The Lucario Video and Critique Thread

Konrad-QD

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Aug 20, 2012
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396
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Akron, Ohio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fR56dgfP7E

This is game 3 from my first ever victory over a power ranked player in my region. BARELY won this set as you will see if you watch it.

Comments would be most appreciated!



Hi Karnu! I will give you some feedback on your matches. I don't think the set vs the mk player is worth commentating because he doesn't really pose a challenge. He basically dsmash spams. Still, your use of bair was interesting for spacing. Just be careful you don't become predictable because a good player can use your bair as an opportunity to cross you up (roll behind you for example).

VS wario:
1:00 up through this point you're playing pretty well! You're mixing up your double jumps vs single jumps. You're mixing up your landings well also. From experience I can tell you that pivot grabs are useful in this matchup. Wario has the tools to punish your fsmashes really hard because he can approach above it really fast (and on reaction). But pivot grabs can be safer zoning tools in that situation since long range attacks are the only thing that really punish pivot grabs and wario doesn't really have those.

1:27 notice how you are being punished for fsmash attempt which leads directly to: 1:36 THE WAFT ok lets talk about this situation and how to recover safely

In order for you to be hit by the waft wario has to be directly below you or right on top of you when you are vulnerable (not doing a dair or some move that has a hit box that will protect you from the waft or airdodging through the waft) In this case you made the job easy for wario because you used your double jump early which limits your options significantly and puts you in a position that lets wario get below you easily. So your first mistake in my opinion is using the double jump early (By the way you made that same mistake a little earlier which let wario put you in the up air/fsmash frame trap at 1:29 when you use your double jump) You also just sort of drift towards the ledge in a very predictable manner without fast falling, wave bouncing, dairing ( to stall and thereby make your opponent mispace their edge guard attempts).

1:45 I understand that you want to pressure wario and remain safe but you look really predictable jumping and Bairing 5 times in a row. Theres other stuff you could do to be less obvious. In general the best platform pressure move that lucario has is the nair because you can shield poke if they don't tilt their shield correctly (and you're right below them). also it can push them off the platform which sets up very well for an fsmash or other combo if they don't tech the landing ( and many characters can't tech like snake/mk on battlefield platforms). You can also mix it up with aura spheres or you can fake them out with an aura sphere pretending to shoot it, land on the platform and grab them! That's my favorite thing to do :) Anyway what you're doing isn't wrong just I think you could do other things in addition to what you are already doing.

2:50 You have a big ass aura sphere charged and your opponent knows this. I think you could mind game better in this situation because you KNOW they can shield on reaction unless they've committed to some laggy option which a good wario will not do. SOOOO what you should do in my opinion is flash the ASC in the air as though you were going to land and shoot it and then dash grab. Its a really powerful mind game that lucario has. If you want to see what I mean check out Trela vs NIKE money match set game 1 last stock. Another example is Azen vs Chillin Game 3 - pretty much all the grabs azen gets on chillin result from the mind game I just described.

At the very least don't just shoot it out the way you did - maybe try to shoot it after a crossup or if you're reading a jump or something that will make the wario feel pressured.

3:03 I think you need help figuring out what to do off the ledge. Lucario's ledge attack below 100 is really good! BUT that is exactly why good players will predict it because they know its good and that a lucario will tend to overuse it. SO lets discuss some other options: when your opponent is edge guarding you at a close distance the way this wario was edge guarding you then you want to prove to them that it isn't safe for them to be so close to the ledge. The most common way to do this is to do ledge drop + DJ fair + dair because that puts a lot of pressure on their shield and has a better chance of hitting than a regular ledge attack and unless they have some insanely quick OOS option they are not going to be able to hit you between the fair and dair. Now if you think they are shielding and expecting some attack you can also just jump over them retaining your double jump (ledge jump lets you retain double jump) which then gives you many options for landing at center stage with a good position. You can also shark with up air without getting off the ledge, or shoot aura spheres and still get back to the ledge. Finally you can B pivot off the ledge and catch him in an ASC (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enyQxDK3d5g around 7:00 for what I am talking about).

Anyway again you get wafted after this ledge guard. At 3:05 you use your DJ early. At this point I am starting to believe this is your biggest bad habit in general. DJ is something you don't want to use lightly as lucario. Use it as a last resort. Here he traps you with fsmash and doesn't even let you get your DJ back which puts you in a terrible position BECAUSE you have to up B. BUT you still could try to mind game him with DAIR stalls since the platform was coming and you could have tried to up B the platform or the ledge whichever he was not guarding. (It is much harder to waft lucario's up B moving frames than the start up!)

4:15 From this point on its more of the same. You ALWAYS DJ early and wario ALWAYS punishes you with a frame trap. Your bair attempts when wario is on a platform look very futile :( you need more options for that situation. 4:36 You forced yourself to air dodge by charging the aura sphere which basically gives wario a free waft. All he needs to do is punish the air dodge with waft and you're dead. SO in general never do that!

