Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits. Farewell Everyone, Thank You ALL For Making This Thread An Excellent Place For DK Fans!

[InASnowBoundLand]

Dixie as an echo...

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Dixie as an echo...

Dixie as a Mii Costume....

 

[BirthNote]

And we went so long without seeing the Echo possibility...

 

[BravadoMan_13]

Dixie as an echo...

Dixie as a Mii Costume....
View attachment 235884

Dixie as an Assist Trophy...

 

[TheYungLink]

We're still hoping for a miracle where Dixie gets in as an Isabelle style semi-clone, but as an Echo Fighter I'm mixed. If they go the Ken route and differentiate her plenty despite the Echo Fighter labeling, I could maybe jive with it, especially if it pulled a Chrom and changed one of her special moves (her up special, obviously).

ChronoBound opened me up to the idea of Dixie being that differentiated of an Echo Fighter, but we still fear the possibility that they might just not go the extra mile Dixie needs, so we're holding out for at least semi-clone.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

i still maintain that dixie kong would be a semi-clone at worst. idk why but i just have a feeling wouldn't go the echo route for dixie specifically.

 

[DeniroSerafim]

I think that if Sakurai wanted Dixie to be an echo, she would already be in the game as one.

 

[ze9]

I really can't see Dixie as an echo, and I really can't see them making additional characters before the Pass is over.
I think Dixie's chances hinge on one thing: if they want to do more DLC after character #5. In that case, them deciding to capitalize again on the thirst for Rare stuff with a (probably) relatively easy character to develop, even as a semi-clone/fully original, may not be a long shot.
But we can only wait and see. In the meantime I hope #4 and #5 will be good choices.

 

[Sabertooth]

What if Dixie got in, but as a stage?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I think that if Sakurai wanted Dixie to be an echo, she would already be in the game as one.

I think that if Sakurai wanted Dixie to be an echo playable character, she would already be in the game as one.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

What if Dixie got in, but as a stage?

That already happened it was called "Stage Builder" it happened when Joker dropped.

As for an echo. I honestly just want Dixie in the game regardless. Echo, semi-clone, full blown newcomer, 2nd coming of Jesus that completely breaks Ultimate in half due to how OP she is, idc. I want my Dixie Kong amiibo dammit!

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

"Dixie Kong will not be and should not be an echo fighter."

 

[Toady]

Listen, I would love for her to be a full blown character. But there was a lot of evidence that pointed to Diddy being modified to fit as someone with an echo, and I don't think Dixie has the popularity of a lot of the bombshell characters they could do which makes her less likely for taking a full DLC spot.

I would take Echo representation over nothing (or a Mii hat lol).

Just trying to be realistically optimistic.

EDIT: For the record, I'm 100% assuming she would have DK's Up B.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

bottom line i would be elated to be able to play as dixie in smash even as an echo but i would always feel like she should have been more.

she deserves to be a unique character and its a sucky situation where she has to settle for less.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

"Dixie Kong will not be and should not be an echo fighter."

Pairing Dixie with Kiddy Kong would be an even greater insult than her being an echo.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

Dixie shouldn't be 1-1 partner with Kiddy; Dixie is her own character. But Kiddy being used for certain attacks like a weapon makes sense.

The thing about Dixie as an echo doesn't seem realistic at all. First of all, we don't really have any indication an echo pack or bonus echo is coming.
Second, Dixie Kong doesn't make sense as an echo either. Her gameplay difference is embedded into her design with the huge ponytail hanging off of her head. She is a major character in the DK games and decently requested. I think it's possible she is a semi unique character but I really doubt she will ever be an echo.

It seems to me actually one of the most unrealistic predictions or desires. It seems like some sort of fan self-flagellation that if you dilute your desire for Dixie enough, Sakurai will listen.

And to be honest, there's a lot of grumbles sometimes here about Dixie Kong not having as vocal a fanbase as some characters like Bandana Dee (Marx is the better Kirby choice). Do you really think "let's get Dixie Kong, the echo character!!" would get more people excited about Dixie? I think we need to aim higher than that. It's called branding.

 

[BirthNote]

Well, I guess it's been long enough in the discussion cycle for the Echo topic to show up, so here we go again.

