The Mewtwo MU Thread (That Kinda Rhymes!)

[JesseMcCloud]

This may be a bit premature, but this is the general matchup thread for Mewtwo.
If you have any thoughts, tips, or questions specifically relating to Mewtwo vs. [character], bring it here!

 

[Vale]

Should we go through the matchups in a particular order or just comment on info for whatever matchup we happen to be learning about at the moment? If it is the former, I suggest we start with Fox, considering his popularity as a character.

~
Fox has a rough time recovering against Mewtwo.
FireFox = death. Low recoveries get stuffed with dair, which can work on both a charging and in motion attack. Horizontal recoveries are stopped by bair. Recovering high usually puts them in a punishable position. If Mewtwo predicts that they'll aim for a platform and doesn't want to go out, he can Teleport to platforms from the ledge and then meet the attack (would downb work here?). I haven't tested against Illusion, but I assume that bair can match it. Due to not having the considerable charge up time, it is a bit harder to work against.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Thanks for the input, Vale, and yes, we can just tackle the charater MUs as we get more experience; I'll update the OP as more info is contributed.

~
Fox does indeed have a rough going trying to recover against Mewtwo. He falls so quickly, if M2 bThrows him at around 80%, Fox is pretty much SoL. Getting to that point can be a challenge; M2's going to have to abuse the range of his tilts, or else Fox will have his way with M2's floatiness.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

So after a few hours of play (unfortunately, I only have Lvl. 9 CPUs to play against here in Montana ;_; ), I have decided that Mario and Luigi are going to be MAJOR headaches for Mewtwo. They both have some terribly strong aerials, and Mewtwo doesn't have a lot of safe options against them. Mario in particular has that blend of speed and power, and that [censored] cape of his!

 

[Shadow Huan]

Are we talking about only Fox? I only played that MU once last night against my old tourny team mate/sparring partner Life so I don't have an opinion on it... besides that it's highly likely that Fox still handily beats Mewtwo. the buffs made very little difference aside that he now has to fight Mewtwo like a Peach with bad priority.

after an hour straight of the MU I will hazard that Falcon can still **** all over Mewtwo, only now it's stage dependant, so counterpicking might come into play. oddly I won on every big stage we played on and got bodied on the small stages because Falcon can knee everything Mewtwo tries to space with; tail attacks, Teleport startup, Hover, even Confusion and Disable. on big stages Mewtwo can win and actually probably has a slight advantage because he can zone and counter zone with the Hover and Teleports into well spaced Nairs and Fairs. Winning this MU will require you to make Falcon misstep, and you can do that on bigger stages.

We played a few Ike vs Mewtwo matches and I feel like that might be in Mewtwo's favor. I'll need to play it more before I can really say.

ZZS vs Mewtwo is a battle of attrition, but one that Mewtwo should win more often than not. challenging her mobility is difficult and her nair is a nightmare, but Mewtwo can clank with most of her attacks and force her into a corner. I stopped bothering to try and edgeguard becase of her super slippery recover options, but racking up damage into an onstage kill is inevitible. on both sides actually, because ZZS doesn't really have an iron clad way of edgeguarding Mewtwo other than the Mewtwo missing DI hard.

Roy vs Mewtwo makes me sad. Roy got huge buffs and it shows in this MU. I lost all but the last two matches when I generally win nearly all of them in Melee

These are mostly first impressions and I haven't gotten total control of Hover yet, but I don't forsee current Mewtwo:M being a serious contender in tournament any time soon unless he gets further buffs (meaning i agree with M2k lol). Roy on the other hand... we might be seeing a lot of him.

