STiCKYBULL3TZ
Smash Ace
After a Fair I usually follow it up with a Fireball. Not guaranteed but if they don't tech or do nothing then the Fireball catches them as they land and locks them. The rest is easy
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Q&A The Luigi Q&A Thread (CHECK HERE BEFORE MAKING A THREAD PLEASE)
- Thread starter FalKoopa
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STiCKYBULL3TZ
Smash Ace
Double posting again...But I have another question:
What have you guys found to be the best way to recover when knocked away far but kind of low?
What have you guys found to be the best way to recover when knocked away far but kind of low?
TriTails
Smash Lord
Semi-spike?
I Green Missile'd low but adjusting that I don't commit a suicide but low enough so Luigi Cyclone doesn't shot me through the ledge, then Luigi Cyclone up high, making sure I end up below the ledge, then save myself with SJP.
Yeah, kind of gimpable, I know, unless you can mash the button well.
STiCKYBULL3TZ
Smash Ace
Yeah that's pretty much what I try to do too. Against good players I often get gimped doing this. Maybe rising above and away from the ledge then falling to the ledge will work as a mix up? Lately, I haven't needed to Luigi Cyclone and I've been recovering fine just using Green Missile then double jump then SJP. I pretty much been avoiding getting semi-spiked altogether.
Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
No...but I encourage someone to do so, would warrant a sticky if composed well. I'm not too great with frame data though. Last time I hear Luigi's is one of the best in game?
was just checking before I started one, Luigi always been a fun side character for me to play. Not sure what other people think about him, but with the changes to DI and some other things, I think he's really good well so long as he is onstage. Anyways after getting the formatting ready I should be able to make decent progress. Hopefully I'll get it done in the next week.
Side note ; I was looking at it earlier there is some not fun things to decipher in there
STiCKYBULL3TZ
Smash Ace
A long time ago ppl were talking about using Cyclone offstage to intercept recoveries. Has anyone been trying this? If so, was it a viable edgeguarding tool?
1PokeMastr
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2009
- Messages
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It works incredibly well for edguarding, I use it whenever I have the chance infact.
It doesn't work well vs Lucario/ Villager/ Sonic/ Kirby/ DDD/ jiggs/ Pit/ Dark Pit
While it is still entirely possible to gimp these characters with the down b, it's a lot harder
If you can mash down b fast enough, Luigi can go as low as anyone.
Every hit before the final hit of cyclone, is a spike.. so if they trade it it, they're toast
The easiest to edgeguard with it are..
Robin, Ganon, Olimar, Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, Megaman
Those are all the absolute easiest, you can even do it vs Ike, but it's really tricky/ needs to be well timed or you'll die in the process.
STiCKYBULL3TZ
Smash Ace
Yeah I thought so. I see Mr ConCon do it. Looks like the only way to truly pull it off is to be able to mash really well. Other than that you have to hope for a trade in order to get the spike
1PokeMastr
Smash Champion
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Not sure if it still works in smash 4, but for brawl people would set the d-pad to all specials and just mash it for mashing
It worked well in brawl, It might still work for smash 4
OddCrow
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2007
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So I discovered that if you input side-b right after jumping, your jump height increases by like 1.5x.
I've found this invaluable in mixing up my recoveries and it creates some ridiculous aerial chase options.
Is this widely known?
I've found this invaluable in mixing up my recoveries and it creates some ridiculous aerial chase options.
Is this widely known?
TriTails
Smash Lord
Yeah. The Smash Wiki says it. At around..... Brawl Luigi page? I think this has been widely known.
But yes, it's pretty nice.
STiCKYBULL3TZ
Smash Ace
I knew there were some weird jump things with Luigi but I didn't know that. Having that double jump available helps Luigi's recovery so much. Extra height on side B, down B, and up B when used with a double jump. It lets him mix up so well.
It also seems like jumping on top of someone else's jump makes you jump extra high. Like 2x a regular full hop. Haven't done any kind of testing but that looks to be the case
It also seems like jumping on top of someone else's jump makes you jump extra high. Like 2x a regular full hop. Haven't done any kind of testing but that looks to be the case
TriTails
Smash Lord
Footstooling indeed sends Luigi absurdly high. He IS the 2nd highest jumper (I think) after all. I'm serious. He can just jump really dang high.
Though, one must master the jumpless Cyclone so if their double jump got interrupted, they still can Nado back to safety. Gimpable, but worth a try.
Luigi probably has one of the most recovery mix-ups out there. Being able to use three special moves really helps him out.
Now if only Green Missile and Luigi Cyclone don't have that stupid high end lag...
Though, one must master the jumpless Cyclone so if their double jump got interrupted, they still can Nado back to safety. Gimpable, but worth a try.
