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Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

Shaya

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Probably a stupid question, but lately I've been toying with the idea of a dash>shorthop>Dair approach against small fighters like kirby/jigglypuff? It seems to catch people off guard from time to time. So yeah, is it a reasonable idea or is it too risky?
I thought I had replied to this ~_~
Essentially, as long as it catches people off guard it is good.
But it's large amount of lag makes it a free, potentially HARD, punish for just about everyone.
Like, Jigglypuff can feasibly jump rest punish down air under almost any circumstance if she shields it.

However, what if you use it as a punish?
In this case it's mildly applicable - I use short hop dair on Cloud for example because of it's sheer size and high damage (can KO at like 110%, lol); the end lag for that sheer amount of damage / potential ko power is worth it despite that being also very unsafe if the opponent calls it out.
The damage reward for hitting it, and the hitbox/animation for Marth's down air is good. But I would say it isn't something you gamble with or rely on.

I don't want to overwrite the question stated before this, so please take a look at the previous post as well.

My question is how Marths often find themselves to be edge-guarded. I play Wario and I'm facing the dilemma as to whether I should go off stage and try to f-air you before you're in range to up-b, or should I just play it safe and maybe try to toss a bike from stage. Bike definitely works, but for Marth, because your dolphin slash's vertical recovery is insane, it doesn't really matter, and even if the bike bounces on marth he can still recover.

Also, is Marth's nair his safest tool in neutral? From the frame data it would seem like it since it has basically no lag and can be spaced. As Wario, I don't think I can punish it.
Marth's recovery is pretty vulnerable to trades and it's awkward ledge snapping.
Wario is unfortunately low ranged in this situation, but Waft for example can be an easy to time trade on Marth's recovery and KO very early.
Back air's animation, as it comes from above to below, can also be feasible to get rewarding trades with Marth's recovery.

Try to pay attention to when Marth's use their jump too, many would have very very bad habits and this can be capitalized on.

You can also attempt to go low-ish and trade bite with it and send him into the depths.

Down Tilt would probably be our safest tool in neutral.
Neutral air is only safe if we land with it, and our minimum air time is 28 frames, even if nair can cover 15 frames of this total, there is the fairly large gap between hits as well.
 
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Ssbm_Jag

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The idea that I attack marth during his Up-b doesn't really seem plausible to me. Reason is, is that Marth has so much time and space in which he can variably use dolphin slash. The whole animation looks like 10 frames long max, which make it unreactable to. He can fall to the depths and use it or double jump and immediately use it. He can try to magnet grab the ledge or ride the inside of the stage, depending on the stage. Jumping out and wafting on an unreactable move is not a good strategy. The problem with B-air is that if I miss, the Iasa on the move is so bad to where Marth gets to edge-guard wario after grabbing ledge. From my experience, Mario and Marth are the best at edge-guarding wario in this game, so it's not worth the risk.

The Bite trade is easy to land, but keep in mind chomp suicides either result in both getting KO'd or just Wario since Wario's spit out is very laggy. That being said, Wario can get people if they miss the tech on the spitout. Chomp's hold on an opponent is entirely dependent on if the opponent mashes out, if they do, Wario is screwed. D-air and n-air can trade with Marth's dolphin slash, and from testing, it usually puts marth at an advantage as dolphin slash seemed to send wario into stage on a hard to tech situation. Bike toss and hitting Marth deep off stage seem to be the best strategy that doesn't require wasting waft or putting Wario at risk. Thanks for the help. I will definitely pay attention to marths jumps when he's off stage.
 
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Vipermoon

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You mentioned Wario punishing. Keep in mind he has a frame 4 dash attack so he can punish a lot of things Marth does on shield (but not a spaced landing Nair unless the Marth doesn't shield)
 
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Shaya

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Probably nearly all the time!
If people DI straight up after being thrown I tend to go for it to tack things on.

