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The Mario Match-Up Discussion Thread! Now on falcon

Discussion in 'Mario' started by M@1funk$hun, Sep 15, 2010.

  1. M@1funk$hun

    M@1funk$hun
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    As we are all aware here in the Mario boards, the match-up guide is extremely out of date and missing the gayest and most overused character in this game, Zelda.
    [​IMG]
    From here we can start talking about the strategies we can use against characters, stuff that out prioritizes their stuff, why Dr. Mario is a terrible excuse for the one and only plumber, and even say inappropriate things about Peach.
    So I'm thinking we could pick up where the theorycrafting thread left off and keep discussing matchups in general.

    Currently Discussing:
    DK
    Match-Ups Finished (Finished are highlight in green, unfinished are in red)
    Fox 65-35 (Fox's favor)
    Falco 60-40 (Falco's favor)
    Puff50-50 (IMPORTANTThis matchup is MUCH easier if you play Doctor Mario)
    Sheik70-30 (sheik's favor)
    Marth65-35 (Blademan's favor)
    Peach 65-35 (Peach's favor)
    Racecar Driver 55-45 (C. Falc's favor)
    Ice Climbers65-35 (OUR FAVOR)
    Samus 60-40 (Samus' favor)
    Ganondorf 65-35 (Ganon's Favor)
    Dr. Mario55-45 (OUR FAVOR)
    MARIO DITTOS!
    Pikachu65-35 (OUR FAVOR)
    Luigi 55-45 (Luigi Favor)
    Donkey Kong55-45 (OUR FAVOR)
    Link65-35 (OUR FAVOR)
    Zelda
    Mewtwo
    Roy
    Young Link 70-30 (OUR FAVOR)
    Mr. G&W60-40 (OUR FAVOR)
    Yoshi
    Pichu
    Bowser
    Ness
    Kirby

    Also, if you would like me to get a proffesional with the character we are discussing in here, or possibly some doc mains because Mario and Doc are so similar, please tell me.

    I would like to go in order of this list, because it is the newest tier list, and therefore in pretty good order depending on relevance. But if you went to some national and got a **** ton of Young Link experience, then absolutely go ahead and post while it is still fresh in your mind.
    So lets get started Mario mains. The revival starts now.

    A meaningful post from our Hero Bamesy

    Pikachu:

    Background Info
    A fun matchup if the pika is good. Heavily in your favor because the rat doesn't have much to outspace you or out power you. Most pika's like to nair THROUGH your shield and space uairs from there, so the best option is to just not shield in this matchup because your Utilt will beat out anything pika can approach with (mostly nair). Pika is faster than you, but not by much, so try and have a sense of prediction and cut off as many options as you can with FH dairs or platform dsmashes. Pika has some fun with his Up-B, so the best thing you can do is grab the ledge (this cuts off one option) and if he chooses to land onstage WD on and throw his *** back off with a bthrow

    DON'T
    -Fall for the baits. Pikachu has no range or priority over you so the rat will try and mindgame you to death. Don't let this happen or you'll get combo'd/ tail spiked, which brings me to my next thing not to do
    -Get tail spiked. It's easily avoidable if you UpB when you think he's going to do it, but if you are DI'ing properly and end up above him, then you'll most likely be eating tail
    -Get Sniped. Recovering a little low? save a good cape for when you think he's gonna send a jolt because they're hard to attack through when recovering.
    DO
    -Utilt. It's what's going to beat pikachu the worst. Plain and simple. Nothing he can do can outrange it aside from fsmash.
    -Fsmash. Save thing as utilt basically just with more range and more lag. Be careful with these because pikachu's LOVE to punish
    -Combooooooooo. You got an easy combo target here. Don't uair spam as much as you do against, say, FFers, because pika is slightly floaty.
    Ganondorf:

    Background Info
    Personally, my favorite matchup. His nair is identical to C. Falc's, so use the same strategies that were stated there. His fair beats your everything. It's just a giant fist flying through the air that's better than our fist (don't worry, it's the only fist that's better). Ganon outranges most of Mario's stuff just with a jab or fair. Fortunately, he's so slow that you can get around it. What most like to do is after an aerial do a jab just to cover the option of most anything because of how much power/ range his jab has. Same recovery as C. Falc except slower. Easy edgeguard. This matchup comes down to baiting and adapting a lot (atleast from my perspective) so don't hurt your brain too much because all in all he's just a big lug.