Luigi probably has one of the most recovery mix-ups out there. Being able to use three special moves really helps him out.
Now if only Green Missile and Luigi Cyclone don't have that stupid high end lag...
STiCKYBULL3TZ
Smash Ace
But what I'm talking about isn't even footstooling. Or at least it doesn't look like footstooling. The footstool animation doesn't happen but you get massive height when double jumping right next to/on top of their double jump
TriTails
Smash Lord
I think that is footstooling. Level 9 CPUs does that so much. They footstool, but I am not sent downward at all, and they jump REALLY high from that. This, is what makes me believe Bowser had 3 midair jumps when I fight his CPU.
Dunno why, but this seem wierd. I mean, I'm not even sent downwards, and they just jump off my head and gain ludicrous height. I think I was double jumping at that time too.
Last edited:
1PokeMastr
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2009
- Messages
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If you preform a move while jumping, you do not go into the footstool tumble.
However, the opponent stills gains the height from a footstool.
If you jumped and they footstool you, you would fall with your jump gone
However, the opponent stills gains the height from a footstool.
If you jumped and they footstool you, you would fall with your jump gone
Dakpo
Smash Lord
Is getting footstooled after our side B a guaranteed option for our opponents?
ThunderSt0rm
Smash Champion
Possibly, but it might be a bit risky to do since they would have to be familiar with how far sideb will go with varying amounts of charge. And that's not even factoring in possible misfires to screw over their plans.
Getting footstooled out of sideb isn't too much of a problem if you still have your jump. Getting footstooled at all without your jump is when it's a problem.
Getting footstooled out of sideb isn't too much of a problem if you still have your jump. Getting footstooled at all without your jump is when it's a problem.
Dakpo
Smash Lord
This is something we should test, I have been edgeguarded multiple times because this keeps happening to me
ThunderSt0rm
Smash Champion
Well are you getting footstooled out of sideb while you have your second jump?
STiCKYBULL3TZ
Smash Ace
Any preference to using C stick for attack instead of smash for Luigi? I've been messing with it a bit and it's useful to get those quick Utilts when someone's behind you. That's really the only thing I've found truly useful. I've found myself doing more accidental Nairs too. I'm thinking about switching back to smash but I wanted to get other Luigi opinions on this
I'm really tempted to change that on my C stick, but it would be a large adjustment for me, I'm really used to C stick smashes. special for D smash
is it me or are the pits like 8-2, maybe more like 7-3, matchup. Because with their air mobility they can spike you out of your headbutt everytime.
If you ever get knocked off the stage to where you can't down b back up, even then you can catch a back air, you'll be forced to use side b, and a decent pit will be waiting because you're super vulnerable after a headbutt.
I don't think this would be much of an issue, but the fact that the pits can convert an attack by luigi into an edge guard set up with their side b; So even if you're playing solid, one read on their part at decent percents, and that could be your life. Also the fact that luigi's game plan is to grab, and pits don't like to stay on the ground that match.
I play dark pit alongside luigi. Dark has a tough time killing because all his kills have to come from traps and guards, but with luigi, I don't have problems killing. Especially when the player tries to make a read and charges a smash out of range, because pits have crazy range on their f smash.
If you ever get knocked off the stage to where you can't down b back up, even then you can catch a back air, you'll be forced to use side b, and a decent pit will be waiting because you're super vulnerable after a headbutt.
I don't think this would be much of an issue, but the fact that the pits can convert an attack by luigi into an edge guard set up with their side b; So even if you're playing solid, one read on their part at decent percents, and that could be your life. Also the fact that luigi's game plan is to grab, and pits don't like to stay on the ground that match.
I play dark pit alongside luigi. Dark has a tough time killing because all his kills have to come from traps and guards, but with luigi, I don't have problems killing. Especially when the player tries to make a read and charges a smash out of range, because pits have crazy range on their f smash.
TriTails
Smash Lord
Simply can be easily edgeguarded doesn't mean insta 7-3. If that were the case, LM would be even worse than Swordfighter.
I think simply Cyclone up high, then air dodge their attacks works. Don't use Missile if you know they are tying to nail their spike. One thing that the angels can't do, getting high up in the air without becoming helpless.
Yes, they don't jump very high, and their multi jumps don't cover much altitude either. So if we recover high, chances they can't nail us there. Pit can snipe you with arrows, but that's about it. Pittoo can't do that at all. So how to recover: Luigi Cyclone immediately after the knockback tumbling, and then get ready to aim for the ledge or just fast-fall to the stage.