GAME 2:

5:40!!!!!! SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T USE YOUR DOUBLE JUMP RIGHT AWAY!!! yaaaay

you could have followed up your fair with an air dodge + pivot grab possibly but its still good that you didn't get edge guarded.

6:40 you still look like you're playing scared though, you air dodge in easily punishable ways (which leads to wario killing you first stock) and when you want to kill wario you kind of just fish with Bair and fsmash. Wario just shields and punishes you every time. I think in general you need to develop your grab game more! When you normally would fsmash think (dash grab!) and stuff like that. PIVOT GRABS would also help you.
7:48 Again you use ledge attack (this time over 100) which is not the best idea - makes me think this also is a bad habit. Also before this happened you got punished for doing your bair walls very frequently. Its really easy for wario to get under you when he reads your bair so just be careful with that.
8:35!!! YES I LOVE THIS OPTION IT ALMOST ALWAYS HITS - this is a much better idea than ledge attack! good job.
9:24 you got wafted for bairing predictably
10:25 That was actually a really nice waft on wario's part - not easy to pull off at all! BUT you could have gone for the ledge cling (which you should have anyway because wario also could have ledge hogged you!)

Overall pretty nice lucario! I think you need to develop some aspects of your game:
1 don't overuse double jump especially early when you're being ledge guarded!
2 don't overuse bair, at least space it in different ways ( retreating bair, crossup bair, ) You can also fast fall the bair and up tilt really fast or grab which can be surprising.
3 fast fall air dodge more - you tend to air dodge in a slow and punishable manner
4 learn more lucario ATs - I notice you know how to b reverse but you don't wave bounce or B pivot much and that could help you make your character much more mobile!
5 grab more!!! (PIVOT GRABS !)

I hope this helps!

~QD
 

Karnu

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Karnuu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fR56dgfP7E

This is game 3 from my first ever victory over a power ranked player in my region. BARELY won this set as you will see if you watch it.

Comments would be most appreciated!



Hi Karnu! I will give you some feedback on your matches. I don't think the set vs the mk player is worth commentating because he doesn't really pose a challenge. He basically dsmash spams. Still, your use of bair was interesting for spacing. Just be careful you don't become predictable because a good player can use your bair as an opportunity to cross you up (roll behind you for example).

VS wario:
1:00 up through this point you're playing pretty well! You're mixing up your double jumps vs single jumps. You're mixing up your landings well also. From experience I can tell you that pivot grabs are useful in this matchup. Wario has the tools to punish your fsmashes really hard because he can approach above it really fast (and on reaction). But pivot grabs can be safer zoning tools in that situation since long range attacks are the only thing that really punish pivot grabs and wario doesn't really have those.

1:27 notice how you are being punished for fsmash attempt which leads directly to: 1:36 THE WAFT ok lets talk about this situation and how to recover safely

In order for you to be hit by the waft wario has to be directly below you or right on top of you when you are vulnerable (not doing a dair or some move that has a hit box that will protect you from the waft or airdodging through the waft) In this case you made the job easy for wario because you used your double jump early which limits your options significantly and puts you in a position that lets wario get below you easily. So your first mistake in my opinion is using the double jump early (By the way you made that same mistake a little earlier which let wario put you in the up air/fsmash frame trap at 1:29 when you use your double jump) You also just sort of drift towards the ledge in a very predictable manner without fast falling, wave bouncing, dairing ( to stall and thereby make your opponent mispace their edge guard attempts).

1:45 I understand that you want to pressure wario and remain safe but you look really predictable jumping and Bairing 5 times in a row. Theres other stuff you could do to be less obvious. In general the best platform pressure move that lucario has is the nair because you can shield poke if they don't tilt their shield correctly (and you're right below them). also it can push them off the platform which sets up very well for an fsmash or other combo if they don't tech the landing ( and many characters can't tech like snake/mk on battlefield platforms). You can also mix it up with aura spheres or you can fake them out with an aura sphere pretending to shoot it, land on the platform and grab them! That's my favorite thing to do :) Anyway what you're doing isn't wrong just I think you could do other things in addition to what you are already doing.

2:50 You have a big *** aura sphere charged and your opponent knows this. I think you could mind game better in this situation because you KNOW they can shield on reaction unless they've committed to some laggy option which a good wario will not do. SOOOO what you should do in my opinion is flash the ASC in the air as though you were going to land and shoot it and then dash grab. Its a really powerful mind game that lucario has. If you want to see what I mean check out Trela vs NIKE money match set game 1 last stock. Another example is Azen vs Chillin Game 3 - pretty much all the grabs azen gets on chillin result from the mind game I just described.

At the very least don't just shoot it out the way you did - maybe try to shoot it after a crossup or if you're reading a jump or something that will make the wario feel pressured.

