The Last Nintendo All-Star: Dixie Kong's Barrel of Support Buddies. New Big Top Bop Cover on p. 185 (post #7374)!

BirthNote

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The Mario franchise is on a whole other level from any of the other series. It has the most sold games in history (Pokémon second despite being the best selling media franchise ever), and Mario of course is the poster child of Nintendo. Hence why those series have so many representatives. Not sure why FE has so many as well, but whatever.

But it is a crime that the DK series only had three and just reached that number with this game. I honestly can’t believe Dixie hasn’t gotten in yet. I know she was supposed to get in back during Brawl as one of those cut seven characters. It really doesn’t make sense why she still isn’t in by this game.

Then again the Kirby series still only has three reps and that’s Sakurai’s baby. I’m just really happy K. Rool and Banjo made it in as they were my second and third most wanted. Dixie would be great as well. We really need more female characters and she fits the bill perfectly.

I’m sure you guys would obviously want her to have her own unique move set, but would you guys have been cool with her getting in as a Diddy Echo? Or some kind of half clone like Isabelle is to Villager?
It's a long story. When Echoes got revealed the topic got heated--but not toxic--and flared up often until Isabelle got revealed and things cooled down greatly. To sum it all up: some of us are fine with an Echo, some (like me) are not, and all are fine with an Isabelle /Luigi/Lucas/Wolf style character if not fully unique. Lately however, we've come to trust that Sakurai will make the most faithful and true-to-character incarnation as possible.
 
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I think Dixie down the road will get some sort of trailer highlighting her status as the big female Nintendo all-star not yet playable. Like maybe there’s a gathering of all the playable female characters, like that princess scene in Wreck-It Ralph, and Dixie comes in and shows them up or turns the tide of some fight.

It’s sort of hard doing support right now because the choices are already locked in and there’s this mentality that third party characters are inherently more “hype” DLC than first party characters, leaving characters like Dixie falling behind in current polls. Hopefully that’ll change once DLC wraps and (if she’s not in there somewhere) the shift is back to first parties. With a “new DK experience” somewhere in there too of course.
I think Dixie is a prime candidate for a free DLC with a new fighter pass (akin to Piranha Plant).
 

Mushroomguy12

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I find it funny how we put so much stock in characters being "kept alive" by new games, yet the two new DK universe reps we got this time were long-dead corpses brought back to life.
And the one that's still alive gets passed over even though they're still selling Tropical Freeze for Switch at full price.
 
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Planet Cool

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Oh okay. Thanks for explanation. I didn’t really know much about Dixie Kong other then female version of diddy. Lol...
Dixie isn't "the female version of Diddy" any more than Lola Bunny is the female version of Bugs. Blame Anita Sarkeesian for popularizing the idea that Dixie is a mere distaff counterpart.

I think Dixie down the road will get some sort of trailer highlighting her status as the big female Nintendo all-star not yet playable. Like maybe there’s a gathering of all the playable female characters, like that princess scene in Wreck-It Ralph, and Dixie comes in and shows them up or turns the tide of some fight.
Ooh, I like this! Maybe the trailer can have serial kidnappers like Bowser and Ganon bearing down on Daisy, Peach, and Zelda... only for Dixie to fly in and help them fight back.

It’s sort of hard doing support right now because the choices are already locked in and there’s this mentality that third party characters are inherently more “hype” DLC than first party characters, leaving characters like Dixie falling behind in current polls. Hopefully that’ll change once DLC wraps and (if she’s not in there somewhere) the shift is back to first parties. With a “new DK experience” somewhere in there too of course.
It's not that third-party characters are intrinsically more hype, it's that a lot of fans see the Fighter Pass as their last chance to get their pie-in-the-sky third-party favorites into Smash. (Not that they can, really, since all the characters were probably decided ahead of time.) I'm sure when the next hype cycle rolls around, the focus will be back on first parties, with characters like Dixie and Waluigi at the forefront.