I'm gonna reiterate my stance that No, I'm not OK with Dixie being an Echo; for the longest she's been written off as "Girl Diddy" who if unable to get in at her boyfriend's side should only be a clone to not take more "deserving" spots. Her most obvious asset--her versatile ponytail--has been brushed aside for shoehorned proposals to substitute Diddy's tail attacks, ignoring the fact that Diddy only had 2 tail moves to begin with (Infinite Jab and Ledge Attack), but now only has one (which you'll rarely see). Meanwhile Dixie relies on her hair far more than Diddy does with his tail. Diddy doesn't grab with his hair, Diddy doesn't throw with it; he doesn't float/swim/glide with it; he barely attacks with it. Diddy isn't known for his tail and its myriad features, but Dixie is known for the versatility of her hair. A moveset that doesn't reflect a heavy hair-oriented moveset won't feel like Dixie.

I've noticed she's been devalued since the Brawl Speculation days, with the prevailing thought that clone is all she can accomplish. While that has died down, the Echo branding made it cool to want what we once called clones, bringing us back to square one's criticism except this time we're expected to be grateful for it. The idea of Echo Fighters is nice on paper and with some examples in practice, but for Dixie it's become a huge obstacle. How many people only consider Dixie as an Echo, outside of this thread in the general hype cycles? It's the prevailing thought; Dixie is overlooked in newcomer speculation because as far as many care, her only shot in is now as an Echo; nobody here feels this way and I'm glad, but a Unique or Semi-Clone Dixie is scoffed at with disgust outside of this site at large. Echo proposals do more harm for Dixie than good; it makes her too safe to speculate on, too boring to take seriously and too easy to separate her from the "real" newcomers.

Anyway, to be real with everyone, I want to keep stirring up ideas for Dixie to show she has a lot of believably unique ideas to implement. Not just from her hair, but elements of DKC (particularly her game) and safe leaps of logic that make sense for her and her prehensile hair. I won't browbeat and shame those who are fine with an Echo, but I will highlight what makes her different from Diddy besides her gender. If I inspire others, great.

 

[ze9]

I just can't visualize Dixie as an echo. Even having Ken's levels of differences, she'd still be very Diddy-like, so she'd be blazing around the stage, constantly kicking and cartwheeling, and showering the enemies with banana peels and with flashy long combos.
That's just... not how I see Dixie. I mean, she would probably be a pretty quick character anyways, but Diddy's moveset doesn't really gel with her, apart from a couple of moves. Dixie uses her hair for almost everything (so most of Diddy's A moves are a no-no), she's usually less agile than Diddy (so a combo-heavy playstyle doesn't look like the most faithful to the character), and she prefers the air
She's very different from Diddy. Even just her air speed would have to be completely different from Diddy's, to represent accurately how she moves in DKC.

Now, if we were talking Ness/Lucas or Villager/Isabelle level of differences from Diddy, then it would make sense and I'd be on board with it. But that's a lot closer to an original character than to an echo.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

Damn the echo vs. Unique debate has started again....

 

[GoodGrief741]

My stance on the Echo thing is that if Isabelle gets to be unique then Dixie definitely should too.

But I'm a beggar so I won't be choosy.

 

[SeashoreWar]

I recently played through the entire DKC trilogy again and had an absolute blast. Don't think Dixie is getting in this time but I think she has a great shot for the next game. Donkey Kong Country seriously deserves some better representation, especially in terms of music.

She's had a great shot for the past 3 games and still hasn't made it

 

[Toady]

bottom line i would be elated to be able to play as dixie in smash even as an echo but i would always feel like she should have been more.

she deserves to be a unique character and its a sucky situation where she has to settle for less.

My stance on the Echo thing is that if Isabelle gets to be unique then Dixie definitely should too.

But I'm a beggar so I won't be choosy.

Once again, I completely agree with every argument here as to why she should be a full-blown unique character. I've been a DK fan since I started playing video games when I was 4 or 5. I speedrun DKC2. I know how special Dixie is as a character.

But I see it as the same way that many Shadow fans looked at the Grinch leak. I don't know a ton about Sonic lore but I know Shadow and Sonic are very different ability-wise. You can argue for how he should be a unique character all day, but if it's clone or nothing, they were just happy to see him in the game.

That's how I feel with Dixie. Trust me, I stuffed the ballot with her and K. Rool. Both of them were deserving long before Ultimate. Hell, I was shocked that Diddy didn't even get so much as a trophy in Melee.

DK characters always get in late. I know we want to make this campaign reach Sakurai and let him know, but he already knows that Dixie is a very popular character in the West. He already takes that into consideration when deciding who's worth the development time over others. Again, Dixie was in the files for Brawl (albeit as Diddy's partner). Sakurai certainly knows about her. I'm sure he also agrees that in a perfect world where time constraints weren't an option, Dixie would be in hands-down. But that's not the world we're in.

