Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
oops double post - was going to edit instead replied - sorry!
what is your first language nau?
what is your first language nau?
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The Lucario Video and Critique Thread
- Thread starter iRJi
- Start date
Nau
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2011
- Messages
- 19
My first language is Spanish, I'm from Canary Islands (random place in the middle of the ocean lol)
Sometimes when I double jump it's just because i feel i'm going to be punished for something I did on my first jump. So the problem, I guess, is not the second jump actually but what I did just before xD in some of the moments you pointed I double jumped I had no space and I knew that if I had landed normally any kind of aerial could have hit me. Anyway you're right, that's something I have to work on!
2:45. I roll twice, first roll I find it not punishable as he was bairing. Second roll idk. Also I think first roll was a mistake and the second one was me just trying to go back to the prior position.
2:50 airdodge was probably a platform cancel
"3:20 – consider fair to nair to fair to nair in order to extend your combo. Dair doesn’t really allow much follow ups." - This guy somehow manages to shield some of the fairs to nairs at low percentage, so I fair to dair instead. But you're correct, here a fair to nair would completely have hit xD but i better not try it at low percentage because if he blocks it it's a guaranteed nair OoS. In the rest of the set I do fair to nair, you can see that, but notice the percentage thing xD.
About the roll issue, I try to roll only when peach is in the air and performing some aerial so she can't punish (forward roll), or when she's pressuring me (backwards roll). I'll have to watch the replays again and try to improve those habits. There might be better options, you're completely right.
5:33 was a mistake as you pointed.
5:37 yep it was xD
6:23 tried to punish that smash with an uptilt, but you're completely right.
8:34 I kinda spammed fair this match for getting off the ledge. But that's one of the only options which seems to work, as the peach player always hits my normal get up, roll, jump and attack. Anyway I should try other ways of getting back to the stage.
9:35 I roll randomly sometimes and try to hit with uptilt or jab xD I did it twice in those matches i think and the first time you told me it was predictable. The second you're telling me it wasn't. I don't really spam roll so no one covers it and i don't really get punished most of the times (in this set not a single one). What i'm telling you here is that you might not have seen that coming but someone could have found that roll very predictable. IDK if we can actually say something like "man that was completely unpredictable" xD.
10:10 idk if a sideB would have hit. he rolls before i touch the ground but i wasn't even fast falling, so it could have hit. anyway i don't use it in this MU very often because peach's nair OoS destroys completely that option. And this guy moves just too much xD maybe if he kept shield for longer I would have tried it more often but it's not like hitting a snake with it. If you watch other matches of my lucario you'll see I actually use it sometimes xD. Also you will notice that I fair to dair his shield like 2 or 3 times on the whole set and it hits. That happens because he never stands on his shield and as soon as my fair hits it, he tries to punish or roll or whatever.
13:10 What I told you, I rolled when the dair hit me and punished.
13:18 completely right xD
14:28 he didn't want to do that obviously
Your conclusions-
1 Yep, should put some work into that!
2 Completely agree
3 Yeah, as I told you
4 Commented it before xD
About your spacing:
i don't think you're doing anything wrong against snake, but it's difficult to judge your spacing by just a MU where the other character can't even do aerials xD.
If you want you can send me (or upload obviously) replays playing against ness or marth so I can tell you my opinion. Marth outranges lucario's fair. Bair hits him but if he reads it he won't short hop fair but punish with sideB. I could write a lot about that MU but i don't think this is the place and i don't think anyone will be interested neither xD.
If you try to hit marth with fair and he hits you with his fair, the problem is the attack you're choosing
If you try to hit ness with fair and he hits you with his, the problem is your timming or your position. Don't throw fair randomly but try to see when he can't do anything to counter it. Ness is sooo limited (unless you're shaky or fow lol)
Thanks for the awesome comment and I will sure try to correct everything!
Sometimes when I double jump it's just because i feel i'm going to be punished for something I did on my first jump. So the problem, I guess, is not the second jump actually but what I did just before xD in some of the moments you pointed I double jumped I had no space and I knew that if I had landed normally any kind of aerial could have hit me. Anyway you're right, that's something I have to work on!
2:45. I roll twice, first roll I find it not punishable as he was bairing. Second roll idk. Also I think first roll was a mistake and the second one was me just trying to go back to the prior position.
2:50 airdodge was probably a platform cancel
"3:20 – consider fair to nair to fair to nair in order to extend your combo. Dair doesn’t really allow much follow ups." - This guy somehow manages to shield some of the fairs to nairs at low percentage, so I fair to dair instead. But you're correct, here a fair to nair would completely have hit xD but i better not try it at low percentage because if he blocks it it's a guaranteed nair OoS. In the rest of the set I do fair to nair, you can see that, but notice the percentage thing xD.
About the roll issue, I try to roll only when peach is in the air and performing some aerial so she can't punish (forward roll), or when she's pressuring me (backwards roll). I'll have to watch the replays again and try to improve those habits. There might be better options, you're completely right.
5:33 was a mistake as you pointed.
5:37 yep it was xD
6:23 tried to punish that smash with an uptilt, but you're completely right.
8:34 I kinda spammed fair this match for getting off the ledge. But that's one of the only options which seems to work, as the peach player always hits my normal get up, roll, jump and attack. Anyway I should try other ways of getting back to the stage.
9:35 I roll randomly sometimes and try to hit with uptilt or jab xD I did it twice in those matches i think and the first time you told me it was predictable. The second you're telling me it wasn't. I don't really spam roll so no one covers it and i don't really get punished most of the times (in this set not a single one). What i'm telling you here is that you might not have seen that coming but someone could have found that roll very predictable. IDK if we can actually say something like "man that was completely unpredictable" xD.
10:10 idk if a sideB would have hit. he rolls before i touch the ground but i wasn't even fast falling, so it could have hit. anyway i don't use it in this MU very often because peach's nair OoS destroys completely that option. And this guy moves just too much xD maybe if he kept shield for longer I would have tried it more often but it's not like hitting a snake with it. If you watch other matches of my lucario you'll see I actually use it sometimes xD. Also you will notice that I fair to dair his shield like 2 or 3 times on the whole set and it hits. That happens because he never stands on his shield and as soon as my fair hits it, he tries to punish or roll or whatever.
13:10 What I told you, I rolled when the dair hit me and punished.
13:18 completely right xD
14:28 he didn't want to do that obviously
Your conclusions-
1 Yep, should put some work into that!
2 Completely agree
3 Yeah, as I told you
4 Commented it before xD
About your spacing:
i don't think you're doing anything wrong against snake, but it's difficult to judge your spacing by just a MU where the other character can't even do aerials xD.
If you want you can send me (or upload obviously) replays playing against ness or marth so I can tell you my opinion. Marth outranges lucario's fair. Bair hits him but if he reads it he won't short hop fair but punish with sideB. I could write a lot about that MU but i don't think this is the place and i don't think anyone will be interested neither xD.
If you try to hit marth with fair and he hits you with his fair, the problem is the attack you're choosing
If you try to hit ness with fair and he hits you with his, the problem is your timming or your position. Don't throw fair randomly but try to see when he can't do anything to counter it. Ness is sooo limited (unless you're shaky or fow lol)
Thanks for the awesome comment and I will sure try to correct everything!
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Richi vs Hyuga the mk matchup
2:46:37 so far you just don’t look comfortable in this matchup. Mk has gotten hit by some of the things you do but he has read your wave bounces and you’re not trying to punish his moves like tornado or landings.
2:46:48 – when mk downair camps like this you can read the timing in such a way as to get in a full hop –fair fair double hop fair nair combo. Mk is better of using fair for spacing and not down air because it has some lag you can actually punish hard.
2:47:00 – your recovery wasn’t good. You could have landed on the platform which was maybe your intent but otherwise you do something other than just fast fall. B reverse to protect your recovery with bair, maybe stall with dair, maybe use that second jump to get on the platform before mk does something.
2:47:17 – this leads to the mk gimp
2:47:22 – you’re on the platform mk is below the platform waiting. Trela approaches this situation very well. Mk’s love coming at you from below when you’re on a platform, but if you’re too impatient and dair out of shield before they up air to pressure the platform you will be vulnerable the same way mk is vulnerable when he dair camps you. The mk can time the fair right after your dair. I’m also not sure if you’re doing the dair optimally – there seems to be time between your shield dropping and the dair coming out. You can actually press jump + dair while still holding shield. That way its faster and less punishable afterwards since you’re on the platform very quickly and can power shield. You can also fall through the platform and dair as a mixup.