I find it funny how we put so much stock in characters being "kept alive" by new games, yet the two new DK universe reps we got this time were long-dead corpses brought back to life.
People say that but Ganondorf has literally been gone longer than King K. Rool.
 

ze9

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Dixie's best chance for Ultimate is if they do a second DLC pass. Or maybe after the pass they'd just do single fighters with no accompanying stage, like Piranha Plant. Probably all 1st party.
Even then, the competition will be stiff. But with K. Rool and Banjo I think they recognized just how much thirst this fanbase has for Rare characters, and Dixie is really the only big one left.
I think she's not done yet. But we have to wait and see what happens after the Pass ends.

If she comes even as a semi-clone, with 4-5 songs from Tropical Freeze, I'm good.
Just imagine her trailer: Donkey, Diddy, K. Rool, Banjo and Kazooie are all chilling in DK's treehouse.
Suddenly, they hear a loud guitar noise...
 

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People say that but Ganondorf has literally been gone longer than King K. Rool.
Ganondorf hasn’t had new appearances no, but he was kept relevant through remakes of Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess; basically all his appearances. He then also was a playable fighter in Hyrule Warriors and of course Smash, and new Zelda appearances used his boar version.. so he was still kind of around. K.Rool had literally nothing outside of the SNES mini having DKC1 and DK64 being on VC.

Anyway Ganondorf is 99% guaranteed to appear in BotW 2 now, so there’s that.

K.Rool is still really overdue for a new appearance in a DK game.
 

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Dixie isn't "the female version of Diddy" any more than Lola Bunny is the female version of Bugs. Blame Anita Sarkeesian for popularizing the idea that Dixie is a mere distaff counterpart.
Wait, what? I doubt this; I remember even after Diddy was revealed in 2007 people were writing her off as an "obvious" clone along with Bowser Junior. That's long before Anita came along.
 

Mariomaniac45213

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Btw quick thought...

Does anyone else find it weird Sakurai asked Grant Kirkhope to make a Banjo remix for Smash but didnt ask David Wise to come back for any of the new DKC remixes? Dont get me wrong they did a bang-up job with Gangplank, Cacophony, Snakey Chantey, and the Stickerbrush Symphony remixes without him. But it still makes me think what Wise's 2019 Smash version of one of those would've sounded like or even better a remix of any of the other DKC tracks that aren't in Smash.

Oh well hopefully if Dixie gets in a hypothetical 2nd or 3rd fighters pass. He contacts Wise to do a new remix. Also if Dixie does get in I'd love to get some Diddy Kong Racing music in..
 

ze9

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I want Dixie to come with Tropical Freeze music. That soundtrack is just too good, and there's not nearly enough of it in Smash.
Bring me at least Busted Bayou, Windmill Hills, Wing Ding, Grassland Groove, Scorch 'n Torch, Funky Waters, Harvest Hazards, Big Top Bop, Punch Bowl and the Snowmad's Theme. Throw in some DKC2 love, too. I need Hot Head Bop and Mining Melancholy.
And how is it that Smash still doesn't have any Aquatic Ambiance remix?
 

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I think Dixie is a prime candidate for a free DLC with a new fighter pass (akin to Piranha Plant).
I don't think that is happening again just due to the fact that there is evidence that Piranha Plant was probably planned for the base game. Evidence being that Piranha Plant is the only DLC character that has or will have Palutena's Guidance codex to come along with them and the fact he was the only bonus character that was separate from the Season Pass at the moment.

I find it funny how we put so much stock in characters being "kept alive" by new games, yet the two new DK universe reps we got this time were long-dead corpses brought back to life.
While I would like to see Dixie next, there are other Rare corpses I would like to see come back from the dead as well.
 
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StormC

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Btw quick thought...