    DON'T
    -go superduper aggro on him. Like I said his fair beats what ever you got and he also has a few options off of grab (chaingrab, I think) just close space gradually rather than quickly
    -try and oppose his aerials. Some may try to drop down from a plat and bair you, so from here just DD away from it or if you have ridiculous prediction skills uair before he can get the bair out and abuse the startup lag.
    -try and outspace him. just use your speed to get inside and crouch cancel stuff, he's too slow to punish you most of the time
    -aerial through his shield. he can jump out and bair you easy.
    DO
    -grab. oh lordy do you have to grab. you have a dthrow chaingrab on him until you mess up. seriously it goes on forever, and even then you can probably throw a victory fist to fsmash to finish the combo. CC grab works wonders
    -edgeguard PROPERLY. don't overcomplicate things. it's an easy bair/cape and he's dead.
    -WD into SHIELD or WD OOS. this baits him to do a fade away fair to which you can WD out and grab. even with dat crazy lcancel you still have a frame advantage if you're quick enough.

    Captain Falcon:

    Background Info
    Probably one of the most fun matchups in the game aside from falcon dittos/ technical falco dittos. C. Falc can combo your *** just as well as you can combo his with his long legs and tight suit and whatnot. Falcons also contain a raptor boost, their sideB, which will devastate the non-worthy Mario player. They like to dash dance into this so try not to go for any early fairs that might get you pulverized. The average falcon player is also fast, but Mario can equal that speed with proper platform game or just smart wavedashes. Also, falcon's bread and butter approach tactic (nair) is hard to beat (go into it in more detail later). Watch for the gentleman on shield if you shield the nair. They like to do this to stop shield grabs. Fortunately there is some lag after gentleman to play around with. Mix up your techs as best you can because falcon is based around tech chases.

    DON'T
    -stand still. If anything just dashdance around a little bit, he's too fast for you to just let him do as he pleases.
    -approach. his nair beats your aerials. period. end of story. plus you have the fiyabawl to help your camping needs.
    -survival DI. this just makes his combos that much easier to perform on someone with such a fun comboing weight as Mario. only survival DI if you think the Knee is coming or he caught you with a random Fsmash or something. otherwise Down and Away DI.
    -let him back on stage. for the love of god don't do it. he's just soooo easy to edge guard. you can etiher bair him or simply cape if he chooses to go low. I find that bair is a better choice sometimes though because if he sweetspots it and you cape, turning him around doesn't stop him from grabbing the ledge. although you can try and trick him by staying on the ledge, make him commit to landing on the stage, then do a normal getup and cape him when he gets too close. But I digress.
    -Fall for the gimmicks. Random falcon kicks, flying reverse knees, stage spikes, random *** grabs. these are all things that should be expected because most falcons are just straight up flashy.

    DO
    -Utilt. Oh girl is this your bread and butter. If you time it so you hit the first part of his nair, you can beat it (WD into utilt is the best setup for this I've found) it beats SH dair if they're dumb enough to try it, and it STARTS COMBOS. Utilt -> Uair Blind, yeah that's falcon's worst nightmare. If they name the Wheel of Fortune after anything , it'll be OUR uair, not his. If you do land the victory fist on him, don't drop the combo, or start a tech chase if they choose to crouch cancel it (if they're above 20%, don't worry about them CCing it) hell you can even jab reset off of it
    -Dsmash. If you come in with a Uair approach and it gets shielded/ CCd, go for a dsmash afterwards. It's usually a good idea to do this after aerials just to make sure, but falcon in particular because this is how you can stop them from grabbing you if you decide to approach (which you shouldn't be doing)
    -Chaingrab (not in friendlies) but yeah chaingrab. I'll have to double check the percentages, but you have an uthrow chaingrab on him for awhile, into what is most likely a dthrow chaingrab.
    -Have fun. Like I said, it's a fun matchup that you can scream over and oggle at the nasty combos.

