The Legendary Heroes of Galar - Zacian and Zamazenta for Smash

Which would you rather see get in Smash as a newcomer?

  • Zacian

  • Zamazenta


Results are only viewable after voting.

fogbadge

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Terry, alongside Isabelle, is more about acknowledging his mascot status, regardless of demand. Of course, being the mascot isn't everything when Sakurai chose Slime over Hero, but that could do with having a full body rather than just being a head.
hey isabelle is a very popular character from a very popular nintendo franchise, she was not in the same boat as terry
 

Cosmic77

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Yeah, I'm sorry about all this debating. Me and Cosmic clearly can't come to an agreement when he focuses too much on filling out gen quotas while I am insistent on a Pokemon newcomer that'd be the extreme opposite of Incineroar, like Eevee. Or picking one of Gen 7's proper mascots for better reasons than "it's new".
Sometimes you're too opinionated for your own good. The points you try to make here and in other threads tend to come across as, "Incineroar doesn't get as much criticism as it deserves. Stop supporting new Pokemon and rally behind one that's actually worthy of Smash like Eevee."

I've laid out the reasons why I'm fine with Incineroar now. Whether or not you want to believe them is up to you, but you should at least be mindful of those who were genuinely happy with Incineroar. As for why me and several others are supporting new Pokemon instead of older ones, LukeRNG already summarized my feelings. Unless the fanbase can come together and focus on a single Pokemon for a long period time like they did for Ridley and K. Rool, I just can't see them choosing an older Pokemon over a newer one.

I'm leaving it at this, because Incineroar is completely irrelevant to the topic, and I don't think anyone wants another "relevancy vs legacy" debate.

I really do wish for a more interesting pick this time, cause i do think i'll be genuinely underwhelmed by someone like Rillaboom or Cinderace. Inteleon gets a pass for personal bias. Urshifu & Obstagoon i'm more neutral about. And Toxtricity would be the best case scenario from the bipedal perspective.

Pokemon that I could really get behind are Dragapult & Zacian/Zamazenta.
There are a lot of Pokemon outside Zacian and Zamazenta that I'd be happy with. What I want above all else is a Pokemon who can really catch people off guard and open the doors to better discussions in future Smash games. I don't doubt Sakurai's ability to make any of the three Galar starters fun and unique, but they're really boring and predictable choices. Takes a lot of joy out of speculation when we're only looking at three options out of dozens and dozens of new Pokemon in each Gen.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Incineroar doesn't get as much criticism as it deserves.
Unfortunately, it does get plenty of criticism simply for being A Pokemon, rather than THAT Pokemon.
Stop supporting new Pokemon
I don't want you to do that, I want you to have better reasons than their recency. For example, I think Eevee would be better at attracting a new audience to Smash than a gen 8 rep. Third party newcomers aren't solely what was too new for last time, therefore it should be the same for first parties.
What I want above all else is a Pokemon who can really catch people off guard and open the doors to better discussions in future Smash games.
...which would be a Pokemon chosen for having years of popularity rather than newness.
 
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Guynamednelson

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guys guys guys, lets not fight, unless were playing smash or pokemon together
I'll admit I am a hypocrite for this. I pointed out in the Waluigi thread that someone there was just saying they shouldn't support him because we have so many Mario characters already, yet here I am in a gen 8 Pokemon's thread ******** about Smash fans only focusing on that generation. If I'd prefer Eevee I should go there instead, but I need to think of a way to revive that thread. Preferably without defaulting to more Incineroar salt.
 

fogbadge

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I'll admit I am a hypocrite for this. I pointed out in the Waluigi thread that someone there was just saying they shouldn't support him because we have so many Mario characters already, yet here I am in a gen 8 Pokemon's thread ******** about Smash fans only focusing on that generation. If I'd prefer Eevee I should go there instead, but I need to think of a way to revive that thread. Preferably without defaulting to more Incineroar salt.
yeah i should do that with my toad thread
 

Cosmic77

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Here's our new Pokemon, Zarude.


It's...okay. To be honest, it feels like a more violent Rillaboom without the drum. Not really getting that Mythical Pokemon vibe from it just yet.
 