Marth's down throw is weight based [unfortunately]
but in general one should assume that you have 41 frames of stun to work with before an opponent can air dodge (a long lasting cap of 40 frames of hit stun received before one can air dodge + 1 frame start up on most air dodges).

Marth's base down throw is -26; releases on 16 and the duration is 42 frames.

So he has 15 frames lee way to get follow ups from down throw; and dolphin slash hits until frame 11.

On light characters I'm assuming this window is slightly bigger.
But in general a 'mid air' dolphin slash (4 frame jump squat, hitbox 5-11 = ~15) should just work.
But if you need to jump and wait a bit to then dolphin slash, it is definitely air dodgeable if you're needing to hit at the apex of the move.
 
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SirLink

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I almost never follow up my d-throws with Dolphin Slash and every time I see a match where someone does it, I'm once again reminded that it even exists. I don't know why it's not found a place in my general gameplay, maybe it's because I feel extremely vulnerable doing it due to the too low BKB of late Dolphin Slash. It's a mental thing, I guess. I get a grab and follow it up but feel like I'm at a disadvantage instead of the opposite afterwards. Even with fast-falling, I've gotten punished for it before at mid-percents, so I prefer to just cover their landing options instead.
 
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Vipermoon

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I probably find myself not doing it because I'm trying to throw my opponent off-stage.
 

Sonnance

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Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I figured better here than to start a whole new thread, but does anyone know where I can find gifs of Marth's moveset? It's surprisingly hard to find any for Smash 4. I was hoping to find a gif of fair, specifically. HD or HQ if possible.
 

Vipermoon

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Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I figured better here than to start a whole new thread, but does anyone know where I can find gifs of Marth's moveset? It's surprisingly hard to find any for Smash 4. I was hoping to find a gif of fair, specifically. HD or HQ if possible.
I have all of Melee Marth's frame by frame images downloaded from HERE (but I guess the link doesn't work anymore?) which is the resource used for this PROJECT which is where THIS came from.

Melee's stuff is mostly the same but Smash 4? We have LUCINA's which is the exact same as Marth. However, because this one was completed so early in the PROJECT, it doesn't use the better, pausable GIFs like THIS. Not HD though because of 3DS character models but it's fine.
 

Sonnance

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I have all of Melee Marth's frame by frame images downloaded from HERE (but I guess the link doesn't work anymore?) which is the resource used for this PROJECT which is where THIS came from.

Melee's stuff is mostly the same but Smash 4? We have LUCINA's which is the exact same as Marth. However, because this one was completed so early in the PROJECT, it doesn't use the better, pausable GIFs like THIS. Not HD though because of 3DS character models but it's fine.
Oh, I was actually hoping for just gifs of the animations, sans hitboxes. But having all the hitbox gifs compiled together is incredibly helpful, so thanks for showing me this!
 

nedskii-

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So this has been happening to me lately and especially yesterday:

Was doing friendlies with my friend who plays ness and i was playing marth. I had him off stage recovering so i did a run off counter. The first two times it went off instantly, countering the split second after pressing down b. Then the third time, i was in full counter(it was onvious and it did not run out) he hit me and I died. It even made the counter noise

Fast forward an hour i was playing my friend's Roy and he countered me off stage when i went to Fair him and it activated but he died. Any explanations?
 

Locuan

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I had him off stage recovering so i did a run off counter. The first two times it went off instantly, countering the split second after pressing down b. Then the third time, i was in full counter(it was onvious and it did not run out) he hit me and I died.
Marth's Counter, the periods were he can counter an attack, are from frame 6-27 with him being invincible at frame 5. This means, that if an attack hits Marth in between this range he will be able counter it. The total frames for the move from start to finish is 59. This means that apart from that window (6-27) an attack that connects against Marth outside of that range is not countered.

Against Ness in his recovery there is a particular angle and distance that, if you connect with counter, he will fly past you. You need to be mindful about this. You want Ness to be in front and a bit below (or below) you in most situations for counter to be optimal.

As for Roy, I can't help much there as your description is a bit vague.
 