3:03 I think you need help figuring out what to do off the ledge. Lucario's ledge attack below 100 is really good! BUT that is exactly why good players will predict it because they know its good and that a lucario will tend to overuse it. SO lets discuss some other options: when your opponent is edge guarding you at a close distance the way this wario was edge guarding you then you want to prove to them that it isn't safe for them to be so close to the ledge. The most common way to do this is to do ledge drop + DJ fair + dair because that puts a lot of pressure on their shield and has a better chance of hitting than a regular ledge attack and unless they have some insanely quick OOS option they are not going to be able to hit you between the fair and dair. Now if you think they are shielding and expecting some attack you can also just jump over them retaining your double jump (ledge jump lets you retain double jump) which then gives you many options for landing at center stage with a good position. You can also shark with up air without getting off the ledge, or shoot aura spheres and still get back to the ledge. Finally you can B pivot off the ledge and catch him in an ASC (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enyQxDK3d5g around 7:00 for what I am talking about).

Anyway again you get wafted after this ledge guard. At 3:05 you use your DJ early. At this point I am starting to believe this is your biggest bad habit in general. DJ is something you don't want to use lightly as lucario. Use it as a last resort. Here he traps you with fsmash and doesn't even let you get your DJ back which puts you in a terrible position BECAUSE you have to up B. BUT you still could try to mind game him with DAIR stalls since the platform was coming and you could have tried to up B the platform or the ledge whichever he was not guarding. (It is much harder to waft lucario's up B moving frames than the start up!)

4:15 From this point on its more of the same. You ALWAYS DJ early and wario ALWAYS punishes you with a frame trap. Your bair attempts when wario is on a platform look very futile :( you need more options for that situation. 4:36 You forced yourself to air dodge by charging the aura sphere which basically gives wario a free waft. All he needs to do is punish the air dodge with waft and you're dead. SO in general never do that!

GAME 2:

5:40!!!!!! SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T USE YOUR DOUBLE JUMP RIGHT AWAY!!! yaaaay

you could have followed up your fair with an air dodge + pivot grab possibly but its still good that you didn't get edge guarded.

6:40 you still look like you're playing scared though, you air dodge in easily punishable ways (which leads to wario killing you first stock) and when you want to kill wario you kind of just fish with Bair and fsmash. Wario just shields and punishes you every time. I think in general you need to develop your grab game more! When you normally would fsmash think (dash grab!) and stuff like that. PIVOT GRABS would also help you.
7:48 Again you use ledge attack (this time over 100) which is not the best idea - makes me think this also is a bad habit. Also before this happened you got punished for doing your bair walls very frequently. Its really easy for wario to get under you when he reads your bair so just be careful with that.
8:35!!! YES I LOVE THIS OPTION IT ALMOST ALWAYS HITS - this is a much better idea than ledge attack! good job.
9:24 you got wafted for bairing predictably
10:25 That was actually a really nice waft on wario's part - not easy to pull off at all! BUT you could have gone for the ledge cling (which you should have anyway because wario also could have ledge hogged you!)

Overall pretty nice lucario! I think you need to develop some aspects of your game:
1 don't overuse double jump especially early when you're being ledge guarded!
2 don't overuse bair, at least space it in different ways ( retreating bair, crossup bair, ) You can also fast fall the bair and up tilt really fast or grab which can be surprising.
3 fast fall air dodge more - you tend to air dodge in a slow and punishable manner
4 learn more lucario ATs - I notice you know how to b reverse but you don't wave bounce or B pivot much and that could help you make your character much more mobile!
5 grab more!!! (PIVOT GRABS !)

I hope this helps!

~QD
Thank you so much, this is the critic I'v been hoping for. Didn't come off rude at all and was very professional! Thank you! :)
 

Konrad-QD

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 20, 2012
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Akron, Ohio
Thank you so much, this is the critic I'v been hoping for. Didn't come off rude at all and was very professional! Thank you! :)
I'm glad it was helpful! I look forward to hearing of your success in future matches ;) also I recently discovered another ledge trick trela uses to good effect namely : ledge drop+ dj asc{pretending you are going to shoot it} then AD and dash grab.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Dg3i6R20U around 59 sec is an example. He doesn't grab but you see how there are various things you can do after the ad
 

yessi

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Feb 12, 2013
Messages
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Chonglers
http://youtu.be/aJfBnMtJkFc
this is shuffle V pool match. I faced this guy a few months ago and lost badly so this time I did better. Still need to improve more
Got a few comments on this

You seem to go straight to the ledge in some cases rather than landing on the stage itself. Its not your fault though as you sometimes get knocked horazontally, so theres not too many options. You should SDI up to at least have more landing options (like choosing to land on stage or ledge).