If they don't want to be grabbed, then so be it. Do it the old-school sytle, throwing out attacks without them actually connecting with each other. Luigi without combos is still a legimate threat, see his damage output and invincible U-smash. Even then, you can switch to U-tilt or late N-air to start your combos. Works well for players who don't want to get grabbed often.
I disagree on how Pits like to stay in the air. Maybe it's just me, but their laggy aerials (They come out quick, but they last for days), low multiple jumps, and their falling speed aren't kind to each other at all. I think they can only do 2 aerials without touching the ground again. Unless you got a floaty fall, they won't stay in the air for long, even with 3 midair jumps. Maybe it's just my playsytle, but I think the Pits prefer the ground slightly more, because their ground attacks has better range than their aerials.
They hate Fireballs. Fireballs made Upperdash/Electroshock Arm pretty much useless. You see them do this? Throw a Fireball and let them deflect it. There, they're wide open. PUNISH TIME!
What? They do this in the air? Well, yeah, I know that when they deflect Fireballs, they'll jump a bit upwards, and because of this, they can keep Side-b-ing at one height as long as there is a target they can bounce into. How to counter this? Literally just sit there and when they land, PUNISH TIME!
Oh, and look, a fancy reflector that protects both sides! Well, compared to other reflectors (Especially Falco's, ugh), this one won't do very well reflecting Fireballs, simply because they has some startup and ending lag. So don't worry too much.
Power of Flight is easily interrupted. When you see this coming, simply throw out an aerial. It has no hitbox, so it's safe to edgeguard them. Or if you want to do it stylishly, D-air spike. Even if you don't kill them afterwards, some damage bonus! Or if you are a boss, jumpless Cyclone and let them fall, then spike them afterwards (Lol, anyone get it? THAT match!).
Fireballs stops arrows, so you may want to keep cancelling arrows to force them to approach. Their range is quite absurd for half sword wielder (Even when they combine them, they still grab the bow in the middle. Oddly enough, they got a range that rivals Link's Master Sword >_>), and you definitely don't want to get caught in that F10 F-smash (The fastest in the game). But for general, they can't break your combos, and if you can keep punching them, they are at your mercy.
Remember, like a lot of the cast do, they hate Fireballs. Use them a lot here, like in other MUs.
Oh wait, I forgot this is the Q&A thread. I suggest we move our discussion to the Matchup thread.
I think simply Cyclone up high, then air dodge their attacks works. Don't use Missile if you know they are tying to nail their spike. One thing that the angels can't do, getting high up in the air without becoming helpless.
Yes, they don't jump very high, and their multi jumps don't cover much altitude either. So if we recover high, chances they can't nail us there. Pit can snipe you with arrows, but that's about it. Pittoo can't do that at all. So how to recover: Luigi Cyclone immediately after the knockback tumbling, and then get ready to aim for the ledge or just fast-fall to the stage.
If they don't want to be grabbed, then so be it. Do it the old-school sytle, throwing out attacks without them actually connecting with each other. Luigi without combos is still a legimate threat, see his damage output and invincible U-smash. Even then, you can switch to U-tilt or late N-air to start your combos. Works well for players who don't want to get grabbed often.
I disagree on how Pits like to stay in the air. Maybe it's just me, but their laggy aerials (They come out quick, but they last for days), low multiple jumps, and their falling speed aren't kind to each other at all. I think they can only do 2 aerials without touching the ground again. Unless you got a floaty fall, they won't stay in the air for long, even with 3 midair jumps. Maybe it's just my playsytle, but I think the Pits prefer the ground slightly more, because their ground attacks has better range than their aerials.
They hate Fireballs. Fireballs made Upperdash/Electroshock Arm pretty much useless. You see them do this? Throw a Fireball and let them deflect it. There, they're wide open. PUNISH TIME!
What? They do this in the air? Well, yeah, I know that when they deflect Fireballs, they'll jump a bit upwards, and because of this, they can keep Side-b-ing at one height as long as there is a target they can bounce into. How to counter this? Literally just sit there and when they land, PUNISH TIME!
Oh, and look, a fancy reflector that protects both sides! Well, compared to other reflectors (Especially Falco's, ugh), this one won't do very well reflecting Fireballs, simply because they has some startup and ending lag. So don't worry too much.
Power of Flight is easily interrupted. When you see this coming, simply throw out an aerial. It has no hitbox, so it's safe to edgeguard them. Or if you want to do it stylishly, D-air spike. Even if you don't kill them afterwards, some damage bonus! Or if you are a boss, jumpless Cyclone and let them fall, then spike them afterwards (Lol, anyone get it? THAT match!).