2:49:56 – this was a very intelligent and patient second stalk. Mk wanted the quick kill and went for it and you punished all of his attempts very well. The mk player should have grabbed you more because he doesn’t have to KO you just get you of the stage and then he would have had an easier time killing you.
2:50:47 – this is what I was talking about regarding the mk dairs! Good stuff.
2:52:07 – oof that was close! Be aware that a better mk would not have let you get back on the stage. Their reverse Up B will consistently send you away from the stage - see Anti vs Trela or Anti vs any lucario to see what I’m talking about. You should take a look how to avoid that situation.
2:52:45 – really clutch aura sphere – again it was lucky that it hit. I haven’t seen you go for a bair once on your recovery – something perhaps to utilize more?
2:52:53 – the clutchest aura sphere – but very nice and well thought out – I didn’t see it coming and obviously mk didn’t either.
You didn’t seem comfortable this match – you were hesitant to look for punishes and seemed to be a little panicky off the stage rather than cool and collected. Your DI was amazing and your second stalk was amazing. Do realize that you would not have won a match playing like this vs a better mk or one that knows the matchup better.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Game 2:
2:55:21 Again I have mixed feelings about the opening of this match. You deal with tornado well, and I saw you try to punish up B and a mk landing with dash attack.
2:55:56 great ledge play.
2:56:20 silly tornado, good kill. I think that as a rule no one should use an option off the ledge that can be punished with fsmash by lucario. Its what lucario wants and the risk reward ratio is not in the favor of anyone.
2:56:27 good edge guard by mk, read your fair. You still haven’t used the bair option I mentioned earlier.
2:57:00 Amazing dash grab, I didn’t see it coming and clearly mk didn’t either.
2:57:06 tried to do it again and this time it was more obvious.
2:58:05 Again that fsmash hits – this should be the number 1 think this mk is watching out for!
2:58:32 amazing juggle of mk! Now you’re playing comfortably.
2:58:36 Yay Bair! Although what I am talking about is to do it right before grab the edge or up B.
2:59:19 Nice read!
This match was much better. Your ability to get back on the stage was solid off the ledge! Your second stalk was again amazing. I think I caught a moment 2:58:38 that leads me to believe that you’re once again not dairing out of shield properly – I might be wrong and you could have just messed up but let me give you a link which demonstrates what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvc2HV1oAFE
check out 1:18 for the dair on platform thing, 4:27, 8:40 for the bair thing, and in general I think this is a really great example of how the matchup can be played at a super high level. I think the dairs trela uses that come out as footstools on the ground are also performed OOS as I described above but I’m not certain.
Again congrats on an amazing lucario!
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
nau- btw I can speak spanish so feel free to articulate a thought in spanish if you want to =)
Also aren't the Canary Islands really beautiful?
Also aren't the Canary Islands really beautiful?
Nau
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2011
- Messages
- 19
I won't speak spanish in smashboards, it would make no sense xD but if you want to chat feel free to add me to msn or skype or whatever.
The Canary Islands are beautiful, but that's kind of an offtopic lol I better not post anything related to that here!
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Analysis: Richi Lucario vs Rafa Snake
This is a difficult patient matchup. I’ve lost to a bunch of snakes recently so I look forward to analyzing your play.
5:36:29 Great opening! You look comfortable in your approach and I’ve seen you mix up several options like landing force palm and double b reverse sphere which require different reactions from snake. Great stuff!
5:36:43 Really this is the first mistake you’ve had, if you can call it a mistake. The wave bounce is a bit high so snake has time to react and punish you pretty hard.
5:36:58 - hmm not sure whats going on there
5:37:29 – absolutely fantastic set of landing reads and the dair to landing force palm was spot on.
5:37:47 – I have no idea how you grabbed so fast after he powershielded your nair. I’m stealing it if I can figure out what you did =)
5:38:14 your ability to avoid grenades is impressive. On the other hand I wonder if you ever instant throw them back at snake - usually a great option if you know it isn’t cooked. I feel like this would discourage snake from camping as much if you could out do him with nades and he would feel pressured to approach – leading to your opportunity to combo him. Unfortunately you get hit by a rouge grenade at 5:38:24.
5:38:35 great set of roll punishes and landing punishes. Nice use of dash attack for this purpose.
5:38:59 Not sure what the side step was for. The only thing I think you could be dodging is a snake dash attack, but I think you thought he was going to grab you, but didn’t realize your aura ball pushed him away.
5:39:11 very pretty double breverse wave bounce.
5:39:13 I feel like this situation frequently happens vs snake. If snake recovers at a certain height he can air dodge straight into power shield or up tilt on the ground. We lucarios are accustomed to thinking of upair to dair as a frame trap but that doesn’t work in this situation. Therefore I wonder if you could try up air to landing force palm instead of dair? I think there should be some way of punishing this common snake habit.
5:39:43 I feel like you’re getting impatient and fishing with fsmashes. Maybe the reason for this is because you managed to connect one a bit before this moment and are overeager.
5:40:00 very pretty option.
5:40:19 tough situation. Not sure how snakes dair didn’t connect or your response.
5:41:01 I wonder how you manage to punish snake’s ftilt with side b. I always get pushed too far away by ftilt when I try to punish him for it. Well done either way.
5:41:42 Hard loss. It’s hard for me to pinpoint what you did wrong. I get the feeling that you became very impatient on second stalk and then lost your cool after you got killed first. I think messing with snakes camp game is one thing you could definitely work on. Instant throws, glide tosses (I assume one can glide toss a nade although I’ve never actually seen it come to think of it).
I will commentate the next match tomorrow.
EDIT I definitely did see glide tosses with nades now =D so yeah do that on occasion.
This is a difficult patient matchup. I’ve lost to a bunch of snakes recently so I look forward to analyzing your play.
5:36:29 Great opening! You look comfortable in your approach and I’ve seen you mix up several options like landing force palm and double b reverse sphere which require different reactions from snake. Great stuff!
5:36:43 Really this is the first mistake you’ve had, if you can call it a mistake. The wave bounce is a bit high so snake has time to react and punish you pretty hard.
5:36:58 - hmm not sure whats going on there
5:37:29 – absolutely fantastic set of landing reads and the dair to landing force palm was spot on.
5:37:47 – I have no idea how you grabbed so fast after he powershielded your nair. I’m stealing it if I can figure out what you did =)
5:38:14 your ability to avoid grenades is impressive. On the other hand I wonder if you ever instant throw them back at snake - usually a great option if you know it isn’t cooked. I feel like this would discourage snake from camping as much if you could out do him with nades and he would feel pressured to approach – leading to your opportunity to combo him. Unfortunately you get hit by a rouge grenade at 5:38:24.
5:38:35 great set of roll punishes and landing punishes. Nice use of dash attack for this purpose.
5:38:59 Not sure what the side step was for. The only thing I think you could be dodging is a snake dash attack, but I think you thought he was going to grab you, but didn’t realize your aura ball pushed him away.
5:39:11 very pretty double breverse wave bounce.
5:39:13 I feel like this situation frequently happens vs snake. If snake recovers at a certain height he can air dodge straight into power shield or up tilt on the ground. We lucarios are accustomed to thinking of upair to dair as a frame trap but that doesn’t work in this situation. Therefore I wonder if you could try up air to landing force palm instead of dair? I think there should be some way of punishing this common snake habit.
5:39:43 I feel like you’re getting impatient and fishing with fsmashes. Maybe the reason for this is because you managed to connect one a bit before this moment and are overeager.
5:40:00 very pretty option.
5:40:19 tough situation. Not sure how snakes dair didn’t connect or your response.
5:41:01 I wonder how you manage to punish snake’s ftilt with side b. I always get pushed too far away by ftilt when I try to punish him for it. Well done either way.
5:41:42 Hard loss. It’s hard for me to pinpoint what you did wrong. I get the feeling that you became very impatient on second stalk and then lost your cool after you got killed first. I think messing with snakes camp game is one thing you could definitely work on. Instant throws, glide tosses (I assume one can glide toss a nade although I’ve never actually seen it come to think of it).