As for different ways of getting on-stage from the ledge, i got nothing. I don't know how to get past his grab. You're better off just landing on stage (ES on ledge when nessesary though). Best option i can think of is getting off the ledge ASAP from seeing what Oli can do.

Edge guard him more with fsmash, like how you got his second stock.

I saw how sometimes you got too aggressive and when you attacked him, he would move away real quick and get you as you tried to hit were he used to be. Just something I noticed.

Oh and is utilt>dsmash a thing now? I just find it funny how that landed every single time you did it :laugh: didn't know you could get away with that
 

Player-1

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http://youtu.be/aJfBnMtJkFc
this is shuffle V pool match. I faced this guy a few months ago and lost badly so this time I did better. Still need to improve more
I think your biggest problem was getting up from the ledge especially above 100, try jumping more from the ledge, jump>air dodge can be good if you jump from ledge as soon as you can cuz your invincibility from the ledge can carry over into your air dodge invincibility if you time it right. Jump> dair too and maybe jump> fair. The one time you jumped from the ledge, you didn't get punished for it, but you just reset yourself in the same position by b reversing into air dodge (2nd stock), next time just try going for the top platform and if you think you're going to get aerialed at that point then you can b reverse. From that position you probably want to land with dair or nair. Dairto trade/clank with his pikmin, against other chars lucario's dair is going to usually win out because of how disjointed it is. Nair to get ride of RCO if you have that going on to the ledge. If you get on the ledge with up-b and have RCO it's usually a bad idea to land drop back from ledge and jump up with air dodge, especially against olimar. Doing it with fair is usually better since you can transition into a FF nair to minimize RCO and it's harder to punish, but against Olimar you usually don't get that opportunity since Olimar is usually going to hang back with grabs, fsmash, etc. out of range from that.

Don't use aura sphere as much against Olimar unless he's in the air (or you're landing into him with it), you did it a lot 2nd stock in neutral and got punished for it. You also wasted a good opportunity at some point in the match where you tried crossing him up with an aura sphere, if you can get behind olimar then that's a huge opportunity for you, in fact, you should probably make it your goal to look for opportunities that let you cross up olimar safely. Olimar has 2 good OoS options: grab and usmash and his grab doesn't have armor on it. His rolls are bad, I'm not sure if his spotdodge has average frame data on it or not, but I feel like it's pretty easy to punish. If you get behind Olimar then his only good OoS option is usmash since that eliminates a grab OoS and then you can just pressure his shield with spaced attacks so you don't get hit by usmash until he panics and spotdodges or tries use his [bad] roll to roll away. Jabs and grabs are good, but also Dtilt is good if you read a spotdodge or shield drop because you want olimar in the air and dtilt puts him at a really good position for lucario to take advantage of. Dtilt is also good to do that when he's air dodging into you, like from the ledge for example, but that situation didn't really appear that often in the match.
 

Zackk

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Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Messages
4
What kind of critique you want? I mean do you want specific critcisms or general habits that you have? Do you want to get good in general or do you want to beat this specific player?
Trying to get better overall so if yeah if you could call out my bad habits or suggest things to integrate into my gameplay. Thanks
 

Konrad-QD

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Messages
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Akron, Ohio
Trying to get better overall so if yeah if you could call out my bad habits or suggest things to integrate into my gameplay. Thanks
Critique of Zack Lucario

Let me begin with some disclaimers. Please do not be offended by anything I say. I don’t mean to insult or demean your playstyle. I understand it is a friendly and that your decisions don’t always reflect your best. Also, I am not the best lucario in the world so it is possible I might say something that is misleading, so make sure if you disagree with something that you ask around for better solutions/ideas.

Now let’s think about the DDD matchup:

DDD’s general gameplan: shield lucario’s laggy moves to get a grab. Chain grab to build damage and get to an edge guarding position. Kill lucario early with edge guards or up tilt (or smash if you can go for a hard read).

Based on what I outlined above you should realize as lucario that you need to avoid grabs as much as possible, identify his kill moves (bair, fair, up tilt), and read his shield-oriented approaches.

With that in mind lets go to the critique:

0:14 You did the same movement twice and got grabbed for it. Lucario has slow movement in the air and not the best agility (ability to change momentum over time). Jumping forward is therefore inherently risky if your opponent is in position to trap your landing (in this case just by moving forward). You can try to wave bounce ( or b reverse) to help with this problem. But in general commit to a forward jump only if you want to approach DDD. If you want to bait, just jump straight up because you have more options. Also you should, in general, try to fast fall all your landings and air dodges to the ground.

0:18 I’m going to note every time you are thrown off stage and react by jump + air dodge. If this is read you can get heavily punished because DDD can hit you offstage again and you will not retain your jump. You will therefore have to use your up B and may get gimped. This time you don’t get punished but I still want to keep track of it because a good player will catch on to this habit if you do have it.