    Ice Climbers:

    Background Info
    IC's aerial game outranges ours. Their bair has more range, along with their uair if you decide to come down. The Italien's approaches are also completely stuffed by blizzard if you come in with a SH anything. Fortunately for us the IC's have a laggy WD and are relatively floaty, making them slow in the air. Theres also two of them, so twice the Chris Breezys to throw on their ***. Their WD has 14 frames of lag (most frames in the cast I think, but I'm not sure) so abuse that if you see movement patterns.

    DON'T
    -Get above the IC's. This matchup is a combo fest for Mario is you play it right, but the IC's got that uair that is gonna juggle you till the Goombas come home.
    -Get grabbed. Fortunately the IC's have little to do on Mr. Large Fist (other than wobbling of course) but still that's an easy 30% your looking at if you do get grabbed
    -Be too aggressive. Once your inside the two, for the love of god stay there, but they panic over your fireballs because all they got is some iceblocks, so camping isn't out of the question.

    DO
    -Dsmash. Use it. Abuse it. You're gonna serve those punk *** climbers with your fresh moves. There's also not much they can do about it aside from jumping over it and fairing. Careful to not get this shielded often either, because it can once again get you faired.
    -Utilt. No not uair, utilt. Since the IC's can eat you alive if your caught in the air by mistake, use your ground game to get THEM up in the air. From here just don't drop the combo, because it's almost guaranteed.
    -Grab. Fthrow and Bthrow work wonders in this matchup because they both have a hitbox that knocks other enemies away as you are throwing the first enemy. You become a ****ing wrecking ball with a hat on. A red hat. Stained with Ice Climber blood.
     
  2. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    against fox-
    FULL JUMP NAIRS
    swear it works great.
    this mu is all about bein really fast and predicting the fox.
    after hes off balance chain throw for a bit. u tilt, utilt, upsmash, bair, edgeguard. the end.
    works like a charm.

    umm dont crouch cancel his shines cuz he can run up and grab or upsmash you if you do.
    di his u throw up and away.
    he can tech chase with dthrow but its all a guess and easy for him to miss.

    dsmash is pretty legit. not a bad option if you need some space.
    dair to fsmash is hawt-but not a guarentee.

    once the combos start you should have an easy time getting rid of him.
    wd and dd are essential in this fight. full hop a dair now and then if youre out of options.

    otherwise this mu isnt so bad. I'd rather fight it then falco or shiek.
     
  3. condemned_soul

    condemned_soul
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    Dont forget grabs are very important. Mario can chaingrab fox by repeatedly up throwing him. There are plenty of other things you can do with grabs like Up throw into a utilt, up smash (both those move can lead to being able to regrab fox at 20%), Nair, Bair(SHABAWD) U-air (but this isnt the best move to do), Down smash, or forward smash.
     
  4. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    Against Marth-
    Marth is super easy to combo.
    super easy
    The problem with this mu is that its hard to get in on him. I honestly think that this mu should be -1 and the sheik mu should be -2 but whatevs.
    Stuff to do-
    Dthrow is great. to upsmash to a uair or two
    THEN RUN AWAY AND WAIT unless you can kill him fo sho from the combo
    dont get to carried away cuz he'll fair out and kill ya
    fire ball a little bit. not too much or ull get punished.
    basically wait for him to space incorrectly. grab dthrow combo to death
    ur fsmash is super good and you can cc his fairs a low percents.
    umm your bair is great in this mu. knock him off and ledgehog. then if you can guess his recovery bair him but that risky. basically be very patient. wait for him to mess up then take advantage.
     