Cosmic77

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And we also got Pokemon of the Year results, Greninja taking the #1 spot. As for our newest gen, here: https://pokemonday.pokemon.co.jp/jp/result/galar/

Zacian is 7th of the Galar monsters.

Here are some of the notable placements:

1. Dragapult
2. Toxtricity
6. Cinderace
7. Zacian
10. Inteleon
11. Sirfetch'd
12. Scorbunny
14. Sobble
16. Falinks
18. Eternatus
20. Grookey
21. Grimmsnarl
22. Zamazenta
28. Obstagoon
29. Rillaboom

Takeaways from this are that...

• Scorbunny is the most popular starter, and Cinderace is the most popular final evo of a starter.
• Grookey is the least popular starter, and Rillaboom is the least popular final evo of a starter.
• Zacian is indeed way more popular than Zamazenta, getting nearly twice as many votes.
 

fogbadge

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Here are some of the notable placements:

1. Dragapult
2. Toxtricity
6. Cinderace
7. Zacian
10. Inteleon
11. Sirfetch'd
12. Scorbunny
14. Sobble
16. Falinks
18. Eternatus
20. Grookey
21. Grimmsnarl
22. Zamazenta
28. Obstagoon
29. Rillaboom

Takeaways from this are that...

• Scorbunny is the most popular starter, and Cinderace is the most popular final evo of a starter.
• Grookey is the least popular starter, and Rillaboom is the least popular final evo of a starter.
• Zacian is indeed way more popular than Zamazenta, getting nearly twice as many votes.
well at least sobble is number 2 of the three
 

LukeRNG

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I was quite suprised by some of the top 10's, but after thinking about it they make sense. It'll be interesting to see for how long Greninja's status as #1 will last. Not complaining for my #3 favorite pokemon though.

Not sure what to say about Zarude: i like the design, but not much else as of now.

It's also interesting to see how the alola pokemon stand vs the alola poll from a few years back.
 

Cosmic77

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As far as Legendaries go, Zacian ended up ranking #5 overall. It was beaten by Rayquaza, Lugia, Mewtwo, and narrowly by Suicune (nearly a 100 vote difference).
 

LukeRNG

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This begs a question in my mind, how likely is it that Sakurai would use this popularity poll (at least for a small percent) to pick a gen 8 pokemon?
 

Cosmic77

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This begs a question in my mind, how likely is it that Sakurai would use this popularity poll (at least for a small percent) to pick a gen 8 pokemon?
If the fighter isn't coming out until next year, it's possible. I remember Sakurai saying the work on F2 and F3 (Hero and Banjo) was being done since launch.

"Right now the team and I are working on the DLC. This includes the already announced Joker from Persona 5, fighter #2, fighter #3 and one more thing. Please look forward to the DLC!"

So it's feasible. He's got a little over a year and nine months before December 2021, and even if that's just a rough estimate, summer 2021 would still work.

If he does use this poll, then it should be interesting to see where things go. Most of our popular options are conveniently in the top 10 (Gen 8).
 

fogbadge

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This begs a question in my mind, how likely is it that Sakurai would use this popularity poll (at least for a small percent) to pick a gen 8 pokemon?
i would see that as possible, theyve given themselves a fairly wide time frame to make these characters, so i dont see why someone from the pokemon of the year couldnt be included beyond sakurai saying no

i would have thought wed get such a character before next year though
 

Staarih

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This begs a question in my mind, how likely is it that Sakurai would use this popularity poll (at least for a small percent) to pick a gen 8 pokemon?
I don’t know if I recall correctly, but weren’t the fighters for Pass 1 chosen/locked in from the start and then Sakurai began to work on them? I wouldn’t be surprised if the same applies for Pass 2, in which case the fighter would already be chosen and this poll wouldn’t have any impact.

Then again, I don’t think it all works out so simply. As mentioned, there’s a whole lot of time for the Pass to roll out so things could change. And even if they’re picked already, Sakurai could go all Greninja/Incineroar and have a spot saved for ”Gen 8 Pokémon” to be determined later, which in turn could utilize any sorts of popularity polls.
 