0:22 Did you mean utilt? I recommend grabbing in this scenario because DDD will almost always have the habit of shielding during his approach. Even if he spot dodges your grab you can usually either jab to punish the spot dodge or roll away. If you think he will spot dodge you can just run up and wait for him to do so. That risks DDD’s grab but very rarely will the DDD expect you to just run up and wait. By running up and waiting you are putting the pressure on him psychologically to do something. Up smash did cover his spot dodge, but you can cover it in safer ways. In this case, even though you hit him for 9 % he was still able to recover and grab you before your lag was over.

0:28 Jump+ air dodge 2/2

0:34 jab jab + side B is an ok option but players that know the lucario matchup will DI away from the jab or down and spot dodge the side B. Meaning, that is not a very safe option. It would be safer if you just jab jab + grab. At this percent ( DDD at <50) grab is also more rewarding. You can dthrow + bair/dair frame trap him. You can dthrow + fair string. You can uthrow + utilt or pivot grab. If you do get the side B to connect, the best follow ups are usually fair + fast fall nair. Because your opponent correctly DIs away from you, you can, in this case follow up with dash grab or roll + pivot grab.

0:41 You do some bad lucario things here. Roll + fsmash is kind of the quintessential bad lucario thing to do. Every good player is looking to punish this. All he has to do is run up, power shield, and grab. In this case you didn’t get punished for it, but trust me that it is a bad habit. Ftilt is better because it is much safer on shield ( 2 hits and less ending lag). Charging aura sphere is also a decent idea because you can cancel it and jump at any instant. That makes your movement more unpredictable.

0:50 The way you approached DDD was unsafe. Also dsmash is unsafe. He rolled away but could have grabbed you. Try to space nair so that it hits DDD and then pushes him away from you. Don’t nair into him but nair away from him.

1:02 You are rolling a lot. In many of these instances you are giving up pressure that you created by landing in front of DDD out of his grab range. Use that pressure to bait something out of him and punish him. Instead you roll away and reset the advantage that you just gained.

1:05 DDD is looking to utilt you. You can tell because he’s fishing with that move probably trying to punish a potential roll.

1:09 Jump + air dodge 3/3…

1:18 Notice how ineffective rolling + fsmashing is

1:22 You are dairing many times in a row. It seems to me that you just want to hit DDD with anything and fsmash is not working so you are switching to dair. Dair is unsafe on shield – ddd can just utilt you on reaction or grab you as in this instance. You need to space this move better and not do multiple dairs on ddds shield UNLESS you try to footstool him. You should also learn how to fast fall + side B to punish a shielding opponent in that case. See: http://youtu.be/rvc2HV1oAFE?t=12m16s as an example of what I mean.

1:35 you need more ideas of how to come off the ledge. Try jumping onto the stage while charging the aura sphere, then air dodging to the lip of the stage. The aura sphere often scares your opponent into shielding especially if it is large. I also want to point out that this is a case where you didn’t jump and air dodge – but that is probably because you immediately got sent to the ledge.

1:55 you keep trying to air dodge in front of DDD which leads to an easy grab.

1:59 Jump + fair – you got punished with fsmash. While you didn’t air dodge this time, your trajectory was the same ( get sent off stage = immediately jump)

2:25 Jump + air dodge

2:43 be careful as you are mashing not to input something you don’t want like nair.

2:47 You should go for the wall cling in this situation. Obviously DDD is going to ledge hog you if you don’t.

3:10 roll roll roll roll fsmash -DDD powershields it – grab!

4:00 more rolling, fsmashing getting grabbed.



Ok you have quite a lot of bad habits. I recommend practicing /playing for a while without rolling and fsmashing. Force yourself to avoid those options. Find other ways of moving (foxtrot, walk, dash).

Your reactions to being thrown off stage are extremely predictable. You need to mix up up Bing to the ledge, stalling with dair, wave bounces, b reverses and so on. A common thing lucarios do to recover is b pivot in the air to turn around and face backwards towards the stage and then they threaten with bair to protect themselves from the edge guard.

In general I think you’re not too familiar with lucario’s mixups and playstyle. I recommend you spend some time on youtube looking up Trela, Junebug, Azen, Lee Martin, and Richi to study how they move, what they bait and how they are successful at a high level.

Learn wavebounces, b reverses, b pivots, all lucario ATs.

I hope that is helpful! Good luck!
 