I will commentate the next match tomorrow.
EDIT I definitely did see glide tosses with nades now =D so yeah do that on occasion.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
one more thing, I just thought of something - I feel like you became predictable with the double b reverse aura spheres. You had a great start with the landing force palm reads and those are what you need to have going in your game in order to make things like the wave bounce aura spheres work because they require snake to respond differently. If snake can shield everything you throw at him (fair, dash attack, aura sphere, dair, nair) then he doesn't have to work as hard to win. Now if you can get the force palm to work - the fastest tool we have to punish shield then you're golden. And you can sometimes use grenades as insurance in case snake rolls or something. If snake drops a grenade and you go for the landing force palm but he rolls, he can't punish you because of the grenade that he dropped. You can usually shield in time. Worse thing that happens is you get a grenade hit which isn't that big a deal. Now if you have snake rolling/side stepping, then your aura spheres will start to connect better.
I also think you could try to ASC into him on occasion. I realize its super risky, but thats the other option you have to punish a shielding defensive snake such as Rafa. In my opinion your play would benefit from exploring these options.
I also think you could try to ASC into him on occasion. I realize its super risky, but thats the other option you have to punish a shielding defensive snake such as Rafa. In my opinion your play would benefit from exploring these options.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Richi Lucario Vs Rafa Snake Game 2:
5:42:38
Both of you are playing very defensively and with good spacing. You manage to stay out of ftilt range for the most part and have been only punished by DACUS for rolling backwards once that I caught. Dacus is very punishable by ASC so if you feel pressured by it just b reverse and let snake glide straight into your ASC+dair or nair or whatever.
I stopped at this specific time to compliment you on your use of dash attack any time snake goes for ftilt but misses. It’s a great option and has to be well timed. Good stuff.
5:44:27 Nice frame trap with the aura ball. I feel like you could include fast fall up air to nair or bair as an option to juggle snake. I feel like for the most part you jump and up air to bait an air dodge and then come down looking to aura sphere or grab or smash him. That works well but you could more pressure on snake with aerial frame traps as well and not just landing traps.
5:44:45 I think you were so worried about avoiding nades that you messed up your spacing for ftilt. You could have done some great damage if you lived longer of course- so perhaps your discomfort with nades is something you should work on – like I said before – instant tosses, glide tosses, so on.
5:45:38 great air dodge punish with nair. Your ability to punish air dodges is great! Nice read on DSMASH to get the kill. Not sure why snake fell into it though.
5:46:56 So many snakes look for that up tilt read off the roll They know lucario has limited options in that situation because he can die from ftilt or grab-up tilt, practically anything snake has. I think it’s best to jump away and go to the ledge and start baiting some commitment from snake. Maybe once in a while that roll is ok if snake is used to you not rolling. Anyway you did a lot of damage that time so its not a big deal or a mistake just something that I’ve seen happen very often in this matchup.
5:47:45 You were juggling him so well except for this moment. I notice that your juggling comes down to: jump to aerial (up air or fair), or you wait for snake to air dodge because he expects the jump+ aerial, and then you punish with things like dair and nair. I think you bait the air dodge by simply creating the expectation that you could jump and up air him, but you don’t do a frame trap that forces the air dodge very often. This is why I think fast fall up airs are something you should implement in your gameplay, as well as grenade throw (forces snake to air dodge) to aerial (this requires snake to throw a grenade at you during his recovery).
Great stuff in any case – solid safe play.
5:42:38
Both of you are playing very defensively and with good spacing. You manage to stay out of ftilt range for the most part and have been only punished by DACUS for rolling backwards once that I caught. Dacus is very punishable by ASC so if you feel pressured by it just b reverse and let snake glide straight into your ASC+dair or nair or whatever.
I stopped at this specific time to compliment you on your use of dash attack any time snake goes for ftilt but misses. It’s a great option and has to be well timed. Good stuff.
5:44:27 Nice frame trap with the aura ball. I feel like you could include fast fall up air to nair or bair as an option to juggle snake. I feel like for the most part you jump and up air to bait an air dodge and then come down looking to aura sphere or grab or smash him. That works well but you could more pressure on snake with aerial frame traps as well and not just landing traps.
5:44:45 I think you were so worried about avoiding nades that you messed up your spacing for ftilt. You could have done some great damage if you lived longer of course- so perhaps your discomfort with nades is something you should work on – like I said before – instant tosses, glide tosses, so on.
5:45:38 great air dodge punish with nair. Your ability to punish air dodges is great! Nice read on DSMASH to get the kill. Not sure why snake fell into it though.
5:46:56 So many snakes look for that up tilt read off the roll They know lucario has limited options in that situation because he can die from ftilt or grab-up tilt, practically anything snake has. I think it’s best to jump away and go to the ledge and start baiting some commitment from snake. Maybe once in a while that roll is ok if snake is used to you not rolling. Anyway you did a lot of damage that time so its not a big deal or a mistake just something that I’ve seen happen very often in this matchup.
5:47:45 You were juggling him so well except for this moment. I notice that your juggling comes down to: jump to aerial (up air or fair), or you wait for snake to air dodge because he expects the jump+ aerial, and then you punish with things like dair and nair. I think you bait the air dodge by simply creating the expectation that you could jump and up air him, but you don’t do a frame trap that forces the air dodge very often. This is why I think fast fall up airs are something you should implement in your gameplay, as well as grenade throw (forces snake to air dodge) to aerial (this requires snake to throw a grenade at you during his recovery).
Great stuff in any case – solid safe play.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Richi Lucario Vs Rafa Snake Game 3:
5:48:54
You try to landing force palm grab but snake rolls away – its ok! You still don’t get punished because the only way he can punish is if he rolls behind you and near the ledge he can’t do that! Don’t give up on trying to pursue that option!
5:49:14 – interesting use of dtilt-I was surprised it covered snakes landing form behind you. That’s a neat trick!
5:49:18 B reversing to ASC is a great option. But the reason he punished you for using it is two fold: 1 you just did it a moment ago and missed so you already showed your intention of doing it and 2: you did the b reversal too early. Snake actually had time to react instead of b reversing when the ASC would appear in snake’s shield immediately rather than drifting into it. Again I encourage you to use this option.
5:50:26 Following a stretch of not very creative gameplay on your part, snake catches up and scores the first kill. Unfortunate because you played so well! This is when you should be looking for that landing force palm kill. You mind game with the ASC really well and manage to get snake scared in his shield. But then you fling your AS at that shield and give snake the opportunity to approach you and kill. If you think your opponent is scared ****less of your aura but is too smart to do something like roll or spot dodge, you should then go for something that covers the shield option but looks like what he is afraid of. Dash grabbing won’t work because he can tell the difference between a dash grab approach and an fsmash or aura sphere blast. But the landing force palm looks exactly like the fair to dair approach or fair to nair or fair t aura sphere b reverse. It LOOKS like all those options but defeats the only method snake has of avoiding those options – it’s your wildcard! I’m not saying that you should go for this option too blatantly since its punishable. But if you put in a lot of work mindgaming the hell out of that aura sphere, then make the educated guess that he will shield your attempt at killing him and make the read that punishes that!
5:51:11 Fantastic combo and use of side B. Punish the hell out of his shielding.
5:51:48 not a huge fan of stringing multiple rolls together like that but you can do it once in a set I guess.
5:51:52 follow up the jab with up fair + fast fall nair or up air+ dair or fair + landing force palm grab if he air dodges into shield. Waiting for the air dodge as you did is good too but sometimes you need to creat the frame trap if you can rather than count on the air dodge happening.
5:52:30 Not sure why your follow up from the dthrow didn’t hit – I think you mis-spaced it because snake could not have air dodge all of that up air - nair. Alternatively the problem was that your up air was out of range so he was able to initiate his air dodge during your nair and moved out of range of the last lingering hitboxes by the time his air dodge finished. In that case you need to actually space the fair in such a way as to hit him and then fast fall immediately. M2K writes a great article about meta knight juggles that involve up air – nair traps. Great article to read – available at www.clashtournaments.com
I think his thought process applies to this situation very well.
5:52:41 THANK YOU FOR HEARING ME!