  5. M@1funk$hun

    M@1funk$hun
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    hey condemned soul, where you been hiding?
    @Lordydennek talking about fox
    the only thing I disagree with is the dair -> fsmash. not as hawt as i thought it was. usually because
    1)the fsmash doesn't sweetspot, so fox is probably gonna not die/have the advantage if he DIs it right
    2) dair -> grab is better. if you think he's too high to do a uthrow/dthrow, back throw him offstage or let the grab time out and throw out a nair
    also, I think the FH nair approach works because Plumber nair > fox nair. Mario has that huge boot on...fox has his gay *** reeboks
    (and don't by any means get predictable with those FH nairs. use the FH dair if u think he's catching on)
     
  6. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    actually Fox's nair is better. BUT if mario comes from above he will win out. thats why you have to full hop it. and when i do dair to fsmash I di away from him then fsmash so i do get the sweet spot. I do it in a vid ill post soon. but ya grab isnt a bad option.
     
  7. M@1funk$hun

    M@1funk$hun
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    maybe it's just a playstyle thing. I feel that mario's grabs are ****in amazing so I use em a lot. and fox FH nair is a common strategy they use from what I've read on the fox boards. so worst case scenario = you see the fox FH nair your nair twice and then you get under him. and when Mario gets under a spacie, ****s about to go down.
     
  8. condemned_soul

    condemned_soul
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    Shoot a couple of fireballs if fox tries to get really technical with you. dont make it a normal thing because you dont want fox to get campy as well. Cape does well but if fox knows the Mario match up, the cape should only be used against fox's recovery.

    Uair is not handy in this match up since its knocks them so far plus fox is a FFer so you might not be able to combo out of Uair. This is not a good move to use against fox.

    U-tilt is a great way to juggle fox because usually you are able to pull of more then one if you successfully hit fox with one. it can lead to anything at 25-35% or so but i prefer to regrab, Nair, Utilt, or Up-smash.

    most of fox's moves will be followed by a shine and then they will jump back in the air. i punished this with up+B (if its a pattern), Grab (if you know when), Nair, or a Uair since most likely the next move they are going to do is a Dair or nair

    when Fox is at 0%, Fairs are awesome. A combo that i do if i can catch fox at 0% with a fair is Fair>grab>Dthrow>Fair>jab>grab>Uthrow>usmash>grab>Uthrow> utilt>grab>Uthrow>Fsmash.

    ill add more later -_-
     
  9. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    What makes you say the uair is bad against him????
    i disagree.

    also...I wouldnt punish with upb. its not a good idea. unless ur out of options
    and if they are nair shining ur sheild YOU CANT GRAB. unless they mess up.
     
  10. condemned_soul

    condemned_soul
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    Thats why i said if its a habit of them jumping to do another move you can stop it with Up+B. you dont have to punish him like I do to each his own my friend.

    lol ok the only time you should U-air is if fox is at like 70-80% if they are in the air which can lead to a F-smash. Dair and Nair are better options to use then Uair in most situations

    about the grabs obviously if you grab them when they mess up, you know when to grab him. the only mess ups fox can do in situation is miss a l cancel or stay in their shine for a split second to long to get grabbed It may not be the best option to do but it is an option. if you do the same moves over and over they will figure out a way to get around it.

    next time ill be more specific with what I say. We need to get good together and that is the road i want to stay on. if you see anything else let me know and i will retest to see if I can still correct/improve whatever is being discussed

    Mario FTW
     
  11. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    idk. against a really good fox its gonna be hard to shield grab him. I'd try to nair oos b4 id grab.
     
