Guide The Mario Match-Up Discussion Thread

[Blanky]

i agree with 60/40 in peaches favor. maybe 65/35. spacing -> f smash is good, and comboing with u-air is pretty good on her too. it just sucks how well she can edgeguard, how much better she is at killing, and (unfortunately for me) her d-smash ***** CCs. i like to CC -> d-smash people! blasphemy.

not to mention we dont really have a good way of sending her upwards. just our u-smash! so it's hard as hell to kill her seeing as she can di and float back onto the stage.

 

[j3ly]

haha, lord thats called edge cancelling - but you cant edge-cancel special attacks that have the same animation in the air, as they do on the ground. see pikachus downB for example, vs falco's laser.

platform cancelling is when you are on a platform, fall through and perform an aerial so fast that it cancels on the platform you wanted to fall through. if you connect the move, you are far more likely to successfully platform cancel

i'd put ganon at maybe 40-60. its not ****, but its hard. i'd give doc a fair 50-50 on this matchup - his bair and pills are terrible for ganon

 

[A2ZOMG]

not to mention we dont really have a good way of sending her upwards. just our u-smash! so it's hard as hell to kill her seeing as she can di and float back onto the stage.

Running up, crouch dash canceling, and Up-smashing is risky, but has a pretty darn good chance of getting you that vertical KO you need at around say...120ish.

 

[j3ly]

a superior tactic is running up and shielding, then usmashing oos if u can

europe + condemned_soul ftw

 

[condemned_soul]

60/40 for both MUs
i do that as well j3ly

 

[Lordydennek]

I have to say 65 35. simply bcuz at all times during the match peach has way more options than we do. she can outcamp, outspace and outlive mario.
65 35

ganon 60 40 ill post that now

at jely- i always called that plat cancelling... o well

 

[M@1funk$hun]

aight I'll edit first post
hey lordy, can you start compiling some of the stuff we've said about matchups in the other matchup thread?
like along with the number give a little explanation about what to watch out for, what works, etc.

 

[n0ne]

i give mario v peach 70/30 peachs favor, simply because mario cannot really ko her on the bigger stages, cannot combo her because her nair comes out too fast, her CCing ***** him, and his cape doesnt really have much use against her. maybe for mindgames on her. all mario has is his speed, his Dsmash if u see a CCing peach, and for spacing.. his jab cambo spam is also good for peachs who like to grab.

Mario v Ganon 60/40. Pretty much the same. its hard to ko Dorf and those matchups are not boring u guys, they are actually pretty intense at high level play.

 

[Blanky]

i hate sheik. sheik is stupid.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

i hate sheik. sheik is stupid.

aight so we're done with that matchup, 50-50 right?

 

[condemned_soul]

well guys you can just call em condemned or soul lol. you dont have to say my whole name ^_^

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik is sorta tolerable. I recently did a MM set in this matchup, so I think my impression of the matchup is pretty fresh.

D-throw chaingrab on her til 40 if they don't DI, til something like 80 if they keep DIing to the sides and you can potentially combo into F-smash somewhere down the line if they insist on DIing towards the sides. U-air juggles are also great on her.

CCing is reeeealy good against her compared to other top tiers (beware her CC game though especially if you're in KO range).

Edgeguarding is semi-difficult, basically do what Mango does against M2K and just wait for her to land on stage and punish with F-air/B-air either for a combo or reset.

When she grabs or F-tilts you, basically its up to you to decide whether getting hit by her F-air or U-air is preferable when you DI. A lot of inexperienced Sheiks when they grab you at low percents won't know what to do if you DI to get slightly behind their head, and often times you might get free N-airs from it (Better Sheiks just U-tilt, but it's better than getting chaingrabbed at low percents), or at higher percents, they may forget about U-air and do weak B-air if you DI to that position.

When offstage, save Cape for deflecting needles if possible.

Platformed stages from my recollection suck against her for the most part, since her platform combo game is really good (DL64 is much preferable over BF and YI though). Otherwise I'd just stick to FD. FoD doesn't seem to be that horrible of a stage against her though since the lower platforms there can actually be more helpful for Mario's combo game without usually interfering with edgeguarding her or giving her too many gay exploits.

6/4ish in her favor...getting good stages imo is very important in this matchup.