I'm going to stay in the lab and hope that I discover something that changes my opinion, nothing better to do since Bowser got hit with the nerf bat.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Thank you, Shadow Huan!
I agree that Roy (and to a lesser extent, Marth) is going to give us some serious heartburn. At least we have Shadow Balls to lob!
Mewtwo vs Capt. Falcon is always going to be close, and stage-dependent, that's for DARN sure.
Is it just me, or does Mewtwo completely WRECK most of the heavies? Bowser, DK, and Dedede all seem to have little hope of escape once Mewtwo lands a grab, and he can intercept their recovery with laughable ease. G'dorf's tilts and nair seem to make him more of a handful, but the MU still seems to be in M2's favor.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I dk about Ganondorf, that might still be in his favor

BsB are only a moderate annoyence to Marth and likely Roy. they are faster now so the utility has been improved, but you have to treat it as if you're playing as Wolf. they aren't so much long distance zoning tools as much as they are for putting something in the way or following up.

 

[bountyxhunted]

can we talk about roy? so my brother is maining roy and i'm maining mewtwo ok i've noticed this is a bit difficult i've notice bairs help alot but what else helps?

 

[JesseMcCloud]

can we talk about roy? so my brother is maining roy and i'm maining mewtwo ok i've noticed this is a bit difficult i've notice bairs help alot but what else helps?

So far, I like using bair, ftilt, and dtilit's maximum range to safely poke, and throw out the random Disable (hoping for a lucky stun.)
I'm usually pretty defensive vs. Roy, but uncharged SBalls are great for safe pressure at mid-range if you want to take the offensive (like Wolf's laser, but faster.)
Your main goal should be to get under Roy and go for an air combo. His nair is brutal, but Uair should outrange his Dair.

 

[Zekersaurus]

Yeeeah... Hate to be "that guy" but it's way to early to talk about his match ups. I mean, It's undeniable that Mewtwo has improved over his melee counterpart (considerably in my opinion). I think Mewtwo actually has a lot of legitimate tools now. The improvements they gave Mewtwo may seem like just minor tweaks or gimmicks... until you figure out how to utilize them properly. That being said, lets not forget that it's not just about Mewtwo the people who choose to play him. It's also about the other "40 Characters!" in the game and the people that play them. It's sad to say but The Project M community is very small. We will never see the full potential of these characters unless the community grows.

Are we talking about only Fox? I only played that MU once last night against my old tourny team mate/sparring partner Life so I don't have an opinion on it... besides that it's highly likely that Fox still handily beats Mewtwo. the buffs made very little difference aside that he now has to fight Mewtwo like a Peach with bad priority.

after an hour straight of the MU I will hazard that Falcon can still **** all over Mewtwo, only now it's stage dependant, so counterpicking might come into play. oddly I won on every big stage we played on and got bodied on the small stages because Falcon can knee everything Mewtwo tries to space with; tail attacks, Teleport startup, Hover, even Confusion and Disable. on big stages Mewtwo can win and actually probably has a slight advantage because he can zone and counter zone with the Hover and Teleports into well spaced Nairs and Fairs. Winning this MU will require you to make Falcon misstep, and you can do that on bigger stages.

We played a few Ike vs Mewtwo matches and I feel like that might be in Mewtwo's favor. I'll need to play it more before I can really say.

ZZS vs Mewtwo is a battle of attrition, but one that Mewtwo should win more often than not. challenging her mobility is difficult and her nair is a nightmare, but Mewtwo can clank with most of her attacks and force her into a corner. I stopped bothering to try and edgeguard becase of her super slippery recover options, but racking up damage into an onstage kill is inevitible. on both sides actually, because ZZS doesn't really have an iron clad way of edgeguarding Mewtwo other than the Mewtwo missing DI hard.

Roy vs Mewtwo makes me sad. Roy got huge buffs and it shows in this MU. I lost all but the last two matches when I generally win nearly all of them in Melee

These are mostly first impressions and I haven't gotten total control of Hover yet, but I don't forsee current Mewtwo:M being a serious contender in tournament any time soon unless he gets further buffs (meaning i agree with M2k lol). Roy on the other hand... we might be seeing a lot of him.

I'm going to stay in the lab and hope that I discover something that changes my opinion, nothing better to do since Bowser got hit with the nerf bat.

