The Last Nintendo All-Star: Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits

Dukemon102

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The Geek Critique said it best:
"Aside from a Small Niche of Fans that grew up with the Super Nintendo, the DKC series never had the respect and reverence among gamers that other Nintendo franchises like Zelda and Metroid enjoy"

There's no gaming franchise that is dispespected as much as Donkey Kong. There are others that get insulted or laughed at, but at least they are recognized as franchises, as IPs, not as random spin off games of that one Mario character.
Preach, everytime I say my favorite games of all time are DKC2 and Tropical Freeze instead of Mario games, people treat me like I'm joking or something else.
"How can a stupid monkey game be better than Mario?", a thought that people that played the DK games in the 90s would never even consider.
Sadly, I blame the popularity of the DK Rap for this, it was not its original intention and I actually love the song, but in this current culture of memeing everything, it gives the DK franchise the impression of being a bad joke instead of a legit franchise, that and the lack of consistent games.
 

Phoenix Douchebag

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Preach, everytime I say my favorite games of all time are DKC2 and Tropical Freeze instead of Mario games, people treat me like I'm joking or something else.
"How can a stupid monkey game be better than Mario?", a thought that people that played the DK games in the 90s would never even consider.
Sadly, I blame the popularity of the DK Rap for this, it was not its original intention and I actually love the song, but in this current culture of memeing everything, it gives the DK franchise the impression of being a bad joke instead of a legit franchise, that and the lack of consistent games.
Meme culture in general ruins everything. Everything's gotta simplefied onto the last atom taking all complexity, and has become extremely annoying this year for some reason (my guess beign that now that im forced to be mostly indoors, i notice how ****ty most internet people and trends actually are, which didn't cross my head before due to me beign able to go outside and do ****)
 

ZeroJanitor

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Normally I hate being the kind of person who's like "ugh kids today with their memes grumble grumble" but I do kinda wish it was still possible to talk about Donkey Kong Country or the Shrek movies and be taken somewhat seriously. I was on the Tier Maker website today and was reminded how the DKC section is inundated with low-quality meme polls.

I guess it's a little difficult for people to see what makes DKC special if they haven't played the games. To an outsider it probably just looks like "Mario with a jungle flavor". I wonder if it would stand out more if Nintendo promoted it more like they did in the 90s, that kind of "this isn't Mario, these games are intense and challenging and deliver a strong aesthetic experience" approach (except this is the 90s so they're yelling it and spelling all the C words with a K).
 

Diddy Kong

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Top 10 saddest anime deaths.

At least they continued to use he character. She's more dead now than she was when Rare and PAON still used her in their games.

Also I think a lot of people don't see DKC as serious because of the cartoon being quite goofy, and the whole Expand Dong meme. Which lasted for way too long. DK64 didn't have a all too serious theme around it either.

The marketing of Nintendo also has to do with this..and their neglect. I can talk literally all day about Nintendo's neglect of DKC and my frustration from it, but I won't be tempted today.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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More fun Dixie facts.

 

ZeroJanitor

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Modern Dixie looks good but I think I prefer Classic Dixie. For one, the kneepads give her design more symmetry. I also think her classic face is cuter and her hair being a paler-yellow looks more pleasing than the mustard yellow hair she has now.

There are things I like more about modern Dixie though, like her bangs, or her fur (sometimes) being a lighter color.

I'd like to think that if Dixie was in Smash, she would basically be a fusion of her classic and modern design. K. Rool does this as well; he largely favors his classic design but has the jewel on his cape and the shorter tail he had in the PAON-era.
 
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Jurae818

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I'm glad it was brought up, the memetic status of Donkey Kong has been intensified over the last few years with the HE meme and Expand Dong nonsense and on the Wii U page advertising some games back in 2014-ish, Nintendo indirectly referenced the latter meme with the Snomads front and center. I get that memes and in-jokes are supposed to be in good fun, but when you make it the basis of your work or IP, it can be detrimental. Bringing up Sonic again, starting with Colors, the script pushed for more silliness and gradually moved to embracing memes and self-aware humor relating to the seedier underside of the fandom (And hoo boy, seedy is an understatement). The writers for those games admit they had little knowledge on Sonic and did things the way they saw fit.

That is the biggest problem that a series can suffer from: People who don't know a thing about it and what made it great having a say in said series. This is why I hate where Dixie Kong is and Donkey Kong by extension. People who don't know anything about the series or games or the characters, but feel the need to say or dictate what should and shouldn't be for the series. I'll tie this into another point I didn't get to make last week: These same people are also the outsiders that Brawl allowed in with the inclusion of Snake and Sonic. You now have people who say that characters like Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Toad and countless others are uninteresting and boring for a multitude of reasons and then you have characters like Captain Syrup, Takamaru, Sukapon, Mike Jones, Lip, any non-triforce trio Zelda rep or any Zelda rep period, Isaac, Black Shadow, Krystal, just to name a few as scraping the bottom of the barrel. Again, these people come in with little to no knowledge on the legacy series that made Nintendo and led to Smash's finalization telling the fans of those characters that they're wrong for wanting Nintendo characters in a Nintendo-based fighting game.