 

[j3ly]

depends on how she plays, if she needle camps effectively you may as well switch chars, no lie.

i think it ranges. a mediocre shiek is a good player, and difficult to beat - this applies to all regions. 1/2 of playing mario is about getting around the mediocre shieks, and the skill full marths.

i played the best eu marth in brackets (makenshi, maybe amsah has a better marth though), and tbh it wasn't that bad. 2 stock and a 1 stock. he had momentum most of the time though. one french marth said to me 'your character! is so unfair! his hitboxes have so much priority!!' lolll heard that one before

i believe in switching mains for bad matchups, those being puff + falco VS shiek. however, if i had to peg it, based on the fact every single euro shiek that is good has needle camped and not approached ONCE EVER, 80-20 shiek. if she doesn't needle camp, it seems close to 50-50 to me - we can punish her so hardcore.

perhaps im just not used to the needle camping strategy though, but it seems like an almost flawless strategy on DL. unfortunately its the main strategy in Europe, seems to me. ive seen matches with like 150 needles fired, and 150 DJ needle cancels. i have heard amsah is so good he doesn't need to throw a single needle, but can needle camp top players to 400% each stock. crazy shiz

BAN DL!!!!!
CP FD/FoD

 

[A2ZOMG]

I personally fail to see how needle camping is that much better than say Falco's laser camping. Everyone knows where the Sheik zone is. Stay out of it before you bother approaching her. The fireball is also decently applicable in this matchup.

And I'd ban BF and YI waaaaaaaay sooner than banning DL64, since she really can't kill you vertically on DL64.

 

[j3ly]

lol, doesn't apply in europe ^^

also, dont forget that EU shieks dont really grab alot. that involves approaching. Uk was different, until SNY tournament.

falco's laser camping is so much easier to get around, whereas shieks platform camping is hard. (assuming she is up in %)

it appears to me you dont see the importance in cancelling the needle, to perform a DJ. this makes the shiek zone as u said, much much bigger and DL has large spaces inbetween the platforms. FoD, BF and FD effectively stop her from doing it as the platforms are either messed up or non-existant. she can get out no impact teleport (i think) needles on YS, and no impact backwards SH's (like on PS) so i stray away from there - you guys would hate the vertical killing power there, but over here mario kills shiek better than shiek kills mario on YS. never underestimate the power of A(SDI) on shieks fair.

i cant comment on uair or dthrow or anything like that, becuase shieks dont really use either
its just sh/dj/needle/fair/ftilt on occasion. (ftilt camping is a ******** strat, scrub bait as j03 calls it)

thats it, maybe a bair or 2000.

fireball works well enough

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Let's just call the matchup something along the lines of that Sheik will prob win and is gay.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

CA5H, see I think your talking about this along the lines of a popularity matchup
in which Mario wins over everybody except captain falcon, in which the matchup is 100-100
sheik is unpopular in this matchup because he is what we refer to in the smash community, and as you have stated, as "gay" or by some "homosexual"
so yes, Mario wins the matchup 90-10 because that 10 percent is like "sheik's priority numbah 1 best char int he game"
but in the serious matchup, i'm gona say 70/30
because a good sheik will not approach
and I repeat
will not approach

 

[KirbyKaze]

*pokes head in*

oh I see why i was called here

umm if any of you care i think peach mario is 60/40 but it looks like that one already finished up. i used to play peach a lot.

anyway

sheik mario is like 65-35 for sheik in ntsc i think

i THINK sheik can cg mario like she can vs marth if mario dis hard away from her d-throw and then if he di anywhere else she can just uair or u-tilt and do bigass combos but i don't see sheiks really go for that sort of thing because they're like "lol f-tilt" and then the combo ends 'cuz mario di away. i think the cg vs his di away works to like 40 but i'm not sure.

her combos are good on him because he has problems getting down. uair and bair ****.

fireballs are horrible and don't really apply much pressure. they just don't really bother sheik or infringe on her projectile game if she's playing defense. mostly because they don't bounce high enough to really bother her on a plat.

edgeguarding is pretty homo both ways, i think sheik is actually better at it because of how big her back air is and how good she is at holding invincibility vs mario's stalls. but mario should be able to do a large amount of damage in combo/chain grab or just repeatedly f/d-smash her off over and over so it's all good. mario has a ledgehop bair/nair for her close recovery "mixups" and "tricks" like air-dodging and he's pretty good at beating those so that's nice.

basically overall they both hit each other pretty hard with grabs and stuff but sheik has better defense and can play defense the whole game. and she's got more range where she needs it. and she's better at moving around the whole level.

so sheik can stay safe much much better and force mario to not be safe so like 65-35.

 

[j3ly]

and she's better at moving around the whole level

This along with severe needle camping... I have problems. I was new to the strategy though, now I've had time my subconscious mind has hopefully sorted it out for me. Without needle camping shiek doesn't seem a threat cause of cg and stage guarding.

