The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[Johnthegalactic]

Lock please.

As SamuraiPanda said, he is tired of shutting down these threads, so he created this thread as the official discussion(rant) thread.

As of now, like so many said before...

Let's use some PATIENCE!

 

[GofG]

The point is, discussion has stagnated to the point where basically nothing new is being said.

In addition, the very concept of banning a character this early in the metagame is absurd and should not even be discussed on a discussion forum of this calibur. The fact that this thread even exists is proof that Brawl has attracted a bunch of scrubs who need to lurk moar.

 

[Yojimbo]

The ironic thing is that MK is really forcing us to decide whether or not we're going to care about the metagame in brawl. To put a soft ban on MK may promote the metagames of all the other character interactions, but to at the same time it denies learning how to beat MK.

The fact remains that while MK may be well above the rest on his own level... he still is not ALL-Powerful and certainly a flat out ban would not be appropriate.

At the last two events I went to, players counterpicked my sonic(who I only use) with MK and I still ended up beating them. Regardless of whether or not you want to question the skill of these MK users, the fact remains that I've put lots of time into the specific metagame between my Sonic and various MK players. I've collaborated with other Sonic users and learned how to utilize Sonic's ground speed to run away from tornadoes and punish expected shuttle loops with shield grabs or short hops. Sonic naturally is hard to gimp which takes out another strength that MK has against him. A camping, spot-dodge > down Smash MK can easily be punished with Sonic by running right past and pivoting into a fsmash (you don't even have to pivot this). Short hops into bairs are also effective here when rolling away is begging to get hit or grabbed by MK. Sonic's spring gets him out of bad situations before MK can shuttle loop and usually MK finds himself running into a spring. I'm speaking specifically about Sonic, but each character has SOMETHING to use. Many feel Bowser can be a wise counterpick against MK. Instead of whining about banning MK we should instead force MK mains to further step up their game even more.

I feel that the true problem right now is that too many people have accepted MK is unbeatable with their current characters. Too many people switch directly to him instead of to other characters.

I've chosen the path of figuring out how my main can fight MK instead of play as MK. What path will you take?

Quoting to bump such an appropriate post. Props to you, my friend, good food for thought.

 

[Steeler]

I dont know if people will pay attention to this post but uh.
In pokemon some of the crowd is doing a sample test of banning garchomp (not a hard ban, it's simply a test).

If the metagame benefits from the lack of MK, we may not know, I think there should be a small period of time where Metaknight is banned just to see what the metagame is like without him, and then afterwards thoughts/facts and opinions can be collected as such.

Same should also be done with snake (although I think he's overrated to begin with) just for the sake of saying we tested him too.

People with decent tourney play during that time should speak and those who don't should be quiet (I'd be quiet).

the garchomp ban is what i was thinking about when i saw this thread. but honestly, that pokemon metagame has been extensively played and most find that garchomp is both very difficult to defend against and his removal means a variety of other things suddenly become viable.

the thing is that brawl's metagame is still in its infancy, i'm pretty sure fighting metagames take a lot longer to develop than stuff like pokemon, since there's a lot more variables and hidden stuff in fighting.

besides, mk's metagame doesn't seem all that deep at this point anyway. time will tell, but it's highly, highly unlikely that mk will ever be banned. there's a few characters out there that can consistently contend with and beat metaknights.

 

[Gindler]

Isn't beating MK the main focus of the metagame?

If he was gone we'd all be pretty much lost.

 

[TexanBull58]

im a bowser mainer and ill tell you MK is noooo problem for me, normally i just sidestep is lunge attacks and use my fire to throw MK off guard, plus MK is sooo light i can knock him off fairly easy, MK should not be banned, in fact i do very well against him in tournament and online play

 

[GofG]

TexanBull58, what was the last tournament you went to?

 

[eyestrain92]

That's the same guy who ran into the Bowser forums saying that Bowser was top tier.

