"The Millennial Kingdom of Demons" Megaten General/SMT Support Thread ("Demi-fiend-for-Smash Section Is Finally Finished" Edition)

Hmm, give me a LIFE STONE and I might consider joining you...

  • Give LIFE STONE x1

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  • Total voters
    34

amageish

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I doubt it. The Fighter's Pass characters come with one character, one stage, and some music tracks. Obviously the character and stage is out so that leaves the songs.
Considering P5 and the rest of the Persona series already has a ton of songs, you'd be hard-pressed to squeeze in anything but that in the pack.

And personally (not speaking for anyone else here) my negativity stems from the realization of the fact that we aint getting any SMT character in Smash, like, ever with Joker now-and-forever representing Atlus JRPGs now, and also this drought of anything that isn't Persona news. I'm tired of this, honestly.
We don't know what DLC will and won't include, with Joker being the first pack, so I don't think we can say for sure if they won't fit mainline SMT stuff into the pack somewhere. I mean, Nintendo did say the following in the press release:

The Persona games are a spinoff of the popular Shin Megami Tensei franchise, which has a long and storied history in the world of video games – with many of the games appearing on Nintendo systems.
I wouldn't rule out music, spirits, or even stages myself. We don't know how much music will be included - it could be a dozen songs, it could be upwards of forty. We don't know if spirits will come with the characters, which is very plausible given how we're getting DLC spirits for Let's Go Pikachu/Evee. We don't know what the stage will be - and transforming stages do exist.

I also feel like we're maybe downplaying the connection between SMT and Persona here? Like, they don't just share sprites - the female protagonist of Shin Megami Tensei If literally appears in the first three Persona games. SMT is an amazing franchise with a lot of variance that does many unique things and goes in many different directions - from Strange Journey to Devil Summoner to Tokyo Mirage Sessions. The Persona sub-series is a part of that - it just happens to be an especially well-selling part of that.

I eagerly await Shin Megami Tensei V news as well - and also maybe an update on that Nocturne remake they said they were considering. I also would love it if the mainline SMT titles got more mainstream recognition. But, personally, I don't see Joker's inclusion in Smash Brothers as counter-intuitive to this.
 

JohnOmaha

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I also feel like we're maybe downplaying the connection between SMT and Persona here? Like, they don't just share sprites - the female protagonist of Shin Megami Tensei If literally appears in the first three Persona games. SMT is an amazing franchise with a lot of variance that does many unique things and goes in many different directions - from Strange Journey to Devil Summoner to Tokyo Mirage Sessions. The Persona sub-series is a part of that - it just happens to be an especially well-selling part of that.

I eagerly await Shin Megami Tensei V news as well - and also maybe an update on that Nocturne remake they said they were considering. I also would love it if the mainline SMT titles got more mainstream recognition. But, personally, I don't see Joker's inclusion in Smash Brothers as counter-intuitive to this.
For real. The two series aren't even that different aside from the story/setting. The exploration is very similar. The battle system and spell names are pretty much the same. The bestiary and overall lore are the same. The fusion mechanic is the same, albeit simplified. The social links are an evolution and expansion of the demon negotiation system. Persona may lack SMT's branching storylines, but it still retains the multiple endings even though they're implemented differently.

When you look at it this way, it's hard to argue that Persona isn't Megaten through and through. For a gaming crossover between Nintendo's all-stars and a handful of third-party icons, Joker is by far the most fitting Megaten rep. I'm not saying you don't have the right to be disappointed, but you also have to be realistic - Nintendo won't go through the trouble of acquiring the rights to a third-party character for the sake of promoting something niche like mainline SMT when they don't even have a stake in the series (unlike say, Bayonetta).

Personally, I'm just glad the franchise is getting a playable character in Smash. And to be totally honest with y'all, I'd much rather play as Joker than any Megaten character aside from the Demi-Fiend and Raidou. I also think that some of you don't realize how lame of an addition Jack Frost would have been for anyone who isn't a SMT superfan. He's not Pikachu, he's closer to a Goomba or a Piranha Plant.
 