We got two Rareware characters so far this game which is incredible. But I wanna reiterate the quotes above.

Dixie deserves a unique character slot. She should be more than a semi-clone. She has way too much material to be confined to just an echo fighter.

But above all else, she should be SOMEWHERE on that damn roster, and if that means the Brothers Bare minimum to get her on there (essentially a "bonus" seeing as that's what echo fighters are supposed to be) I will take that over nothing.

I repeat. OVER NOTHING.

I am not arguing that Dixie SHOULD be an echo fighter. I am not arguing that she doesn't have a chance at her own spot. I am simply saying if she is NOT one of those last two DLC spots, I would still love to see her in the game at all, and if the "bonus character" route is taken, I think Banjo's release would be a great time for it.

Does that all make sense? I don't want to offend anyone or make it seem like I'm against Dixie in any way.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

We are not developers. We are fans. We are making the case to other fans why Dixie Kong matters and should be considered. We are not bargaining with Sakurai directly and he will not care about Dixie Kong more if we tell other fans we are OK with Dixie as an echo. He isn't even at the bargaining table with us. The "sacrifice" of accepting Dixie "even as an echo" isn't going to be rewarded by anyone.

Since we are speaking to other fans, we should stress her individuality. And saying she should be an echo at all doesn't stress her individuality. It is the opposite, actually.

I mean, even the Daisy fans pushed for an individual Daisy. Daisy, a character that hasn't actually done anything much to distinguish herself in terms of gameplay, unlike Dixie.

Dixie as an echo is just throwing cold water on Dixie for no reason. The idea of Dixie as an echo makes people care less about her, because it just reaffirms why they should be apathetic for her.

 

[ze9]

Just to intervene a bit on the Shadow thing: the thing with Shadow is that you could easily pull a Ken and make him work as an echo. They both diverged more and more from Sonic/Ryu as the games went by; but for Ken Sakurai decided to ignore most of the differences that were introduced after SF2, thus giving us more or less SF2 Ken.
Shadow got crazier abilities (and... weapons...) only in later games, but in his original appearance in Sonic Adventure 2 he was more or less a palette swap of Sonic. Yeah he had the chaos control, but he only used it in cutscenes (and Sonic did too towars the end, anyways). A Sonic with aesthetic differences but more or less the same gameplay is essentialy what Shadow was in his first appearance; looking only at that he could easily work as an echo.
But Dixie's case is different.
Dixie's moveset and abilities were established as being very different from Diddy's from the get-go. They've always looked and played very differently, so, unlike with Shadow, the echo solution is not a good compromise for her.
Also, I'm not really sure how or why this echo idea became popular... I mean, the only thing Diddy and Dixie have in common is a similar body shape. In the original DKC trilogy, they played as differently as, say, Diddy and Donkey (if not even more), and nobody would even think of making Diddy an echo of Donkey. Sure, they're both small monkeys so they could share a couple of moves, but that's it.
I agree with the idea that we as a fanbase should push more to put in the spotlight Dixie's unique aspects, or she'll never get enough traction. I think Sakurai doesn't see her as echo material either (she and Diddy would have swapped between each other in his original idea for Brawl; kinda defeats the point of swapping if they both play the same), so let's get creative with those ponytails and those Kiddy appearances and that chewing gum.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

Man I swear if we dont get something DK related within that rumored September Direct Im gonna be livid. I dont care if its just Koizumi coming out in a DK tie eating a banana slowly for 5 minutes. I need my DK fix man.

Tired of Mario, Zelda, Fire Emblem, and Pokemon getting multiple games a week (seriously Switch NEEDS classic franchise variation badly). While us DK fans have to go years starving for a scrape of content. Its a shame that the best/most exciting news DK has gotten recently is Diddy returning to MK in a multiplayer less mobile game..

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Man I swear if we dont get something DK related within that rumored September Direct Im gonna be livid. I dont care if its just Koizumi coming out in a DK tie eating a banana slowly for 5 minutes. I need my DK fix man.

Tired of Mario, Zelda, Fire Emblem, and Pokemon getting multiple games a week (seriously Switch NEEDS classic franchise variation badly). While us DK fans have to go years starving for a scrape of content. Its a shame that the best/most exciting news DK has gotten recently is Diddy returning to MK in a multiplayer less mobile game..

Would Dixie Kong in Smash suffice?