As far as competitive play is concerned. Skill is a factor. Think about how far Taj got with Mewtwo in melee despite Mewtwo's jarring weaknesses and now in PM he's a better character overall. I think his chances of being a tournament worthy character have increased if only a little... but I could be wrong. This isn't melee after all. I'm not bringing up the skill vs character debate. I'm just sayin we really don't know if he's that bad yet.

 

[Shadow Huan]

can we talk about roy? so my brother is maining roy and i'm maining mewtwo ok i've noticed this is a bit difficult i've notice bairs help alot but what else helps?

Roy is a bad matchup for Mewtwo imo... sort of an inverse of Marth; Marth has to maintain spacing so it's easier to punish him when you get in... but Roy wants to get close, so you have to try and space him...

it's not unwinnable for Mewtwo though.

the last two matches that we played that I won were the result of me figuring out a few things about the MU.

I would need to see videos of you and your brother playing to be able to give any specific advice though.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Yeeeah... Hate to be "that guy" but it's way to early to talk about his match ups. I mean, It's undeniable that Mewtwo has improved over his melee counterpart (considerably in my opinion). I think Mewtwo actually has a lot of legitimate tools now. The improvements they gave Mewtwo may seem like just minor tweaks or gimmicks... until you figure out how to utilize them properly. That being said, lets not forget that it's not just about Mewtwo the people who choose to play him. It's also about the other "40 Characters!" in the game and the people that play them. It's sad to say but The Project M community is very small. We will never see the full potential of these characters unless the community grows.

As far as competitive play is concerned. Skillis a factor. Think about how far Taj got with Mewtwo in melee despite Mewtwo's jarring weaknesses and now in PM he's a better character overall. I think his chances of being a tournament worthy character have increased if only a little... but I could be wrong. This isn't melee after all. I'm not bringing up the skill vs character debate. I'm just sayin we really don't know if he's that bad yet.

Heh, I see where you're coming from, VERY well said. I just wanted to make this thread so we can discuss matchups that may be frustrating players new to Mewtwo 3.0 (Mewthree?) If we can help bring in more players who are drawn to the "hard to play, harder to master" character by discussing difficult MUs and specific tactics, strategies, and, as you said, help them learn the minor tweaks and gimmicks so we can "utilize them properly," isn't that better for the community in general?

 

[Zekersaurus]

Heh, I see where you're coming from, VERY well said. I just wanted to make this thread so we can discuss matchups that may be frustrating players new to Mewtwo 3.0 (Mewthree?) If we can help bring in more players who are drawn to the "hard to play, harder to master" character by discussing difficult MUs and specific tactics, strategies, and, as you said, help them learn the minor tweaks and gimmicks so we can "utilize them properly," isn't that better for the community in general?

Yeah... that's a good point. Btw, did anyone else notice that right after you drop off the edge you are unable to levitate. You automatically do a double jump. It really hurts some of the utility of the move. I don't know if that was intentional or not.

 

[Shadow Huan]

As far as competitive play is concerned. Skill is a factor. Think about how far Taj got with Mewtwo in melee despite Mewtwo's jarring weaknesses and now in PM he's a better character overall. I think his chances of being a tournament worthy character have increased if only a little... but I could be wrong. This isn't melee after all. I'm not bringing up the skill vs character debate. I'm just sayin we really don't know if he's that bad yet.

I hate to be the guy who asks this question because it's hard to word it without sounding like a jerk, so i'll just ask. how much experience do you have playing melee Mewtwo in a tournament setting?

even with the buffs, he still has several of the same fundimental weaknesses that made him a terrible character in Melee. and that was the problem with melee Mewtwo to begin with, the way that he was designed was such that even if you buffed him in terms of weight, damage output and added a few advanced techs he would've still only been like midtier. midtier in Melee will not be midtier in PM.

