Official The Lean Mean Green Machine - Luigi Gameplay Discussion

GreenFlame

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Hey, if you're good, you can go d-throw > d-air spike > d-air spike. It starts working at about 50-60% on Mario. It's fun, and I want to do more tests to see what uses we could get from it.

Here's pictures from SmashWiki of the hitboxes of Luigi's d-air from Brawl, showing where the meteor smashing one is (it's the circle that has the line in it). It should be the same in Smash 4 if they didn't change it:


 
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Yonder

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Testing out the D throw to up B...sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So I can't draw a consensus on whether it's viable or now. I hit Rosalina and Link with it, yes whiff against characters like Pit and Pikachu. Idk.
 

GreenFlame

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Testing out the D throw to up B...sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So I can't draw a consensus on whether it's viable or now. I hit Rosalina and Link with it, yes whiff against characters like Pit and Pikachu. Idk.
It is definitely viable, but I'm not sure if it's unescapeable. According to Lil' Gerald's guide on Luigi it doesn't work on Bowser because his hitstun is too low.

It seems like a very good way to set up for an almost guaranteed - if not fully guaranteed - Fire Jump Punch. Once you know where the sweetspot is you can practice it and you will find you're able to land it very consistently. Luigi's d-throw to up-b seems to be among his best kill setups, so it's something we have to take full advantage of.
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

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Im not a fan of dthrow up b to be perfectly honest. Aerial up b kills at around 110-115 and it's so difficult to hit with that it's almost not worth it. You get punished hard if you whiff it.. might as well get them with a pivot upsmash or a good fsmash or sweetspot bair or something. Maybe even a good aerial nado punish.

If youre confident about it, go for it. I just dont think its worth the risk
 

GreenFlame

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Im not a fan of dthrow up b to be perfectly honest. Aerial up b kills at around 110-115 and it's so difficult to hit with that it's almost not worth it. You get punished hard if you whiff it.. might as well get them with a pivot upsmash or a good fsmash or sweetspot bair or something. Maybe even a good aerial nado punish.

If youre confident about it, go for it. I just dont think its worth the risk
It's situational. There isn't really a risk if you practice it though, because it's guaranteed (I think) to hit. Plus, even if it doesn't kill, that's a free 20% on them and if they're at mid percent they'll fly high enough to give Luigi time to recover from the move. It's just one of Luigi's setups that he can use, and it's got it's uses.

What better kill options do you have from a d-throw at high percents? This one is a guaranteed (I think) setup for a kill move.
 

Exceladon City

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I don't really see this as a very good reason to quit Luigi. I mean one small (though I will admit, noticeable) nerf to his recovery and you quite the whole character? If you truly liked playing the character, wouldn't you be able to look past that and see all the good points he's got now like his epic down-throw?
The vertical rise on his cyclone is pretty ****ty now and not having the extra option to recover to the ledge is perfect grounds for dropping him. Especially when characters like Little Mac (Jolt Haymaker is better than it is credited), Pikachu, Spacies and a handful of other characters have more than one recovery option. Being forced to jump to recover in a game where edgeguarding is stronger and ledgeplay is weaker means Luigi will not have very much longevity in this game. He still has a hard time approaching and if he can be kept out and invariably forced offstage, he's going to lose so much harder than he did in Brawl. Luigi had a much better offstage game in Brawl than he does in this game. Sorry, I don't feel like moving that mountain again in this game.
 
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ThegreatVaporeon1

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It's situational. There isn't really a risk if you practice it though, because it's guaranteed (I think) to hit. Plus, even if it doesn't kill, that's a free 20% on them and if they're at mid percent they'll fly high enough to give Luigi time to recover from the move. It's just one of Luigi's setups that he can use, and it's got it's uses.

What better kill options do you have from a d-throw at high percents? This one is a guaranteed (I think) setup for a kill move.
It's not guaranteed. You have to be able to read your opponent's DI in order to get the up b, and you have to act fast. If you are able to get that read, then by all means go for it. It's just not worth the risk
 

ThunderSt0rm

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So apparently we have kill set ups from dthrow, but they are dependent on weight/fall speed. Thunder and I were discussing this at KTAR XI. Some characters can be killed by dthrow to cyclone and some characters (mostly big characters) are easy to catch with the dthrow to up b.
I fooled around with it more when I got home and figured it out. For dthrow>cyclone to fully connect, you have to space cyclone correctly when you start it or you'll catch them in the hitboxes that send them mostly downward (aka your spiking hitboxes you've been messing with) resulting in them falling out of the move.