Konrad-QD

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
396
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Akron, Ohio
I think your biggest problem was getting up from the ledge especially above 100, try jumping more from the ledge, jump>air dodge can be good if you jump from ledge as soon as you can cuz your invincibility from the ledge can carry over into your air dodge invincibility if you time it right. Jump> dair too and maybe jump> fair. The one time you jumped from the ledge, you didn't get punished for it, but you just reset yourself in the same position by b reversing into air dodge (2nd stock), next time just try going for the top platform and if you think you're going to get aerialed at that point then you can b reverse. From that position you probably want to land with dair or nair. Dairto trade/clank with his pikmin, against other chars lucario's dair is going to usually win out because of how disjointed it is. Nair to get ride of RCO if you have that going on to the ledge. If you get on the ledge with up-b and have RCO it's usually a bad idea to land drop back from ledge and jump up with air dodge, especially against olimar. Doing it with fair is usually better since you can transition into a FF nair to minimize RCO and it's harder to punish, but against Olimar you usually don't get that opportunity since Olimar is usually going to hang back with grabs, fsmash, etc. out of range from that.

Don't use aura sphere as much against Olimar unless he's in the air (or you're landing into him with it), you did it a lot 2nd stock in neutral and got punished for it. You also wasted a good opportunity at some point in the match where you tried crossing him up with an aura sphere, if you can get behind olimar then that's a huge opportunity for you, in fact, you should probably make it your goal to look for opportunities that let you cross up olimar safely. Olimar has 2 good OoS options: grab and usmash and his grab doesn't have armor on it. His rolls are bad, I'm not sure if his spotdodge has average frame data on it or not, but I feel like it's pretty easy to punish. If you get behind Olimar then his only good OoS option is usmash since that eliminates a grab OoS and then you can just pressure his shield with spaced attacks so you don't get hit by usmash until he panics and spotdodges or tries use his [bad] roll to roll away. Jabs and grabs are good, but also Dtilt is good if you read a spotdodge or shield drop because you want olimar in the air and dtilt puts him at a really good position for lucario to take advantage of. Dtilt is also good to do that when he's air dodging into you, like from the ledge for example, but that situation didn't really appear that often in the match.
Hey thanks again! Can you critique this: http://youtu.be/t7Pt94POimU
 

Player-1

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Rainbow Cruise
Not much to comment on you play that match pretty well and lain didn't adapt until just a little bit at the end, you just had the obvious recovery flubs.
I'd say don't give up center stage so easily there was one time you had him at the edge of the stage and you pretty much just retreats. You should work on getting to the spots you can easily auto cancel up-b on stage. I'd say tone down on the b revered ASC just a bit but lain wasn't doing a good job dealing with them and if you find a player weakness by all means exploit it. Id also like to see you use some more grounded options to wall mk out like ftilt and pivot grabs but again lain wasn't doing a good job dealing with your aerial approaches so go for it. I think the lucario can do a good job walling mk out if mk feels threatened to use moves that extend his hurtbox like ftilt but lain wasn't on
The ground much and lucario should be okay with that. That's about it, it was a good match but hard to critique since lain just fell for stuff that shouldn't work as well as it did
 

Thorizard

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
12
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Scottsdale, AZ
The second video was ten times better than the first, so great job improving! Way too many b-reversals. Like that should be a once-a-match surprise to get girls and stuff, but it's not that reliable as an attack. It's great for momentum, but he really just had to throw out dairs in space to stop it, which lots of players do.
I agree with P1 on everything eh said of course. Stay on the ground more cause that's where Luc can even the field in this match. Staying in shield and getting hits in when he can.
Be careful with aura spheres. That one at the end that you shot to get back on the ledge at 3:53 should have gotten you killed. Idk why he didn't dodge that. Aura spheres tend not to work when your opponent has momentum, which MK does any time Luc is offstage in gimping position. Try to go for more pokes with them cause it really disrupts momentum when your opponent gets annoyed like that. Unfortunately, you didn't have a whole lot of options when you threw that one I mentioned, but that's because your DI got you in bad position. You shouldn't have been there to begin with, so work on DI. It's a Luc's most valuable tool by far. Living and saving stocks is what makes him good. Conserve that power, live on the edge.
 