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Vipermoon

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Locuan Locuan Marth's counter activates from 5-27 (5-29 in other games) and as far as I know there is no intangibility like some other counters may have ( KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer confirm no intangibility?). Total frames is actually 59.

So this has been happening to me lately and especially yesterday:

Was doing friendlies with my friend who plays ness and i was playing marth. I had him off stage recovering so i did a run off counter. The first two times it went off instantly, countering the split second after pressing down b. Then the third time, i was in full counter(it was onvious and it did not run out) he hit me and I died. It even made the counter noise

Fast forward an hour i was playing my friend's Roy and he countered me off stage when i went to Fair him and it activated but he died. Any explanations?
Yes, this is an unfortunate issue that I have ran into countless times. It has existed since Melee. Marth has an Achilles heel; literally. Check it out, scroll down to Counter. See the yellow area (his hurtbox) that isn't covered by the bubble?

You're saying you witnessed the same thing happen to Roy? Melee Roy is a lot smaller than Marth and Smash 4 Roy so the counter bubble covers all of the yellow areas. With Smash 4 Roy's size I could see Roy having the same issue. Lucina probably isn't small enough either. This might have been for some reason intentional but there's no way to know for sure.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Locuan Locuan Marth's counter activates from 5-27 (5-29 in other games) and as far as I know there is no intangibility like some other counters may have ( KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer confirm no intangibility?). Total frames is actually 59.



Yes, this is an unfortunate issue that I have ran into countless times. It has existed since Melee. Marth has an Achilles heel; literally. Check it out, scroll down to Counter. See the yellow area (his hurtbox) that isn't covered by the bubble?

You're saying you witnessed the same thing happen to Roy? Melee Roy is a lot smaller than Marth and Smash 4 Roy so the counter bubble covers all of the yellow areas. With Smash 4 Roy's size I could see Roy having the same issue. Lucina probably isn't small enough either. This might have been for some reason intentional but there's no way to know for sure.
Actually it is frame 6, but it's effectively frame 5 because of full body intangibility.
 

Locuan

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Locuan Locuan Marth's counter activates from 5-27 (5-29 in other games) and as far as I know there is no intangibility like some other counters may have ( KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer confirm no intangibility?). Total frames is actually 59.
I had cross checked both @A_Kae's frame data thread, and Kurogane's before posting. Both indicated the data I mentioned above. And oops, yes, I made a mistake on the total frames (brain please).
 
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KuroganeHammer

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Ye I only learnt of the intangibility recently

It's basically frame 5 tho, if you ever experienced countering a move and marth simply ignoring it and not being hurt, it means you countered on frame 5 lol
 

Vipermoon

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I had cross checked both @A_Kae's frame data thread, and Kurogane's before posting. Both indicated the data I mentioned above. And oops, yes, I made a mistake on the total frames (brain please).
Looks like it was updated. It used to say 5-27 though and without the intangibility. Apparently it's intangible on frame 6 so there's another frame you can't get grabbed I guess.

Edit:
Ye I only learnt of the intangibility recently

It's basically frame 5 tho, if you ever experienced countering a move and marth simply ignoring it and not being hurt, it means you countered on frame 5 lol
It makes sense that your testing showed frame 5. The opponent's frame 5 move you tested it with got its hitbox ignored on the 5th frame then went ahead and countered on the 6th.
 
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jmanup85

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Ye I only learnt of the intangibility recently

It's basically frame 5 tho, if you ever experienced countering a move and marth simply ignoring it and not being hurt, it means you countered on frame 5 lol
Cool about the intangibility. But now do we call you Bike? Ikeser?
 

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Locuan Locuan Marth's counter activates from 5-27 (5-29 in other games) and as far as I know there is no intangibility like some other counters may have ( KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer confirm no intangibility?). Total frames is actually 59.



Yes, this is an unfortunate issue that I have ran into countless times. It has existed since Melee. Marth has an Achilles heel; literally. Check it out, scroll down to Counter. See the yellow area (his hurtbox) that isn't covered by the bubble?