After the dthrow, jump past them and try catching them with the side hitbox when you start cyclone. After that, just completely hold the direction you were moving in while continuing to rise and it should work. If you notice you did it incorrectly, it's still possible to salvage the combo by mashing only enough to keep them in cyclone but it won't kill as early due to being lower when the last hit connects. I can try getting a video up sometime later demonstrating both outcomes etc.

Also dthrow>upb is pretty real. My feelings on it mirrored Vaporeon until I started actually being patient with it instead of trying once and dismissing it. I have my R button set to special so spacing myself correctly to hit with it is pretty easy as I can focus my thumb to only jumping when going for it. Keep in mind that using your double jump to position yourself for the upb greatly helps, whether you'd need the extra height or to get a better timing for doing it (if that makes sense).

I still need to play more human opponents to experiment dthrow>upb, but DI shouldn't be a huge issue. Most times I just react to the angle/direction they're sent from dthrow and position myself thr best I can.
 
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Swoops

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Also dthrow>upb is pretty real. My feelings on it mirrored Vaporeon until I started actually being patient with it instead of trying once and dismissing it. I have my R button set to special so spacing myself correctly to hit with it is pretty easy as I can focus my thumb to only jumping when going for it. Keep in mind that using your double jump to position yourself for the upb greatly helps, whether you'd need the extra height or to get a better timing for doing it (if that makes sense).

I still need to play more human opponents to experiment dthrow>upb, but DI shouldn't be a huge issue. Most times I just react to the angle/direction they're sent from dthrow and position myself thr best I can.
This x 1000.

I'm not trying to say that DThrow > UpB is God's gift to the Green Plumber. That would be ridiculous. But I think it is equally if not more ridiculous to say that because the opponent can DI within a certain range, it's not worth it to fully master and apply this. I don't think it will all of the sudden bump Luigi up to top tier...but immediately dismissing this is downright detrimental.

You don't always have to risk the UpB if you don't think you'll land the combo, you can always easily go for a BAir/FAir combo if you feel hesitant. But this is basically a kill throw from most anywhere on stage at 80-110%, with Luigi's awesome dash grab. That's something on Ness levels, even if it is more difficult. If your playing Luigi without mastering it I think you're doing yourself a disservice.
 

Yonder

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Yep, 80-110% is the magical number for D throw to up B. Anything more or less leaves to a miss or a major punish.

Anyways, some Pac Man match up pointers:

+You can use the fire hydrant to your advantage soooooo much here to approach. I used it one match to push me close enough for a Forward smash on the other side of the stage.

-You CANNOT use dair spike here. Everytime you do while he recovers, it will spike Pac Man right into the trampoline to bounce him right back up.

+ Fire balls nullify keys at a far distance


Also, dair spike is getting easier to land too. A fast falling dair offstage will like 90% of the time.


Just some food for though.
 

GreenFlame

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Yep, 80-110% is the magical number for D throw to up B. Anything more or less leaves to a miss or a major punish.

Anyways, some Pac Man match up pointers:

+You can use the fire hydrant to your advantage soooooo much here to approach. I used it one match to push me close enough for a Forward smash on the other side of the stage.

-You CANNOT use dair spike here. Everytime you do while he recovers, it will spike Pac Man right into the trampoline to bounce him right back up.

+ Fire balls nullify keys at a far distance


Also, dair spike is getting easier to land too. A fast falling dair offstage will like 90% of the time.


Just some food for though.
Seems useful. What else can you say about the match-up? I haven't played it yet.
 

Yonder

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Seems useful. What else can you say about the match-up? I haven't played it yet.
Eh, I just felt like pointing out key points from my match on for glory. Not much else I can add aside from hydrant ruining rising tornados for kills and recovery. I could throw out a rough number of 55:45 Pac man, no higher.

