Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[warionumbah2]

MK's lackluster neutral game, .

When you call MKs neutral bad are you comparing it to Sheik and Diddy? If not then please refrain from saying this, there's already enough false information on this character as it is.

Pre Leo

Spoiler

MK users never exploited Uair combos, so the only thing they could refine was their neutral. The gameplan wasn't to obliterate your stock it was to get maximum damage off every punish(mach tornado was good at this), also you anted to go for guaranteed stuff all the time which is why FF Bair confirms weren't used alot instead footstool combo's were being developed. You needed to have a firm grasp of MUs to get far. Uair combos weren't even considered BnB. MKs results during this time was mediocre in the US because of customs, Tyrant got 13th at CEO and Leo was dominating on the down low.

Post Leo

Spoiler

Majority are pocket MKs since everyone had a main at that point, people wanted easy options for the character. Uair combos became more common and became a huge factor in alot of MUs, the only thing stopping MK from being abused at mid level is the difficulty and risk involved in the combo(you could watch a video of mario,ness,cloud,pre patch luig and diddy and do exactly what you see without much practice, this isn't the case for Uair combos). New MKs will ask other MKs nothing more than how to do a BnB combo, they completely ignore fundamentals and how to play neutral in MUs. Then they'll find themselves getting bodied by each and every top tier due to their lack of neutral. Aba got away with this because his punishes were THAT good, G3 he had to face against players who understood the MU due to experience and characters which requires a strong understanding on what you can and cannot do in neutral. Look at the number of new Mks that drowned including Aba, then look at the old school MKs get high placements.

Thats how im seeing things atm, its also becoming more apparent when people use other characters because they're forgetting how to play neutral. Only way i can see a MK forget neutral is if they spam dash attack all day and abuse uair combos on someone who doesn't know how to deal with it.

 

[Comet Knight]

Hmmm... Funny how alot of people picked up MK for his Up air combo, I didn't know he had the upair combo until after I decided to pick him up. I heard he had limited options in neutral, I picked him up to improve my neutral lmao. That and I always wanted to main him because I love him as a character, just waited until his reputation from Brawl faded away. The up air combo is just a bonus to me really.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Two MK mains in Top 24. Impressive. Top 8 was interesting to watch too. Also going to have to agree with WN2.

Anyway a few things: Got 5th out of 74 at local this weekend. Got some nice wins. Played well.

Also I have a few things to do this week: Definitely plan on talking about a few things I found from labbing. I also have dozens of videos to upload. I took a few weekly events off in favor of recording friendlies and MMs. As a result, I got dozens of videos saved. Watched all of them so I can spot habits etc. They'll be uploaded throughout the week.

 

[ItoI6]

hey i havent posted in a while but im probably gonna give zss or sheik a shot for a little while. i got 17th i lost to void and nairo because nairo ****ing lost to toon link lol...at least it was 3-1. when i played void it just feels hopeless though you really cant do **** and then he kills you at 100 with dthrow upair so idk i just dont think its doable. i beat zinoto zan and waymas and didnt really get to play anyone else notable but i think i did alright. i literally played like the two people i absolutely didnt want to play but thats how nationals go sometimes lol. i would still use mk for pikachu villager and ness no matter what so even if i go full top tier ill have him around. ill probably just get bored and go back to mk eventually anyways

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

hey i havent posted in a while but im probably gonna give zss or sheik a shot for a little while. i got 17th i lost to void and nairo because nairo ****ing lost to toon link lol...at least it was 3-1. when i played void it just feels hopeless though you really cant do **** and then he kills you at 100 with dthrow upair so idk i just dont think its doable. i beat zinoto zan and waymas and didnt really get to play anyone else notable but i think i did alright. i literally played like the two people i absolutely didnt want to play but thats how nationals go sometimes lol. i would still use mk for pikachu villager and ness no matter what so even if i go full top tier ill have him around. ill probably just get bored and go back to mk eventually anyways

Hey Ito,

I don't know if we'll hear from you again but just wanted to say, great job at Genesis. Really happy to see the Meta Knight who inspired me first, really do well. I continue to learn a lot from you and I am now ranked in Michigan; largely in part to your videos I watch. Thank you again for all you've done for the community and I wish you luck in whatever you do.