Cosmic77

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Well, if Sakurai does look at the poll, that's bad news for Rillaboom.

Cinderace - 6th (26,892)
Inteleon - 10th (20 697)
Rillaboom - 29th (8,625)

You could double Rillaboom's votes and it still wouldn't be enough to catch up with Inteleon, let alone Cinderace. Heck, you could triple the votes and Cinderace still wins.

This is part of the reason why I don't think Rillaboom would be a good choice. On top of it clearly being the most complicated of the three, I really don't like how many fans care more about slapping a grass type on the roster than they do getting a Pokemon that's both unique and a good choice to represent the Gen.

That's not to take a hit at anyone who genuinely wants it, because I know there are plenty of people out there who do. I just think those people are in the minority, being mixed in with a bunch of grass type supporters who already decided nine months ago that Grookey's evolution would get their support.
 
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Brodemmars

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Well, if Sakurai does look at the poll, that's bad news for Rillaboom.

Cinderace - 6th (26,892)
Inteleon - 10th (20 697)
Rillaboom - 29th (8,625)

You could double Rillaboom's votes and it still wouldn't be enough to catch up with Inteleon, let alone Cinderace. Heck, you could triple the votes and Cinderace still wins.

This is part of the reason why I don't think Rillaboom would be a good choice. On top of it clearly being the most complicated of the three, I really don't like how many fans care more about slapping a grass type on the roster than they do getting a Pokemon that's both unique and a good choice to represent the Gen.

That's not to take a hit at anyone who genuinely wants it, because I know there are plenty of people out there who do. I just think those people are in the minority, being mixed in with a bunch of grass type supporters who already decided nine months ago that Grookey's evolution would get their support.
And imagine once they release Cinderace's Hidden Ability and Gigantamax form, this would probably be enough to propel Cinderace into Galar's Top 5.

Also in before people start making Smash threads for Zarude and it becomes the new Rillaboom/Urshifu that everyone will want for Smash because people can't see the forest for the trees.
 
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Trevenant

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Well, if Sakurai does look at the poll, that's bad news for Rillaboom.

Cinderace - 6th (26,892)
Inteleon - 10th (20 697)
Rillaboom - 29th (8,625)

You could double Rillaboom's votes and it still wouldn't be enough to catch up with Inteleon, let alone Cinderace. Heck, you could triple the votes and Cinderace still wins.

This is part of the reason why I don't think Rillaboom would be a good choice. On top of it clearly being the most complicated of the three, I really don't like how many fans care more about slapping a grass type on the roster than they do getting a Pokemon that's both unique and a good choice to represent the Gen.

That's not to take a hit at anyone who genuinely wants it, because I know there are plenty of people out there who do. I just think those people are in the minority, being mixed in with a bunch of grass type supporters who already decided nine months ago that Grookey's evolution would get their support.
First off I’d like to support. Very cool looking Pokemon and they’d be cool.

Secondly I guess one of the reasons Rillaboom is advocated stems from his grass type which allows him to have a unique moveset on the roster that no one else has. We only have ivysaur who doesn’t do much with it that would overlap with Rillaboom if he were to get in. IIRC one of the main draws of Incineroar was the unique moveset potential and I’d argue he has the most potential out of the three
 

fogbadge

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First off I’d like to support. Very cool looking Pokemon and they’d be cool.

Secondly I guess one of the reasons Rillaboom is advocated stems from his grass type which allows him to have a unique moveset on the roster that no one else has. We only have ivysaur who doesn’t do much with it that would overlap with Rillaboom if he were to get in. IIRC one of the main draws of Incineroar was the unique moveset potential and I’d argue he has the most potential out of the three
who has the most moveset potential is a matter of opinion, its true sakurai thought incenroar would be more unique but ive never worked out what he was more unique than the others. that i mean is we have no way of knowing who sakurai would see as the most unique
 

Trevenant

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who has the most moveset potential is a matter of opinion, its true sakurai thought incenroar would be more unique but ive never worked out what he was more unique than the others. that i mean is we have no way of knowing who sakurai would see as the most unique
Not really though. Moveset potential is judged by how much they have to work with in their source material. The only possible reason it could boil down to opinion is if they don’t acknowledge everything a character can do or it’s a character like Captain Falcon who has to have their moveset largely made up.
 