Fireballs stops arrows, so you may want to keep cancelling arrows to force them to approach. Their range is quite absurd for half sword wielder (Even when they combine them, they still grab the bow in the middle. Oddly enough, they got a range that rivals Link's Master Sword >_>), and you definitely don't want to get caught in that F10 F-smash (The fastest in the game). But for general, they can't break your combos, and if you can keep punching them, they are at your mercy.
Remember, like a lot of the cast do, they hate Fireballs. Use them a lot here, like in other MUs.
Oh wait, I forgot this is the Q&A thread. I suggest we move our discussion to the Matchup thread.
"Simply can be easily edgeguarded doesn't mean insta 7-3." Off stage headbutt is an instant death, not easily edge guard-able. It's pretty much guaranteed with how well the pits can go off stage and recover. Also the issue with headbutt is that it leaves luigi vulnerable after it's execution and pit has the tools to go off the stage, have a cup of tea, hit you, and be back for dinner. The same applies, though not as prominent, to down b. Recovering low? Drop down bair for a possible stage spike, skipping the ledge predicting the edge-guard, on stage up smash, or he could use his second jump to bair you. And there is no reason for him not to. Also pits down d has a wind box that could also gimp luigi.
"I think simply Cyclone up high, then air dodge their attacks works." But that's what pits want, so that they can frame trap you. If he hits you, you'll go farther than you did before you started recovering and may be forced to side b, then headbutt, then die.
"Yes, they don't jump very high, and their multi jumps don't cover much altitude either." Full hop, bait the dodge, short hop up air, or hop away bair. They don't have to jump high because you'll drop down and have to guess where they're going to do or not going to do.
"Do it the old-school sytle, throwing out attacks without them actually connecting with each other." But pit has more range and moves like short hop fair, f tilt, jab confirm, d tilt, hop nair, and back hop dair to stop the approach. Up tilt, up smash (up tilt covers the hit box that up smash does not), hop fair, hop nair, and back, spike (can combo into up air off the bounce), and front dair to anti air. Whiff an attack on ground, f tilt, charge a smash, f smash. Personally for rolls i short hop and react with bairs, but pits down air and smash or more effective behind him.
"Even then, you can switch to U-tilt or late N-air to start your combos. Works well for players who don't want to get grabbed often." With pits multi jumps I don't know why he would be getting hit by a u tilit or and up smash. By then you woul've been hit with a back dair which has horizontal range and will hit luigi in the front where his up tilit and smash are least effective. Also you run the risk of getting bair'd on whiff or a fast fall punish.
"Luigi without combos is still a legitimate threat, see his damage output and invincible U-smash." I believe up b is his invincible move. I think he's suppose to the only of the mario brothers that doesn't have invul up smash. Great hit box though. Personally as pit i like to roll behind people a lot to set up f smash punishes, but luigi is one of the hardest to do it to because of his up smash.
"I disagree on how Pits like to stay in the air. " During the first hop of a pit, people tend to commit to something, so you have one jump to bait and a follow-up jump/fast falls for punishes. Besides baiting, pit can use short hop aerials and move forward or back depending on where the opponent is to apply safe pressure and to keep the opponent out. This more for dark pit because he tends to lose the fireball war.
"They hate Fireballs." Not luigi's. The don't go full screen, can be easily hopped over with an aerial for a punish, if close enough, pit can go through the fireball and you, the reflector racks up damage quick (i hit a link for ~20 with one of HIS arrows), and even luigi does hit it, I believe it's negative on it.
"Power of Flight is easily interrupted." But then pit can just do it again, and again, until he's one the edge. Or he can use a jump/di so that he hits the edge at an angle, jump with a dodge, and last but not least, side b snap to the ledge, which luigi can't really do anything about. Try and stop it, you'll get hit because luigi doesn't have air throws, if you don't contest it pit gets back on the ledge. One or another side be will get him on the ledge. As far as spikes, I've seen many a pit come back from being spiked. Can't say the same for luigi.
I'm not saying that luigi players should unplug and go home when they have a pit player in their pools. And as far edge-guarding not meaning a bad match, i totally agree, and even argued that for little mac in a little mac vs luigi thread, but that was because people were ignoring that fact that mac beat luigi on stage, and even had answers for an airborne luigi. But pit beats luigi in air, on stage, and off stage. Pit only starts losing when he gets grabbed. He has more range, his multiple jumps allow him to bair, frame traps galore, amazing edge guard sets ups; and it's not even the sets ups that's good, it's that there's no risk to guarding luigi because if he's not in recovery his options are to dodge.
Pits just have safe options against everything that it luigi. And a great punish game if luigi gets desperate.
"I think simply Cyclone up high, then air dodge their attacks works." But that's what pits want, so that they can frame trap you. If he hits you, you'll go farther than you did before you started recovering and may be forced to side b, then headbutt, then die.