 

[Jamurai]

hey i havent posted in a while but im probably gonna give zss or sheik a shot for a little while. i got 17th i lost to void and nairo because nairo ****ing lost to toon link lol...at least it was 3-1. when i played void it just feels hopeless though you really cant do **** and then he kills you at 100 with dthrow upair so idk i just dont think its doable. i beat zinoto zan and waymas and didnt really get to play anyone else notable but i think i did alright. i literally played like the two people i absolutely didnt want to play but thats how nationals go sometimes lol. i would still use mk for pikachu villager and ness no matter what so even if i go full top tier ill have him around. ill probably just get bored and go back to mk eventually anyways

Nice job at Genesis Ito, 17th is a great placing considering how stacked it was. When I saw who you lost to I knew you were probably annoyed that it turned out that way, Dabuz got your luck by avoiding all the MK mains... Beating Zinoto and Zan is also notable cause Aba lost to them both, you showed that it's not just about perfecting the punish game, it's also about playing the neutral properly.

 

[tyro8]

hey i havent posted in a while but im probably gonna give zss or sheik a shot for a little while. i got 17th i lost to void and nairo because nairo ****ing lost to toon link lol...at least it was 3-1. when i played void it just feels hopeless though you really cant do **** and then he kills you at 100 with dthrow upair so idk i just dont think its doable. i beat zinoto zan and waymas and didnt really get to play anyone else notable but i think i did alright. i literally played like the two people i absolutely didnt want to play but thats how nationals go sometimes lol. i would still use mk for pikachu villager and ness no matter what so even if i go full top tier ill have him around. ill probably just get bored and go back to mk eventually anyways

u are one of my inspirations for maining mk too when i saw ur combos in come on ban. good job at G3. if u feel like picking up sheik and zss its gonna be sad but good luck

 

[Ulevo]

What are you talking about Ito, Meta Knight obviously counters Sheik.

Good job at Genesis. You did well.

 

[W.A.C.]

hey i havent posted in a while but im probably gonna give zss or sheik a shot for a little while. i got 17th i lost to void and nairo because nairo ****ing lost to toon link lol...at least it was 3-1. when i played void it just feels hopeless though you really cant do **** and then he kills you at 100 with dthrow upair so idk i just dont think its doable. i beat zinoto zan and waymas and didnt really get to play anyone else notable but i think i did alright. i literally played like the two people i absolutely didnt want to play but thats how nationals go sometimes lol. i would still use mk for pikachu villager and ness no matter what so even if i go full top tier ill have him around. ill probably just get bored and go back to mk eventually anyways

I was so annoyed with Sky Williams' constant ****-talk and Nairo fangirling the entire set. Must have been frustrating to have to hear all that during the set. Regarding your future character choice, you could always try reviving your Diddy Kong. From what I've seen with the LanDiego streams, it's still pretty solid and with some refinement, it could be a solid secondary for the Shiek and ZSS matchups since Diddy Kong has such a great neutral. Also a good option if you don't care for MK dittos much. Anyways, it was great to finally meet you and I'm glad to see you've returned to the board. Edit: Good job at Genesis btw. The only players you lost to got 4th and 5th place. Unlucky bracket. :/

 

[Kaffei]

if only our fair auto canceled

 

[Furret24]

if only our fair auto canceled

Would it give you MK mains a reason to use it over other aerials?

I don't recall ever using it back when I pocketed him for a short time because bair did everything it did, but better.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Would it give you MK mains a reason to use it over other aerials?

I don't recall ever using it back when I pocketed him for a short time because bair did everything it did, but better.

I'd use it for spacing as in Brawl.
SH Fair while moving backwards, mixing up tilts and grabs when you read a shield.
Good times.

 

[Kaffei]

Would it give you MK mains a reason to use it over other aerials?

I don't recall ever using it back when I pocketed him for a short time because bair did everything it did, but better.

It's really damn good for poking a zone so you can threaten space the same way Sheik uses her fair.

Brawl MK can do this because it auto cancels. Smash 4 MK eats ****ty 20 frames of landing lag

You can watch the first few seconds of this match to see what I mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzyz9FxRePU

tbh it might actually just be too good if it auto canceled, but 20 frames is too much.. I'd even take 15

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

if only our fair auto canceled

It does. And it creates setups. Its just insanely hard to do lol

 

[Kaffei]

It does. And it creates setups. Its just insanely hard to do lol

It only auto cancels off a FH, not nearly as useful imo

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

It only auto cancels off a FH, not nearly as useful imo

I know, I'm just saying technically it does AC lol. Ugh, I miss having a real Fair.