Pokelego999

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Well, if Sakurai does look at the poll, that's bad news for Rillaboom.

Cinderace - 6th (26,892)
Inteleon - 10th (20 697)
Rillaboom - 29th (8,625)

You could double Rillaboom's votes and it still wouldn't be enough to catch up with Inteleon, let alone Cinderace. Heck, you could triple the votes and Cinderace still wins.

This is part of the reason why I don't think Rillaboom would be a good choice. On top of it clearly being the most complicated of the three, I really don't like how many fans care more about slapping a grass type on the roster than they do getting a Pokemon that's both unique and a good choice to represent the Gen.

That's not to take a hit at anyone who genuinely wants it, because I know there are plenty of people out there who do. I just think those people are in the minority, being mixed in with a bunch of grass type supporters who already decided nine months ago that Grookey's evolution would get their support.
Yeah, as the rillaboom thread owner, it's not just about the grass stuff (that's part of it) people were supporting for many different reasons. This honestly is very stereotypical. It's like if any grass starter is wanted, people will think we're doing it because we just want grass. It's honestly hard to show rillabooms good points when this is being thrown in.
 

Trevenant

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Yeah, as the rillaboom thread owner, it's not just about the grass stuff (that's part of it) people were supporting for many different reasons. This honestly is very stereotypical. It's like if any grass starter is wanted, people will think we're doing it because we just want grass. It's honestly hard to show rillabooms good points when this is being thrown in.
To be fair it’s not too surprising when you have people saying they want them only to represent some fan made obligatory quota. I was originally of the opinion that it was a stereotype but then I saw people’s reasoning as to why they wanted it and then it was confirmed that it was no longer the smash community doing the standard you’d expect which is jumping the gun. Lots of people really only look at Rillaboom because of the quota they want filled but to be fair they probably didn’t adopt it themselves. They probably just got it rubbed off on them
 

Cosmic77

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Yeah, as the rillaboom thread owner, it's not just about the grass stuff (that's part of it) people were supporting for many different reasons. This honestly is very stereotypical. It's like if any grass starter is wanted, people will think we're doing it because we just want grass. It's honestly hard to show rillabooms good points when this is being thrown in.
Like I said before, I know there are several people who are genuine.

But would you be able to convince me that it would be just as popular if it were a fire type? Would it still be requested more frequently than Cinderace or Inteleon if it were a grass type but not a starter? Personally, I don't believe it. This is the third time in a row where the grass type starter was the the most requested starter for Smash, and unlike the first two, Rillaboom is clearly not the most popular starter within the Pokemon fanbase. There's a lot of evidence pointing to it being the least popular.

Maybe I'm being a little too critical, but I don't like this direction people are taking. Pokemon like Cinderace and Inteleon shouldn't be ignored just because we already have a starter of their type on the roster, and grass type starters like Rillaboom shouldn't get support simply for existing. Pokemon Trainer is a thing, so there's really no need for this "rep the full starter triangle" agenda.
 
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fogbadge

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Not really though. Moveset potential is judged by how much they have to work with in their source material. The only possible reason it could boil down to opinion is if they don’t acknowledge everything a character can do or it’s a character like Captain Falcon who has to have their moveset largely made up.
potential was the wrong word, what i was meaning was who would be more unique is a matter of opinion
 

Pokelego999

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Like I said before, I know there are several people who are genuine.

But would you be able to convince me that it would be just as popular if it were a fire type? Would it still be requested more frequently than Cinderace or Inteleon if it were a grass type but not a starter? Personally, I don't believe it. This is the third time in a row where the grass type starter was the the most requested starter for Smash, and unlike the first two, Rillaboom is clearly not the most popular starter within the Pokemon fanbase. There's a lot of evidence pointing to it being the least popular.