Konrad-QD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
396
Location
Akron, Ohio
Not much to comment on you play that match pretty well and lain didn't adapt until just a little bit at the end, you just had the obvious recovery flubs.
I'd say don't give up center stage so easily there was one time you had him at the edge of the stage and you pretty much just retreats. You should work on getting to the spots you can easily auto cancel up-b on stage. I'd say tone down on the b revered ASC just a bit but lain wasn't doing a good job dealing with them and if you find a player weakness by all means exploit it. Id also like to see you use some more grounded options to wall mk out like ftilt and pivot grabs but again lain wasn't doing a good job dealing with your aerial approaches so go for it. I think the lucario can do a good job walling mk out if mk feels threatened to use moves that extend his hurtbox like ftilt but lain wasn't on
The ground much and lucario should be okay with that. That's about it, it was a good match but hard to critique since lain just fell for stuff that shouldn't work as well as it did
Hey! Could you please take a look at the wario match vs zan i just posted?
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,205
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Rainbow Cruise
Hey! Could you please take a look at the wario match vs zan i just posted?
Against Wario especially, but against everyone really, you should work on your spacing and not just your spacing around his shield so he can't shield grab you (most basic concept of spacing). You need to be spacing your body so that you're a threat to Wario, but at the same time safe, so it's not even spacing your moves, but your body (positioning) and it's not just an instantaneous thing sometimes, your spacing can start seconds before you actually throw out a move. Example: Wario hits you above him, you're trying to get down safely with bair. You need to be thinking and calculating while your falling so when you reach him your bair is spaced well (use your fast fall at the last second to throw off timing helps a lot). Zan played a really aggressive Wario and if you did a better job spacing you would have completely walled him out and wrecked him for it, maybe that's why he was playing so aggressive. Sometimes you don't really have a choice but to throw out a move that isn't spaced right, but that would be because you didn't think before hand and put yourself a lousy position where you couldn't throw out a well spaced move. Pivot grabbing also helps a lot against aggressive Warios in the right situations. Then you need to be thinking about what options your opponent has after you use a spaced move. A move that's well spaced is usually not punishable, so your opponent will either be bad and try to punish you for it which you can then punish (easy example, you space a fair on opponent's shield and they try to shield grab it, but they can't since it was safe, you now can punish them for missing a grab) or your opponent will be good and instead start trying to bait you indirectly to make a mistake after (so you try to space a fair on wario's shield, wario jumps out of shield to approach you during cool down lag of fair, he now has the threat of hitting you with a falling uair or crossing you up with a bite or air dodge to grab or something).

That sort of got out of topic since you have to get work on your spacing first, but that's the next step or the step you should be thinking about when you do correctly space stuff well. Wario is sort of difficult to abuse this when he's in the air because of his amazing drift speed (but you should be trying to wall him out in the air anyway), on the ground it's a lot easier.

Also, when you get hit off stage, but not really far like into the corner, you have a tendency to hold fully in (toward the stage) and he punished you a lot for that, sometimes you shouldn't hold any direction and just let yourself fall (airdodge/aerial) or just a tiny bit in, but not fully or even hold back. It's counter-intuitive since you're offstage (well you're offstage AND lucario) but sometimes it's just the best option. This is why he got you with bite so much since your trajectory was easy to read. If you came up with a SPACED fair by holding just a bit toward the stage instead of fully you could have outpsaced the bite (so space around the bite).

Lastly, you have a common habit that a lot of players have, even top players, but you tend to momentum cancel when there's no reason to. He'll hit you with a move and you'll fair to break out of hitstun sooner, but the fair lag leaves you open and you get hit by it. Sometimes it's fine to do it because it's still your fastest option out of hitstun, but not when the opponent can punish you.
 

Konrad-QD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
396
Location
Akron, Ohio
Against Wario especially, but against everyone really, you should work on your spacing and not just your spacing around his shield so he can't shield grab you (most basic concept of spacing). You need to be spacing your body so that you're a threat to Wario, but at the same time safe, so it's not even spacing your moves, but your body (positioning) and it's not just an instantaneous thing sometimes, your spacing can start seconds before you actually throw out a move. Example: Wario hits you above him, you're trying to get down safely with bair. You need to be thinking and calculating while your falling so when you reach him your bair is spaced well (use your fast fall at the last second to throw off timing helps a lot). Zan played a really aggressive Wario and if you did a better job spacing you would have completely walled him out and wrecked him for it, maybe that's why he was playing so aggressive. Sometimes you don't really have a choice but to throw out a move that isn't spaced right, but that would be because you didn't think before hand and put yourself a lousy position where you couldn't throw out a well spaced move. Pivot grabbing also helps a lot against aggressive Warios in the right situations. Then you need to be thinking about what options your opponent has after you use a spaced move. A move that's well spaced is usually not punishable, so your opponent will either be bad and try to punish you for it which you can then punish (easy example, you space a fair on opponent's shield and they try to shield grab it, but they can't since it was safe, you now can punish them for missing a grab) or your opponent will be good and instead start trying to bait you indirectly to make a mistake after (so you try to space a fair on wario's shield, wario jumps out of shield to approach you during cool down lag of fair, he now has the threat of hitting you with a falling uair or crossing you up with a bite or air dodge to grab or something).

That sort of got out of topic since you have to get work on your spacing first, but that's the next step or the step you should be thinking about when you do correctly space stuff well. Wario is sort of difficult to abuse this when he's in the air because of his amazing drift speed (but you should be trying to wall him out in the air anyway), on the ground it's a lot easier.

Also, when you get hit off stage, but not really far like into the corner, you have a tendency to hold fully in (toward the stage) and he punished you a lot for that, sometimes you shouldn't hold any direction and just let yourself fall (airdodge/aerial) or just a tiny bit in, but not fully or even hold back. It's counter-intuitive since you're offstage (well you're offstage AND lucario) but sometimes it's just the best option. This is why he got you with bite so much since your trajectory was easy to read. If you came up with a SPACED fair by holding just a bit toward the stage instead of fully you could have outpsaced the bite (so space around the bite).