 

[Kaffei]

I know, I'm just saying technically it does AC lol. Ugh, I miss having a real Fair.

oh lol.

yeah :'( maybe Sakurai will hear our prayers


btw I think I discovered something kind of useless but kind of cool

So the 2nd hit of fair "stuns" a grounded opponent or something like that.. So if you do the first 2 hits, ftilt 1 > up B it is a kill confirm at high %s... or at least it is based on my tests

 

[Amadeus9]

Based Ito-sama, love u dude, really

 

[ItoI6]

hey thanks guys its good to know people still care. i know people are ****ting on abadango for losing to the people i beat but idk its hard to be consistent with mk sometimes you just dont get the hit you need or he had a bad day or something. in the grand scheme of things all he did was lose to 2 guys on one day it doesnt really mean much about his skill.

i also made a video to clear some things up about upair strings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak9DNqItd-E

i also firmly believe when you are practicing upair strings you need to have someone DIing for you because its completely different vs cpus. trying to kill zss from 30% off sour dash attack is totally different when shes DIing and when shes holding nothing. definitely do what i did in the video or however you want to do it so long as youre using cstick, and practice your reactions going up.

you should tornado from dash attack at 0-10, but like beyond into about 10-25 you can just shorthop upair and do like 40% from a combo. it just blows my mind that people every time theyre in that range will just fullhop upair and miss, or do upsmash. also from grab when you land dthrow and they di away within like 20-40 range, look where they end up. usually its actually too low for fullhop upair, but if you run forward and shorthop upair or you can even dash attack them if theyre holding down+away and too low for even sh upair. you can basically do the same thing as i just described, start from shuair get 3 upairs and shuttle loop. instead i see people run forward and upsmash or whiff fullhop upair just stop its terrible. if anyone can find my set vs waymas he basically started each stock at 60% because i did this to him like every time.

oh and tyrant told me hes going to go sheik vs void now because it does a lot better lol

 

[Kaffei]

hey thanks guys its good to know people still care. i know people are ****ting on abadango for losing to the people i beat but idk its hard to be consistent with mk sometimes you just dont get the hit you need or he had a bad day or something. in the grand scheme of things all he did was lose to 2 guys on one day it doesnt really mean much about his skill.

i also made a video to clear some things up about upair strings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak9DNqItd-E

i also firmly believe when you are practicing upair strings you need to have someone DIing for you because its completely different vs cpus. trying to kill zss from 30% off sour dash attack is totally different when shes DIing and when shes holding nothing. definitely do what i did in the video or however you want to do it so long as youre using cstick, and practice your reactions going up.

you should tornado from dash attack at 0-10, but like beyond into about 10-25 you can just shorthop upair and do like 40% from a combo. it just blows my mind that people every time theyre in that range will just fullhop upair and miss, or do upsmash. also from grab when you land dthrow and they di away within like 20-40 range, look where they end up. usually its actually too low for fullhop upair, but if you run forward and shorthop upair or you can even dash attack them if theyre holding down+away and too low for even sh upair. you can basically do the same thing as i just described, start from shuair get 3 upairs and shuttle loop. instead i see people run forward and upsmash or whiff fullhop upair just stop its terrible. if anyone can find my set vs waymas he basically started each stock at 60% because i did this to him like every time.

oh and tyrant told me hes going to go sheik vs void now because it does a lot better lol

Dude clawing is sooo good everyone should learn how to claw imo or at least switch back and forth like m2k does. makes uair string so much easier to control

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

hey thanks guys its good to know people still care. i know people are ****ting on abadango for losing to the people i beat but idk its hard to be consistent with mk sometimes you just dont get the hit you need or he had a bad day or something. in the grand scheme of things all he did was lose to 2 guys on one day it doesnt really mean much about his skill.

i also made a video to clear some things up about upair strings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak9DNqItd-E

i also firmly believe when you are practicing upair strings you need to have someone DIing for you because its completely different vs cpus. trying to kill zss from 30% off sour dash attack is totally different when shes DIing and when shes holding nothing. definitely do what i did in the video or however you want to do it so long as youre using cstick, and practice your reactions going up.

you should tornado from dash attack at 0-10, but like beyond into about 10-25 you can just shorthop upair and do like 40% from a combo. it just blows my mind that people every time theyre in that range will just fullhop upair and miss, or do upsmash. also from grab when you land dthrow and they di away within like 20-40 range, look where they end up. usually its actually too low for fullhop upair, but if you run forward and shorthop upair or you can even dash attack them if theyre holding down+away and too low for even sh upair. you can basically do the same thing as i just described, start from shuair get 3 upairs and shuttle loop. instead i see people run forward and upsmash or whiff fullhop upair just stop its terrible. if anyone can find my set vs waymas he basically started each stock at 60% because i did this to him like every time.

oh and tyrant told me hes going to go sheik vs void now because it does a lot better lol

Thanks for that info. Also, we never forgot about you. We all still follow your results and videos as closely as we did before. You are the MK pioneer after all.