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PSIGuy

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No-one's denying that Persona takes a lot from SMT, asset reuse is the name of the game with Atlus. But the elements that made SMT an enjoyable, unique series are almost entirely gone if not ignored in Persona. Persona owes more of it's success to dating games and visual novels then it does the RPG franchise it takes almost all of it's mechanics and content from. The focus in Persona is on a cast of vapid archetypes who never grow past their initial character traits even if you supposedly have a maxed out bond with them, while conversation about the series is focused on. The 20 years worth of demon designs being recycled as Persona is more out of practicality than anything else; they're not the marketing focus and the majority of people don't even know their origins as demons.

I also feel like we're maybe downplaying the connection between SMT and Persona here? Like, they don't just share sprites - the female protagonist of Shin Megami Tensei If literally appears in the first three Persona games. SMT is an amazing franchise with a lot of variance that does many unique things and goes in many different directions - from Strange Journey to Devil Summoner to Tokyo Mirage Sessions. The Persona sub-series is a part of that - it just happens to be an especially well-selling part of that.
That doesn't mean much when Persona 1 and 2 might as well be a separate franchise to 3/4/5. When people say they're fans of Persona, they're not talking about 1 and 2. And it's sad that you say SMT is an amazing franchise with a lot of variance when Persona's success is the very thing killing the variety in SMT. Even Apocalypse suffered because one route tried to be Persona, while the other was a caricature of SMT as seen by people who don't play the series. For all the jokes the fanbase make about it, SMT isn't "kill your friends and god" like Apocalypse made it out to be.

Atlus tried a lot of things back in the PS2 era to try get a winning formula on their hands and we got a great spread of games out of it; Nocturne, Devil Summoner Raidou Kuzunoha 1/2, Digital Devil Saga 1/2 and Persona 3/4 And the latter's success meant we would never see that kind of variety again, because Atlus had found their golden goose and no longer needed to take any risks. (Also, lol at you trying to include Tokyo Mirage Sessions as an SMT game. Get that **** out of here.)

For real. The two series aren't even that different aside from the story/setting. The exploration is very similar. The battle system and spell names are pretty much the same. The bestiary and overall lore are the same. The fusion mechanic is the same, albeit simplified. The social links are an evolution and expansion of the demon negotiation system. Persona may lack SMT's branching storylines, but it still retains the multiple endings even though they're implemented differently.

When you look at it this way, it's hard to argue that Persona isn't Megaten through and through. For a gaming crossover between Nintendo's all-stars and a handful of third-party icons, Joker is by far the most fitting Megaten rep. I'm not saying you don't have the right to be disappointed, but you also have to be realistic - Nintendo won't go through the trouble of acquiring the rights to a third-party character for the sake of promoting something niche like mainline SMT when they don't even have a stake in the series (unlike say, Bayonetta).

Personally, I'm just glad the franchise is getting a playable character in Smash. And to be totally honest with y'all, I'd much rather play as Joker than any Megaten character aside from the Demi-Fiend and Raidou. I also think that some of you don't realize how lame of an addition Jack Frost would have been for anyone who isn't a SMT superfan. He's not Pikachu, he's closer to a Goomba or a Piranha Plant.
No, they're pretty different. Most things you listed are just asset-reuse; of course they're not going to redesign 200 characters every game. Persona's exploration and dungeoncrawling doesn't hold a candle to SMT (especially considering SMT's origins are in first person dungeoncrawling, while the dungeons in 3/4 were randomly generated garbage and only 5 bothered having actual dungeons). Social links as the evolution of demon negotiation is also pretty flimsy, especially when Persona 5 has them and actual demon negotiation. They and the time-management mechanics are more like what you'd get out of a dating simulator where you need to spend time with girls over several days to grow closer to them. Multiple endings are not a signature of SMT in and of themselves either; endings based on your alignment are. Persona's endings are explicitly bad/normal/true endings, while SMT's endings are not meant to be better or worse except from a subjective point of view.