  12. j3ly

    j3ly
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    FYI, there is about a 2 frame disadvantage on fox's perfect shield pressure, i think 3 frames with bair and uair. people think fox/falco are so perfect at pressuring shields - they really arnt. its a very common misconception along with IC's CG's are inescapable. however, cause they have 3 different mixups with aerial - shine (4/5 if you include DIing behind you, or away) its a really stupid idea to shield grab unless u angle ur shield upwards, and they miss the cancel.

    who said uair is bad against fox? its excellent.. its hard to tech, it can be purposefully whiffed to bait fsmashes, its auto cancels, it comes out from FH dair, if they miss a tech you can late uair them and get in a further 2 uairs. you can encourage them to miss a tech with dthrow utilt/dtilt or something.

    uthrow -> late uair -> nair is gold, and an excellent killer. same as falcons side B -> late uair -> knee.

    general dair -> uair gimps off stage, uair -> bair gimps offstage, uair -> fair -> dsmash on stage... the list could go on and on.

    it really depends how the fox plays the matchup. After playing Zgetto my opinion on the fox matchup has changed - I took a game on FD but the other 2 we played (BF + PS) i got ***** by the platforms. when a fox fully utilises his speed and angles of attack along with platforms and a good bait game, this matchup becomes really really hard for mario. they were only friendly, but this style of fox was unmovable

    this being said, mario has much much better gimps on fox - so long as the move sets up an actual edgeguard instad of the fox DI'ing and having tons of options to recover with (bair,nair, ftilt, fthrow alone set up this situation on a fox with good DI), then fox has virtually no chance of returning to the stage. mario also has excellent combos on fox, and reliable killers.

    forget trying to grab him ooS - bait, or setup into a grab.
    dont attempt shield grabs. use the great spacing potential of fair uair and bair to land grabs.
    use fireball waveland to land grabs
    use fair - grab @ low %'s
    any late aerial - grab at low %'s
    FH dair AC to land grabs
    jab reset - grab/fsmash
    edgehog - grab.
    just dont shield grab!

    my favourite, dthrow -> utilt. if they miss the tech, perform late dair. so long as the floor hitbox hits them, and you l-cancel correctly, thats a free grab.



    I'd peg it at 60/40 in fox's favour at top level, otherwise it is heavily in marios favour due to the precision needed behind fox, and marios unbelievable punishment game.
     
  13. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    I agree with Jely. the uair is def good. and ya sheild grabs wont work.

    but Idk about the firebsll to grab....those fireballs kinda suck...balls.
     
  14. M@1funk$hun

    M@1funk$hun
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    rofl at saying uairs won't work
    srsly uairs are ****in awesome. ask kirbykaze. he likes uair. a lot.
    and imo shield grabs are very predictable and punishable. I do it out of habit still, but i try not to do it in general. not just against fox.
    j3ly, about your games with zgetto
    so a fox with a hit and run sort of tactic is going to be mario's worst nightmare? because that seems like the kind of playstyle your describing
     
  15. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    oh ya. Fox's that keep trying to wave/drillshine grab you will soon get punished by our dsmash. or fsmash...or we could grab them or just whatever you want.
     
  16. M@1funk$hun

    M@1funk$hun
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    punish with dsmash
    more reliable knockback than fsmash
    probably won't be DI'd
    if it is DI'd, they can't do much out of it unless they're below 25 -30 %
    good **** Lordy
    any ideas on laser camping foxes? because I don't think we can out camp them with our balls of fire
    (I'm pretty sure they won't laser camp at first because they think "I'M FOX HAVE U EVEN SEEN THOSE TIER LISTZ??" but still halfway through the match when you've beaten they're approaches enough, they're gonna get a little frightened)
     
  17. condemned_soul

    condemned_soul
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    well im going to keep beating fox the way i know how. i play combo wise, one mistake is all i need. Thats why i say to each his own.
     