 

[Jamurai]

Switching to claw grip and setting a trigger (or Z) to jump serve the same purpose, ie. letting you jump and use the C-stick in quick succession. Personally I like trigger jump but to each their own, I hadn't even considered claw grip to be an option lol so fair shout.

To clarify I haven't meant to be harsh on Aba for his poor showing, criticising his playstyle or w/e. It's just interesting that he lost to Zinoto and Zan and Ito beat them both handily. Could be down to Aba just having a bad day as Ito said, but it could also be something more meaningful about what works and what doesn't vs certain players or characters. I've not seen the sets yet but will be interesting to watch.

Ito the god droppin the knowledge. I missed his posts.

 

[KassandraNova]

hey thanks guys its good to know people still care. i know people are ****ting on abadango for losing to the people i beat but idk its hard to be consistent with mk sometimes you just dont get the hit you need or he had a bad day or something. in the grand scheme of things all he did was lose to 2 guys on one day it doesnt really mean much about his skill.

i also made a video to clear some things up about upair strings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak9DNqItd-E

i also firmly believe when you are practicing upair strings you need to have someone DIing for you because its completely different vs cpus. trying to kill zss from 30% off sour dash attack is totally different when shes DIing and when shes holding nothing. definitely do what i did in the video or however you want to do it so long as youre using cstick, and practice your reactions going up.

you should tornado from dash attack at 0-10, but like beyond into about 10-25 you can just shorthop upair and do like 40% from a combo. it just blows my mind that people every time theyre in that range will just fullhop upair and miss, or do upsmash. also from grab when you land dthrow and they di away within like 20-40 range, look where they end up. usually its actually too low for fullhop upair, but if you run forward and shorthop upair or you can even dash attack them if theyre holding down+away and too low for even sh upair. you can basically do the same thing as i just described, start from shuair get 3 upairs and shuttle loop. instead i see people run forward and upsmash or whiff fullhop upair just stop its terrible. if anyone can find my set vs waymas he basically started each stock at 60% because i did this to him like every time.

oh and tyrant told me hes going to go sheik vs void now because it does a lot better lol

Hello Ito! Before you disappear, I just wanna say that I always look forward to watching your matches! Also great job at Genesis! :D Thanks for the mk info and for putting so much hard work into meta knight! <3 Pick up whichever characters you need! Mk mains will still probably enjoy watching you play him if and when you ever decide to play him again.

Yeah, I actually feel pretty bad for Aba since he had super high expectations for himself for G3, and everyone on twitch and everywhere else seems to give him **** for his placement as well as for dropping Pacman.

 

[ぱみゅ]

People would never be content no matter what Aba did anyway.
All I can say is that he tunnel visioned the Uair Combo, got a lot of free hits on him (maybe he wanted to build rage?) and that costed him big times.
If he works on that he will just get better and better.

 

[warionumbah2]

This reminds me of January-June 2015. Good times.

Edit: Also congratulations on your performance at G3. May as well get your Sheik up there since she won't get any meaningful changes.

if anyone can find my set vs waymas he basically started each stock at 60% because i did this to him like every time.

http://www.twitch.tv/showdowngg2/v/35686695?t=17m20s

Stale Uairs are so underused, Uairs combo into itself at 87%.

 

[Ulevo]

There are some characters that are harder to signature combo for various reasons. Mario's true percent window is very narrow, so are Luigi's and Pikachu's. Sheik is just difficult to pin down. So for characters like these, it is better to either go for dash attack to Mach Tornado, down throw to forward air to Shuttle Loop, or gain some % through stray hits or a combo and then go for what Ito explained. Mario for instance will be in said combo window after a simple down throw to up smash from 0%, and it is much more consistent since killing Mario with the signature combo is unlikely.

 

[Katakiri]

There are some characters that are harder to signature combo for various reasons. Mario's true percent window is very narrow, so are Luigi's and Pikachu's. Sheik is just difficult to pin down. So for characters like these, it is better to either go for dash attack to Mach Tornado, down throw to forward air to Shuttle Loop, or gain some % through stray hits or a combo and then go for what Ito explained. Mario for instance will be in said combo window after a simple down throw to up smash from 0%, and it is much more consistent since killing Mario with the signature combo is unlikely.