No-one here is surprised that Persona was the game that got in, so I don't know why you bother bringing that point up. It's a shallow appeal to what's popular rather then anything with any meaningful history on Nintendo consoles, but it's not shocking that it happened. It's just disappointing compared to something like the Castlevania or Mega Man content where the history of those franchises, Nintendo or otherwise, is recognized and celebrated together. (I'd also argue the fact the newest SMT game is going to be exclusive to their system counts as a stake but I guess it doesn't count if the franchise doesn't need to be entirely bankrolled by Nintendo themselves).

You're free to be glad about Persona's inclusion in Smash. Plenty of people are. There's also plenty of places to discuss how great you think it is without going into a general full of disgruntled people letting out steam on a subject they're passionate about. I don't know what you expect to achieve by posting here. With arguments like Jack Frost being too similar to Pirahna Plant to be included you're veering dangerously close to ****post territory.
 
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amageish

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And it's sad that you say SMT is an amazing franchise with a lot of variance when Persona's success is the very thing killing the variety in SMT. Even Apocalypse suffered because one route tried to be Persona, while the other was a caricature of SMT as seen by people who don't play the series. For all the jokes the fanbase make about it, SMT isn't "kill your friends and god" like Apocalypse made it out to be.

Atlus tried a lot of things back in the PS2 era to try get a winning formula on their hands and we got a great spread of games out of it; Nocturne, Devil Summoner Raidou Kuzunoha 1/2, Digital Devil Saga 1/2 and Persona 3/4 And the latter's success meant we would never see that kind of variety again, because Atlus had found their golden goose and no longer needed to take any risks. (Also, lol at you trying to include Tokyo Mirage Sessions as an SMT game. Get that **** out of here.)
I agree that SMTIVA is, in spite of the name, the least apocalyptic of the mainline series and definitely suffers in some regards because of it. I also do hope that ATLUS opts to evolve and that SMTV is a return to form for them. That would be fantastic.

I also personally think that the Persona series has evolved way more then you make it sound like it has and is notably important for gaming history in some regards (in different ways then SMT is), but I also don't think that debate this worth having here and now. Agree to disagree.

My point was not that "it is a good thing that Persona and SMT are linked" or that "the fandoms of SMT and Persona are linked so you have to be happy when something happens in the Persona-verse," but that "it is a thing that Persona is a spin-off of SMT." That's why I cited the original Persona games, in spite of their being very niche - yes, they are less well-known, but they also still demonstrate that the ties between SMT and Persona as video game series are stronger then simply reusing assets. Nintendo directly called Persona a sub-series of Shin Megami Tensei in their press release. So, in that regard, I think there is still a chance of seeing non-character-based mainline SMT content come alongside Joker, as Nintendo thinks of them as the same franchise.

That said, Shin Megami Tensei deserves more then to be called "the Dark Souls of Persona games" by the media. They are not fundamentally the same - they are tonally, mechanically, and overall conceptually different. Anyone who claims otherwise is wrong.

There's also plenty of places to discuss how great you think it is without going into a general full of disgruntled people letting out steam on a subject they're passionate about. I don't know what you expect to achieve by posting here.
You're perfectly welcome to dislike Joker's inclusion and wish for something else. I'm just saying that I still have hope for some sort of mainline SMT content, something I have expressed hope for in this thread plenty of times before. I'm not saying that it'll happen or that you have to agree with me, but that I have a contrarian optimistic opinion. I posted it here as I recognize that the Joker thread is less likely to want to discuss the possibility of an Aleph spirit battle being added then people here would.
 
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Ha, At this point I'm just hoping they show something in 2019 and don't just silently cancel it.

I'm banking on SMTV being a good game that really tries to do something that people can get interested in the rest of the franchise and sub-series.