"Yes, they don't jump very high, and their multi jumps don't cover much altitude either." Full hop, bait the dodge, short hop up air, or hop away bair. They don't have to jump high because you'll drop down and have to guess where they're going to do or not going to do.
"Do it the old-school sytle, throwing out attacks without them actually connecting with each other." But pit has more range and moves like short hop fair, f tilt, jab confirm, d tilt, hop nair, and back hop dair to stop the approach. Up tilt, up smash (up tilt covers the hit box that up smash does not), hop fair, hop nair, and back, spike (can combo into up air off the bounce), and front dair to anti air. Whiff an attack on ground, f tilt, charge a smash, f smash. Personally for rolls i short hop and react with bairs, but pits down air and smash or more effective behind him.
"Even then, you can switch to U-tilt or late N-air to start your combos. Works well for players who don't want to get grabbed often." With pits multi jumps I don't know why he would be getting hit by a u tilit or and up smash. By then you woul've been hit with a back dair which has horizontal range and will hit luigi in the front where his up tilit and smash are least effective. Also you run the risk of getting bair'd on whiff or a fast fall punish.
"Luigi without combos is still a legitimate threat, see his damage output and invincible U-smash." I believe up b is his invincible move. I think he's suppose to the only of the mario brothers that doesn't have invul up smash. Great hit box though. Personally as pit i like to roll behind people a lot to set up f smash punishes, but luigi is one of the hardest to do it to because of his up smash.
"I disagree on how Pits like to stay in the air. " During the first hop of a pit, people tend to commit to something, so you have one jump to bait and a follow-up jump/fast falls for punishes. Besides baiting, pit can use short hop aerials and move forward or back depending on where the opponent is to apply safe pressure and to keep the opponent out. This more for dark pit because he tends to lose the fireball war.
"They hate Fireballs." Not luigi's. The don't go full screen, can be easily hopped over with an aerial for a punish, if close enough, pit can go through the fireball and you, the reflector racks up damage quick (i hit a link for ~20 with one of HIS arrows), and even luigi does hit it, I believe it's negative on it.
"Power of Flight is easily interrupted." But then pit can just do it again, and again, until he's one the edge. Or he can use a jump/di so that he hits the edge at an angle, jump with a dodge, and last but not least, side b snap to the ledge, which luigi can't really do anything about. Try and stop it, you'll get hit because luigi doesn't have air throws, if you don't contest it pit gets back on the ledge. One or another side be will get him on the ledge. As far as spikes, I've seen many a pit come back from being spiked. Can't say the same for luigi.
I'm not saying that luigi players should unplug and go home when they have a pit player in their pools. And as far edge-guarding not meaning a bad match, i totally agree, and even argued that for little mac in a little mac vs luigi thread, but that was because people were ignoring that fact that mac beat luigi on stage, and even had answers for an airborne luigi. But pit beats luigi in air, on stage, and off stage. Pit only starts losing when he gets grabbed. He has more range, his multiple jumps allow him to bair, frame traps galore, amazing edge guard sets ups; and it's not even the sets ups that's good, it's that there's no risk to guarding luigi because if he's not in recovery his options are to dodge.
Pits just have safe options against everything that it luigi. And a great punish game if luigi gets desperate.
TriTails
Smash Lord
What?
I think you are lost by the incorrect impressions that Luigi cannot recover from a spike. And also, there is a reason Pit shouldn't gimp Luigi as freely as he can gimp a Rosalina, and that is Luigi Cyclone disjointed (Yes, I do believe so) hitboxes.
If you are recovering high, aim for the ledge by fast falling. Sure, Pit may try to punish the landing. Just try to work your way down with N-air, D-air, or Luigi Cyclone. Or just Green Missile to above ledge, fastfall, airdodge their attempts to gimp, then SJP to save your life.
Luigi's head has a partial invincibility in U-smash. Go ahead and try it.
Luigi's Fireballs float, and can be fired at the pace of a racing car. They'll hate it, trust me. Everybody do. They hopping them = Asking for SH Fireballs. They SH their aerials = Asking for a punish in the landing lag.
You act like Pit does not have any end lag. I do believe he has some landing lag in his aerials. So he whiffs an SH aerial = Free punish. Nope, one rule when playing Luigi, do not let them outspace you. Let THEM approach you, not you approaching them. Fireball or shield their attempt to arrow then go ham when they charge in. Pit's attacks has some to lot of end lag, so he commits something and they miss, a punish.
If you keep slapping Pit out of his PoF, then it's positive for you. Nope, you don't gimp them outright, but you keep bruising them and then destroy them onstage later with their already damaged percentage.