Also, I landed D throw to up B 4/6 times today. There's definitely something there, I just think we need to collaborate and find out the percentages in which it will land on characters.

Also, hypothetically, think it is inescapable with Easy uppercut? I know the kill % would be useless, but the hitbox would be massive.
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

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I still need to play more human opponents to experiment dthrow>upb, but DI shouldn't be a huge issue. Most times I just react to the angle/direction they're sent from dthrow and position myself thr best I can.
I think you're forgetting that the window for that up b is very strict, so DI plays a big role here so you can position yourself accordingly and swiftly. Dthrow up b is fine, it's just that its very risky to do. But if you are confident that you will land it, then by all means go for it. I'm working on it, as well, and hopefully it should be easier to land the more I play.
 
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Yonder

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Hmm. Seems people are starting to change their opinion on Luigi a bit in the competitive thread.

Honestly, my view of Luigi has brightened up a bit ever since the patch. Initially I thought he only got a single percent on his F smash but those other subtle buffs like F and D smash KO power increase, and Uppercut hitbox increase [Fair hitbox increase too but who cares about that lol] and working magic. I think I still like Brawl Luigi a tad more for the recovery and kill power, but the combos with Luigi make the gap smaller by the day. [Hated Melee Luigi sans wavedash, fair, and dair. 64 Luigi was horrifically bad]. I feel like Luigi is much less predictable in this game myself. He has top of the screen tornado kills, D throw to up b kills, dair spike kills...all 3 people usually never see coming.

Also, is it sad I've only seen 2 Luigis in about 300 glory matches? Sigh. Too busy being swarmed by Falcon [The most], Jigglypuff, ZSS, Sheik, Marth, Lucina, [Oddly few Rosalina, but still some].
 

zhao_guang

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http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/592822158 from the streamlast night boss played luigi pretty much the whole way through. Idk if my eyes were playing tricks on me but it looked like he was rising from the cyclone without using a jump. Are we just not fast enough at mashing? lol
Was just about to post this. Every Luigi main should study the hell out of his videos. Like Brawl, I expect him to be just a cut above other Luigi players. Get to dissecting, troops!
 

BlueBirdE

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I dont have a gcc adapter yet i was able to mess with tthe controls and change the layout of the qii u game oad to have multiple special buttons. Are we sure we cant do the same on a gcc? maybe thats how he did it
 

lijero13ss

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Was just about to post this. Every Luigi main should study the hell out of his videos. Like Brawl, I expect him to be just a cut above other Luigi players. Get to dissecting, troops!
Yeah i saw him lose his second jump when Sonic hit him with the spring, yet when he cycloned, he still managed to go upwards. I have no idea how he did this. This will be useful to learn.
 

Luigisama

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I can't tell if he jumped or if he just did up b. The only thing I see him do is side b and then he gets hit by the spring. Even if he did it without jump ship on lylat is tiliting towards him allowing him to re grab ledge.
 

ThunderSt0rm

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This x 1000.

I'm not trying to say that DThrow > UpB is God's gift to the Green Plumber. That would be ridiculous. But I think it is equally if not more ridiculous to say that because the opponent can DI within a certain range, it's not worth it to fully master and apply this. I don't think it will all of the sudden bump Luigi up to top tier...but immediately dismissing this is downright detrimental.

You don't always have to risk the UpB if you don't think you'll land the combo, you can always easily go for a BAir/FAir combo if you feel hesitant. But this is basically a kill throw from most anywhere on stage at 80-110%, with Luigi's awesome dash grab. That's something on Ness levels, even if it is more difficult. If your playing Luigi without mastering it I think you're doing yourself a disservice.
That's actually funny because boss said to me that dthrow>upb was exactly that.

And obviously don't risk it if you aren't confident with the followup, but keep in mind that unless you're at high percent then the punish won't be as severe. Just go with cyclone if you wanna be safer.
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

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I've learned that down throw > down b works on floaty characters at higher percents. Whereas fast fallers fall straight down (slowly so its not a spike). I was testing this on DDD and Bowser who fell straight down after two hits of cyclone and then tested it on Luigi and Rosalina who died off the top.