Atlus has exhibited exceptional strength in their breadth of stories.
Post apocalyptic cyber punk, detective thrillers, whatever the hell Digital Devil Saga is, Military expeditions, whatever.
If Atlus became known for High School x (theme), that'd be... a bit sad.
Just a couple of months ago there was an interview with Atlus where they discussed how SMTV's quite far in development now, to the point that all character models have been created. They also mentioned that a Nocturne remake or remaster has been something constantly brought up in their teams, implying that may be what comes after.
 

Idon

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Oh YHVH, this conversation has very quickly spiraled out of my control. I suppose it's quite better than a dead thread though.

Anyways,
Just a couple of months ago there was an interview with Atlus where they discussed how SMTV's quite far in development now, to the point that all character models have been created. They also mentioned that a Nocturne remake or remaster has been something constantly brought up in their teams, implying that may be what comes after.
Yeah, I read about that. Something about "getting the models to walk" or something of the sort. It's slow progress, but it is progress I suppose.

I'm hoping they have something to show in a Nintendo Direct or E3 at some point. Also hoping that it's not a post-2020 launch.
 

Idon

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Check out the new banner for the official MegaTen Twitter account, it's really awesome. https://twitter.com/megaten_atlus
Heh, actually already downloaded it a way back.

I was trying to subtly replace the "twitter" bit with "Smashboards" and other social media, but image editing isn't my forte and it diiiiiiiidn't quite turn out so well. Ah well, I'll let Atlus keep this one.
 
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TheYungLink

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I'm warming up to Joker being the overall SMT rep even though yeah, he's mostly a stand-in (STAND in bahahaha get it) for Persona 5 specifically. This is because, well, Persona 5 made a big shift toward being more like SMT in the first place.
  • You recruit demons by talking to them and answering questions
  • All enemies are now the SMT demons themselves, rather than original enemies like in P3 and P4
  • You can sorta kinda say that Persona 5 is written with the Law vs. Chaos theme in mind, being pro-chaos (or at least anti-corrupt law)
    • The true final boss is definitely a Law type of villain, and they're basically diet YHVH
  • Guns are back, even if they don't QUITE work the way they did in mainline SMT they still hit multiple enemies in one turn
  • The final "dungeon" is more or less a callback to the setting of most SMT games, with the enemies you ambush being modeled after robotic angels, even
Persona 5 is the closest the modern games are to mainline SMT, and I'm okay with them choosing Joker because he IS more of a character than most of the SMT protagonists and even past Persona ones as well (if Yu Narukami's boring vanilla *ss made it into ANOTHER game I swear to YHVH I would have flipped).

I know SMT being mostly known for Persona is concerning because SMT tells so many DIFFERENT stories besides just slice-of-life high school stories, so people sticking to just Persona don't know what they're missing if they give the rest of the games a chance, but Persona 5 was more than that, it had a message to tell about corrupt authority keeping honest folks down. It was far more direct about it than most Law vs. Chaos stories the SMT mainline games tell, and Persona 5 told this with a marketed, concerted effort of making the game more like SMT. Despite my personal misgivings with the game's writing sometimes bungling the central message, I always got the impression that the devs never forgot where they owed their strengths to.

So right now, my mind is less "man it would have been cool to have someone like Kazuya or Aleph or Demi-fiend in Smash instead" and more "I'm so glad they went with Persona 5 representation instead of Persona 4 representation for an SMT character."

Can you guys tell I like Persona 4 the least

I like the game and all

But it's not the best
 

chocolatejr9

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Honestly, I prefer the original manga.
That... Explains a lot, actually...

Also, am I allowed to be a supporter here? I've never played ANYTHING related to the Megami Tensei franchise, but I at least know what it is, and I didn't even need Persona's help to figure it out. :)
 

Idon

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That... Explains a lot, actually...

Also, am I allowed to be a supporter here? I've never played ANYTHING related to the Megami Tensei franchise, but I at least know what it is, and I didn't even need Persona's help to figure it out. :)
Pft sure. It's not like this is official or anything.
 

amageish

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Oh YHVH, this conversation has very quickly spiraled out of my control.
Er, sorry about that... I'll keep my Persona thoughts in the Joker thread haha.