Lastly, you have a common habit that a lot of players have, even top players, but you tend to momentum cancel when there's no reason to. He'll hit you with a move and you'll fair to break out of hitstun sooner, but the fair lag leaves you open and you get hit by it. Sometimes it's fine to do it because it's still your fastest option out of hitstun, but not when the opponent can punish you.
Thank you very much for this advice! I will think it over and try to apply it. How do you recommend I practice in order to get better at the type of spacing you described?
 

Player-1

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Rainbow Cruise
I didn't know about the triple footstool one, the problem with that one as opposed to the one I showed you is that you need more stage room to do it so if you start it near the edge of the stage you won't be able to do it. I didn't know about the normal non-foostool one, I thought we tried that one when I met you in Ohio, but I guess you can, maybe it's like frame perfect or something in which case it'd be harder, but IDK. If you want to practice it practice on a CPU in training mode set to walk because they will roll away the fastest.
 

Konrad-QD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
396
Location
Akron, Ohio
Yea
Does anyone about the details behind the the forward upthrow chain grab in the following video? I never seen it before. Do grabs need to be buffered out of the dash?

http://youtu.be/XWqtcOHyfSA?t=6m38s

@ Konrad-QD Konrad-QD
yeah I've been practicing it. You have to buffer the dash and the grab. Timing is earlier tHan you would think. Doing grab releases on Lucas then buffering the dash grab has very similar timing so try practicing that first :)
 

Konrad-QD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
396
Location
Akron, Ohio
Does anyone about the details behind the the forward upthrow chain grab in the following video? I never seen it before. Do grabs need to be buffered out of the dash?

http://youtu.be/XWqtcOHyfSA?t=6m38s

@ Konrad-QD Konrad-QD
also you have to flick the grab button really fast otherwise you buffer shield, roll or spot dodge. If those come out that means you're pressing Z too long.
 

Konrad-QD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
396
Location
Akron, Ohio
I didn't know about the triple footstool one, the problem with that one as opposed to the one I showed you is that you need more stage room to do it so if you start it near the edge of the stage you won't be able to do it. I didn't know about the normal non-foostool one, I thought we tried that one when I met you in Ohio, but I guess you can, maybe it's like frame perfect or something in which case it'd be harder, but IDK. If you want to practice it practice on a CPU in training mode set to walk because they will roll away the fastest.
http://www.twitch.tv/sakums/b/540558829

check out 3:22:00

The ruleset was dumb (5 minute timer) but I tried to implement some of the spacing stuff you mentioned here. What do you think?
 

Konrad-QD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
396
Location
Akron, Ohio
I didn't know about the triple footstool one, the problem with that one as opposed to the one I showed you is that you need more stage room to do it so if you start it near the edge of the stage you won't be able to do it. I didn't know about the normal non-foostool one, I thought we tried that one when I met you in Ohio, but I guess you can, maybe it's like frame perfect or something in which case it'd be harder, but IDK. If you want to practice it practice on a CPU in training mode set to walk because they will roll away the fastest.
Hey when you get a chance could you give me feedback on my youmacon sets?
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/584175603

2:59:00-3:40:00

Especially vs ddk
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,205
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Rainbow Cruise
Any chance you could make some comments tonight? I'm going to shuffle tomorrow and was hoping to implement your suggestions then...
Hopefully you catch this at some point before you play.

Vs Sai you're missing a lot of easy grab punishes, sometimes you were missing the punish all together or some times you'd go for something else that wasn't as good as a grab punish like example I saw you dair one time. Grabbing and throwing diddy is important because of his poor aerial mobility and he loses stage control. It looked like your item game just snowballed downward when you were getting pressured especially game 2. You need to be confident enough to be able to air dodge int the ground to pick up opponent's bananas.

Vs Needles you need to do a better job making him feel walled out, Sheik doesn't have much of a disjointed hitboxes but lucario does. If you make him feel walled out, but pressured enough not to throw out needles he'll start approaching you in unsafe ways that you can punish with walk back ftilts/fsmashes. Against sheik's recovery, she doesn't have a hitbox when she reappears so just grab the edge when she uses her 2nd jump off stage, if she lands on stage if you're below 100% you can usually do a get up from the ledge and punish with a dash grab or something. Sheik's dsmash is frame 4 IIRC and has I think 3 hits to it so watch out for that. Be careful of how you air dodge off stage, sheik's look for that to get some early kills since Sheik has a problem killing, you don't need to go for aura sphere off stages because it's making you an easy target to get hit by Sheik. I think you would have won this set if you had just held shield against the dsmash instead of letting go on your 2nd stock, you had a stock lead which is big against Sheik and you could have ran away with the lead.
 
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