 

[TheYungLink]

Every time someone says "do you want Dixie as an Echo Fighter or do you want nothing?" as if I should immediately choose the former, I think back to Ganondorf and how, if I had the choice, I'd go back in time and politely ask Sakurai to please not make Ganondorf playable in Super Smash Bros. Melee if he was just gonna be a Captain Falcon clone.

Like, even if there was no guarantee he'd be playable in Melee, Brawl, Smash 4, or even Ultimate otherwise, I just want characters like Ganondorf done right, first and foremost, rather than included but in a way I don't feel is completely true to their character.

It's possible to make someone a clone and still make them feel like themselves, however. A lot of Dixie Kong fans find it 100% understandable for her to have some of Diddy's attacks and animations. But she can't be a near copy of him, she needs her own up special at least, and her attacks have to largely center around her ponytail, or attacks that become embellished with whips of her ponytail. Doing Diddy's acrobatics for her smash attacks wouldn't look right, for example, and hair whips can take their place. I actually imagine a fair number of Dixie's attacks being disjointed Marth style "swings" using her hair instead of a sword, which would help her stand out not only against the other Kongs but even K. Rool.

On a side note, I believe Ganondorf can feel like himself while still being a clone, but Captain Falcon was the wrong choice. Instead, since Ganondorf debuted in Melee, he should have been a Luigi style clone (Luigi was the only semi-clone in Melee) of...Mewtwo. All of Mewtwo's special moves fit Ganondorf, especially neutral and side special, but work would need to be done to replace all the standard attacks where Mewtwo uses its tail (its tilts, get up attack, ledge attack, up aerial, and down aerial, that's only 7 moves) with something else like...fisticuffs and kicks powered by dark magic. Because those DO fit on Ganondorf, they just should never have been the main focus.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Perhaps if we were louder in the first place like those K. Rool and Banjo fans, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion in the first place.
I don't think anyone here would ever want Dixie to be an echo if they could make her a unique character. People are just emotionally bargaining because Dixie just missed out on the last Smash Bros game to bring back every veteran in the series, the literal definitive edition of Smash.

Right now, all I see outside this board are the screams of Waluigi and Bandanna Dee fans when it comes to 1st Party requests.


In all honesty, the absolute worst that could happen is just being a Chrom/Ken style echo (Chrom being Roy's echo while having Ike's Up-B shows echoes can take from multiple characters), while the ideal being fully unique or a nice passable moveset being an Isabelle/Lucas/Wolf style semiclone.

Being a full Dark Pit/Daisy/Lucina/Dark Samus echo isn't something that even seems possible without incredible stretches.

 

[BirthNote]

Just to intervene a bit on the Shadow thing: the thing with Shadow is that you could easily pull a Ken and make him work as an echo. They both diverged more and more from Sonic/Ryu as the games went by; but for Ken Sakurai decided to ignore most of the differences that were introduced after SF2, thus giving us more or less SF2 Ken.
Shadow got crazier abilities (and... weapons...) only in later games, but in his original appearance in Sonic Adventure 2 he was more or less a palette swap of Sonic. Yeah he had the chaos control, but he only used it in cutscenes (and Sonic did too towars the end, anyways). A Sonic with aesthetic differences but more or less the same gameplay is essentialy what Shadow was in his first appearance; looking only at that he could easily work as an echo.
But Dixie's case is different.
Dixie's moveset and abilities were established as being very different from Diddy's from the get-go. They've always looked and played very differently, so, unlike with Shadow, the echo solution is not a good compromise for her.
Also, I'm not really sure how or why this echo idea became popular... I mean, the only thing Diddy and Dixie have in common is a similar body shape. In the original DKC trilogy, they played as differently as, say, Diddy and Donkey (if not even more), and nobody would even think of making Diddy an echo of Donkey. Sure, they're both small monkeys so they could share a couple of moves, but that's it.
I agree with the idea that we as a fanbase should push more to put in the spotlight Dixie's unique aspects, or she'll never get enough traction. I think Sakurai doesn't see her as echo material either (she and Diddy would have swapped between each other in his original idea for Brawl; kinda defeats the point of swapping if they both play the same), so let's get creative with those ponytails and those Kiddy appearances and that chewing gum.

I 100% agree with you, and this is coming from someone who LOVED Shadow before he started using guns. For as much as I thought he was cooler than Sonic (and would argue about it with anyone) when I was a kid, IIRC his main difference was his running animation. Everything else was the same.

 

[Toady]

Since we are speaking to other fans, we should stress her individuality. And saying she should be an echo at all doesn't stress her individuality. It is the opposite, actually.