Regardless, I'm all for a soft-ban for the fact HE DOES help eliminate character variety. Do not you see multiple MK's at every tourney you go to? Is that not elimination of variety? That's the same reason Old Sagat was soft-banned, he was too good and that made him too appealing, resulting in him taking up space of other characters potential brought to godlike levels upon their true realization at capable hands, could have sat.

You say that it doesn't promote learning and self-development? Well, try beating Metaknight with every character who's community popularly agrees that there's a practical null chance of success if you're a fragment behind your opponent and skill, not because there's a great difference in skill, but simply the superiority of the other character.

Sonic, I can see beating MK. Sonic has great run speed, but not every character has the capability to get away from Metaknight quick enough and defend fast enough. The only way to win this matchup is to be far ahead of your opponent in terms of capability, which is basically go big or go home, which is generally fun or not fun, win or lose utterly, no spectrum, simply black and white. It doesn't promote growth in the MK player so much as it does the other player, which is ridiculous. It simply makes it too easy for one to succeed in comparison to other players. It takes difficulty from the MK player and places it upon his opponent, which is a stab in the loins of fairness, and the spirit of competition.

 

[Falconv1.0]

That's the same guy who ran into the Bowser forums saying that Bowser was top tier.

Regardless, I'm all for a soft-ban for the fact HE DOES help eliminate character variety. Do not you see multiple MK's at every tourney you go to? Is that not elimination of variety? That's the same reason Old Sagat was soft-banned, he was too good and that made him too appealing, resulting in him taking up space of other characters potential brought to godlike levels upon their true realization at capable hands, could have sat.

Why not ban the top Melee characters, since they totally shut down lower characters?

And I cant think of a single character that would magically be viable if MK didn't exist. Last time I checked, MK has a lot of 6-4 match ups, 6-4 does not destroy a character, and it does not take him out of the competitive scene. Also, if you're seriously in the '*insert character here* is good, u jsut dun know it cuz they hav a steep lernin curve" camp, then go take a stand behind the rest of the other ****ing scrubs yelling that.


Name one single ****ing character that magically becomes viable in tourneys without MK, seriously, do it, if you really think one ****ing characters affects diversity that much. Sheik in Melee killed the diversity worse than MK, and she wasn't banned, wanna know why? Because most characters she pwned sucked anyways.


Your move.

 

[Brinzy]

OOOH I KNOW LUIGI! ya duuude yaaa.

 

[Vulcan55]

Banning MK will not nagically make other characters better and more viable against the rest of the upper tiers.
If they sucked before, they will still suck afterwards.
Getting rid of one bad matchup won't change a lot, if anything.

 

[MarKO X]

I was gonna say Ganondorf.

 

[eyestrain92]

Summarizing above three posts save MarKO X:

Pretend-Elitist used Flamethrower!

It's not very effective...

You say I'm just another scrub who yells how characters would be better used? My friend, look at those who play Bowser. Just look at some of the players the Bowser community bred. Don't even start me up.

You say these characters suck? I laugh. I laugh hard. I laugh at your inability to formulate a sentence without cursing, Falcon. Every character in this game has at least one exploitable strength. The discussion on CF should've been a heads-up to people like yourself. It's a long and potentially masochistic road, but only because of ignorance like this and the overplayed characters such as MK himself.

Keep going. It's amusing.

 

[Brinzy]

I wasn't flaming your idea at all. I was just joking around...

 

[Vulcan55]

Yet another scrub misusing the word elitist, who can't take a counter-point without yelling "FLAME" at the poster.

 

[gallax]

akuma was way too good for the game. every finals game always consisted of akuma and what not. he changeed the game to the point where it was impossible to win if you didnt pick akuma.

 

[eyestrain92]

Vulcan, where do you get off calling me a scrub? Care to do something other than fling that around at people you don't agree with? Care to offer some indisputable proof you're not what you're playing others off to be?

Raphael, I actually didn't mean you >_>

 

[Vulcan55]

Vulcan, where do you get off calling me a scrub?

I'm all for a soft-ban

This.
Explained:

Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary [...] Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.