If he is planning for a Upperdash/Electroshock snap, Fireballs their attempts to get in the right position
. And if they midair jump to airdodge, they'll lose altitude, forced to recover low with PoF, and then we can do our thing.
His options ain't 'safe'. He may have much more range, but he does not have the low end lag or attack speed Luigi's normals have (F-smash is really fast, yet, it's safe on (perfect) shield). If he keeps throwing out SH aerials, I don't think that is going to get him anywhere. I do believe the landing lag aren't kind to him.
And I still need to know why LM beats Luigi. He MAY beat Luigi, but not by much. He doesn't destroy Luigi onstage if Luigi are playing it right with spotdodges/shield (Because believe me, not every of Mac's attacks sends Luigi sliding to the moon)/rolls. Again, he may beat Luigi, but I don't think he counters Luigi 'hard'.
But I'm the one to talk. I lost to a LM just now. Yeah, I agree on how he is dangerous with thatbroken F-tilt and uber broken super armored smashes. Maybe some other Luigi mains can help me out in this? Can anyone enlighten me on how to beat competent LM, or how he beats Luigi?
I think you are lost by the incorrect impressions that Luigi cannot recover from a spike. And also, there is a reason Pit shouldn't gimp Luigi as freely as he can gimp a Rosalina, and that is Luigi Cyclone disjointed (Yes, I do believe so) hitboxes.
If you are recovering high, aim for the ledge by fast falling. Sure, Pit may try to punish the landing. Just try to work your way down with N-air, D-air, or Luigi Cyclone. Or just Green Missile to above ledge, fastfall, airdodge their attempts to gimp, then SJP to save your life.
Luigi's head has a partial invincibility in U-smash. Go ahead and try it.
Luigi's Fireballs float, and can be fired at the pace of a racing car. They'll hate it, trust me. Everybody do. They hopping them = Asking for SH Fireballs. They SH their aerials = Asking for a punish in the landing lag.
You act like Pit does not have any end lag. I do believe he has some landing lag in his aerials. So he whiffs an SH aerial = Free punish. Nope, one rule when playing Luigi, do not let them outspace you. Let THEM approach you, not you approaching them. Fireball or shield their attempt to arrow then go ham when they charge in. Pit's attacks has some to lot of end lag, so he commits something and they miss, a punish.
If you keep slapping Pit out of his PoF, then it's positive for you. Nope, you don't gimp them outright, but you keep bruising them and then destroy them onstage later with their already damaged percentage.
If he is planning for a Upperdash/Electroshock snap, Fireballs their attempts to get in the right position
. And if they midair jump to airdodge, they'll lose altitude, forced to recover low with PoF, and then we can do our thing.His options ain't 'safe'. He may have much more range, but he does not have the low end lag or attack speed Luigi's normals have (F-smash is really fast, yet, it's safe on (perfect) shield). If he keeps throwing out SH aerials, I don't think that is going to get him anywhere. I do believe the landing lag aren't kind to him.
And I still need to know why LM beats Luigi. He MAY beat Luigi, but not by much. He doesn't destroy Luigi onstage if Luigi are playing it right with spotdodges/shield (Because believe me, not every of Mac's attacks sends Luigi sliding to the moon)/rolls. Again, he may beat Luigi, but I don't think he counters Luigi 'hard'.
But I'm the one to talk. I lost to a LM just now. Yeah, I agree on how he is dangerous with that
Luigi can recover from a spike, preferably with a down b mash, but all pit has to do is drop down from the ledge and re-spike. My argument is simply that after all of the "he can do this, and you can do that in response", pit wins. Because he has more options available to him.
The problem with little mac is that you can't win on the ground. Smart macs aren't going to give you a grab punish, and the only way I've beaten a smart mac was by walking away then whiff punishing his f smash with luigi's f smash, but I've never been able to replicate it, and it's also much harder to do against a f tilt.
The problem with little mac is that you can't win on the ground. Smart macs aren't going to give you a grab punish, and the only way I've beaten a smart mac was by walking away then whiff punishing his f smash with luigi's f smash, but I've never been able to replicate it, and it's also much harder to do against a f tilt.
TriTails
Smash Lord
Hey, Cyclone can be controlled. And spiking was never an easy thing for Pit. I had problem landing it like, a lot. Like, where the hell is the sweetspot. I want to spike my opponents but instead I rocket them UPWARDS!?
Assuming the Pit player is good at landing spike though, we can try to NOT charge the Green Missile ll the way through. So we don't end up if front of him, but just a lightly charged Missile that sends us a reasonable distane from the ledge. Pit ain't Jiggly or Yoshi with their plane airspeed, and PoF isn't a guaranteed ledge grab (Yes, it isn't. This is noticeable especially when recovering diagonally). So if we manage to keep our distance, we can Cyclone up and control where are we going (Though, this is undeniably hard with Luigi's air speed), then save ourselves with a Jump Punch.