3rd parties are a frivolous poison that has infected Smash and this started as early as Brawl. Sonic the Hedgehog is self-explanatory, point blank. Solid Snake however, was a left-field choice and pure nepotism on Sakurai's end. Sonic only got in as a result of Snake appearing. They were even going to appear in Melee, which should tell you enough about Sakurai overall and how he sees Nintendo as a whole. Smash Four and Ultimate regulated a chunk of Nintendo's notable faces to the loser's corner while 3rd parties who have had little to do with Nintendo get to come in and enjoy the limelight. This is also why Everyone is Here! can't happen again, the more 3rd parties you bring in, the higher the licensing fees are. It almost didn't happen initially, you can bet it's a one-time thing, which makes the spirit and assist trophy hell more damning, especially the former. Still images aren't content nor are they a good substitute for what was a 3D model that could be shown in every angle. I don't like Sakurai's notion of giving everyone something. Sometimes, nothing is better than something. Bomberman is ****ed indefinitely. He won't get another chance. An assist and a costume with slightly more work put into it isn't gonna cut it for me personally, keyword. I personally do not accept that as a good thing. With being absent, you have the one-in-a-million shot of your favorite character getting in, Banjo-Kazooie being the shot that landed, and how fitting that they were the most well-received characters until Steve arrived and even then, Steve lacks the messy scenario that BK was in.


This statement from the DOJO in hindsight showcases my problem with assists.
"You may even see some that only the most dedicated fans will recognize, so you’ll have to look forward to them."

The most dedicated fans will likely want those characters to be playable. The fact that only the most dedicated fans will know them does them no favors. In Brawl, this could be a neat way to squeeze more characters in overall, but in hindsight once more, it's very damning to those characters. Was this the intent all along, to put lesser-known Nintendo characters in a regulated corner and push characters who are popular, marketable, characters that can advertise an upcoming game or characters that Sakurai likes personally and disguise them under a notion that they're a good thing because they simply appeared? Tinfoil hat, I know. But my point still stands. Smash Four onward did no favors to disprove this claim.

With an assist and a spirit, mainly an assist and costume, you're pretty much out of the race. You can pretend that you're playing as Isaac with his costume on the Mii Swordfighter, but it's not Isaac, it's just a husk of what could have been. You have a 1/59 chance of seeing Takamaru for ten seconds with an item that can be disabled and you can't even enjoy it due to having to worry about your opponent(s) or the stage hazards, and some assists can't be summoned in certain stages, lowering their chances even more of appearing. A spirit is worse; it's not the character you see, it's a vague reference to that character. The roster is big, but not big enough to properly represent the 1400+ characters that are present in that silly mode. You can only do the same gimmicks for so long until it gets tiresome. That said, at least a still image can be pushed aside and retitled. an assist had actual work put into it and appears to be a de-facto deconfirm, and a costume still needs a modeler and also appears as a consolation prize, no matter if it comes with a track or extra customization. An echo fighter is still a fighter, keyword that can still join the full-fledged fighters and stand aside them on the same plane.

I don't like compromises and I don't like consolation prizes. I don't like that assist trophies are putting big names and notable Nintendo faces in a corner that seldom gets visited. I hate that if you don't see it as a small step to a bigger prize, you're entitled or ungrateful. You are allowed to be disappointed as a customer who intends to pay for the product given. As a paying customer, I have my nods and gripes with Ultimate. My gripes are not because I'm ungrateful, my gripes come from my analysis as a customer who consumed Sakurai's product. I'm giving it a fair shake, rather than saying "GREAT GAME JAM-PACKED WITH TONS OF CONTENT 10/10". That isn't any better than saying "ISAAC AND SHADOW ARE ASSISTS, 0/10 **** GAME". The best part is Sakurai himself acknowledges and accepts that criticism is inevitable, whether he likes it or not and I take great pleasure in exercising that right. Games are a privilege. As long as a price-tag is attached to them, they will always be up for critique, because your money is a very precious resource that doesn't come easy and with today's games coming in at 65-75USD, it becomes more riskier to put your money into one game that may disappoint when you could apply that money to bills, necessities or even stocks.

I apologize for that rant, but this has bugged me since Smash Four in 2013. I'm frankly sick of people attacking me and those who dare not blindly accept what Sakurai presents and cries about how he works hard to give people a game. It's not a charity, it's a business. He intends to make money off it, so therefore he is not entitled be exempt from critique. Throwing a few bones also does not make him free from critique, it should be the standard. Keep throwing bones. Hell, why not the whole bird? Accepting scraps is also a compromise, one that should not be tolerated or humored. Just because you don't care about a character does not give you the right to dictate how important they are. There are people seriously humoring 3rd parties that have less notability than some D-list Nintendo faces simply because they aren't popular or mentioned to the extent that other more known 3rd parties are. See how screwy this whole ordeal is?