Banning MK will never happen. Doing so on your own (not in any tournament) is fine, but that is limiting yourself to a made-up set of rules. Thus is a definition of a scrub.

Metaknight is not "cheap", Metaknight is not "broken", and the only reason banning him would increase character diversity is because it would force players to switch mains.
This will not make any characters any better or worse.

Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

Like I said earlier, Banning MK will not make the game magically balanced and diverse.
Snakes, G-dubs and D3s will be dominating.
Then what? Ban them because there still isn't enough diversity?

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point.

Why doesn't someone show us really how broken MK is, huh?

If someone had made these claims in the game’s infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing.

Seriously. This game's been out for 6 months.

The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite subtle and difficult to discover.

Again. This game's been out for 6 months.

Care to offer some indisputable proof you're not what you're playing others off to be?

I could care less about what other people think of me, so really, I don't know.
Do tell. What am I playing others off to be?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic, I can see beating MK. Sonic has great run speed, but not every character has the capability to get away from Metaknight quick enough and defend fast enough.

Metaknight is one of Sonic's worst matchups buddy.

 

[-Linko-]

This.
Explained:


Banning MK will never happen. Doing so on your own (not in any tournament) is fine, but that is limiting yourself to a made-up set of rules. Thus is a definition of a scrub.

Metaknight is not "cheap", Metaknight is not "broken", and the only reason banning him would increase character diversity is because it would force players to switch mains.
This will not make any characters any better or worse.


Like I said earlier, Banning MK will not make the game magically balanced and diverse.
Snakes, G-dubs and D3s will be dominating.
Then what? Ban them because there still isn't enough diversity?


Why doesn't someone show us really how broken MK is, huh?


Seriously. This game's been out for 6 months.


Again. This game's been out for 6 months.


I could care less about what other people think of me, so really, I don't know.
Do tell. What am I playing others off to be?

You know that David Sirlin actually thinks that Smash Bros. should be played competitively with items, don't you?

 

[Vro]

In what way should that influence us? Sirlin is still one of the best knowledgeable sources on the internet, concerning competitive gaming.

 

[da K.I.D.]

people think that hes automatically right about every thing and the point brought up about his thoughts on items means that people shouldnt quote him as an auto-I-win button in these types of discussions, because he obviously has the ability to be wrong if he thinks smash should be played with items

 

[-Linko-]

people think that hes automatically right about every thing and the point brought up about his thoughts on items means that people shouldnt quote him as an auto-I-win button in these types of discussions, because he obviously has the ability to be wrong if he thinks smash should be played with items

That is exactly what I meant.

 

[Vulcan55]

Just because he thinks Smash should be played competitively with items, does not make him wrong, that means he has a different opinion.
He may be in the minority, but he isn't wrong, per-se.
Plus, all of his other points apply to any game that can be played at a competitive level, items or not.
It doesn't just apply to video games, either.

 

[GofG]

The only reason Sirlin thinks that items should be on is because he does not play competitive smash, and as such he sees them as something that we're "banning", when in fact we are simply turning something off in the options that allows for a less random game.

 

[MasterToshima]

YES! Im tired of my weegeee getting *****!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

YES! Im tired of my weegeee getting *****!

1. Practice
2. Get a lot better
3. ???
4. Profit

 

[Yuna]

Regardless, I'm all for a soft-ban for the fact HE DOES help eliminate character variety. Do not you see multiple MK's at every tourney you go to? Is that not elimination of variety? That's the same reason Old Sagat was soft-banned, he was too good and that made him too appealing, resulting in him taking up space of other characters potential brought to godlike levels upon their true realization at capable hands, could have sat.

The criteria is not that he limits (yes, he only limits character viability) character viability, it has to be that he eliminates character viability.

Not that people are just choosing to play as him but that he's just so good you'd have to play him to stand a chance. We can't ban a character for being popular (that would be insane). He has to be "too good".

You say that it doesn't promote learning and self-development? Well, try beating Metaknight with every character who's community popularly agrees that there's a practical null chance of success if you're a fragment behind your opponent and skill, not because there's a great difference in skill, but simply the superiority of the other character.