How's that guide coming along?

 

[Amadeus9]

How's that guide coming along?

Mario is a god literally immune to MK

 

[(Buddha)]

I need help VS. Sonic and Duck Hunt.
Tournament is tomorrow so I need some help please...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Against DuckHunt be patient. Very patient.
Keep moving all the time, use platforms a lot so try to avoid FD and maybe even Smashville.
Don't just ram in or you'll eat Clay Pigeons, Gunmen's shots, Cans, or even smashes. Don't hide too much on shield, he'll look for it and grab you. Also don't get predictable with rolls, DH is good at covering your roll options.
Avoid the Can, it has tricky movement (I mean, it is called Trick Shot for a reason) so be sure to look out for it.
The signature combo is somewhat easy to land on him, but if you don't feel too confident you can just juggle him. Also, abuse the fact that his recovery has no hitbox and go gimp him if the is forced to use Up-Special.


Against Sonic pray the gods he SDs. **** that matchup.

 

[(Buddha)]

Against DuckHunt be patient. Very patient.
Keep moving all the time, use platforms a lot so try to avoid FD and maybe even Smashville.
Don't just ram in or you'll eat Clay Pigeons, Gunmen's shots, Cans, or even smashes. Don't hide too much on shield, he'll look for it and grab you. Also don't get predictable with rolls, DH is good at covering your roll options.
Avoid the Can, it has tricky movement (I mean, it is called Trick Shot for a reason) so be sure to look out for it.
The signature combo is somewhat easy to land on him, but if you don't feel too confident you can just juggle him. Also, abuse the fact that his recovery has no hitbox and go gimp him if the is forced to use Up-Special.


Against Sonic pray the gods he SDs. **** that matchup.

The Sonic player never SD's... I'll probably go Falcon for him.

 

[Comet Knight]

Do you guys prefer to use Smash attacks on C stick or do you tilt stick?

 

[Jamurai]

Tilt stick:

Spoiler

Smash stick:

Spoiler

 

[N~W .]

Do you guys prefer to use Smash attacks on C stick or do you tilt stick?

I've used both Smash and Attack/Tilt stick. I've recently moved from Smash stick to Attack/Tilt stick and I've found the results to be better than Smash stick for both of my current characters and .

I've found, at least in my personal experience, attack stick allows you to drift left and right easier than using the smash stick to do so. I hold my GC controller with the 'claw' motion so it helps me out a lot using to jump, turning tap jump off and having as my grab button just for reference.

You can also do the Advanced combo stuff much easier on attack stick in my opinion, it's so much easier to do perfect pivot tilts or stuff like down throw > PP FF bair at low percents to start combos.

Only drawbacks I've been having with it is just messing up my smash attack inputs and if you don't place the C-Stick in the exact 4 main points of it (Up, Down, Left, Right) you can get nairs which have personally happened to me whilst doing uair combos.

That said, the advantages of it can't be ignored especially when players are finding more and more ways to death combo people with stuff like up tilt, SH uair and Falling Uairs. Or even a combination of the above.

Hell the other day, I landed up tilt > uair > uair > land on platform > up tilt > uair > uair up B on Town and City for an early KO and not randomly getting down smash whilst going for buffered Dash Attack helps a lot. Still, try both out and see what works for you.

 

[(Buddha)]

I got in 4th last night at the tournament
Have any of you heard of Button Check 4?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Hey guys. Got 7th out of 101 at yesterday's event. Went all .

I'm getting there.

 

[(Buddha)]

Any tips against characters who use tilts more than once like Mario?

 

[Kaffei]

Any tips against characters who use tilts more than once like Mario?

What problem specifically do you have against them?

 

[(Buddha)]

What problem specifically do you have against them?

Stopping mid "combo".
I know characters with sex kicks are good with this but Meta Knight does not seem to be good at getting out with an attack. I usually have to DI out of it, while taking a lot of damage. Also, can you help me VS. Falcons, who try to axe kick on the edge?

 

[Kaffei]

Stopping mid "combo".
I know characters with sex kicks are good with this but Meta Knight does not seem to be good at getting out with an attack. I usually have to DI out of it, while taking a lot of damage. Also, can you help me VS. Falcons, who try to axe kick on the edge?

u have 6 jumps and a down B that can be used to land as a mix up

just jump away