Short version: If you want Dixie Kong in Smash as a playable fighter, you have every right to feel that way and should not be attacked or shamed for doing so. Keep the fight going until Sakurai outright states she can't get in or the DLC for Ultimate comes to a close. That goes for every other Nintendo character that's supposedly at the bottom of the barrel. And not every 3rd party character that I like has to be in Smash Bros., personal example for five years now, Rayman.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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As someone having to take leave from social media completely as of last weeks since Steve's reveal, this post is something I wish I could have written... if I hadn't become practically henpecked all these years by most of Smash's fanbase due constantly being told to just be happy/grateful about what I "received" from the series when being personally annoyed about the NPC'd characters I happened to unfortunately rally for - even if these tend to consequently be mocked by these same as part of their humorous, if not "smug" tradition - which the series eventually would adopt regarding it's treatment of characters like Waluigi, Chrom and Spring Man.
Eventually I'd be just feeling alienated by the series as a whole since it'd start double down more and more with all these popular 3rd Parties that broke so many grounds that it was basically anyone's game - which then leads us to the present day of them being the name of the on-going speculations over what used to be a general ground for fan-favorite Nintendo-characters mainly. (K.Rool and Ridley got really fortunate on not getting "ignored" by Ultimate in this regard, honestly)


I've have had so many personally wanted characters, many who happened to be the obscure/cult-classic favorites of Nintendo's history, generally ending up pushed to the sidelined roles for about a decade now with this series. And despite people telling me to smile in genuine thankfulness for them being part of the "game", in that decade-old experience, I've long come to observe that in grand scheme of things, these characters are nothing more than museum pieces at best to glance at most of these mainstream fan of Smash or Nintendo. Smash has little to practically jack-squat in means of being "marketable" or bringing any interest on their series... unless they're playable - and plenty dormant series we know today are essentially had more apperarances as Assists over any new titles since Brawl.


It's made me appreciate such strange title like Captain Rainbow only more and more as time had passed with me staying invested on Smash-franchise and seeing it more or less build on mainstream/popular characters as newcomers along the 3rd Parties in the way, essentially making shoving of obscure fan-favorites we see in that game more egrogious, especially likes of Takamaru or Lip.

On the other side, we have the the complete inverse for the fate of most of these currently-unpopular "niche" characters with what happened to likes of Fire Emblem or Xenoblade Chronicles-franchises.The latter especially, now having become a flagship franchise of Monolith Soft according to their latest interviews, was long before in similar position as most of the "obscure" IPs of Nintendo's catalogue around the Wii-era, and had it's most dedicated fans mainly campaign on with Operation Rainfall to be pull it out of it's Japan-only status back then. That's just how close we've been to live in a timeline where that series would have probably become overlooked as one of the similarly niche IPs for Nintendo to gloss over at these years... if it wasn't mainly it garnering most of it's wide-spread presence boost from Shulk's appearance in Smash. :025:



Naturally I decided to cut down these to more mainstream characters to settle on for less instead of shooting to impossibilities - yet as of late, I hardly can even recognize, or invest on Smash Bros as the series I grew up with to even be a series where I could hope to see Dixie Kong after Diddy Kong was long a thing in Brawl (And she was rumored to be part of him... dang...). Toad less so, since I believe he's in same "impossible NPC-centric character"-position as Tingle due getting upstaged by :ultpiranha: this point. Doesn't help that if Plant or some Assists-to-Fighter characters had proved it, anyone short of that is no damn to be given about (and how! They're just roulette of questionably A.I-controlled cameos stuffed in an item which was done all the way better by Pokeballs since the series' inception... even the smiling cloud platform from Yoshi's Story got to build their own legacy in Melee's competitive history due being such integral part of the very stage he appeared in!)

During the time he was released, playing :ultbanjokazooie: against :ultfalcon: on Yoshi's Story-level reminded me long of the times where I wanted to see more natural evolution of Smash's general selling point, which was just being a Nintendo-centric party fighter. Yet today, I feel like it's long gone shed away that aspect of itself, which has made it harder for me to really be invested on it from personal end due how it looks only to be that 3rd Parties are on-going stars of the series now - which with the trademark icon characters of Nintendo's catalogue, has made this series essentially hold this title of being official version of whatever that song was about ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny that I saw on Youtube around 2009 in lieu of Brawl Taunt-comedies.

I really tried to stick around when Steve was shown but I think I hit some burn-out with always being happy for others be try to just enjoy my own occassionaly gift now and then... but somehow it's kind of dissonant to think that the best way I can really continue enjoying Smash-franchise in it's current form is to bury slowly yet painfully any personal wishes or even improvements for Smash-franchise based on the (now-false) perceptions of it as Nintendo-centric crossover. Somehow in that context, wanting to see Dixie Kong in this series feels kinda "low-brow" and not fitting the series in the way I remembered it, since it's feeling so more different with it's current emphasis on 3rd Parties, and the general marketing and fandom activities that come with it.

It's still kind of ironic that I can't still get to see Rayman in this... and I had lost Bomberman 2 years ago. But Richter and Banjo&Kazooie is still fine, though now latter feels like I should be just more thankful for Minecraft's existence to let us enjoy it in Smash after all these years. Kinda dumbs it down a bit, you know?

On that note, trying to voice most of these thoughts I've written here on social media would have only made me look more or less a scapegoat to whatever is wrong with the series' "never-satisfied and ungrateful jerkasses to Daddy Sakurai just doing his best."