5:53:26 Not only did you score the kill on snake, but you got in his head. Rafa is playing very impatiently now and its enabling you to do **** tons of damage all because you messed up his notion of (hey if I sit in my shield and surround myself with grenades then I can punish and kill lucario any time he tries to hit me)
5:54:10 SIDE B RULES ALL - QED
Great stuff this set!
5:48:54
You try to landing force palm grab but snake rolls away – its ok! You still don’t get punished because the only way he can punish is if he rolls behind you and near the ledge he can’t do that! Don’t give up on trying to pursue that option!
5:49:14 – interesting use of dtilt-I was surprised it covered snakes landing form behind you. That’s a neat trick!
5:49:18 B reversing to ASC is a great option. But the reason he punished you for using it is two fold: 1 you just did it a moment ago and missed so you already showed your intention of doing it and 2: you did the b reversal too early. Snake actually had time to react instead of b reversing when the ASC would appear in snake’s shield immediately rather than drifting into it. Again I encourage you to use this option.
5:50:26 Following a stretch of not very creative gameplay on your part, snake catches up and scores the first kill. Unfortunate because you played so well! This is when you should be looking for that landing force palm kill. You mind game with the ASC really well and manage to get snake scared in his shield. But then you fling your AS at that shield and give snake the opportunity to approach you and kill. If you think your opponent is scared ****less of your aura but is too smart to do something like roll or spot dodge, you should then go for something that covers the shield option but looks like what he is afraid of. Dash grabbing won’t work because he can tell the difference between a dash grab approach and an fsmash or aura sphere blast. But the landing force palm looks exactly like the fair to dair approach or fair to nair or fair t aura sphere b reverse. It LOOKS like all those options but defeats the only method snake has of avoiding those options – it’s your wildcard! I’m not saying that you should go for this option too blatantly since its punishable. But if you put in a lot of work mindgaming the hell out of that aura sphere, then make the educated guess that he will shield your attempt at killing him and make the read that punishes that!
5:51:11 Fantastic combo and use of side B. Punish the hell out of his shielding.
5:51:48 not a huge fan of stringing multiple rolls together like that but you can do it once in a set I guess.
5:51:52 follow up the jab with up fair + fast fall nair or up air+ dair or fair + landing force palm grab if he air dodges into shield. Waiting for the air dodge as you did is good too but sometimes you need to creat the frame trap if you can rather than count on the air dodge happening.
5:52:30 Not sure why your follow up from the dthrow didn’t hit – I think you mis-spaced it because snake could not have air dodge all of that up air - nair. Alternatively the problem was that your up air was out of range so he was able to initiate his air dodge during your nair and moved out of range of the last lingering hitboxes by the time his air dodge finished. In that case you need to actually space the fair in such a way as to hit him and then fast fall immediately. M2K writes a great article about meta knight juggles that involve up air – nair traps. Great article to read – available at www.clashtournaments.com
I think his thought process applies to this situation very well.
5:52:41 THANK YOU FOR HEARING ME!
5:53:26 Not only did you score the kill on snake, but you got in his head. Rafa is playing very impatiently now and its enabling you to do **** tons of damage all because you messed up his notion of (hey if I sit in my shield and surround myself with grenades then I can punish and kill lucario any time he tries to hit me)
5:54:10 SIDE B RULES ALL - QED
Great stuff this set!
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Richi said: ↑
Hi, lucario fellows, i got 2nd in the biggest tournament in Mexico city held last Saturday, here is the stream. Enjoy!!
http://es-es.twitch.tv/ligasmashdf/b/370677607
WB1 55.20 - 1.06.50
WB2 2.45.55 - 2.59.25
WSF 5.35.55 - 5.54.10
WF 7.14.45 - 7.38.15
LF 7.39.55 - 8.05.10
GF 8.06.10 - 8.38.40
http://es-es.twitch.tv/ligasmashdf/b/370677607
WB1 55.20 - 1.06.50
WB2 2.45.55 - 2.59.25
WSF 5.35.55 - 5.54.10
WF 7.14.45 - 7.38.15
LF 7.39.55 - 8.05.10
GF 8.06.10 - 8.38.40
WF 7.14.45 - 7.38.15
Richi vs Waymas
Game 1,2 - Wario
I have to say I don’t have a clue about this matchup. I’m watching this video to learn something about it moreso than to offer criticism.
As such I’m not going to talk about specific things too much. The first match was super painful to watch, as it seems both of you were very hesitant to approach.
I notice that Waymas manages to approach you frequently by air dodging your retreating fair and shielding the dair and punishing you with an Oos Option
7:27:26, 7:27:45 are the two examples I’m looking at in this moment. I wonder whether you could learn to punish this approach with fair + landing force palm grab.
I also notice that Waymas usually kos you by doing an item + up air combo. I wonder whether you should learn to deal with items better so that you aren’t forced to spend the air dodge on the item.
In the second match overall you were outplayed, but I think you started doing better when you became aggressive. I wonder whether you shouldn’t approach this matchup with a more aggressive mindset so that wario feels pressured. Right now it looks like wario dances around you freely and when he wants to he comes in for a poke here or there. You don’t seem to pressure him until your last stalk of this match. You are also commonly falling for airdodge approaches when you overcommit with aura sphere or some other laggy move.
Game 3 I think you waved the white flag. I’m going to go do some research on this matchup to see if I can give you more specific suggestions.
Richi vs Waymas
Game 1,2 - Wario
I have to say I don’t have a clue about this matchup. I’m watching this video to learn something about it moreso than to offer criticism.
As such I’m not going to talk about specific things too much. The first match was super painful to watch, as it seems both of you were very hesitant to approach.
I notice that Waymas manages to approach you frequently by air dodging your retreating fair and shielding the dair and punishing you with an Oos Option
7:27:26, 7:27:45 are the two examples I’m looking at in this moment. I wonder whether you could learn to punish this approach with fair + landing force palm grab.
I also notice that Waymas usually kos you by doing an item + up air combo. I wonder whether you should learn to deal with items better so that you aren’t forced to spend the air dodge on the item.
In the second match overall you were outplayed, but I think you started doing better when you became aggressive. I wonder whether you shouldn’t approach this matchup with a more aggressive mindset so that wario feels pressured. Right now it looks like wario dances around you freely and when he wants to he comes in for a poke here or there. You don’t seem to pressure him until your last stalk of this match. You are also commonly falling for airdodge approaches when you overcommit with aura sphere or some other laggy move.
Game 3 I think you waved the white flag. I’m going to go do some research on this matchup to see if I can give you more specific suggestions.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGSTXhvYG4
I think this is the best example of how to play this matchup well. Junebug pressures malcolm well while remaining safe and at the same time making malcolm's approach difficult with pivot grabs sold oos options as well as spaced fsmashes. I also notice he does a good job oft punishing Wario's bike usage. The extreme edge hog is an example but also he hits fsmash into the bike to cause extra delay so that the wario is hit by fsmash.
That is my source of advice on this matchup at this point.
I think this is the best example of how to play this matchup well. Junebug pressures malcolm well while remaining safe and at the same time making malcolm's approach difficult with pivot grabs sold oos options as well as spaced fsmashes. I also notice he does a good job oft punishing Wario's bike usage. The extreme edge hog is an example but also he hits fsmash into the bike to cause extra delay so that the wario is hit by fsmash.
That is my source of advice on this matchup at this point.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
booo noone is here and I put in all that work =(
draMaddox
Smash Rookie
Ahhhhh I knew I wasn't alone in my long love with Lucario.
So basically, I never owned a wii or any Smashes. And I always used to play with my friends. Little nostalgia sinks in and I go out an order the game and cube controller (cuz that's obvious) and I'm hungering to play. While waiting for the stuff to arrive, I do a bunch of research and find you heroes.
You are all incredible. Unfortunately this site seems to be for really competitive players and people who have tons of skill. I'm good but I've never gone to a competition and probably roll dodge and down B way too much.
But I love it, can't wait to play again. I know my fellow Luca brethren will accept me with open arms
haha so as soon as I get my friend code, I'd love to brawl a bit and learn from the greats so I can destroy the kids in my house next year.
its sad that I'm so late to the game but I'm happy you all are still in it to win it.
So basically, I never owned a wii or any Smashes. And I always used to play with my friends. Little nostalgia sinks in and I go out an order the game and cube controller (cuz that's obvious) and I'm hungering to play. While waiting for the stuff to arrive, I do a bunch of research and find you heroes.