Does anyone else find it weird Sakurai asked Grant Kirkhope to make a Banjo remix for Smash but didnt ask David Wise to come back for any of the new DKC remixes? Dont get me wrong they did a bang-up job with Gangplank, Cacophony, Snakey Chantey, and the Stickerbrush Symphony remixes without him. But it still makes me think what Wise's 2019 Smash version of one of those would've sounded like or even better a remix of any of the other DKC tracks that aren't in Smash.

Oh well hopefully if Dixie gets in a hypothetical 2nd or 3rd fighters pass. He contacts Wise to do a new remix. Also if Dixie does get in I'd love to get some Diddy Kong Racing music in..
My guess is because K. Rool is an internally owned character by Nintendo. After reaching out to Microsoft/Rare, they were probably like "you should contact Grant Kirkhope for a remix." Sakurai even said he had reservations about working with a foreign musician, but was happy it worked out so well.
 

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Edit: I'm leaving Smashboards until Hero drops so peace guys.

So since Nintendo listened and they'll be adding online play with friends to Super Mario Maker 2, I decided we should try to get the costumes back too! I tried my hand at what Dixie, Cranky, Funky and K. Rool could look like. I'm not an expert on sprites though :laugh:

You did a pretty good job.
 
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BirthNote

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So since Nintendo listened and they'll be adding online play with friends to Super Mario Maker 2, I decided we should try to get the costumes back too! I tried my hand at what Dixie, Cranky, Funky and K. Rool could look like. I'm not an expert on sprites though :laugh:

You said you're not an expert but you kicked *** with these. WELL DONE!
 
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So since Nintendo listened and they'll be adding online play with friends to Super Mario Maker 2, I decided we should try to get the costumes back too! I tried my hand at what Dixie, Cranky, Funky and K. Rool could look like. I'm not an expert on sprites though :laugh:

My ideal DK series character representation for Smash.
 
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\

It's not that third-party characters are intrinsically more hype, it's that a lot of fans see the Fighter Pass as their last chance to get their pie-in-the-sky third-party favorites into Smash. (Not that they can, really, since all the characters were probably decided ahead of time.) I'm sure when the next hype cycle rolls around, the focus will be back on first parties, with characters like Dixie and Waluigi at the forefront.
I really don't think this is true.
From marketing outside of Smash's fanbase, to getting funds to payback the cost of characters, to increasing relationships outside of Nintendo- I see third parties as the practical solution to the fighter pass, inherently more hype to the masses.

I think the most likely chance we have of another fighter pass is if we get a first party character in this pass.
I also think the fanbase is fickle, and generally, not that intelligent. The only reason the pass became seen as a third party given is because of Joker.... long before we had any inclination of other characters, a single release dictated an entire trajectory, for no real reason at all.
 

StormC

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I think the most likely chance we have of another fighter pass is if we get a first party character in this pass.
I also think the fanbase is fickle, and generally, not that intelligent. The only reason the pass became seen as a third party given is because of Joker.... long before we had any inclination of other characters, a single release dictated an entire trajectory, for no real reason at all.
3/4 of the Smash 4 DLC newcomers were third parties, so it's a pretty logical assumption to make. All the characters were coming with stages which also means they would likely be new franchises, and some of the practical choices for new Nintendo IPs (Golden Sun, ARMS) had their mascots as ATs.

What reason was there to think it would be first party after Joker?
 
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I also think the fanbase is fickle, and generally, not that intelligent. The only reason the pass became seen as a third party given is because of Joker.... long before we had any inclination of other characters, a single release dictated an entire trajectory, for no real reason at all.
Reggie's exact words after Joker's reveal: "These are going to be characters that are new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5; characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.".

Not a confirmation of an all third-party cast by any means, but I could see how it's interpreted as an implication.
 