  18. j3ly

    j3ly
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    i got tournament vids recorded yesterday, the 1st and 3rd games i obliterate my opponent (fox) but the 2nd game he took me to floats and camped pretty hard. i managed to outcamp him the whole game by shooting fireballs only above him. Also got 2 games vs a samus player, before i get 2 or 3 -0'd by professor pro :(

    he told me exactly what he did to close the gap from last time, and when the vids come i can see it more. but he said to focus on baiting alot less. i got kinda *****.. will post vids when they availiable
     
  19. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    so lets get more concise. what do we think the mu is with fox?
    im saying
    fox 55 45
    its not too far from even
     
  20. A2ZOMG

    A2ZOMG
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    Fox beats Mario pretty solidly. Probably 6/4 to 65/35 depending on stage. Unless he's at low percents, he's actually fairly hard to gimp, he doesn't die as early as Mario would like, and most of his aerials are very hard for Mario to deal with when spaced well. Plus he technically doesn't have to approach Mario. He has many reliable ways to end Mario's stock fairly early, either by comboing into Up-smash/U-air, or shinespiking Mario.

    The chaingrab makes the matchup winnable, since a mistake on Fox's part is pretty costly, but a Fox player that plays carefully as to not get grabbed is very very difficult for Mario to deal with.
     
  21. condemned_soul

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    good **** A2Z. I have 1 request and that is could you also do the jiggs MU
     
  22. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    I dont agree. fox cannot combo mario....
    like no
    idk what youre talking about comboing into a uair or upsmash.
    you can di out of the shine and uthrow... also i find fox fairly easy to kill and gimp.

    plus we get chain grab and instant combos from uthrow and utilt. in all honesty its fairly close to even.
     
  23. j3ly

    j3ly
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    LORDYDENNEK SHUT YA MAAAAAATH

    fox can combo the crap out of mario, technical combos based around platform dropped weak bairs, weak nairs, jabs and dash attacks. dtilt, utilt, uthrow uair. pleaaaaase, fox can combo the ****e out of mario
     
  24. A2ZOMG

    A2ZOMG
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    I've played legit Foxes before. It's...a very unpleasant matchup when they realize that they actually win by just trading hits and avoiding grabs at all costs. Moreso unpleasant if they have Shine -> Up-smash mastered and use it whenever you're around like 80%.

    Vs Jiggs I think ranges around 6/4 to 55/45 Jigglypuff. It's slow and boring, but you can't ever lose focus. Obviously avoid U-tilt -> Rest like the plague. Her B-air spacing is gay, but yours is just gay enough to compete, and trades in this situations are favorable for you. However you you can't mess up your DI if she starts B-air comboing you, since that can end your stock pretty fast. Never F-air against this character, too punishable. Space U-tilts and U-angled F-tilts to mix up between your B-air spacing. Killing her is pretty much a matter of landing a random hit at high percents, but I would personally recommend trying U-smash if your timing with it is good.
     
  25. condemned_soul

    condemned_soul
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    yeah i played junglefever and hes a pretty legit fox IMO. next time i see him a want a money match. hes will see this post so i will get the MM pretty soon. what do you have to do to become a melee back roomer?
     
  26. A2ZOMG

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    tl;dr, Fox looks easy at first when you have the chaingrab mastered. But becomes a nightmare in actual practice against a good Fox who knows how he can avoid it.

    Well at any rate, Mario's worst matchup imo is Falco, who is also chaingrabbable, but he pressures the hell out of Mario much better than Fox. He has a slightly harder time killing Mario, but his B-air and D-air are nasty enough to Mario's recovery, and his F-smash is serious business that he can Jab cancel into. I would say Mario loses 7/3 to Falco on most stages not named Dreamland 64. He able to both outcamp and out-approach Mario in almost all situations.

    On a more positive note, I think Mario goes basically even with Falcon. It's a very technical matchup for Mario, but one where almost all of his strengths just open up. Mario can combo Falcon well, and gimp him extremely consistently, and he has good ways of walling a number of Falcon's approaches that can lead to combos and then gimps.
     
  27. -Sinister-

    -Sinister-
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    ...yeah fox definitely can't uthrow uair mario, except maybe at zero. learn to jump j3ly
     
  28. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    you guys...MARIO CANT BE SHINED INTO AN UPSMASH UNLESS YOU CC OR DO SOMETHING STUPID or the fox is perfect. like frame perfect. MARIO CANT BE UTHROW UAIRED AT ALL OVER 0%. for real...

    fox can utilt and bair you but that doesnt last long until you can nair out. seriously. its not a bad mu. falco is worse. but not much. just dont play him on fd.
     