You are all incredible. Unfortunately this site seems to be for really competitive players and people who have tons of skill. I'm good but I've never gone to a competition and probably roll dodge and down B way too much.
But I love it, can't wait to play again. I know my fellow Luca brethren will accept me with open arms
haha so as soon as I get my friend code, I'd love to brawl a bit and learn from the greats so I can destroy the kids in my house next year.
its sad that I'm so late to the game but I'm happy you all are still in it to win it.
Welcome to the Lucario section of Smashboards!
This really isn't the place for introducing yourself. You can introduce yourself in the Lucario Social General Discussion (LSGD)
For getting to know Lucario and all the basics, go to the The Lucario Starter Guide and Minor Database.
You can use this thread to get advise for your own Lucario and get some feedback on your gameplay.
I also suggest going to the Smashboards Arena to have some Wi-Fi battles with other people. You can go to get better, or just to have some fun; the people there are really nice.
This really isn't the place for introducing yourself. You can introduce yourself in the Lucario Social General Discussion (LSGD)
For getting to know Lucario and all the basics, go to the The Lucario Starter Guide and Minor Database.
You can use this thread to get advise for your own Lucario and get some feedback on your gameplay.
I also suggest going to the Smashboards Arena to have some Wi-Fi battles with other people. You can go to get better, or just to have some fun; the people there are really nice.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
hey man! Welcome! I look forward to seeing some of your videos =D
draMaddox
Smash Rookie
Awesome thanks guy.
Yea whoever wrote some of the Starter and advanced Lucario guides did a great job. I've read them over and just gotta start applying them.
I'll pm you guys when I feel up to speed to even start trying to get your first stock
Yea whoever wrote some of the Starter and advanced Lucario guides did a great job. I've read them over and just gotta start applying them.
I'll pm you guys when I feel up to speed to even start trying to get your first stock
hichez50
Smash Lord
I have quite a few video for people to watch. I don't expect anyone to watch them all, but any advice would be appreciated.
Vs. Player-1(diddy) (seirouslies)
http://youtu.be/f6HhXMsIIJc
Notes
-Player-1 knows the single nanner lock, so it made this MU extremely difficult. Essentially attacking diddy's shield while he has a nanner out should mean that Lucario loses his stock.
-Player-1 and I play a lot so some of the reads that both of us make are just based on us knowing the hard habits the other uses.
-Vs. Mcpee(wolf)(Tournament)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5oVOX0Yjfo
Notes
-Mcpee actually beat Trela in a game and has poetential in winning against him in a set at whobo. If you haven't seen that video
-Vs. Zero(Marth)(Tournament)
http://youtu.be/nSnfT1D2dwA
Notes
-Only one game recorded.
-I won 2-0
-Vs. Sexy Pit(Pit)(Tournament)
http://youtu.be/gXAySilRHCw
Notes
-Only one game recorded
-I won 2-0
Vs. Player-1(diddy) (seirouslies)
http://youtu.be/f6HhXMsIIJc
Notes
-Player-1 knows the single nanner lock, so it made this MU extremely difficult. Essentially attacking diddy's shield while he has a nanner out should mean that Lucario loses his stock.
-Player-1 and I play a lot so some of the reads that both of us make are just based on us knowing the hard habits the other uses.
-Vs. Mcpee(wolf)(Tournament)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5oVOX0Yjfo
Notes
-Mcpee actually beat Trela in a game and has poetential in winning against him in a set at whobo. If you haven't seen that video
-Vs. Zero(Marth)(Tournament)
http://youtu.be/nSnfT1D2dwA
Notes
-Only one game recorded.
-I won 2-0
-Vs. Sexy Pit(Pit)(Tournament)
http://youtu.be/gXAySilRHCw
Notes
-Only one game recorded
-I won 2-0
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Hey Hichez,
I am going to a tourney tomorrow and will be able to give you feedback on your videos next week.
Best,
Konrad (QD)
I am going to a tourney tomorrow and will be able to give you feedback on your videos next week.
Best,
Konrad (QD)
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Hichez vs Sexy
0:33 seems like an input error, not sure what you could be reading there.
0:37 I think you limited your landing options by fairing twice the second while landing. Pit made the right read there and caught your landing.
0:50 this fsmash was not spaced. I understand that he rolled in to you but even so he initiated the roll before you began to fsmash and therefore had time to shield. You would have covered more options with a tilt or just assumed that he would roll since he’s near the ledge and feels pressured to try to get to a better position.
1:10 Your way of landing seems very slow and predictable. You seem to be dairing out of habit rather than having a specific intent for dairing (stalling). Dairing is good for baiting or having the opponent waste jumps. But it is not good if your opponent is no where near you because they have more time to position themselves to trap your landing.
2:01 good read but I think against a better player you shouldn’t go so frequently for high risk high reward options. You took a lot of damage before you took his stock. BTW for powershield practice I learned from salem that it is best to go to the stage with the cars running around between the buildings and you can take a green shell and have it bounce between the walls and hit you. You can practice poweshielding the shells there.
2:08 I think you should have a better plan for how to not get hit when your opponent respawns. Your air dodge wasn’t very good because it was high up in the air and you didn’t really gain anything positionally from it. I like either going to the ledge (safest option) or running away then b reversing into air dodge, or just doing nothing and shielding (since your opponent expects you to roll or sidestep or jump usually).
2:35 again I feel like this is not the best way to fsmash. Its spaced this time and it makes sense because he could be approaching you but that’s not really what pit wants to do since he can out camp you. Furthermore I think throwing the move out there so frequently is not the best option since its very punishable (run and shield beats it, pits fsmash beats it, dash attack, a kill move that would have killed you here beats it).
2:51 nice kill
2:59 happens.
3:43 you could have continued the combo with nair or fast fall airdodge into uptilt
3:45 this dsmash made no sense to me. I feel like you throw your smashes out sometimes when you feel the need to but you’re not analyzing whether they are safely spaced or cover options optimally.
4:33 bad fsmash for reasons I mentioned earlier.
4:41 smart aurasphere. Because your opponent can reflect jumping up and shooting the aura sphere is a great option because even if he reflects it you’ll be in a different plane vertically and you won’t get hit.
4:49 well spaced fsmash
4:53 I have no idea what pit is doing. He just randomly ran around, rolled and then did a side B in the opposite direction from you. He’s got some nerve issues to work out. Then he gets fsmashed
Nice game! You have some nice combos and you manage to live to high percents. In this matchup I think you need to power shield much more in order to make the pit feel like he has to approach. This pit was not very intelligent because he approached you even though he clearly was out camping you. Had he stayed away until you were vulnerable to safe kill moves of his (dash attack, bair, cross up glide attack into fsmash) you would have had a harder time facing this player. I think you need to be much more careful with your smashes. Against weak players they are very rewarding of course but they will hold you back against strong players because they will simply wait for you to throw them out and the punish you very hard. You should also work on developing more landing options (smarter dairs, wave bounces, landing with bair, nair, landing force palm grab etcetera.)
0:33 seems like an input error, not sure what you could be reading there.
0:37 I think you limited your landing options by fairing twice the second while landing. Pit made the right read there and caught your landing.
0:50 this fsmash was not spaced. I understand that he rolled in to you but even so he initiated the roll before you began to fsmash and therefore had time to shield. You would have covered more options with a tilt or just assumed that he would roll since he’s near the ledge and feels pressured to try to get to a better position.
1:10 Your way of landing seems very slow and predictable. You seem to be dairing out of habit rather than having a specific intent for dairing (stalling). Dairing is good for baiting or having the opponent waste jumps. But it is not good if your opponent is no where near you because they have more time to position themselves to trap your landing.
2:01 good read but I think against a better player you shouldn’t go so frequently for high risk high reward options. You took a lot of damage before you took his stock. BTW for powershield practice I learned from salem that it is best to go to the stage with the cars running around between the buildings and you can take a green shell and have it bounce between the walls and hit you. You can practice poweshielding the shells there.
2:08 I think you should have a better plan for how to not get hit when your opponent respawns. Your air dodge wasn’t very good because it was high up in the air and you didn’t really gain anything positionally from it. I like either going to the ledge (safest option) or running away then b reversing into air dodge, or just doing nothing and shielding (since your opponent expects you to roll or sidestep or jump usually).