with all that said, I did say in the post that you quoted that those were first impressions and opinions, and if anything rather than huge across the board "OMG let's make him overpowered" buffs I would simply suggest a few very small adjustments, additional band-aids if you will; he is almost as solid as he should be and every character needs weaknesses

and for the record, Taj had much MUCH better tournament success with Marth than he did with Mewtwo. doesn't not make him the best Mewtwo, but it is a fact. Iori actually won a tournament going 99% Mewtwo, with more than a few high level players in attendance. and just because I never had success in the tournament scene with Marth, Sheik, Fox or Mewtwo, it doesn't mean that i don't know what I'm talking about.

now then, about that Roy matchup lol

 

[BigHairyFart]

Yeah... that's a good point. Btw, did anyone else notice that right after you drop off the edge you are unable to levitate. You automatically do a double jump. It really hurts some of the utility of the move. I don't know if that was intentional or not.

Try holding down like if you were going to fast fall, then start holding jump.

 

[Vale]

At low percentages against Roy, I was able to use a few utilts (to ~30%, I believe) and then juggle with some aerials to a decent percentage. I At 0% you can combo with uthrow, but once it starts to build it doesn't seem to combo, because they go too far up. I can't promise that my opponents have very good DI, though. I think that we need to abuse Shadow Ball as much as possible against characters that don't have a projectile. Roy's nair seems pretty powerful, what other moves should we look out for? Spacing tilts can help keep Roy away from you. Use Teleport to get away from him if he gets too close.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Roy's ftilt is pretty dumb against Mewtwo lol, diffcult timing to WD OoS to punish it. Roy's nair is really good, as is his DeD and grab range. over all he's pretty good.

and I agree with whoever said that the Mario bros will be trouble, very few exploitable flaws

 

[Vale]

I won't be getting decent Mario practice for another week or two. I know he has a pretty good grab game, how bad are his throw combos on characters of Mewtwo's weight? We can't spam shadow ball as much as against some other characters because of the cape. Is Confusion viable against fireballs?

Random note on Roy: At 60% Roy, hovering uair --> fair and hovering fair --> uair both combo, but there may be better options.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I won't be getting decent Mario practice for another week or two. I know he has a pretty good grab game, how bad are his throw combos on characters of Mewtwo's weight? We can't spam shadow ball as much as against some other characters because of the cape. Is Confusion viable against fireballs?

Random note on Roy: At 60% Roy, hovering uair --> fair and hovering fair --> uair both combo, but there may be better options.

Confusion has too much endlag to work on fireballs, as Mario is usually coming at you from the air when he throws them.

 

[Vale]

utilt and up angled ftilt both clank with it. Fireballs are somewhat slow, maybe we should just try powershielding them?

 

[Vale]

Mewtwo can fair --> dair certain characters (it appears to be fast fallers and heavier ones).
Fox: works as a true combo from approximately 41-79%. DI might make fringe cases escapable, and fringe percentages might actually be a true combo that I can't execute yet. If they don't shine or jump immediately, you can also probably get it to work in a few other cases. If this doesn't kill, it will deal 24-28% fresh and might be able to be followed up.

 

[Toxicroaker]

I am having a hard time vs. squirtle with the other characters I play, and I would like to know if mewtwo is very good against him.

 

[bountyxhunted]

dtilts are squirtles worst enemy

 

[StriderAaron360]

I've been having a whole lot of trouble with Squirtle. His constant aerials makes it hard to punish him, and side B along with crouching makes it impossible to hit him with Shadow Balls. Thoughts?

 

[DahremRuhar]

I'm having trouble with G&W. Might be cause I'm terrible, but I'd like to know everyone else's thoughts on the matchup.

 

[Zekersaurus]

I hate to be the guy who asks this question because it's hard to word it without sounding like a jerk, so i'll just ask. how much experience do you have playing melee Mewtwo in a tournament setting?

Is that rhetorical question? I just came from Smashacre Frostbite where I played Mewtwo. I've Played Mewtwo in all of the tournaments I've been in. I was introduced to competitive scene in 2007, where I started out maining Mewtwo. I don't claim to be good lol, but experience?... yeah kinda.

even with the buffs, he still has several of the same fundimental weaknesses that made him a terrible character in Melee. and that was the problem with melee Mewtwo to begin with, the way that he was designed was such that even if you buffed him in terms of weight, damage output and added a few advanced techs he would've still only been like midtier. midtier in Melee will not be midtier in PM.