Ever hard shiek I've played has used solid needle camping except fuz.
Need to play amsah or some american shiek player. A shiek from america is in england atm, he's getting ***** though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Without camping a lot of characters are ezmode.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

A shiek from america is in england atm,

USA! USA!

he's getting ***** tho

fu ck

and KK is completely right about fireball camping
it sucks

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Ive been having problems w marios fmsash lately. its just been unreliable, idk. I used to play doc so I let them in a little closer than fsmash but marios u need to be a little farther away right?

 

[MarioMariox2]

Ive been having problems w marios fmsash lately. its just been unreliable, idk. I used to play doc so I let them in a little closer than fsmash but marios u need to be a little farther away right?

The solution is actually very simple.

Dsmash/Grab when you're to close.

Or WD/Pivot away -> Fsmash.

 

[Lordydennek]

Ill post peach as 65 35 then. thats the average.
imo about sheik
its 70 30. maybe 6535 on a good day

needles. and grabs. she can do whatever she wants. the only way we win this is when the sheik stops camping and grabbing. then we cc and win. she controls the pace of the match
shes faster
shes deadlier
i hate her
you can combo her well and cg but good luck getting that going against a good sheik.

oh ill try to compile ssome stuff we've said. that'll take me a bit

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd rather play a Sheik than space animals. Needle camping has its startup gaps, and CCing makes all the difference in the world in being able to approach successfully. Her tilts are gay, but most of her aerials on the other hand don't make very good spacers.

Fullhop Fireballs are good in this matchup at long range and are sorta an answer to needle camping.

This matchup is very stage dependent. She usually benefits more from platforms, and YI is bad against her since her U-air kills retardedly easily on that stage.

 

[j3ly]

do you listen to yourself before you post?

she cant space well with her aerials... WHAT?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Compared to what Fox and Falco can do to space you out, Sheik is much easier to approach. And her jump physics generally make conventional spacing difficult for her since a lot of her stuff is not just CCable, it's crouch bait. Fox and Falco don't have that problem since they basically have the best jump physics in the game, and a number of good aerials and attacks that CCing is pointless against.

And like if she's playing aerial spacing games with you for whatever reason, you're probably going to win. Mario's SH spacing is much more efficient. But better Sheik players remain grounded until they're doing a combo. As good as her aerials are, they're mainly good because of their punishing utility. Actually doing air to ground spacing with her is usually not her best option, partly because her ground zoning is much better, and also because it's not exactly hard for most characters to beat her in horizontal air exchanges (F-air is okay in terms of range but doesn't last long, B-air pretty much needs the sweetspot to be really worthwhile when spacing).

 

[Lordydennek]

Bair spacing works pretty good against a lot of chars. and spacing fairs in front of someones sheild is super good. she lacks aerial mobility tho...so if you can get under her you can win. gotta be real fast.

 

[condemned_soul]

wait....cant sheik chaingrab Mario?

 

[StealthyGunnar]

like 2-3 grabs. Just like falcon on all medium weight chars

 

[condemned_soul]

which leads to FTilt and the Fair/s from hell. **** i hate fairs because of sheik

 

[StealthyGunnar]

kdj's mario (maybe these will help?)

vs. Sheik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHagHTdznow

vs. Captain Falcon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWBA7pW2BqY

vs. Ganondorf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chxtt5We184

vs. Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN7X0nEwctQ

vs. Fox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKM2F1jC4k

vs. Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HuQL66PKo

reposted. ya these r from 6months ago, so. ya

 

[M@1funk$hun]

which leads to FTilt and the Fair/s from hell. **** i hate fairs because of sheik

I love fairs because of captain falcon

and jabs because of pikachu
whenever pika jabs I'm like "I'M GONNA HEADBUTT YA, I'M GONNA HEADBUTT YA"

 

[Lordydennek]

so sheik is 65 35?

 

[M@1funk$hun]

nah I'd say about 70/30 for final #s
but I wanna keep it on sheik for a little longer just to see if other ideas pop up

 

[Lordydennek]

lets see some numbers guys

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, the main reason people seem to be saying Sheik is hard is because she's hard to approach?

I don't consider her as hard to approach as space animals, and you get massive grab reward on her like you do against spacies. She's also easier to edgeguard than Fox in most situations, although harder to edgeguard than Falco.

Like she definitely wins because her ground game is just too good and most of her moves when not crouched canceled lead to big punishes that will eventually kill you, but I don't consider her as hard for Mario as other matchups. I think the worst part of dealing with Sheik is deciding between getting hit by F-air or U-air.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

70 30 sheik. I think she should be in top tier w/ fox and falco, jiggly being in god tier.

 

[condemned_soul]

i enjoying playing doc against jiggs for some reason

 

[StealthyGunnar]

cuz all jiggs hate good docs. 1 missed rest usually = death anyways. plus da mega kobe punch.