Overall, I've complete lost interest on this series since last weeks- while I can count more than plenty of things I'm still happy it generally managed to do, I keep constantly feeling like my, emphasis on, personal investment on this series was unfortunately, utterly wasted - and in turn I only got to witness how just much it really sucked to invest so passionately on characters from IPs that in the grand scheme of things, aren't in the radar of the company that green-lighted them.





(Captain Rainbow 2 when?)
 
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RetrogamerMax

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As someone having to take leave from social media completely as of last weeks since Steve's reveal, this post is something I wish I could have written... if I hadn't become practically henpecked all these years by most of Smash's fanbase due constantly being told to just be happy about what I go even in spite of NPC'd characters I happened to unfortunately rally for, be constantly mocked by them as part of the fans' and eventually series' tradition. Eventually I'd be just feeling alienated by the series as a whole since it'd start double down more and more with 3rd Parties that broke so many grounds that it was basically anyone's game - which then leads us to the present day of them being the name of the speculations over what used to be Nintendo-characters mainly.



I've have had so many personally wanted characters, many who happened to be the obscure/cult-classic favorites of Nintendo's history, generally ending up pushed to the sidelined roles for about a decade now with this series. And despite people telling me to smile in genuine thankfulness for them being part of the "game(s)", with that long experience, I've long come to observe that in grand scheme of things, these characters are nothing more than museum pieces to most of these mainstream fan of Smash or Nintendo. Smash doesn't do them jack-squat in means of being present unless they're playable - and plenty dormant series we know today are essentially had more apperarances as Assists over any new titles since Brawl.



It's made me appreciate such strange title like Captain Rainbow only more and more as time had passed with me staying invested on Smash-franchise and seeing it more or less build on mainstream/popular characters as newcomers along the 3rd Parties in the way, essentially making shoving of obscure fan-favorites we see in that game more egrogious, especially likes of Takamaru or Lip.

I then decided to cut down these to more mainstream characters to settle on for less instead of shooting to impossibilities - yet as of late, I hardly can even recognize, or invest on Smash Bros as the series I grew up with to even be a series where I could hope to see Dixie Kong after Diddy Kong was long a thing in Brawl (And she was rumored to be part of him... dang...). Toad less so, since I believe he's in same "impossible NPC-centric character"-position as Tingle due getting upstaged by :ultpiranha: this point. Doesn't help that if Plant or some Assists-to-Fighter characters had proved it, anyone short of that is no damn to be given about (and how! They're just roulette of questionably A.I-controlled cameos stuffed in an item which was done all the way better by Pokeballs since the series' inception... even the smiling cloud platform from Yoshi's Story got to build their own legacy in Melee's competitive history due being such integral part of the very stage he appeared in!)

During the time he was released, playing :ultbanjokazooie: against :ultfalcon: on Yoshi's Story-level reminded me long of the times where I wanted to see more natural evolution of Smash's general selling point, which was just being a Nintendo-centric party fighter. Yet today, I feel like it's long gone shed away that aspect of itself, which has made it harder for me to really be invested on it from personal end due how it looks only to be that 3rd Parties are on-going stars of the series now - which with the trademark icon characters of Nintendo's catalogue, has made this series essentially hold this title of being official version of whatever that song was about ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny that I saw on Youtube around 2009 in lieu of Brawl Taunt-comedies.

I really tried to stick around when Steve was shown but I think I hit some burn-out with always being happy for others be try to just enjoy my own occassionaly gift now and then... but somehow it's kind of dissonant to think that the best way I can really continue enjoying Smash-franchise in it's current form is to bury slowly yet painfully any personal wishes or even improvements for Smash-franchise based on the (now-false) perceptions of it as Nintendo-centric crossover. Somehow in that context, wanting to see Dixie Kong in this series feels kinda "low-brow" and not fitting the series in the way I remembered it, since it's feeling so more different with it's current emphasis on 3rd Parties, and the general marketing and fandom activities that come with it.

Doesn't also help that trying to voice most of these thoughts I've written here on social media would make me look more or less a scapegoat to whatever is wrong with the series' "never-satisfied and ungrateful jerkasses to Daddy Sakurai just doing his best."

I've kinda been leaving the series behind me in personal ends for good since last weeks, but I keep sometimes feeling like my, emphasis on, personal investment on this series was unfortunately, utterly wasted - and in turn I only got to witness how just much it really sucked to invest so passionately on characters from IPs that in the grand scheme of things, aren't in the radar of the company that green-lighted them.






(Captain Rainbow 2 when?)
I'm thinking about leaving Smash speculation after Ultimate's DLC lineup is over. Ultimate gave me K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo & Kazooie who I've all waited for since Melee. Now Goemon and Krystal are my last big wants and one a Mii costume and the other is Assist Trophy. I don't think I have it in me to go another rodeo, so I think I'm calling it quits with the speculation game after Ultimate. 2 speculation cycles is enough for me and I already had some good memories during Smash 4 speculation and Ultimate speculation.
 