2:35 again I feel like this is not the best way to fsmash. Its spaced this time and it makes sense because he could be approaching you but that’s not really what pit wants to do since he can out camp you. Furthermore I think throwing the move out there so frequently is not the best option since its very punishable (run and shield beats it, pits fsmash beats it, dash attack, a kill move that would have killed you here beats it).
2:51 nice kill
2:59 happens.
3:43 you could have continued the combo with nair or fast fall airdodge into uptilt
3:45 this dsmash made no sense to me. I feel like you throw your smashes out sometimes when you feel the need to but you’re not analyzing whether they are safely spaced or cover options optimally.
4:33 bad fsmash for reasons I mentioned earlier.
4:41 smart aurasphere. Because your opponent can reflect jumping up and shooting the aura sphere is a great option because even if he reflects it you’ll be in a different plane vertically and you won’t get hit.
4:49 well spaced fsmash
4:53 I have no idea what pit is doing. He just randomly ran around, rolled and then did a side B in the opposite direction from you. He’s got some nerve issues to work out. Then he gets fsmashed
Nice game! You have some nice combos and you manage to live to high percents. In this matchup I think you need to power shield much more in order to make the pit feel like he has to approach. This pit was not very intelligent because he approached you even though he clearly was out camping you. Had he stayed away until you were vulnerable to safe kill moves of his (dash attack, bair, cross up glide attack into fsmash) you would have had a harder time facing this player. I think you need to be much more careful with your smashes. Against weak players they are very rewarding of course but they will hold you back against strong players because they will simply wait for you to throw them out and the punish you very hard. You should also work on developing more landing options (smarter dairs, wave bounces, landing with bair, nair, landing force palm grab etcetera.)
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Hichez vs Zero (marth)
0:14 I like the idea to get close then roll away. You can learn a lot how your opponent reacts to your proximity without taking risks in this way.
0:15 since you got the fair in you should go in harder! (airdodge into shield grab or uptilt) rather than air dodge away.
0:16 marth misspaces his grab which yields you an ftilt.
0:46 I think you should strive to find other options than roll when on the ledge. Most good players will be looking out for this since lucario’s roll is famously spammed. Marth can cover this option easily with dsmash, retreating nair/fair, reverse up B OOS, or turn around grab.
0:59 I liked your edge guarding! You mixed up a lot of tilts and aura spheres and managed to out space marth’s nair. I think you have the right idea generally here.
1:08 you’ve wiffed some grabs and generally both of you are playing sloppily. Marth is scared so he’s not trying to out prioritize your aerials which he could do easily if he read you.
1:27 your landing options seem limited. Work on this
1:38 run up and upsmash is not a really great option. Maybe as a hard read vs a character that wants to jump up into it (I actually can’t think of any that would have this tendency) but marth will by default jump into nair or fair off the ledge since that is his safest option. Both of those will beat your up smash since it doesn’t space well horizontally.
2:25 nice ledge drop
3:18 nice kill! Ballsy
Honestly I think this marth didn’t really understand his character or the matchup. You played well though. I think you could try to up b to the ledge from the stage as a tool to gimp him (a lot of marths don’t expect this) Its risky but if you learn to do this you will have powerful results against many characters (olimar, spaceys, ike, etcet).
0:14 I like the idea to get close then roll away. You can learn a lot how your opponent reacts to your proximity without taking risks in this way.
0:15 since you got the fair in you should go in harder! (airdodge into shield grab or uptilt) rather than air dodge away.
0:16 marth misspaces his grab which yields you an ftilt.
0:46 I think you should strive to find other options than roll when on the ledge. Most good players will be looking out for this since lucario’s roll is famously spammed. Marth can cover this option easily with dsmash, retreating nair/fair, reverse up B OOS, or turn around grab.
0:59 I liked your edge guarding! You mixed up a lot of tilts and aura spheres and managed to out space marth’s nair. I think you have the right idea generally here.
1:08 you’ve wiffed some grabs and generally both of you are playing sloppily. Marth is scared so he’s not trying to out prioritize your aerials which he could do easily if he read you.
1:27 your landing options seem limited. Work on this
1:38 run up and upsmash is not a really great option. Maybe as a hard read vs a character that wants to jump up into it (I actually can’t think of any that would have this tendency) but marth will by default jump into nair or fair off the ledge since that is his safest option. Both of those will beat your up smash since it doesn’t space well horizontally.
2:25 nice ledge drop
3:18 nice kill! Ballsy
Honestly I think this marth didn’t really understand his character or the matchup. You played well though. I think you could try to up b to the ledge from the stage as a tool to gimp him (a lot of marths don’t expect this) Its risky but if you learn to do this you will have powerful results against many characters (olimar, spaceys, ike, etcet).
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Hichez vs Mc Pee Pee
0:10 nice pivot grab! I’m still learning how powerful this is (I just grabbed an mk out of a tornado for the first time with a pivot grab!!!)
0:20 Here is a good player who is punishing you for your lack of aerial mobility (no wave bounces, predictable air dodges and no fast falling)
0:29 It seems you’re pretty scared at this point. Not sure if he shield stabs you or whether you just drop your shield but I think you should be aware that hiding in shield is something that high level players love to punish with jab mixups. I think I would have tried dairing out of shield here but I’m not sure if that’s the best option. Trela probably would have side stepped the dsmash (predicted it) and then force palmed him into some epictastic combo.
0:53 It seems you don’t know too many ledge options either. At this percent lucario’s ledge attack is safe (beats tornado) m2k called it the best move in the game when I did it to him a week ago (I’m sure he was joking but the point still holds). If you think wolf wants to approach the ledge you can try to roll to get behind him (not a great option but worth the try) and the best option is probably jump up and fast fall air dodge when you think he can hit you.
1:23 that double team was pretty silly but the way you got yourself out of that situation was well executed.
1:47 again you seem out of ideas. You’re doing pretty much the same thing over and over again.
1:57 Nice b reverse to bair but you used your second jump and you didn’t fast fall anything or stall with dair to mess up the timing of your landing. You seem overwhelmed with his ledge pressure.
You were outplayed this game. Its evident you need to use/know more options for landing.
Game 2 – why would you counterpick to this stage? I’m curious. I usually ban it personally.
3:31 look at all the shenanigans wolf has on this stage. Spaceys in general like this stage from my experience. I don’t think this is a good counterpick.
3:48 to me that double team is a white flag.
4:16 he’s just toying with you now. You’re throwing out all these smashes and he’s just waiting and punishing every time.
4:55 look at how you move and look at how he moves. It looks like he’s just dancing around you and you have no idea where he’s going to hit you next.
You were outclassed. You need to learn more options on the ledge, and while recovering. WAVE BOUNCES will help you get started. Watch the good lucarios and study what they do in response to their opponents. (don’t just look at the lucario to see what move he’s doing, pay attention to what he does in response to the opponent’s position or intent).
Good luck!
0:10 nice pivot grab! I’m still learning how powerful this is (I just grabbed an mk out of a tornado for the first time with a pivot grab!!!)
0:20 Here is a good player who is punishing you for your lack of aerial mobility (no wave bounces, predictable air dodges and no fast falling)
0:29 It seems you’re pretty scared at this point. Not sure if he shield stabs you or whether you just drop your shield but I think you should be aware that hiding in shield is something that high level players love to punish with jab mixups. I think I would have tried dairing out of shield here but I’m not sure if that’s the best option. Trela probably would have side stepped the dsmash (predicted it) and then force palmed him into some epictastic combo.
0:53 It seems you don’t know too many ledge options either. At this percent lucario’s ledge attack is safe (beats tornado) m2k called it the best move in the game when I did it to him a week ago (I’m sure he was joking but the point still holds). If you think wolf wants to approach the ledge you can try to roll to get behind him (not a great option but worth the try) and the best option is probably jump up and fast fall air dodge when you think he can hit you.
1:23 that double team was pretty silly but the way you got yourself out of that situation was well executed.
1:47 again you seem out of ideas. You’re doing pretty much the same thing over and over again.
1:57 Nice b reverse to bair but you used your second jump and you didn’t fast fall anything or stall with dair to mess up the timing of your landing. You seem overwhelmed with his ledge pressure.