Well, yeah. I made a point to mention that this is PM not melee. But he's is still a better character than he was and PM plays similar enough to melee for my statement to be relevant at least.

with all that said, I did say in the post that you quoted that those were first impressions and opinions, and if anything rather than huge across the board "OMG let's make him overpowered" buffs I would simply suggest a few very small adjustments, additional band-aids if you will; he is almost as solid as he should be and every character needs weaknesses

and for the record, Taj had much MUCH better tournament success with Marth than he did with Mewtwo. doesn't not make him the best Mewtwo, but it is a fact. Iori actually won a tournament going 99% Mewtwo, with more than a few high level players in attendance. and just because I never had success in the tournament scene with Marth, Sheik, Fox or Mewtwo, it doesn't mean that i don't know what I'm talking about.

Yeaah, his Marth... M2 is low tier for reason but look, for anyone who has had success with Mewtwo, (Lori, Taj, whoever) they had to make due with what they had. I don't consider these slight tweaks and buffs insignificant because anyone who was pro with Mewtwo in melee had to survive on a lot less. The only question is "how much will these buffs benefit him in THIS game?". You may come up with a logical conclusion and turnout may actually turn out to be correct in the end but I think we can only rightfully answer this question after the enough time and dedication has be put into the game. That being said... If this games stays alive long enough I'm sure it will go through several updates before we reach the height of competitive play.

Anyways, this is getting off topic.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Lori?

lol Iori, capital I son! :3

Taj's Marth is scary, except against like Mango and Armada lol

and yeah the topic is slightly derailed.

so to get on topic, what are your opinions on the matchups you have played in PM with Mewtwo thusfar? I'm sure that you have opinions and I'm genuinely interested in reading them

 

[StriderAaron360]

Characters with non stop, fast fair/nair jump ins or projectiles (specifically Dr. Mario's pills) can be a challenge. Disjointed hitboxes are annoying as well. Mewtwo's nair can be useful for stopping some predictable approaches and cancelling out projectiles, but disjointed, short-hopped attacks can snuff nair. I've been playing around with OOS short hopped Confusion. It's pretty useful against constant jumpers, but it's cool down is kinda long, so I'd use it sparingly. It was working well against Jiggly Puff and, to an extent, Squirtle.

 

[Zekersaurus]

Lori?

lol Iori, capital I son! :3

Taj's Marth is scary, except against like Mango and Armada lol

and yeah the topic is slightly derailed.

so to get on topic, what are your opinions on the matchups you have played in PM with Mewtwo thusfar? I'm sure that you have opinions and I'm genuinely interested in reading them

Yeeeah... about that. That stuff I said was more theory than practice. My last match against a human player was a few weeks ago in v2.6b. I have mostly just been practicing on my own as Mewtwo.

I some more time into Mewtwo recently and... MY GOD, I was wrong. These buffs won't save him.I mean the stuff they gave him was awesome (increased weight and KO ability, a levitation move, better upsmash, Slight buffs on all of his specials) but he still has a lot more of the same weaknesses than I initially realized. He has those awkward hit boxes and a his smash attacks and sideB and DownB need to be reworked or removed rather than tweaked. And there's a few other things too. J-Just why? Why would they do this?

Despite this I'll still play him. As far as MUs go, Idk.

 

[NameChange]

Mewtwo's Mewtwo give him time

 

[Xethos]

Mewtwo by no means is an amazing character, even in pm. However the pmbr has does a fairly good job at making him viable for tournament play, and reducing the learning curve a little for newcomers. He is still an awkward character with his strange move set and floatiness, but that's what makes him fun.