You're saying you witnessed the same thing happen to Roy? Melee Roy is a lot smaller than Marth and Smash 4 Roy so the counter bubble covers all of the yellow areas. With Smash 4 Roy's size I could see Roy having the same issue. Lucina probably isn't small enough either. This might have been for some reason intentional but there's no way to know for sure.
Oh wow I see that...

 

Adajone

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New Ken Combo? While playing some Marth dittos at around 100-125% I did the first hit of dancing blade in the air off stage around the opposing Marth's feet as they fell. I then jumped into a dair to take the stock with a spike. I have experimented around in training mode and have pulled it off several more times at percents ranging from ~90-180%. I have found the most important part of pulling this off is that you must be a little beneath the opponent (again, aiming for Marth's feet) in order for the dancing blade to pop the opponent to the proper hight to jump and spike. This is moderately difficult and will take one or two tries to pull off. I have yet to try this against other characters.
 
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Vipermoon

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A Adajone I actually meant to reply to your first message, sorry.

It wouldn't true combo but it definitely is useful if you get the opportunity. But how often will someone recovery high like that AND not air dodge the DB1? They won't. And if you try to bait the air dodge, you might as well Fair/Bair/Dair them without the DB1.

You also have to consider knockback. The tipper DB1 deals more knockback (because of damage) and has a purely vertical launch angle while the sourspot is more diagonal. The extra damage could be the difference between getting tumble knockback.
 
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nedskii-

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Is there some sort of trick or timing to performing Marth's full dancing blade every time? My favorite one to do is the full side one to set up an edge guard and what not but it flubs so much by not finishing and really hampers my matches. My up dancing blade and down dancing blade i think i pull off a bit more consistant. Please help
 

Vipermoon

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does grab release from pummel to dolphin slash work?
DS has low range so it would only work on a few characters. I'm not certain on what determines grab release "launch" distance but Luigi for example will be released only a very short distance away.
 

Shaya

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It kinda is and isn't a thing.
You only have enough time for a full hop rising aerial. Anything that's above the height you can gain there isn't real. DI away from nearly any character makes it not real extremely early.
As the throw has high base knockback, any form of rage messes it up completely too.

It's a feel thing, it's not "real" enough for there to be %s worth cataloging.
 

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So for general spacing, any tips for when to use nair or fair?

I prefer fair since it's easier to space with for me, but at low percentages, I get punished on hit with fair (which is super annoying) and I keep staling it which bites me in the rear at later percents. So I'm guessing nair is probably better to space at lower percents, and then at higher percents, I should use fair?
 

Shaya

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What are Marths' best stages? and in what situations or matchups are they favorable in?
Empirically (so not necessarily smash4 specific)
Final Destination is great if Marth is able to emphasise his juggling ability and keeps his opponents in the air indefinitely - as the lack of platforms give less mix up options to the opponent

Battlefield [kinda Dreamland] used to be a lot better in other games, but the similar spiel of his ability to cover and trap people on platforms apply. He still has auto tipper tilts on those platforms, still can dolphin slash to the top platform and land immediately, etc.

Lylat is the stage that emphasises free tipper spacing, slants that he can abuse with his horizontal poke tools or his arcs/landing.

So he has to consider his opponent's preferences. Overall you may find Lylat the best bet because people don't play/like the stage, it doesn't get in the way of Marth recovering (although the tilting of the stage can allow people to edge guard you on the way to the stage sometimes, but experience in those situations is key) and he traps/combos people on those platforms very very well.

So for general spacing, any tips for when to use nair or fair?

I prefer fair since it's easier to space with for me, but at low percentages, I get punished on hit with fair (which is super annoying) and I keep staling it which bites me in the rear at later percents. So I'm guessing nair is probably better to space at lower percents, and then at higher percents, I should use fair?
Tipper fair should be safe on hit - remember to learn to time a fast fall in your short hop so you aren't in the air unnecessarily for an extra 5 frames. But in general he is optimized for falling aerials and in these cases his moves should be safe on hit always, but not necessarily guarantee follow ups.