Yeah, you're completely right. I'm sorry for bringing any negativity here. I won't push it any further. Let's just hope we get Dixie as she should be.

 

[ZelDan]

What makes Dixie Kong stick out from Diddy Kong is her hair and the fact she can fly and attack with it.

if they made her a Chrom/Ken echo, where she gets a recovery like DK's where she uses her hair, and maybe has some animations change where she uses her hair to strike, then they way I see it, Dixie is properly represented. It's not like Dixie has anything against bananas and from what I hear she also has a gun like Diddy's so her having those moves too wouldn't exactly go against what Dixie Kong is.

It's also important to remember that the echo status is not a negative thing or not meant to be a negative label. Some Dixie haters might start **** over it but they were going to do that anyways so who cares?

So, I'd be totally fine with Dixie Kong being a Chrom/Ken-tier echo. a Daisy/Richter-tier echo would be disappointing though.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

if they made her a Chrom/Ken echo, where she gets a recovery like DK's where she uses her hair, and maybe has some animations change where she uses her hair to strike, then they way I see it, Dixie is properly represented. It's not like Dixie has anything against bananas and from what I hear she also has a gun like Diddy's so her having those moves too wouldn't exactly go against what Dixie Kong is.

Her gun would probably shoot bubblegum instead of peanuts because each side character had a unique projectile in Tropical Freeze (Diddy - Peanuts, Dixie - Bubblegum, Cranky - Dentures). The gum itself was a reference to Dixie’s idle animations in the classic SNES DKCs. It’s another very obvious implementation to differentiate her from Diddy, with the gum probably having more “sticky” properties on opponents like how Roy and Ken had fire properties on their moves compared to Marth and Ryu.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I think that if Sakurai wanted Dixie to be an echo, she would already be in the game as one.

I think this too and the fact that he might think this means he believes Dixie is of higher caliber than most other characters, who otherwise he would turn into a Echo.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I think this too and the fact that he might think this means he believes Dixie is of higher caliber than most other characters, who otherwise he would turn into a Echo.

A higher caliber that he couldn’t bother putting in the game.

 

[ze9]

Well, at one point he didn't bother to put in K. Rool, too. And even Diddy, back in Melee.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Well, at one point he didn't bother to put in K. Rool, too. And even Diddy, back in Melee.

Difference is that neither of those characters were in a tier by themselves compared to the rest of the 1st Party line up at the time. Also there's just a seeming finality to Ultimate compared to the previous games, yes I know Sakurai said the previous Smash games would be the last before but I don't think they'll ever be able to do something on this scale again.

 

[ze9]

Difference is that neither of those characters were in a tier by themselves compared to the rest of the 1st Party line up at the time.

They were, though. Especially Diddy. Him and Wario were Smash 64 material, let alone Melee, and they only got in in Brawl when they felt looooooong overdue.
And K. Rool was probably the absolute n.1 fan request with only Ridley and Banjo coming close.
DKC has definitely been kinda screwed troughout Smash's history, but I think it's more a reflection of the struggles of cooperating with Rare for games that had to be developed in crunch time for 64 and Melee, and Nintendo absolutely mismanaging the series from Brawl onwards. I don't think Sakurai has anything against Dixie. I mean, she was planned at one point.

And yes, Ultimate feels kinda final, but let's face it: Dixie is not joining in the 1st Fighter Pass. The only thing we can do is hoping they do a 2nd one and drum up the support so they're more likely to consider her when and if they start to develop it. And I seriously doubt they'll do an Echo Pass or anything like that.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

They were, though. Especially Diddy. Him and Wario were Smash 64 material, let alone Melee, and they only got in in Brawl when they felt looooooong overdue.
And K. Rool was probably the absolute n.1 fan request with only Ridley and Banjo coming close.

Diddy being together with Wario and Rool being together with Ridley and Banjo means they were not in a tier by themselves. I'd say that Rool and Ridley were also in the same tier with Dixie prior to their reveals, with Dixie being more relevant than both of them due to her appearance in TF.

 

[[Maple]]

Please no not an echo dammit! She is so different from diddy in term of personality. She could uses her guitare, ponytail, bubble gun, etc.

I legit prefer not seeing her at all in smash if she ended up being an echo and wait for the next smash bros game. If she gets in as an echo she will stay as an echo.

But a semi-clone is perfectly fine imo.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

If clones were rebranded as echoes why are we still saying "semi-clones" instead of "semi-echoes"?