Jurae818

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~ Valkyrie ~ ~ Valkyrie ~ Well said on your end. I was always a Nintendo fan, never a Smash fan. Even with Melee and 64, I'd get bored of it before long. It was always seeing all those Nintendo games come together that was the pull for me. Ice Climber was one of my first games growing up and seeing the Ice Climbers as characters blew my mind. I was really excited to see Captain Rainbow come to the states but alas, it never came to be. Before I even played Smash, I was a big fan of Wario Land, Starfox, F-Zero, all those titles I played beforehand so it was a treat to see Falcon and Fox and in the case of MOTHER, I got into that long after I played the original game and forgot that Ness was that kid with the strange powers. By the time I played Melee, I'd beaten MOTHER 2 and was playing MOTHER 1 alongside it.

The sad part is, most of those series I mentioned are dormant or in MOTHER's case, finished or dead. I played the Legendary Starfy not because of Smash, but because I took an interest in the series and wanted to give it support when they finally localized a title so that more games could arrive if not being made altogether. If Smash is being used for a marketing platform going by Smash For's method of advertising games under the character profiles, why not advertise said series in order to generate interest? Why was Dixie absent from Smash For when Tropical Freeze came out that same year but Fire Emblem gets a new character whose game wasn't even released yet (that even happened twice)? Chibi-Robo is by far the biggest tragedy I've seen with an IP being mismanaged. Zip-Lash may not have been what the fans have wanted, but it didn't deserve to have the entire future of the IP on its shoulders. Corrin could have been Chibi-Robo. Byleth could have been anyone else. But that's another can of worms I'll keep on the shelf.

As I get older and I see that Nintendo from yesterday isn't the same as Nintendo from today, I'm honestly contemplating if sticking around this fandom is a good idea. Never mind the fanboys who tear you apart if you even criticize their messiah. It's just too draining and I had my fill of it by 2014. Dixie Kong came back home in 2013, I got K. Rool in Ultimate after eleven years of explaining to others why he matters, I'm sure I'll get a new DKC for the Switch, I even got Banjo-Kazooie rejoining their Nintendo alumni and I'll wait for Breath of the Wild 2 to release. Smash is just an obligation that I have to fulfill so that the claims of being ungrateful or entitled aren't true. Sakurai did one thing I liked and I'm honoring it. When he does more things that I like, I'll continue the cycle. It's that simple.

For now, I'm waiting to see what's up with those trademark listings for Donkey Kong. 2021 could be the Year of DK.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Excellent artwork!

 

RetrogamerMax

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Dukemon102

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I've seen a lot of low spirits and complaining lately.

I think it's time to light up the mood.

I made a poll. Let's discuss what is the overall favorite minecart level?

In my case, DKC2 and Tropical Freeze have the best ones. My favorites would be between Rickety Race and Sawmill Thrill.

I love the challenge of Rickety Race, I take the + speed barrel everytime and it needs my complete attention or I'm probably falling into the abyss.

I love the originality of Sawmill Thrill and how they took an old concept and made a completely fresh level out of it after so many similar Minecart levels in Returns, Prehistoric Path was the standout there, back then I wished they did more like that one, oh boy, they absolutely did it. The floating section in a wood boat and the context that makes obstacles appear are just beautiful. High Tide Ride also uses the 3D graphics to give us a visual spectacle from another perspective. But I think both of them are a bit too easy.

But in the end I go with Rickety Race, the adrenaline rush you get in that level hasn't been topped. Returns has a lot of extreme scenarios with the minecart but you get so many checkpoints that it just becomes a "memorize the level until you succeed". Also, getting the DK Coin in Rickety Race for the first time felt like a true accomplishment.
 

KingofPhantoms

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Adding onto an earlier subject, here...

Criticizing Sakurai and his decisions regarding Smash is all perfectly acceptable and just.

Personally attacking him isn't.

That's the way I see it. And in all fairness...You'll never be able to please everyone. Much of the criticism he receives may be just, but if he had done things differently in accordance to it, he'd probably get much of the same level of criticism from another side of the spectrum, and it could easily be equally justified.

Smash is a wonderful franchise, but as it changes and evolves over time, so will people's opinions and investments in it. Some people will continue loving it, others will grow tired and uninterested. Doesn't make either side right or wrong.

I'm a 1st party guy myself, still a big supporter of Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Skull Kid, Tetra and the like, but I'm okay with 3rd parties, and in some cases like Steve, I'm actually really happy. Terry and the Hero did absolutely nothing for me, but Banjo was a really great surprise, the Sans costume is incredible, I've warmed up to Joker, and Steve was by far the most hyped I've felt for a character since King K. Rool himself was revealed, and on a similar to what I felt for the kremling king, to boot.

But hey, that's just me. All of those characters, combined or not, are gonna mean something different for someone else. And that's okay.
 
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Mariomaniac45213

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Part of me wonders what an alternate timeline would look like if Smash remained 1st party only. Instead of Sonic, Snake, Joker, Steve, Terry, Ryu, Ken, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Hero, Cloud, Simon, Richtor, Bayonetta, and Banjo (though these last two are a grey area where they're kinda 1st party but technically not) we had idk Dixie, Bandana Dee, Captain Toad, Urshifu, Isaac, Waluigi, Pauline, Medusa, DJ Octavio, Takamaru, Krystal, Tingle, Rex/Pyra, Porky Minch, and Impa (as examples).