Or if they teleghraphs their spiking so hard, do a normal double jump then SJP and use the invincibility to ignore thrie D-air and snap back to the ledge.
Eh, can anyone test if spotdodge can dodge LM's F-tilt? So far, his only lingering hitboxes are F-tilt, 'hold the A button' jabs, and D-tilt. I think all of them gets beaten by Cyclone, but just want to make sure. His super armored smashes are certainly a problem. We'll need to either spotdodge (Assuming we don't get predictable with it and he charges his attacks) or perfect shield. Grabs beat super armors, but.... those stupidly fast yet poweful attacks...
Maybe.... ROLLING!?
Assuming the Pit player is good at landing spike though, we can try to NOT charge the Green Missile ll the way through. So we don't end up if front of him, but just a lightly charged Missile that sends us a reasonable distane from the ledge. Pit ain't Jiggly or Yoshi with their plane airspeed, and PoF isn't a guaranteed ledge grab (Yes, it isn't. This is noticeable especially when recovering diagonally). So if we manage to keep our distance, we can Cyclone up and control where are we going (Though, this is undeniably hard with Luigi's air speed), then save ourselves with a Jump Punch.
Or if they teleghraphs their spiking so hard, do a normal double jump then SJP and use the invincibility to ignore thrie D-air and snap back to the ledge.
Eh, can anyone test if spotdodge can dodge LM's F-tilt? So far, his only lingering hitboxes are F-tilt, 'hold the A button' jabs, and D-tilt. I think all of them gets beaten by Cyclone, but just want to make sure. His super armored smashes are certainly a problem. We'll need to either spotdodge (Assuming we don't get predictable with it and he charges his attacks) or perfect shield. Grabs beat super armors, but.... those stupidly fast yet poweful attacks...
Maybe.... ROLLING!?
Pit doesn't need to spike sweet spot, sending luigi flying to where he needs to headbutt is more than enough. It doesn't matter if you do a light headbutt or full headbutt, the only variable that matters when luigi is recovering vs pit is if can pit get to where you are while you're in lag. Most characters have to be humble when edge guarding because they might not make it back, at worst pit can gimp you, then PoF at an angle just to ensure that you die first, he doesn't even after to make it back on your last stock, meaning he can go nuts and the up b to stall to take your last stock. Yeah it's possible to gimp PoF, it's possible to catch a humming bird on speed too, but it's not easy. One of the reason I say it's a bad match up is because it's night and day how much EASIER, not impossible, it is to gimp luigi with pit than it is the other way around. Pits best way of getting kills is frame trapping, so if you're airborne, that's where he wants you.
At the end of the day, pit has more options to gimp luigi than luigi has to gimp pit, pit's multiple jumps allow him more options to bait/punish, he out ranges luigi, has armor to react to fire balls (at certain ranges), and other committed moves, they may not be as fast or recover as quick, but all of his aerial out-range luigi's (even dair), the only thing luigi has going for him is kill power, which is lessened because pit will hop to take away the grab option and out range his attacks to LESSEN the threat of luigi's attacks. Also Luigi being luigi makes it harder, not impossible, to punish things that other characters could punish pit for doing.
Yes it's true that pits will whiff aerials or other moves and get wrecked, they'll miss the ledge, some will be predictable with their recovery, they will miss inputs, or make hard reads that make them do something unsafe on shield leading to a punished (blocked side b = free up b), and nair is amazing, but match ups are to assume they'll never miss or do something unsafe on block, if electro is super jump punishable, then they'll only side b when it's guaranteed, if they nair is so good, they'll bait or just aerial luigi above the nair hit box. For the sake of comparison we are to assume the two players fighter are of equal and max skill.
Luigi has options, and to win he should use them to the fullest, but it's just not in his favor, and because almost nothing is in his favor, I believe the match to be 7-3. In short, luigi gets gimped easily, out-ranged, pit has many options to get luigi off stage, he can get away with some unsafe moves (allow him to go for more reads), and he can just camp, and if luigi over commits, he's dead, off stage or in a frame trap set up. Have you seen the two sets of Nairo vs Boss? Pit keeps him out, luigi gets in gets some damage, gets knocked off and the match really begins. Nario spiked him, boss down b'd, and nario spiked him again.