Yeah, I read about that. Something about "getting the models to walk" or something of the sort. It's slow progress, but it is progress I suppose.

I'm hoping they have something to show in a Nintendo Direct or E3 at some point. Also hoping that it's not a post-2020 launch.
Yeah - do we know if the localization is being worked on simultaneously? As I know they confirmed it would be localized, but I don't know if that means they're working towards a simultaneous release or if it just means they'll localize it eventually...
 

Idon

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Er, sorry about that... I'll keep my Persona thoughts in the Joker thread haha.



Yeah - do we know if the localization is being worked on simultaneously? As I know they confirmed it would be localized, but I don't know if that means they're working towards a simultaneous release or if it just means they'll localize it eventually...
Oh, no feel free to talk about whatever here. This is "megaten" after all and not "megaten -Persona." And, like I said, I am a huge Persona fan and it'd be pretty hypocritical for me to exclude that.
It's just I've got the relative attention-span of 3 gnats, and this is a lot of text to chew through.

As for SMTV, you know as much as I do on that front. News pertaining to the game hasn't appeaered since August of this year.
 

amageish

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Oh, no feel free to talk about whatever here. This is "megaten" after all and not "megaten -Persona." And, like I said, I am a huge Persona fan and it'd be pretty hypocritical for me to exclude that.
It's just I've got the relative attention-span of 3 gnats, and this is a lot of text to chew through.

As for SMTV, you know as much as I do on that front. News pertaining to the game hasn't appeaered since August of this year.
Okay haha. Good to know~

Well, that sucks... Hopefully we get something soon. I imagine it'll get somewhat of a blowout at the Tokyo Game Show if nothing else, assuming everything is on-track...
 

ThatShadowLink

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Heh, actually already downloaded it a way back.

I was trying to subtly replace the "twitter" bit with "Smashboards" and other social media, but image editing isn't my forte and it diiiiiiiidn't quite turn out so well. Ah well, I'll let Atlus keep this one.
Gimme the download, I can't get it myself. I'll spruce it up.
 

ThugNanashi

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Great post dude it was interesting for kazuya and demi fiend too bad they are not in smash it could be fun to play i hope Jack Frost will be here even i love Joker. Hee ho deserves to be in smash than him because he is the mascot but if i saw Jack Frost will be an assist or a spirit i will be like that

and i will notice Atlus doesn't care anymore of his mascot
 
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Idon

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Quick update: Some of you may be interested in this article courtesy of Persona Central.

Highlights:
Katsura Hashino (Studio Zero director)
  • "An entirely new RPG which is neither “Megaten” nor “Persona” at the new studio" [Project RE Fantasy likely]
  • "...this will be a year where certain backlash will begin."
Kazuyuki Yamai (Shin Megami Tensei series producer)
  • SMTV is still being worked on
  • “new Megaten works”
Kazuhisa Wada (Persona series director)
  • "next 5 years will change. It will be a year of victory or defeat."
  • "we will continue to enliven “Persona” more and more"
Reminders:
Catherine: Full Body February 14, 2019
Persona 5 Animation Special Broadcast end of 2018
Persona 5 Live Concert April 2019
Persona 5 Joker in Smash Bros 2019 TBA
 
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Idon

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Merry Christmas, one and all!
This'll be me double-posting, but I think the moderators can make an exception this one time, after all, it's Christmas morning.
Sorry, but this was like, the only megaten thing I could find outside of Persona 5's harem gone wrong scene... and porn.

Speaking of which, small update, the Demi-fiend support thread is complete and up to the level of quality of the original thread for the Hero/Aleph/Flynn/Nanashi. If you're curious, check it out along with the redesign of the whole thing to make it much less busy and much more organized along with being more tailored to a general megaten hub.

If you have any suggestions or comments, be sure to speak your mind about them.

