing from ledge?

 

[G13_Flux]

no ive found no frames that I can jump on where he would get any more than like 2 frames.

 

[Taytertot]

ah thats too bad.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-947#post-20170352

I've tested it as well and I've gotten 7 every time, the .gif example shows a frame perfect ledge dash and he has 7 frames to act with intangibility

on a different note, lunchables, i know youre really into roy's movement, any in depth tips as to dash dance distances that are effective? ive noticed when you DD you seem to use a lot of complex dash distances and rhythms and im wondering what your thought process is behind your dashing choices. im sure it the mu makes a difference on your decisions so i guess what character archetypes make you change your dashing since i imagine fighting fox requires different dashing styles then puff or samus (im sure if we broke it down enough thered be different dashing for each character though thatd take way to long to break down so feel free to be more general).

 

[Deleted member]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-1059#post-20960019

I actually kind of covered this a little while back. Read the post I linked and the one I post afterwards (tldr dash dancing gives you stage positioning which applies commitless pressure onto the opponent, but Roy is a bit slow so sometimes you also use his moves to threaten specific approach options)

also lol oops apparently I'm bad, sorry on the ledge dash thing. I guess I don't know how to test them correctly?

 

[Taytertot]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-1059#post-20960019

I actually kind of covered this a little while back. Read the post I linked and the one I post afterwards (tldr dash dancing gives you stage positioning which applies commitless pressure onto the opponent, but Roy is a bit slow so sometimes you also use his moves to threaten specific approach options)

also lol oops apparently I'm bad, sorry on the ledge dash thing. I guess I don't know how to test them correctly?

sweet thanks for the link that definitely helps.

you referenced in the link that there are many melee guides already, would you happen to know any of the melee DD guides (or other melee neutral game guides that are roy relevant) in particular thatd you recommend giving a read for basic or advanced level players? cause im sure there are a crap ton thatd be relevant but some guides are much better then others and going through the melee boards requires a lot of sifting so if there are any off the top of your head that stand out then thatd make it a lot easier.

 

[BoyBloodRoy]

I watched this Juicebox (street fighter guy) video where he explained neutral/footsies and I made a synthesis that i think is pretty decent. obviously, you can put some specifics into it that vary from game to game, but here it is.

Prediction leads to reaction leads to exectuion
HOW DO I STOP INVASIVE POKES? properly space and time a reactive normal after a predicted poke or snipe their movement that leads to the invasive poke
WHAT IF THEY STOP APPROACHING DUE TO MY CONSISTENCY AT THIS? take space from them and force an option that you can punish or simply go in and hit them.
YOU CAN USE THE SAME OPTION/SET OF OPTIONS MULTIPLE TIMES IN NEUTRAL TO MAKE THEM EXPECT IT AND THEN PUNISH THEIR REACTION/PREDICTION (mindgames)
HOW DO I STOP THEM FROM TAKING MY SPACE? you can predict the movement in and snipe it or whiff punish their invasive pokes (it all comes full circle)
spacing and timing are universal concepts that are informed by character attributes such as movement speed/options and the types of normals you have

E: if i can get some critiques on this, its welcomed. its pretty tentative and im just trying to get the whole picture, this is only as i understand it so far
also, this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQQCan5oo90

 

[Taytertot]

I watched this Juicebox (street fighter guy) video where he explained neutral/footsies and I made a synthesis that i think is pretty decent. obviously, you can put some specifics into it that vary from game to game, but here it is.

Prediction leads to reaction leads to exectuion
HOW DO I STOP INVASIVE POKES? properly space and time a reactive normal after a predicted poke or snipe their movement that leads to the invasive poke
WHAT IF THEY STOP APPROACHING DUE TO MY CONSISTENCY AT THIS? take space from them and force an option that you can punish or simply go in and hit them.
YOU CAN USE THE SAME OPTION/SET OF OPTIONS MULTIPLE TIMES IN NEUTRAL TO MAKE THEM EXPECT IT AND THEN PUNISH THEIR REACTION/PREDICTION (mindgames)
HOW DO I STOP THEM FROM TAKING MY SPACE? you can predict the movement in and snipe it or whiff punish their invasive pokes (it all comes full circle)
spacing and timing are universal concepts that are informed by character attributes such as movement speed/options and the types of normals you have

E: if i can get some critiques on this, its welcomed. its pretty tentative and im just trying to get the whole picture, this is only as i understand it so far
also, this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQQCan5oo90

i completely agree with that. Sometimes using a model from street fighter can feel more vague in smash since smash has a much larger reliance on a more complex movement gameplan but i think youve nailed it pretty well there.


To continue the progress of this thread ive come up with a question that i hope can be discussed in depth here. Roy is a character who needs strong movement, but because his overall speed is about average he needs to use his aerials and pokes in order to mitigate and close the gaps in his movement, so how do you all work this out in your gameplans?

What times do you feel are most appropriate to throw out pokes or aerials within your movement to effectively box in your opponents and when do you use them to keep your opponents out?

What in a situation causes you to decide to wavedash out of your DD (since wavedashing allows you to use tilts)?

To put these questions more generally (though feel free to answer one of the other questions since i feel each can open up different discussions/solutions) what do you feel roy can accomplish with DD options alone i.e. dash attack, jc grab, jc usmash or simply DDing and what do you feel roy can accomplish with tilts, pokes, aerials? When and how do you transition between the two effectively in different situations?