He doesn't 7-3 or 6-4 everyone. That's just a stupid myth. Also, even if he does that, it's not grounds enough for a ban. How many characters did the Top Tiers and High Tiers of Melee not 7-3? Can you say NTSC Sheik's Dthrow?

Sonic, I can see beating MK. Sonic has great run speed, but not every character has the capability to get away from Metaknight quick enough and defend fast enough.

Since when is this imperative for beating Meta-Night? What are you talking about, anyway? Hit and run? Is this your magical strategy of beating Meta?

Also, ha on your "theory" about the Sonic vs. Meta-Knight matchup. Have you played this game? I mean, you showcase an alarming lack of insight into Competitive Brawl.

The only way to win this matchup is to be far ahead of your opponent in terms of capability, which is basically go big or go home, which is generally fun or not fun, win or lose utterly, no spectrum, simply black and white. It doesn't promote growth in the MK player so much as it does the other player, which is ridiculous. It simply makes it too easy for one to succeed in comparison to other players.

Or pick a character against which he's got a 5-5 or 5-4 matchup. There are a few.

It takes difficulty from the MK player and places it upon his opponent, which is a stab in the loins of fairness, and the spirit of competition.

There will always be characters with plenty of good matchups where they have to work less hard. You want complete "fairness" and balance, play Starcraft.

BS

<snip>

You say these characters suck? I laugh. I laugh hard. I laugh at your inability to formulate a sentence without cursing, Falcon. Every character in this game has at least one exploitable strength. The discussion on CF should've been a heads-up to people like yourself. It's a long and potentially masochistic road, but only because of ignorance like this and the overplayed characters such as MK himself.

Yay! This character has at least one "exploitable strength". Excuse me while I destroy them with a character which has 50. Some characters suck. If you cannot accept this, then you're unqualified to be a part of this discussion.

people think that hes automatically right about every thing and the point brought up about his thoughts on items means that people shouldnt quote him as an auto-I-win button in these types of discussions, because he obviously has the ability to be wrong if he thinks smash should be played with items

I don't think he's ever claimed to be an expert on Competitive Smash. In fact, he doesn't really play Smash Competitively. I also don't think he's ever said "The only correct way to play Smash is with items on!". It's just his personal preference.

Also, being wrong on one thing does not mean everything he's ever said is automatically bullcrap.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You know that David Sirlin actually thinks that Smash Bros. should be played competitively with items, don't you?

Your point exactly?

Competitive smash wise the items cannot be used because they are uncontrolled random.
An uncontrollable random is different from a controlled random/

A controlled random would be G&W's Judgement. You can control it een if you cannot get the outcome you want.

an uncontrolled random would be the items.
Yeah you can control what item you get (gooey bombs) but you cannot dictate where they will appear or when.


Sirlin is a very knowledgeable person on competitive play but in this aspect, hhe is not truly correct. Not truly wrong either but there is a stronger argument for banning items than there are to keep them.

 

[Grunt]

If we actually had tourney results that showed ridiculous inconsistency with items on, I'm sure Sirlin wouldn't mind them being off.

 

[GofG]

If we actually had tourney results that showed ridiculous inconsistency with items on, I'm sure Sirlin wouldn't mind them being off.

A fourteen year old boy who had never entered a tournament before beat Ken at Evolution 2008, the largest fighting game tournament in the world.

 

[Grunt]

A fourteen year old boy who had never entered a tournament before beat Ken at Evolution 2008, the largest fighting game tournament in the world.

Exactly.
...Come 2k9 some 10 yr old will beat both Ken and CPU with sonic. XD

 

[Yuna]

A fourteen year old boy who had never entered a tournament before beat Ken at Evolution 2008, the largest fighting game tournament in the world.

The Funny Little Dudes (tm) at EVO and SRK apparently loved it.

They loved "the upsets" and the "incalculability" of the Brawl finals (and matches leading up to them). Yes, because randomness and the trivialization of skill is so good for Competitive gaming.