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I really don't think this is true.
From marketing outside of Smash's fanbase, to getting funds to payback the cost of characters, to increasing relationships outside of Nintendo- I see third parties as the practical solution to the fighter pass, inherently more hype to the masses.
I'm not sure you're actually disagreeing with me here? I do think the Fighter Pass characters will all be third-party, but I don't think we're just going to stop getting first-party characters either, be it in future DLC or in the next game. I'll be very surprised if Dixie, Waluigi, and Spring Man aren't in Smash 6.
 
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I don't think that is happening again just due to the fact that there is evidence that Piranha Plant was probably planned for the base game. Evidence being that Piranha Plant is the only DLC character that has or will have Palutena's Guidance codex to come along with them and the fact he was the only bonus character that was separate from the Season Pass at the moment.
There are reasons to believe Piranha was going to be in the base game- what you stated, the Spirit upgrade to Petey NOT being Piranha.
But its still a theory. We may not get another surprise/bonus character for DLC packs, but frankly, fighters passes are on a bases of diminishing returns- numerically, the longer they are continually released, the less they will make. It makes better marketing sense to give us more freebies going forward (whether that be in the form of stages, echoes, or elsewise), rather than less freebies.
Or maybe we just wont get another pass.... though I hope we do.

3/4 of the Smash 4 DLC newcomers were third parties, so it's a pretty logical assumption to make. All the characters were coming with stages which also means they would likely be new franchises, and some of the practical choices for new Nintendo IPs (Golden Sun, ARMS) had their mascots as ATs.

What reason was there to think it would be first party after Joker?
First- there were 7 DLC characters for Smash 4, the '3/4' isnt an accurate portrayal. Veterans were still PAID DLC. You cannot just discount them to make your numbers sound in your favor, that's significantly skewing the statistics and gives insight into the rest of how you will pursue a form of logic.

Second- practical choice for DLC? That's still just basing the idea in your favor. Piranha Plant is anything but a practical choice. There are many other franchises who could have gotten a character (Rhythm Heaven, Balloon Fight), or even just characters we know were considered in the past (Dixie).

Third- You didnt build any case for why Joker changed the game. I can see that you wanted to lead to an argument that Third Party characters were logical from the beginning, but the reveal of Joker did nothing for this, which is what I was saying.

I'm not sure you're actually disagreeing with me here? I do think the Fighter Pass characters will all be third-party, but I don't think we're just going to stop getting first-party characters either, be it in future DLC or in the next game. I'll be very surprised if Dixie, Waluigi, and Spring Man aren't in Smash 6.
The singular way I think we are getting another Smash with MORE characters (and not a reboot) is if its a port of Ultimate with additions made and Sakurai brought in to balance and consult. There is almost no way that a new Smash after this would not be a reboot, and likely with a new director.

I can defend this if you want, but I have to get back to moving. My biggest support is moving out of the state today. He's taking my dog friend. It's a rough morning, so I'm on Smash to celebrate and distract. But reality is still here.
On the plus side, I am pretty certain that I convinced him that the management and simplicity of Animal Crossing will be a good investment. I may have turned him into a gamer.
 
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ze9

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I think Joker and the Smash 4 precedent made it pretty obvious that the Pass would be all 3rd-party.
Back in Smash 4, the 3rd party characters were the only ones getting a stage, and this time, they said right from the start that every character of the Pass would come with a stage, so there was already that connection.
Then they introduced Joker, and Reggie said that he'd be "emblematic" of the direction they wanted to take with DLC... I think it was a pretty safe bet.

I was more worried that every character would be like Joker: recent, fairly random and not very Nintendo-related, in a fruitless and alienating pursue of "new demographics". I wuoldn't have liked a Pass like that in the slightest.
Thankfully Banjo and the Heroes have changed that.
 

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I was more worried that every character would be like Joker: recent, fairly random and not very Nintendo-related, in a fruitless and alienating pursue of "new demographics". I wuoldn't have liked a Pass like that in the slightest.
Thankfully Banjo and the Heroes have changed that.
Yes, Banjo-Kazooie and the Dragon Quest Heroes saved the Fighter Pass for me, too. I’d have been disappointed if all the DLC characters were like Joker - “not very Nintendo-related” - since I prefer playing games on Nintendo consoles.