I believe you can spot dodge f tilt from mac, i think it may be space dependent depending on the duration of the dodge (you may only be able to dodge parts of the move) I believe I've dodged it in the past, I just don't anymore because you can't really do anything afterwards because he's try to confirm you into a jab combo. He'd probably be toast if you were within throw range when you dodged, I doubt it, I've never been able to get that close to him without getting jabbed or killed. I've ducked under the last hit before (or if whiffed before i crawled into it), but maybe crawling may be the answer for his high hitting moves, allowing to get in... If that's even a good thing.
At the end of the day, pit has more options to gimp luigi than luigi has to gimp pit, pit's multiple jumps allow him more options to bait/punish, he out ranges luigi, has armor to react to fire balls (at certain ranges), and other committed moves, they may not be as fast or recover as quick, but all of his aerial out-range luigi's (even dair), the only thing luigi has going for him is kill power, which is lessened because pit will hop to take away the grab option and out range his attacks to LESSEN the threat of luigi's attacks. Also Luigi being luigi makes it harder, not impossible, to punish things that other characters could punish pit for doing.
Yes it's true that pits will whiff aerials or other moves and get wrecked, they'll miss the ledge, some will be predictable with their recovery, they will miss inputs, or make hard reads that make them do something unsafe on shield leading to a punished (blocked side b = free up b), and nair is amazing, but match ups are to assume they'll never miss or do something unsafe on block, if electro is super jump punishable, then they'll only side b when it's guaranteed, if they nair is so good, they'll bait or just aerial luigi above the nair hit box. For the sake of comparison we are to assume the two players fighter are of equal and max skill.
Luigi has options, and to win he should use them to the fullest, but it's just not in his favor, and because almost nothing is in his favor, I believe the match to be 7-3. In short, luigi gets gimped easily, out-ranged, pit has many options to get luigi off stage, he can get away with some unsafe moves (allow him to go for more reads), and he can just camp, and if luigi over commits, he's dead, off stage or in a frame trap set up. Have you seen the two sets of Nairo vs Boss? Pit keeps him out, luigi gets in gets some damage, gets knocked off and the match really begins. Nario spiked him, boss down b'd, and nario spiked him again.
I believe you can spot dodge f tilt from mac, i think it may be space dependent depending on the duration of the dodge (you may only be able to dodge parts of the move) I believe I've dodged it in the past, I just don't anymore because you can't really do anything afterwards because he's try to confirm you into a jab combo. He'd probably be toast if you were within throw range when you dodged, I doubt it, I've never been able to get that close to him without getting jabbed or killed. I've ducked under the last hit before (or if whiffed before i crawled into it), but maybe crawling may be the answer for his high hitting moves, allowing to get in... If that's even a good thing.
Jonarobin
Smash Apprentice
So how does the Luigi Cyclone work? I've experimented a few times as Luigi for fun lately and he seems really solid, but I am quite confused on how the Luigi Cyclone works... Someone on FG playing as Luigi killed me with a rising Luigi cyclone...
My question is, how do you make his cyclone rise and is there anything else I should know about it?
also how viable is Luigi Cyclone for recovering?
Thanks!
My question is, how do you make his cyclone rise and is there anything else I should know about it?
also how viable is Luigi Cyclone for recovering?
Thanks!
TriTails
Smash Lord
You need to mash the button in order to rise.
Use a double jump then immediately Cyclone and start mashing.
Though, it's possible to do a Jumpless Cyclone, but it requires some insane mashing ability that all you see in your controller would be green fire (12 times a second, and not literally BTW
).
Luigi Cyclone is pretty vital for recovering Luigis, since it covers higher vertical distance than SJP as well as giving him pretty neat extra horizontal distance. The end lag though... Don't use this if you don't need to. Most of the time, Missile -> DJ -> SJP is enough.
Use a double jump then immediately Cyclone and start mashing.
Though, it's possible to do a Jumpless Cyclone, but it requires some insane mashing ability that all you see in your controller would be green fire (12 times a second, and not literally BTW
).Luigi Cyclone is pretty vital for recovering Luigis, since it covers higher vertical distance than SJP as well as giving him pretty neat extra horizontal distance. The end lag though... Don't use this if you don't need to. Most of the time, Missile -> DJ -> SJP is enough.
1PokeMastr
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2009
- Messages
- 2,251
Was their name Estabon ?
ThunderSt0rm
Smash Champion
http://smashboards.com/threads/dthrow-cyclone-video.384079/
That should help a bit with the first secrion of your post.
MintChipper
Smash Journeyman
What should I land with when using Luigi? I mainly use nair and cyclone but I wanna learn even more possibilities since landing is not my strong suit.
Fair can trip opponents on the ground at low percents (not a bad lead in) and Bair has awesome range (nice for defensive air maneuvers). Uairs have some use against the taller kids, but it's risky
MintChipper
Smash Journeyman
Thank you