Personally I just think that nair is good for when I have 'prep time' and fair is good as an instant reaction. So if I'm thinking/expecting a dodge, or trying to cover a landing, nair is better, but if I just power shielded something then a rising fair is a lot better.
 

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Empirically (so not necessarily smash4 specific)
Final Destination is great if Marth is able to emphasise his juggling ability and keeps his opponents in the air indefinitely - as the lack of platforms give less mix up options to the opponent

Battlefield [kinda Dreamland] used to be a lot better in other games, but the similar spiel of his ability to cover and trap people on platforms apply. He still has auto tipper tilts on those platforms, still can dolphin slash to the top platform and land immediately, etc.

Lylat is the stage that emphasises free tipper spacing, slants that he can abuse with his horizontal poke tools or his arcs/landing.

So he has to consider his opponent's preferences. Overall you may find Lylat the best bet because people don't play/like the stage, it doesn't get in the way of Marth recovering (although the tilting of the stage can allow people to edge guard you on the way to the stage sometimes, but experience in those situations is key) and he traps/combos people on those platforms very very well.



Tipper fair should be safe on hit - remember to learn to time a fast fall in your short hop so you aren't in the air unnecessarily for an extra 5 frames. But in general he is optimized for falling aerials and in these cases his moves should be safe on hit always, but not necessarily guarantee follow ups.

Personally I just think that nair is good for when I have 'prep time' and fair is good as an instant reaction. So if I'm thinking/expecting a dodge, or trying to cover a landing, nair is better, but if I just power shielded something then a rising fair is a lot better.
What about sourspot fair?

This isn't spacing related, but when I do Jab 1 to Fair (I'm pretty sure I'm hitting with sourspot), the opponent pretty much lands on the ground normally and punishes me. I don't fast fall it though, but if I did, would it be safe?
 

Shaya

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Sour fair is hard to be safe on hit with at early percent, and that's been like that in every game thus far.
At early percent it's just... vital you go for grabs/jabs/tilts/dancing blade [except on ffers who can shield it early %] or you ensure the moves you're hitting with are tippers :p

And if you do hit someone at early percent and know it doesn't guarantee you a free follow up, then don't attack. If they're going to immediate attack you can likely shield that and then continue the love. The ball is still in your court.
 
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Green Zelda

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Heya! What's the best method of learning how to consistently land tippers with marth? Thanks!
 

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Heya! What's the best method of learning how to consistently land tippers with marth? Thanks!
Practice.

Practice.




AAAANNNDDDD Practice.

Hypothetically it should be offline and against opponents who can pressure and punish but won't invalidate all spacing attempts. Clearly, you'll want to toy around a bit to know what is/isn't a tipper before hand so you'll know if you're succeeding. Actually hitting tippers in a match is just lots of practice and control of Marth.

I can't really say what the "best" method is because that's going to depend heavily on your personal situation. Is there a group of people you can play with regularly? Do you have way to much money to throw away at tourneys? Do you have a car and can travel?
 
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Green Zelda

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Practice.

Practice.




AAAANNNDDDD Practice.

Hypothetically it should be offline and against opponents who can pressure and punish but won't invalidate all spacing attempts. Clearly, you'll want to toy around a bit to know what is/isn't a tipper before hand so you'll know if you're succeeding. Actually hitting tippers in a match is just lots of practice and control of Marth.

I can't really say what the "best" method is because that's going to depend heavily on your personal situation. Is there a group of people you can play with regularly? Do you have way to much money to throw away at tourneys? Do you have a car and can travel?
I can't go to tournaments (yet) or see my friends in person much (school), but two of them are my "sparring partners", and we usually do friendlies at least once a week!
 
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Tips for fighting DK? My edgeguarding and juggling is fine against him, but it's on the ground where I struggle.

And also, how do I deal with Mega Man's that like to surround themselves with Leaf Shield to approach and stuff?
 
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