You were outplayed this game. Its evident you need to use/know more options for landing.
Game 2 – why would you counterpick to this stage? I’m curious. I usually ban it personally.
3:31 look at all the shenanigans wolf has on this stage. Spaceys in general like this stage from my experience. I don’t think this is a good counterpick.
3:48 to me that double team is a white flag.
4:16 he’s just toying with you now. You’re throwing out all these smashes and he’s just waiting and punishing every time.
4:55 look at how you move and look at how he moves. It looks like he’s just dancing around you and you have no idea where he’s going to hit you next.
You were outclassed. You need to learn more options on the ledge, and while recovering. WAVE BOUNCES will help you get started. Watch the good lucarios and study what they do in response to their opponents. (don’t just look at the lucario to see what move he’s doing, pay attention to what he does in response to the opponent’s position or intent).
Good luck!
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
I don't feel like doing another critique at the moment so maybe I'll do you vs player 1 some other time. I think I gave you some things worth thinking about as a start. good luck!
hichez50
Smash Lord
Thanks man. Don't worry about critiquing me vs. P1. I agree with most of what you said. I really do need to work on my landing options. I try to over analyze these situations. My ledge and landing game are defiantly my weakest areas during these sets.
Before this tournament I was working on wave bounces all week long. I not very good with technical stuff(I have to practice a lot more than the avg. player). I am defiantly aware of them, but execution wasn't high enough for tournament play. Pretty much every random side-B you saw during those games was a missed wavebounce.
Maybe it is just because I'm bad, but wavebounces seemed to be overhyped. They are great mix-up options. In a lot of situations they make your opponet thing you were going to cross them up and they add mobility to lucario's air game, but unless I'm playing MK or someone with super good air options/mobility it just seems like I'm doing a bunch of empty inputs(doing it for the sake of being technical).
Speaking of being technical, I respect what trela does. Many of his movments and attacks cover multiple options. I am constantly stealling things that he does. The whole speed of his game play is what I can't copy though. Sure he has tons of practice, but p
Also you kept saying something about FFairdodge. Well you can FF and air dodge at the same time. So that is just impossible.
Vs. Mcpee he just destroyed me. I did run out of ideas. His pressure game was so good. Any ideas for counterpicks? In retrospect I don't think BF was bad, just not the best choice. I'm thing I should have went back to yoshi's. Frigate was legal at this tournament. Maybe FD? Yeah I also agree that I just need to mix-up my landing/movments vs. him. I was an easy read to him.
Before this tournament I was working on wave bounces all week long. I not very good with technical stuff(I have to practice a lot more than the avg. player). I am defiantly aware of them, but execution wasn't high enough for tournament play. Pretty much every random side-B you saw during those games was a missed wavebounce.
Maybe it is just because I'm bad, but wavebounces seemed to be overhyped. They are great mix-up options. In a lot of situations they make your opponet thing you were going to cross them up and they add mobility to lucario's air game, but unless I'm playing MK or someone with super good air options/mobility it just seems like I'm doing a bunch of empty inputs(doing it for the sake of being technical).
Speaking of being technical, I respect what trela does. Many of his movments and attacks cover multiple options. I am constantly stealling things that he does. The whole speed of his game play is what I can't copy though. Sure he has tons of practice, but p
Also you kept saying something about FFairdodge. Well you can FF and air dodge at the same time. So that is just impossible.
Vs. Mcpee he just destroyed me. I did run out of ideas. His pressure game was so good. Any ideas for counterpicks? In retrospect I don't think BF was bad, just not the best choice. I'm thing I should have went back to yoshi's. Frigate was legal at this tournament. Maybe FD? Yeah I also agree that I just need to mix-up my landing/movments vs. him. I was an easy read to him.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Hey man! Let me try to respond to some of your questions:
Regarding wavebounces: I agree with you that doing them for the sake of being technical makes no sense in competitive play. Wave bounces can be read and can lead to hard punishes. But I'm not suggesting that you do them always, randomly or even the same way. Wave bounces are simply an option you are not utilizing that adds a lot of mobility to lucario's movement. Think about it: You can B reverse while jumping away from your opponent (move in one direction then input the other direction then press B right after) and be creating space between yourself and your opponent while preparing to shoot an aura sphere at them if they try to chase you. example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4 11:07
Check out how trela scores this kill. Because the ASC is so large its hard to tell that lucario changed his direction because you don't see his body. Furthermore trela chose not to wave bounce but just b reverse regularly like I mentioned above. Had he wave bounced that would have given away his change of direction and M2k might have had a faster reaction to the aura sphere.
In my opinion retreating regular b reversals are the best option vs something like tornado because you bait the tornado by turning your back on the opponent but give yourself enough time to react by jumping away.
Next option: the wave bounce. The input for this is the opposite as for the regular b reversal. In this case you press B and then you input the direction that is opposite from the direction your character is facing. The game will read this input as "Neutral B" and then read "direction the character is facing" but it will still remember the relationship between the direction your character is facing and his momentum from the moment the B move input occurred. Here is an example of a use of the wave bounce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo 5:56 Check out how trela avoids marth's invincibility - he platform cancels twice into wave bounce!
Regarding wavebounces: I agree with you that doing them for the sake of being technical makes no sense in competitive play. Wave bounces can be read and can lead to hard punishes. But I'm not suggesting that you do them always, randomly or even the same way. Wave bounces are simply an option you are not utilizing that adds a lot of mobility to lucario's movement. Think about it: You can B reverse while jumping away from your opponent (move in one direction then input the other direction then press B right after) and be creating space between yourself and your opponent while preparing to shoot an aura sphere at them if they try to chase you. example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4 11:07
Check out how trela scores this kill. Because the ASC is so large its hard to tell that lucario changed his direction because you don't see his body. Furthermore trela chose not to wave bounce but just b reverse regularly like I mentioned above. Had he wave bounced that would have given away his change of direction and M2k might have had a faster reaction to the aura sphere.
In my opinion retreating regular b reversals are the best option vs something like tornado because you bait the tornado by turning your back on the opponent but give yourself enough time to react by jumping away.
Next option: the wave bounce. The input for this is the opposite as for the regular b reversal. In this case you press B and then you input the direction that is opposite from the direction your character is facing. The game will read this input as "Neutral B" and then read "direction the character is facing" but it will still remember the relationship between the direction your character is facing and his momentum from the moment the B move input occurred. Here is an example of a use of the wave bounce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo 5:56 Check out how trela avoids marth's invincibility - he platform cancels twice into wave bounce!
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
The next technique is the double b reversal which is basically a combination of the regular b reverse followed by the wave bounce. This is hard to explain but really useful if you can master it. Lets assume that (>,>) means that lucario is moving right and facing right, (<,>) is moving left facing right and so on. Say you're starting out moving right facing right (>,>). A regular b reverse will make you end up like this: (>,<) and a wave bounce will make you end up like this: (<,<). Notice how b reverse changes only the direction that lucario is facing but wavebouncing changes both the direction he is facing and the direction he is moving. Now suppose you want to change JUST the direction he is moving. You can't do that straightforwardly, but you can first change the direction he is facing and then change BOTH the direction he is facing and the direction he is moving. So if you start out (>,>) b reverse yields: (>,<) and then wave bounce reverses both elements: (<,>)
SO the input is the following: if you're moving left facing left you flick the control stick right, then press B, then flick control stick left. The timing of the last two inputs has to be fast (like a wave bounce) but the first two can occur somewhat slower. I know player 1 can do this because I played him on WIFI and seen him do it as lucario. Ask him about it if you need help or you can check out this video if you need help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov-UPi3lar4
Some examples of possible uses are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cYq_qUJRe0h
watch trela's recovery from 2:05
at 2:07 he avoids mk's up air strings with a regular wave bounce into air dodge. At 2:12-2:13 he uses the double b reverse to wave bounce but still be able to face mk and shoot the aura sphere if necessary. Then at 2:19 you have the ideal situation where MK thinks he has all your options covered with his aerials but Trela spaces away and blasts him with the aura sphere thanks to the double b reverse. He then gets back to the stage and basically does a ton of damage.