Again, happy Holidays, and goodwill to all

 

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Idon

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Add me to the support list, I love the SMT series and as far as I'm concerned the more Atlus representation the better!
Hey hey hey, glad to see another Megaten fan around here! Added.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways, another quick news update for all of you:
Multiple Game Companies have things to say in a Famitsu article about the upcoming 2019 year, including Atlus.
"Atlus: Starting with Catherine: Full Body, we’re also steadily preparing unannounced new title(s). Please look forward to updates on Shin Megami Tensei V and other titles as well."
Persona 5 "S", Persona 5 "M", and Persona 5 "B" websites registered.
 
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DrCoeloCephalo

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I got into Shin Megami Tensei at the recommendation of a friend that let me know about 4 Apocalypse on the 3DS. Thanks to his help and understanding of the game, I've beaten both the main story and golden face god in 4A and hugely enjoyed it and am now working towards finishing Strange Journey Redux and have taken my time to watch some of the older animated adaptations such as the original OVA. I'd very much like to be enlisted as a supporter and I hope to expand my experience in this series when I can.
 
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Idon

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DrCoeloCephalo DrCoeloCephalo Glad to have you onboard.

The Demi-Fiend write-up looks good so far. I'll have to take a look at the moveset when I have time. Oh yeah, and I made these for my SourceGaming article, you can use them for the thread.
Oh right, you just reminded me!

I always meant to link to your sourcegaming article and intigrate your moveset into the thread, but I completely forgot about it.
I'll get to it ASAP
 

PSIGuy

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Joker's inclusion put me in a real funk so I decided after dropping Smash Ult I'd pick up some SMT titles I had put down. Grinding for Macca/demon fusion fodder/evolutions in Nocturne for the final fights (got all Magatama, going for TDE) and playing SJ Redux since I got it for Christmas. I also have Apocalypse to return to. I'm still bummed about Smash but the prospect of more SMTV news and a potential Nocturne remake give me hope for SMT at least.
 

Idon

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Apologies for the double post, but here's some radical fanart of Demi-Fiend and Dante.

Source
No worries, anything for more rad Dante and Demi art.
Here's one of my personal favorites. There's a bunch of art of them doing cool stuff together, but its fun to see them hanging out casually.

demi dante casual.jpg
 

amageish

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So, Catherine Classic is on PC now, which is cool. Hoping this means we'll get some more ATLUS ports soon, given how we can't play the large number of PS2-era MegaTen titles on current-gen hardware. Maybe we'll also get a full game based on Synchronicity Prologue?
 

Idon

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So, Catherine Classic is on PC now, which is cool. Hoping this means we'll get some more ATLUS ports soon, given how we can't play the large number of PS2-era MegaTen titles on current-gen hardware. Maybe we'll also get a full game based on Synchronicity Prologue?
Oh God a full Jack Bros game would be amazing.
Especially if they add back the cut Jack.
killer jack synchronicity.gif


Also, I'm glad Atlus is coming around to the idea of PC Ports. It'd be pretty sad if all of Atlus's older titles were locked behind retro consoles and emulation.
It's a bit unfortunate though that I've heard that the game's capped to 30fps. It's not especially important for a puzzle game like Catherine, but it's a nice thing to have.
 

amageish

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Oh God a full Jack Bros game would be amazing.
Especially if they add back the cut Jack.

Also, I'm glad Atlus is coming around to the idea of PC Ports. It'd be pretty sad if all of Atlus's older titles were locked behind retro consoles and emulation.
It's a bit unfortunate though that I've heard that the game's capped to 30fps. It's not especially important for a puzzle game like Catherine, but it's a nice thing to have.
Definitely! I'd love to have Jack the Ripper Skelton return as a playable character as well. If it happens, hopefully they give it an official translation this time!

30fps definitely sucks, but I suppose its better then no port at all. I also definitely would like the other titles to become more accessible, as right now its somewhat difficult to convince someone to play Nocturne given how it requires a PS2 or PS3.

I mean, I know they're considering remaking Nocturne featuring Gouto (and also some human I guess) from the Shin Megami Tensei series, but given how we just got a Catherine port with Full Body on the horizon, I don't know if we should expect logic with regards to what they port....
 
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