They made an evaluation thread at SRK for it. I stopped reading after the umpteenth "I loved it!"-post.

 

[iRjOn]

I say MK is broken but hes beatable...wait a min. I main Snake u guys arent gonna listen to me... nvm

 

[da K.I.D.]

I don't think he's ever claimed to be an expert on Competitive Smash. In fact, he doesn't really play Smash Competitively. I also don't think he's ever said "The only correct way to play Smash is with items on!". It's just his personal preference.

Also, being wrong on one thing does not mean everything he's ever said is automatically bullcrap.

but the fact that he is wrong on this one thing also means that people shouldnt be using what he says as an auto i win button in these types of discussion.

i didnt say that everything he says is wrong, in typical "Yuna" fashion, you are putting words in my mouth. What im saying is that people shouldnt take the things that he says as an end all be all for their points in these discussions

 

[Falconv1.0]

Summarizing above three posts save MarKO X:

Pretend-Elitist used Flamethrower!

It's not very effective...

You say I'm just another scrub who yells how characters would be better used? My friend, look at those who play Bowser. Just look at some of the players the Bowser community bred. Don't even start me up.

You say these characters suck? I laugh. I laugh hard. I laugh at your inability to formulate a sentence without cursing, Falcon. Every character in this game has at least one exploitable strength. The discussion on CF should've been a heads-up to people like yourself. It's a long and potentially masochistic road, but only because of ignorance like this and the overplayed characters such as MK himself.

Keep going. It's amusing.

Yes, without MK, Bowser's popularity will ****ing skyrocket! Because obviously the MK players wont go for the next best chara-oh wait ****, yes they will, and his name wont be Boozer.

MK's that win tourneys play to win, thus they play the best character. If MK was banned, they would switch over to someone else near the top, not the underused characters that are projected to go mid tier.


And Yuna just restated what I've been saying, the top melee characters destroyed the diversity in Melee, and they had **** like 7-3 or 8-2 match ups, so you're inferring that you're a Brawl scrub now. Because pretty much all people who want MK out for more diversity dont ever look back and Melee and realize top character dominance was WORSE. But you're join date says otherwise, so I'm quite ****ing confused.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The only reason Sirlin thinks that items should be on is because he does not play competitive smash, and as such he sees them as something that we're "banning", when in fact we are simply turning something off in the options that allows for a less random game.

technically, we are banning them, because we use the terms "items" and "banned" together all the time. its just like in MvC2 they banned handicaps. its just some thing that deosnt foster competitive gameplay, so it gets banned. eventually the same thing will happen with MK as well

Exactly.
...Come 2k9 some 10 yr old will beat both Ken and CPU with sonic. XD

im not gonna lie, i would really enjoy seeing sonic win a high profile tourney with sonic, even if it is evo

 

[eyestrain92]

Yuna, it's kind of obvious I've played. Once more, you're just too self-absorbed to admit that someone other than yourself may have a valuable point and you result to insult them. I'm seeing a pattern here, it's like you're unable to properly argue without getting angry and flying off the handle, which I'm not sure qualifies you as a reasonable person.

Give me one response where you don't do as I've stated and maybe then, you'll be taken seriously by myself.

 

[OrlanduEX]

im not gonna lie, this post inspired me, im going to work on this match right now actually.
at this point in time, the meta game hasnt grown enough to warrent his ban, we all know that. but i still believe that it will happen. however, i plan to work on stalling that process for as long as i possibly can, by beating as many MKs as possible

I'm glad you've seen the light. Also, amazing f***ing sig. No seriously.

Ok. So whats the reason that Akuma is banned for??

LOL. Let's see. Broke a$$ fireball that traps you in the corner and ***** you with chip damage if you block or just ***** you if you don't.

Easy as hell low short-hurricane kick-shoryu combo that ***** half your health then dizzies you so he can **** the rest.

And that's not the half.

 

[Falconv1.0]

MK isn't too good, thus he will never be banned.