Maybe I'm being a little too critical, but I don't like this direction people are taking. Pokemon like Cinderace and Inteleon shouldn't be ignored just because we already have a starter of their type on the roster, and grass type starters like Rillaboom shouldn't get support simply for existing. Pokemon Trainer exists, so there's really no need for this "rep the full starter triangle" agenda.
Cinderace and Intelon aren't being ignored, they've got pretty large support (which I can say as being the cinderace thread owner) Rillaboom's support has declined a lot since being introduced, while Cinderace and Intelon are going up.
 

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I've never liked relying on popularity as an argument for inclusion. Not only is it subjective and prone to changing over time, Sakurai tends not to use it as the deciding factor for who gets chosen when there're several viable options from a game or series.

That said, he also doesn't choose characters to complete sets or fill arbitrary quotas or...okay, he very rarely does so, which makes the "we need a Grass starter to complete the set" argument flimsy from the start.

Pokémon's in a weird spot. Gen 7 support during speculation of Ultimate's base roster revolved around 3-4 characters. Gen 6 talk during Smash 4 speculation hardly happened at all, with the majority expecting them to prioritize bringing Mewtwo back with a new Mega form. But right now? You have all three Galar starters seeing support, multiple non-starters getting attention from Pokémon fans who want to see more variety, and even anti-support from people dissatisfied with Sword & Shield's creative decisions and from people who see Gen 8 as getting in the way of making more big name third party crossovers happen.

Uncharted ground, this is. Though a second season of DLC is itself new for Smash, so I suppose it comes with the territory.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I've never liked relying on popularity as an argument for inclusion. Not only is it subjective and prone to changing over time, Sakurai tends not to use it as the deciding factor for who gets chosen when there're several viable options from a game or series.
Except with DLC, it does seem to be a major factor. We have:

:4mewtwo::4lucas::4feroy:: Some of the most popular missing veterans
:4ryu:: The game that was a massive phenomenon that put fighters on the map
:4cloud:: The most popular Final Fantasy
:4bayonetta:: A top ballot request, particularly in Europe
:ultjoker:: Atlus' most successful game
:ulthero:: A massive phenomenon in Japan, with certain Heroes being options to help with his regional appeal
:ultbanjokazooie:: Ballot request, N64 icon
:ult_terry:: SNK's most popular character and their mascot
 

Cosmic77

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I've never liked relying on popularity as an argument for inclusion. Not only is it subjective and prone to changing over time, Sakurai tends not to use it as the deciding factor for who gets chosen when there're several viable options from a game or series.
Obviously I don't think popularity should be the deciding factor, but I do feel like Sakurai should at least aim for a Pokemon who's somewhat popular within the fanbase. Do I think Orbeetle, Coalossal, Duraludon would be unique? Absolutely. Does that mean I think they would be good choices? Not at all. I don't think they'd do Gen VIII justice.

I'm not saying the Pokemon has to be the most popular one from Gen VIII, but someone close to the top 10 or 20 would be nice.
 

fogbadge

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A top ballot request, particularly in Europe
allegedly

Obviously I don't think popularity should be the deciding factor, but I do feel like Sakurai should at least aim for a Pokemon who's somewhat popular within the fanbase. Do I think Orbeetle, Coalossal, Duraludon would be unique? Absolutely. Does that mean I think they would be good choices? Not at all. I don't think they'd do Gen VIII justice.

I'm not saying the Pokemon has to be the most popular one from Gen VIII, but someone close to the top 10 or 20 would be nice.
really? i think those three would be great inclusions
 

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really? i think those three would be great inclusions
I'm sure it's about how those pokemon aren't anywhere near being the face of Sword & Shield. And i've seen many people not liking any of them, especially Coalossal. I'd be down for having Duraludon, but i'm not feeling it either.

Looking at the argument, it'd be like if instead of getting Greninja for gen 6, we instead got Malamar. Or if we got Golisopod for gen 7. Both mons would be awesome to see, but wouldn't necessarily represent their generation the best.
I'm not fully on board with this mindset, but many people (including the dev team) have this mindset. Maybe not #1 most popular, but at least top 10 from the newer pokemon.
 

fogbadge

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I'm sure it's about how those pokemon aren't anywhere near being the face of Sword & Shield. And i've seen many people not liking any of them, especially Coalossal. I'd be down for having Duraludon, but i'm not feeling it either.