Would Ultimate still be as successful on Nintendo fanservice and same gameplay alone? Would 3rd party speculation even exist given we would still be 6 games in without a single 3rd party character? Would Smash as a series even still exist past Brawl? These are interesting questions we will never know the answer to I suppose. Just food for thought given the recent set of discussion. My theory is yes Ultimate would still exist but probably wouldn't be as successful, instead of 20 million copies sold Im willing to guess probably 12 million. While the alternate timeline Ultimate would be my DREAM game I can't deny the reach 3rd party characters have to casuals. Their is a reason Steve broke Twitter when he was announced. Steve is undoubtly the biggest character Nintendo has added to Ultimate period. Because while usually Smash shines a light on a 3rd party franchise, Minecraft is so big for once its doing the opposite where the character is shining a light on Smash. So while yes I dont care for 3rd parties and the overtaking it has on speculation nowadays I do understand why Nintendo values other peoples characters more than their own.

That being said Nintendo could try and get better at using a fan favorite 1st party character as DLC which they have yet to do. The only times we have gotten 1st party characters is when Nintendo wants to shill FE or promote a new IP (ARMS). They have never once tried using a legacy characters as DLC that wasnt a Smash vet. You will never know how something will sell unless you try it at least once...
 

ZeroJanitor

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I think Cloud is really what ushered in the "anyone can happen" era of Smash speculation. I mean yeah Snake was equally out-there, even as Smash's first third-party character ever, but a lot of people knew that it was a request from Kojima to have Snake in Smash, and not something that Sakurai had to go out of his way to get.

The Smash 4 third parties in base game were Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, and later Ryu, and I know a lot of people thought that line-up made perfect sense at the time. They were undeniably iconic gaming characters, each with long histories that intertwine with Nintendo's in one way or another. Cloud is of course a very iconic character, but he rarely appeared on any console that wasn't owned by Sony. He was the pipe dream that everyone joked about, because they knew it would never happen.

Until it did.

We're at the point now where new third-party entries are what draws the most interest. Is this good, is it bad? I don't know. It is what it is. But I know for me personally, the only two characters I really wanted going into the pre-release Ultimate hype train were Dixie Kong and Simon Belmont, and I already got one of my wishes. Dixie is the final stretch for me, then I'll never have to ask for anything else again.
 

RetrogamerMax

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Part of me wonders what an alternate timeline would look like if Smash remained 1st party only. Instead of Sonic, Snake, Joker, Steve, Terry, Ryu, Ken, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Hero, Cloud, Simon, Richtor, Bayonetta, and Banjo (though these last two are a grey area where they're kinda 1st party but technically not) we had idk Dixie, Bandana Dee, Captain Toad, Urshifu, Isaac, Waluigi, Pauline, Medusa, DJ Octavio, Takamaru, Krystal, Tingle, Rex/Pyra, Porky Minch, and Impa (as examples).

Would Ultimate still be as successful on Nintendo fanservice and same gameplay alone? Would 3rd party speculation even exist given we would still be 6 games in without a single 3rd party character? Would Smash as a series even still exist past Brawl? These are interesting questions we will never know the answer to I suppose. Just food for thought given the recent set of discussion. My theory is yes Ultimate would still exist but probably wouldn't be as successful, instead of 20 million copies sold Im willing to guess probably 12 million. While the alternate timeline Ultimate would be my DREAM game I can't deny the reach 3rd party characters have to casuals. Their is a reason Steve broke Twitter when he was announced. Steve is undoubtly the biggest character Nintendo has added to Ultimate period. Because while usually Smash shines a light on a 3rd party franchise, Minecraft is so big for once its doing the opposite where the character is shining a light on Smash. So while yes I dont care for 3rd parties and the overtaking it has on speculation nowadays I do understand why Nintendo values other peoples characters more than their own.

That being said Nintendo could try and get better at using a fan favorite 1st party character as DLC which they have yet to do. The only times we have gotten 1st party characters is when Nintendo wants to shill FE or promote a new IP (ARMS). They have never once tried using a legacy characters as DLC that wasnt a Smash vet. You will never know how something will sell unless you try it at least once...
Smash wouldn't have been as successful as it is today without 3rd parties joining the roster, but it would still be very successful.

It's kind of annoying for me to think about cause had Smash stayed 1st party in Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate we would have probably gotten all the 1st party characters we all want by now like:

Dixie Kong
Krystal
Isaac
Bandana Dee
Waluigi
Ashley
Captain Toad
Funky Kong
Cranky Kong
Medusa
Hades
Viridi

Ect, ect. At this point, if I can just get Krystal and Dixie Kong I'll never ask for another Nintendo character in the roster ever again.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Eventually got the rest of the 1st pass characters and then fighter pass 2 just to have everything, with how happy I already was with Ultimate, even though not all the characters will be for me.

That said, Steve does nothing for me. Maybe if I was a Minecraft fan I’d feel differently about his moveset, but this is way too many gimmicks for one character. Doesn’t feel natural to play at all. Dixie would only have one gimmick at most like with the hair.