SO the input is the following: if you're moving left facing left you flick the control stick right, then press B, then flick control stick left. The timing of the last two inputs has to be fast (like a wave bounce) but the first two can occur somewhat slower. I know player 1 can do this because I played him on WIFI and seen him do it as lucario. Ask him about it if you need help or you can check out this video if you need help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov-UPi3lar4
Some examples of possible uses are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cYq_qUJRe0h
watch trela's recovery from 2:05
at 2:07 he avoids mk's up air strings with a regular wave bounce into air dodge. At 2:12-2:13 he uses the double b reverse to wave bounce but still be able to face mk and shoot the aura sphere if necessary. Then at 2:19 you have the ideal situation where MK thinks he has all your options covered with his aerials but Trela spaces away and blasts him with the aura sphere thanks to the double b reverse. He then gets back to the stage and basically does a ton of damage.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Now regarding your other questions:
you seemed to imply that wave bounces are only useful against someone like mk who has good aerial mobility. why would it not be useful against someone who doesn't? You can overwhelm them with your mobility and get around their zones/defenses. You can camp them more effectively, and approach more unpredictably.
by fast fall air dodge I don't mean fast fall and airdodge on the same input. I simply mean air dodge WHILE fast falling. Its your fastest option for getting to the ground consistently when you short hop fair.
As a counter pick vs wolf I would recommend FD or frigate orpheon. But its really a personal thing. For me I counter pick based on what I feel is a problem with the particular opponent. If they are outcamping me I want a smaller stage. If they are juggling me I want a larger stage. If I am getting gimped I am looking for a stage with more recovery options. And so on. I think Frigate would be good, FD, or lylat vs a spacey (spaceys don't like lylat). Yoshi's is also good even though you already lost there.
you seemed to imply that wave bounces are only useful against someone like mk who has good aerial mobility. why would it not be useful against someone who doesn't? You can overwhelm them with your mobility and get around their zones/defenses. You can camp them more effectively, and approach more unpredictably.
by fast fall air dodge I don't mean fast fall and airdodge on the same input. I simply mean air dodge WHILE fast falling. Its your fastest option for getting to the ground consistently when you short hop fair.
As a counter pick vs wolf I would recommend FD or frigate orpheon. But its really a personal thing. For me I counter pick based on what I feel is a problem with the particular opponent. If they are outcamping me I want a smaller stage. If they are juggling me I want a larger stage. If I am getting gimped I am looking for a stage with more recovery options. And so on. I think Frigate would be good, FD, or lylat vs a spacey (spaceys don't like lylat). Yoshi's is also good even though you already lost there.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
also PS 1 is worth looking at
Player-1
Smash Legend
Some terminology corrections.
I think you're confused, QD, about some of the terminology. A turn around B is what you refer to as a b reversal, a b reversal is what you refer to as a wavebounce, and a wavebounce is what you refer to as a double b reversal
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/smash-lab-standard-terms-list.227773/
http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/
I think you're confused, QD, about some of the terminology. A turn around B is what you refer to as a b reversal, a b reversal is what you refer to as a wavebounce, and a wavebounce is what you refer to as a double b reversal
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/smash-lab-standard-terms-list.227773/
http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
Fair enough, I've picked up my use of these terms from other players who have used them the way I have but I stand corrected.
DrSoussou
Smash Journeyman
If you input AD, then input down to FF, nothing happens. You have to input FF, THEN AD.
e.g. SHFair > Hold down to FF > immediately AD
the speed takes some getting used to, but this is 90% why Trela's mobility is better than every other Lucario's. His floatiness is the weakness, and this is the solution.
Off topic, but if you want to link someone to a video at a particular time, just type "#t=XmYs" at the end of the original link. (X is the number of minutes into the video, and Y is the number of seconds)
e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4#t=11m7s
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
cool thanks for the tip!
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
also yeah that fast fall thing you mentioned is exactly what I was talking about. I'm trying to use that in my game much more (air dodge to grab or pivot grab or just jab)
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
would you happen to know how trela manages to force palm OOS so quickly? is there any particular input pattern that he does or is it simply drop shield then input side B?
DrSoussou
Smash Journeyman
As far as I know there's no special trick to FP OoS, you just drop shield and perform the move. If you're referring to the way it can be used very quickly from the air upon landing, that's just a technical thing.
I believe all specials have the capability to come out on Frame 1 if they're buffered from the air into landing, and this applies to Lucario's FP grab as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx7pgggGYto#t=4m52s
Also Konrad, try to take it easy with the double and triple posts lol. Just click edit on the most recent post, if its yours, and add whatever you want to it.
I believe all specials have the capability to come out on Frame 1 if they're buffered from the air into landing, and this applies to Lucario's FP grab as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx7pgggGYto#t=4m52s
Also Konrad, try to take it easy with the double and triple posts lol. Just click edit on the most recent post, if its yours, and add whatever you want to it.
LucarioMaster
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2012
- Messages
- 80
Hi !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_p3tPPhwmY
please ,help me , i have a big tourney soon.
(In this MM i tried a more defensive style and i try new things because i won without any difficulties in freeplay.)
If you want more serious MMs in tournament:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpyTGtCP5k4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4ji7YuRuEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_p3tPPhwmY
please ,help me , i have a big tourney soon.
(In this MM i tried a more defensive style and i try new things because i won without any difficulties in freeplay.)
If you want more serious MMs in tournament:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpyTGtCP5k4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4ji7YuRuEs
hichez50
Smash Lord
General Comments vs. LLS
- On smashville just because the platform is above you doesn't mean you should jump and platform cancel. Seriously you wasted so much emery and potential pressure doing this.
On a similar note chill on tech skill. Your opponet doesn't care if you can do a bunch of fancy stuff it they can read/punish they will.
-Great tech skill. You inspire me to get back into training mode, sort of, I don't like the technical side of fighting games.
- If you are hanging on the ledge and and spacie is under you recovering with UP-B just drop down and fair. It is a free stock. You did this at the very end. I have no idea why you didn't do this ealier.
- @ 12:25 you could have just kept fairing. He would have died and you could have up-B and survided longer then he would have. But very nice kill at the end.
-I can tell the falco isn't experienced. Generally lucario doesn't beat falco at all close range. Pretty much falco's frame 2 jab beat all of our options. So it requires us to use out juggle game. You did a good job with the juggling. Just be aware that top level falco player will play a lot more campier and use jab mixup a lot more.
General Comments vs. Hoejja
- OMG you playstyle is so much different than mine. Holy crap. I just play a extremely campy lucario in this MU. The options you choose were appropriate.
-I think this is the definitive video on how to play aggressive in the DDD MU. Defiantly better showing than trela.
But really you get the award for the most technical lucario. When are you going to come to the states? Apex 2014? I would love to see you at a large tournament. You have inspired my spirit. Keep up the great work.
- On smashville just because the platform is above you doesn't mean you should jump and platform cancel. Seriously you wasted so much emery and potential pressure doing this.
On a similar note chill on tech skill. Your opponet doesn't care if you can do a bunch of fancy stuff it they can read/punish they will.
-Great tech skill. You inspire me to get back into training mode, sort of, I don't like the technical side of fighting games.
- If you are hanging on the ledge and and spacie is under you recovering with UP-B just drop down and fair. It is a free stock. You did this at the very end. I have no idea why you didn't do this ealier.
- @ 12:25 you could have just kept fairing. He would have died and you could have up-B and survided longer then he would have. But very nice kill at the end.
-I can tell the falco isn't experienced. Generally lucario doesn't beat falco at all close range. Pretty much falco's frame 2 jab beat all of our options. So it requires us to use out juggle game. You did a good job with the juggling. Just be aware that top level falco player will play a lot more campier and use jab mixup a lot more.
General Comments vs. Hoejja
- OMG you playstyle is so much different than mine. Holy crap. I just play a extremely campy lucario in this MU. The options you choose were appropriate.
-I think this is the definitive video on how to play aggressive in the DDD MU. Defiantly better showing than trela.
But really you get the award for the most technical lucario. When are you going to come to the states? Apex 2014? I would love to see you at a large tournament. You have inspired my spirit. Keep up the great work.
Konrad-QD
Smash Journeyman
hichez,
do you mean you want me to put everything in one post in the future or do you want me to make a post with everything that I said to you regarding your matches that is already been said?
do you mean you want me to put everything in one post in the future or do you want me to make a post with everything that I said to you regarding your matches that is already been said?