Just something to bear in mind for a kill option
 
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Yonder

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I've learned that down throw > down b works on floaty characters at higher percents. Whereas fast fallers fall straight down (slowly so its not a spike). I was testing this on DDD and Bowser who fell straight after two hits of cyclone and then tested it on Luigi and Rosalina who died off the top.

Just something to bear in mind for a kill option
Rosalina is REALLY easy to land it on.

I like how people are pulling 360s on Luigi's viability now thanks to tourney results.
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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Can someone do a quick rundown of when it's possible to rise with the Cyclone? My mashing only allows me to rise from the ground and rise as I do a double jump.
 

Lavani

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Can someone do a quick rundown of when it's possible to rise with the Cyclone? My mashing only allows me to rise from the ground and rise as I do a double jump.
Any time, as long as you're mashing fast enough. But you need to be mashing really fast to rise out of a fall.

Us mortals that can't mash 14 times per second need to burn our double jump before cyclone to rise with it.
 

STiCKYBULL3TZ

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So you're saying as long as you have upward momentum you don't have to mash ridiculously to rise with it?
 

Lavani

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So you're saying as long as you have upward momentum you don't have to mash ridiculously to rise with it?
Right, it takes Luigi's momentum into account, so it's easier to rise if you're already moving upward before using it.
 

DJ Delta

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I feel like what to do after up b is varies depending on matchup, situation, percent, etc. When I was playing in a tournament last week, I would do fair to get some stage control, dair if I was close to the ledge, or up b, if they seemed to travel straight up, anything else and it's kind of tough with Luigi's poor airspeed. Also the up b hitbox is on his fist not his elbow like in brawl, sorry if I already mentioned this before.
Also a couple of things about cyclone. If your going for a ceiling kill its best to taper off mashing towards the end of it or else the final hit won't connect. Also cyclone can trade with recovery moves with a hitbox such as Marth and Little Mac and will semi-spike them. I saw Mr. Concon gimping people with cyclone outright, but it probably has to do with his insanely good mashing ability.
 

BlueBirdE

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Out of curiosity what is the proper way to mash this out? are they using only their thumbs or does it require extra fingers?
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

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Out of curiosity what is the proper way to mash this out? are they using only their thumbs or does it require extra fingers?
Since Smash 4 u has individual button detection for simultaneous button press, I'm assuming some people might use two different buttons for "special." I really cant see anyone using solely one button, unless you have insane mashing skills.
 

Donyoku

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Since Smash 4 u has individual button detection for simultaneous button press, I'm assuming some people might use two different buttons for "special." I really cant see anyone using solely one button, unless you have insane mashing skills.
Wait, timeout. Really? There is detection for simultaneous button presses now? So assume you only have one button detection as in previous games, how fast am I pressing this button? Is it less stressful than melee or are we back to melee mashing for lift? Also, using at gcc what two buttons would you even set for your special? I feel the L & R triggers would be too slow and using the d-pad would require some weird hand placements. I could possibly see an B & Z combo but, I don't have a Wii U to test it on at the moment.
 

ThegreatVaporeon1

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Wait, timeout. Really? There is detection for simultaneous button presses now? So assume you only have one button detection as in previous games, how fast am I pressing this button? Is it less stressful than melee or are we back to melee mashing for lift? Also, using at gcc what two buttons would you even set for your special? I feel the L & R triggers would be too slow and using the d-pad would require some weird hand placements. I could possibly see an B & Z combo but, I don't have a Wii U to test it on at the moment.
I should've put "assuming" instead of "since" in the beginning. Well in melee you could have different button detections for simultaneous presses on buttons, which is how some people wavedashed out of shield. And I'm assuming in brawl, the button detection was the same, relatively.
B and Z works, while setting grab to X/Y. Although I think B and Y/X for specials is the better option; it'll make mashing easier imo, just have to set your hands in an awkward position, which will take practice to get used to, I guess.
 

GreenFlame

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Some really good Luigi gameplay by False.
WOAH. Gosh, that was epic ot watch. A FJP to finish both matches? Wow. So much skill.

And I like how nice the fireball looks on the Wii U version.
 
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