More tired of how 3rd parties dominate other fighting series now than I am with their presence in Smash specifically. At least with Smash the Nintendo quota has been mostly filled outside of the few remaining stragglers like Dixie, but still, the 3rd party spam with any series can easily become draining.
 
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~ Valkyrie ~

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I think Cloud is really what ushered in the "anyone can happen" era of Smash speculation. I mean yeah Snake was equally out-there, even as Smash's first third-party character ever, but a lot of people knew that it was a request from Kojima to have Snake in Smash, and not something that Sakurai had to go out of his way to get.

The Smash 4 third parties in base game were Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, and later Ryu, and I know a lot of people thought that line-up made perfect sense at the time. They were undeniably iconic gaming characters, each with long histories that intertwine with Nintendo's in one way or another. Cloud is of course a very iconic character, but he rarely appeared on any console that wasn't owned by Sony. He was the pipe dream that everyone joked about, because they knew it would never happen.

Until it did.
Exactly my point. I feel we could

I feel that in another timeline, I would have actually been amused and okay by addition of Steve as a fighter, considering Nintendo working with Microsoft to produce the Wii U-versions and pushing for him in Ultimate this much anyway. Heck, I'd been okay with likes of Sans since he at least had connection to a Nintendo IP in Smash-franchise anyway. But now we have so many 3rd Parties added and them being so much more popular than any of left-over Nintendo-reps, is making me wonder should this series go fully reboot itself in next installment with cutting more niche-outside-of-Smash characters of the current roster out, such as Little Mac, Duck Hunt, Captain Falcon even, arguably (incase Nintendo be feeling he makes no sense to be in the series due having no games for almost 2 decades now). I might even feel K.Rool, Ridley and to lesser extent, Banjo&Kazooie are most likely the final hugely requested, Nintendo-centric newcomers we're gonna ever receive for Ultimate. Glad they're at least in the boat..

I guess it's just this strange emergence of 3rd Parties that's making Smash way too bigger than it can possibly handle after Ultimate - and along the way, every 3rd Party being added looks to making them appear, whether popular or niche, as important as Mario or other Nintendo's other pop-culture icons like Link, Pikachu or Donkey Kong - and have made way for this whole "None wants your literal whos at Nintendo/3rd Parties Only"-mentality as I've seen posts from 4chan circulate around all last year, along with Smash-franchise being some "status symbol" thing. It's utterly, utterly disheartening.


 

Phoenix Douchebag

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Part of me wonders what an alternate timeline would look like if Smash remained 1st party only. Instead of Sonic, Snake, Joker, Steve, Terry, Ryu, Ken, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Hero, Cloud, Simon, Richtor, Bayonetta, and Banjo (though these last two are a grey area where they're kinda 1st party but technically not) we had idk Dixie, Bandana Dee, Captain Toad, Urshifu, Isaac, Waluigi, Pauline, Medusa, DJ Octavio, Takamaru, Krystal, Tingle, Rex/Pyra, Porky Minch, and Impa (as examples).

Would Ultimate still be as successful on Nintendo fanservice and same gameplay alone? Would 3rd party speculation even exist given we would still be 6 games in without a single 3rd party character? Would Smash as a series even still exist past Brawl? These are interesting questions we will never know the answer to I suppose. Just food for thought given the recent set of discussion. My theory is yes Ultimate would still exist but probably wouldn't be as successful, instead of 20 million copies sold Im willing to guess probably 12 million. While the alternate timeline Ultimate would be my DREAM game I can't deny the reach 3rd party characters have to casuals. Their is a reason Steve broke Twitter when he was announced. Steve is undoubtly the biggest character Nintendo has added to Ultimate period. Because while usually Smash shines a light on a 3rd party franchise, Minecraft is so big for once its doing the opposite where the character is shining a light on Smash. So while yes I dont care for 3rd parties and the overtaking it has on speculation nowadays I do understand why Nintendo values other peoples characters more than their own.

That being said Nintendo could try and get better at using a fan favorite 1st party character as DLC which they have yet to do. The only times we have gotten 1st party characters is when Nintendo wants to shill FE or promote a new IP (ARMS). They have never once tried using a legacy characters as DLC that wasnt a Smash vet. You will never know how something will sell unless you try it at least once...
If Third Parties never made it into Smash, it would have for sure made it past Brawl, because by the time Melee came around the series became one of Nintendo's flagship titles, and there were no Guest characters at that time (although talks were already in motion with Snake and Sonic)

I can definetly see an alternate timeline where talks for Snake and Sonic never got anywhere, which led to Smash beign Nintendo-centric, and if im honest while it may have not become a pop culture phenomenon, it would have been seen as the Mario Kart of Fighting Games. Nintendo's own quirky anwser to a well known genre that has its own spin

I mean Mario Kart only has Mario Characters with some exceptions in the latest game (and its roster makes even the worst Smash Newcomer choices look like godsends) yet it sells great based on the solid gameplay and strong brand alone. It's just that people got spoiled with guests and with Sakurai beign fanboy of gaming in general, he will consume everything gaming-related in his way.