Looking at the argument, it'd be like if instead of getting Greninja for gen 6, we instead got Malamar. Or if we got Golisopod for gen 7. Both mons would be awesome to see, but wouldn't necessarily represent their generation the best.
I'm not fully on board with this mindset, but many people (including the dev team) have this mindset. Maybe not #1 most popular, but at least top 10 from the newer pokemon.
thats a shame i like coalossoal. theres the thing who is the face of this gen? though i wonder what the chances of us getting someone from the top ten.

lets see top ten going by the pokemon of the year vote are: dragapult, toxtricity, corviknight (who seemed to be on everyones teams), snom, alcremie, cinderace, zacian, yamper, wooloo and intelleon. i could get behind most of them and id be very impressed id they could make snom a fighter
 

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thats a shame i like coalossoal. theres the thing who is the face of this gen? though i wonder what the chances of us getting someone from the top ten.

lets see top ten going by the pokemon of the year vote are: dragapult, toxtricity, corviknight (who seemed to be on everyones teams), snom, alcremie, cinderace, zacian, yamper, wooloo and intelleon. i could get behind most of them and id be very impressed id they could make snom a fighter
Could be premature, but I don't think we're getting Snom, Alcremie, Yamper, or Wooloo. On the fence with Corviknight, but I'm leaning toward no as well.

The other five, Dragapult, Toxtricity, Cinderace, Zacian, and Inteleon, are all Pokemon who I think are worth serious consideration.
 

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thats a shame i like coalossoal. theres the thing who is the face of this gen? though i wonder what the chances of us getting someone from the top ten.

lets see top ten going by the pokemon of the year vote are: dragapult, toxtricity, corviknight (who seemed to be on everyones teams), snom, alcremie, cinderace, zacian, yamper, wooloo and intelleon. i could get behind most of them and id be very impressed id they could make snom a fighter
It's many people saying it looks too much like other rock types like Golem, Aggron & Rhyperior, but bland. Or that the eyes look goofy, and that they should've kept Rolycoly's eyes. And people were expecting a locomotive as a final evolution.

And judging by recent character additions, they seem to be avoiding small characters (not including veterans like Pichu & Squirtle) as often as possible. And given that many of the favorite pokemon are the ones that look cool or tough, they seem to gravitate towards them while avoiding the cute ones who, more often than not, happen to be small.
They could've easily picked Rowlet as a character given it's popularity, but as far as we know the 2 candidates were Decidueye & Incineroar.
 

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And judging by recent character additions, they seem to be avoiding small characters (not including veterans like Pichu & Squirtle) as often as possible. And given that many of the favorite pokemon are the ones that look cool or tough, they seem to gravitate towards them while avoiding the cute ones who, more often than not, happen to be small.
They're kind of in a weird spot. On the roster side of things the Smash fandom focuses on what's fully evolved, while competitive players think :ultpikachu::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur: and for a while :ultpichu: are the best Pokemon to play as competitively, and Mewtwo has spent most of its Smash life in competitive mediocrity except post-patch 4.
 
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Staarih

Smash Champion
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They could've easily picked Rowlet as a character given it's popularity, but as far as we know the 2 candidates were Decidueye & Incineroar.
To me, it would be really refreshing to have a small, cute Pokémon get in again. One of the reasons I was rooting for Mimikyu for Ultimate (and turns out it still is the most popular Alola mon haha). I guess it’s just easier to go with the ”cool” final stages when choosing a Pokémon, especially when they’re chosen before the Gen is fully out and actual popularity is yet to be determined. If waited a bit longer, maybe Rowlet would’ve been a good candidate as well - a round, plush, flying ball of grass could’ve been quite fun actually.

Not sure if Galar has a standout cutesy Pokémon though, except for the starters (Scorbunny the most). Wooloo, Snom maybe too, sure, but how they would be translated into Smash, I’m not sure.

Also, Coalossal and its evolutionary line is like my new favorite Rock-type so here’s at least one new fan haha!
 
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