  29. condemned_soul

    condemned_soul
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    dude you need to play atleast a decent fox because usmash comes more then you think especially after shining.

    If you mess up playing a good falco, **** could be in your future.
     
  30. Lordydennek

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    uhh. excuse me. Ive never even heard of you. and I play a really good fox all the time. you literally have to be frame perfect to get the upsmash. you know that fox cant ws usmash every char right??
     
  31. A2ZOMG

    A2ZOMG
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    Funny, the guy I play nails Shine Up-smash pretty consistently against me as I recall.

    And by the way, if the Fox does know how to space his U-air, U-throw U-air is pretty reliable and beats your N-air.
     
  32. Lordydennek

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    well Ive had no trouble avoiding the shine upsmash...are you ccing? holding towards him?? also the uthrow uair does not work... you can jump away...air dodge. drill. whatever u want
     
  33. A2ZOMG

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    D-air is definitely too slow. Airdodging is not viable in that position. Jumping is okay, except you WILL get gimped if he N-airs or B-airs you from that position (and killed regardless if he still manages to U-air you). And N-air as cited does not reliably beat his U-air. U-throw U-air is pretty reliable for early kills overall honestly, considering how much trouble Mario has to go through to actually avoid it.
     
  34. Lordydennek

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    dude. this is melee not brawl. you have time. for real. idk where youre getting this info
     
  35. condemned_soul

    condemned_soul
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    well i just ask someone and they told me that fox can even shine jc grab mario.
     
  36. A2ZOMG

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    I play both games quite proficiently. And whatever answers Mario might have to U-throw U-air, none of them are reliable against a well-spaced U-air and either probably just flat out don't work or still leave him in danger.

    If you don't crouch cancel Fox's Jab, he can also combo into Up-smash just fine with that move. And Fox wins this matchup easily by just camping and spacing aerials carefully.

    And I think I also mentioned that Fox doesn't die very early against Mario. Even if you chaingrab him, if his DI doesn't suck, at most you're going to just deal around 90ish damage to him, and then you're in a tough position to actually KO Fox. You have to wait until around like...140 before D-throw U-smash kills him (110 is good for D-throw F-smash, but it is very hard to do on reaction).

    At any rate Fox pretty obviously wins against Mario. Even if Mario has a chaingrab on him, it's still clearly much easier for Fox to space safely and land kills in more situations. Mario basically just hopes Fox just runs into a lot of grabs or gimmicky traps while Fox just gets kills by outspacing Mario.
     
  37. condemned_soul

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    Mario has to try alot harder to kill fox then fox has to kill Mario pretty much.
     
  38. Lordydennek

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    Yes thats true but mario has to try harder than like every character to kill them. and hello. he's a spacie. he can get gimped easily. we have the cape. bthrow at like 100 leads to an easy edgegaurd. if you catch him in a bair combo you can kill him at like 60. learn how to gimp. and i play a really good fox. his name is Sinister you can watch his vids. I promise mario is safe from uthrow uair.
     
  39. Zone

    Zone
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    Sometimes I can land upthrow up-air and it looks like he couldn't get out. But yeah like Lordydennek says, Most of the time My mario friends jump out or do some sort of move. of course i've learned to bait it by jumping straight up into a waveland in place to proc his jump then try to punish him after he loses it. But w/e :D It definitely feels like mario gets out of upthrow up air than most other characters. I feel like there is a % time where the upthrow up air works perhaps?

    To think of it, maybe those times I landed the up-throw up air, he thought I would bait him? that's why I landed it. I'd have to ask him. He might've tried to wait for my bait instead of jumping ASAP. Might've been why I hit him.
     
  40. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    The only time i get hit is when i dont di and jump. then i just ff a dair. and im safe 90% of the time. at like 0% i think you can get uaired. but thats it. if you marios are getting hit youre not doing it right. end of story
     

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