I guess it's just this strange emergence of 3rd Parties that's making Smash way too bigger than it can possibly handle after Ultimate - and along the way, every 3rd Party being added looks to making them appear, whether popular or niche, as important as Mario or other Nintendo's other pop-culture icons like Link, Pikachu or Donkey Kong - and have made way for this whole "None wants your literal whos at Nintendo/3rd Parties Only"-mentality as I've seen posts from 4chan circulate around all last year, along with Smash-franchise being some "status symbol" thing. It's utterly, utterly disheartening
Yeah that's another thing. If Smash didn't try to add multiple guest characters as much as possible, people wouldn't treat it as a hall of fame. No one bats an eye with Dixie Kong missing Mario Kart for the last 8 installments because despite beign a million seller, its roster has never been a major focus (and it shows) Dixie misses Smash and everyone sees her as worthless Wiggy Kong.

I know i sound like i am a "KEEP SMASH NINTENDO" guy but, i can't deny i am NOT a fan of the current hyperfocus on Guest, and never will, and FP1 was the breaking point for me.
 

Planet Cool

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I've stopped trying to figure out why Donkey Kong isn't better-regarded. I always wanna say, "Well, the GameCube didn't have a 'proper' DK game," but Metroid skipped the N64 and I know plenty of people who grew up with the N64 that love Metroid. And it's not the art direction or the fact that it's (largely) a weeb-unfriendly Western series or Crash Bandicoot wouldn't be the most requested character today.

Doesn't matter, though. Donkey Kong is popular. His games may be a joke to a certain subset of the extremely online fanboy set, but if they weren't popular, they wouldn't sell so well (remember, excluding the "Wii" series, DK is Nintendo's fourth most profitable IP). And I still believe that King K. Rool got in because he did so well in the poll. He may have actually won it, not that we'll ever know for sure.

Dixie may not get into Ultimate, but she's one of those characters that will get in eventually, like Waluigi. It's just a matter of time. There was a point in time when King K. Rool seemed extremely improbable and Banjo-Kazooie seemed outright impossible. If Dixie happens to be your favorite, I don't blame you for being bitter, but my advice is to enjoy the characters we already have and enjoy the ride until she inevitably gets in.

Honestly, if anyone or anything stands in the way of Dixie, it's Funky. He (and to a lesser degree, Lanky) are the only DK characters that non-DK normies seem to unironically like. Now don't get me wrong; Funky and Lanky are both lovable characters and if either of them get in, you won't catch me complaining. But Dixie was playable first, has a totally unique gimmick, and consistently ranks very high in Smash fan polls. She's cooler and more popular, and we need to convince Sakurai of that, or else he'll look at the memes and give us Funky instead.

EDIT:

I mean Mario Kart only has Mario Characters with some exceptions in the latest game (and its roster makes even the worst Smash Newcomer choices look like godsends) yet it sells great based on the solid gameplay and strong brand alone.
Call me crazy, but I think Mario Kart 8 Deluxe has easily the best roster in Mario Kart history. All seven Koopalings plus Link and the Inklings? That's all I'll ever need. Though I'll gladly trade those babies for more DK and/or other Nintendo characters.
 
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Lenidem

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Messages
598
I've stopped trying to figure out why Donkey Kong isn't better-regarded. I always wanna say, "Well, the GameCube didn't have a 'proper' DK game," but Metroid skipped the N64 and I know plenty of people who grew up with the N64 that love Metroid. And it's not the art direction or the fact that it's (largely) a weeb-unfriendly Western series or Crash Bandicoot wouldn't be the most requested character today.

Doesn't matter, though. Donkey Kong is popular. His games may be a joke to a certain subset of the extremely online fanboy set, but if they weren't popular, they wouldn't sell so well (remember, excluding the "Wii" series, DK is Nintendo's fourth most profitable IP). And I still believe that King K. Rool got in because he did so well in the poll. He may have actually won it, not that we'll ever know for sure.

Dixie may not get into Ultimate, but she's one of those characters that will get in eventually, like Waluigi. It's just a matter of time. There was a point in time when King K. Rool seemed extremely improbable and Banjo-Kazooie seemed outright impossible. If Dixie happens to be your favorite, I don't blame you for being bitter, but my advice is to enjoy the characters we already have and enjoy the ride until she inevitably gets in.

Honestly, if anyone or anything stands in the way of Dixie, it's Funky. He (and to a lesser degree, Lanky) are the only DK characters that non-DK normies seem to unironically like. Now don't get me wrong; Funky and Lanky are both lovable characters and if either of them get in, you won't catch me complaining. But Dixie was playable first, has a totally unique gimmick, and consistently ranks very high in Smash fan polls. She's cooler and more popular, and we need to convince Sakurai of that, or else he'll look at the memes and give us Funky instead.

EDIT:



Call me crazy, but I think Mario Kart 8 Deluxe has easily the best roster in Mario Kart history. All seven Koopalings plus Link and the Inklings? That's all I'll ever need. Though I'll gladly trade those babies for more DK and/or other Nintendo characters.
As a Zelda fan and someone who likes DK, but not to the point that I'd call myself a fan, in the Mario Kart context, I would replace Link by Diddy without an hesitation. It's just a question of priority. Guests? Why not. But after the familly.
 
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