That being said, I would like to say that mewtwo HAS improved significantly. The brawl aspects of pm seem to be helping him overall. But there are some of his aspects that allow him to be butchered by certain characters still, such as g&w, Roy, and squirtle, and maybe even tink. But let's stay positive. Anyone have good matchups for mewtwo?

 

[Vale]

So, I did get to play against a bunch of different people/characters today, but I forgot how much all of us suck. Based on what I played today, did you guys know that dtilt is good and upb can be used to attack in the air??? (/s).

What's our matchup with Ike like? I was able to use Shadow Ball fairly well and control space, but I know that the people I play against aren't using the full extent of his quickdraw shenanigans to get past my zoning.
Also played against Mario. While the cape is a threat, just restraining on firing them allowed me to catch them off guard and hit with a fully charged one at least once a game.

 

[Xethos]

So, I did get to play against a bunch of different people/characters today, but I forgot how much all of us suck. Based on what I played today, did you guys know that dtilt is good and upb can be used to attack in the air??? (/s).

What's our matchup with Ike like? I was able to use Shadow Ball fairly well and control space, but I know that the people I play against aren't using the full extent of his quickdraw shenanigans to get past my zoning.
Also played against Mario. While the cape is a threat, just restraining on firing them allowed me to catch them off guard and hit with a fully charged one at least once a game.

Dtilt is crazy good lol. Combos into a bunch of stuff if used right.
And my brother plays ike. He uses quickdraw as much as metroid. He is currently using wiimote and he does well in the competitive scen. (Cant wait to see how ggod he oes when his gc controller arrives this thursday X.X ) He goes par on par with my mewtwo, and Id say we are about the same level. The quickdraw does help the mu for ike though. It really depends how they use ikes tools.
Havent played against a mario yet. Need to check that.

 

[Xethos]

What do you guys think about diddy kong? I've actually been having the hardest time with him. I HATE it when he appears when I face a random lev 9 CPU. I barely beat him. Just his approach options with his aerial.

Btw, my style uses a lot of act out of up b. Am I the only one who feels like CPUs are now making reads on stuff like that?

 

[BigHairyFart]

Diddy Kong is a pain in the ass for pretty much every character. Squirtle, too.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

What do you guys think about diddy kong? I've actually been having the hardest time with him. I HATE it when he appears when I face a random lev 9 CPU. I barely beat him. Just his approach options with his aerial.

Btw, my style uses a lot of act out of up b. Am I the only one who feels like CPUs are now making reads on stuff like that?

The CPU's can read anything out of Up-B. As soon as you teleport the CPU most of the times will already know where you're headed, and if it's towards their general area sometimes you're going to get hit.

 

[Zekersaurus]

I feel like Mewtwo does better against fox this time around. He have more tools stop his recovery. Against his UpB, ffing a Nair can sometimes be a good option but Dairing is usually a better choice if you know you can get it off. He seems to combo him just as well and I think his Fthrow is kill move now. But Idk how it fairs against a good DI.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Life was surviving Fthrow to obscene damages once he figured out how to DI it. like 150%+ damages on FD as ZSS. till I went **** it and got an upthrow. he and I can test it later on, might've had something to do with stale moves.

to beat Mewtwo:M all Fox has to do is run away, laser and punish your attempts to get close. he can hit you out of the startup or cooldown of Teleport if he calls it. the MU didn't feel much different from Melee... to paraphrase Taj all Fox has to do is play it like a God tier scrub character. Lucky for us, most foxes like to try and make matches a combo video rather than playing "lame" like Life plays Fox.

theorycrafting here but with the hover the Falco matchup might be more managable. although without an amazing and priority heavy air game like Peach I don't know how much it'll actually help. maybe the new upair's hitboxes... because Falco can just dair everything else. gotta play the MU though

 

[StriderAaron360]

These match ups are seeming particularly grim for our hero. Guess nothing really changed from Melee

 

[StriderAaron360]

Hope this isn't a dumb question, but what's the best way to DI Captain Falcon's d-throw? I seriously would like to know because his d-throw into fair (knee) just owns this MU for free almost.