Because I play almost exclusively on Nintendo consoles, Joker was a “literally who” to me while I knew who Banjo-Kazooie and the Dragon Quest Heroes were and I did support for them to get in Smash.
 

Mushroomguy12

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I was more worried that every character would be like Joker: recent, fairly random and not very Nintendo-related, in a fruitless and alienating pursue of "new demographics". I wuoldn't have liked a Pass like that in the slightest.
I’d have been disappointed if all the DLC characters were like Joker - “not very Nintendo-related” - since I prefer playing games on Nintendo consoles.

Because I play almost exclusively on Nintendo consoles, Joker was a “literally who” to me while I knew who Banjo-Kazooie and the Dragon Quest Heroes were and I did support for them to get in Smash.

Joker's home series, Shin Megami Tensei, has had a direct crossover with Fire Emblem and has appeared on Nintendo consoles dating back to the Super Famicom all the way to the Switch (Shin Megami Tensei V was one of the first games to be announced for Switch). He was added because of his base series's ties to Nintendo, similar to how Cloud was added because of FF 1-6's presence on Nintendo systems, with both series having direct individual crossovers with First Party Nintendo IPs (Mario Sports Mix and Hoops 3 on 3 for FF and SMT x FE for SMT). Cloud and Joker happened to be the most popular of their series, which is why they were added. Also Persona has been on the 3DS multiple times.


So much for your "not very Nintendo-related" claim.
 
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Arcadenik

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Joker's home series, Shin Megami Tensei, has had a direct crossover with Fire Emblem and has appeared on Nintendo consoles dating back to the Super Famicom all the way to the Switch (Shin Megami Tensei V was one of the first games to be announced for Switch). He was added because of his base series's ties to Nintendo, similar to how Cloud was added because of FF 1-6's presence on Nintendo systems, with both series having direct individual crossovers with First Party Nintendo IPs (Mario Sports Mix and Hoops 3 on 3 for FF and SMT x FE for SMT). Cloud and Joker happened to be the most popular of their series, which is why they were added.


So much for your "not very Nintendo-related" claim.
So... where are the Shin Megami Tensei stuff in Smash? Where’s Jack Frost? Where’s that green penis monster with tentacles?

Saying Joker represents Shin Megami Tensei series is like saying Mario represents Donkey Kong series. Joker represents Persona series only and that’s why there are only Persona Mii costumes and spirits.

The Persona game he starred in was a PS4 game. That was what I meant by “not very Nintendo-related”.

Also, I didn’t have a connection with Shin Megami Tensei despite its history on Nintendo consoles since the 1980s because most of their games were Japan-only. The first Shin Megami Tensei game to make it to America was in 2004 and it was on the PS2. The first Persona game came to America in 1996 and it was on the PS1. The main games (1-5) in the Persona series were on PlayStation consoles. So I was under the impression Joker was “not very Nintendo-related” and why he was a “literally who” to me.
 

Mushroomguy12

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So... where are the Shin Megami Tensei stuff in Smash? Where’s Jack Frost? Where’s that green penis monster with tentacles?
Same as the Final Fantasy 1-6 stuff, they weren't seen as a priority, similar to certain things for Dragon Quest weren't seen as a priority, (something you seemed to be more than OK with).

Persona is more popular just like FF7 was more popular and as a result was chosen as the representative for the whole series, again like DQ.
Saying Joker represents Shin Megami Tensei series is like saying Mario represents Donkey Kong series. Joker represents Persona series only and that’s why there are only Persona Mii costumes and spirits.
Cloud still represents all of Final Fantasy despite not having any content from the first six games. Joker is no less qualified than him or Snake.
 
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ze9

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Joker's home series, Shin Megami Tensei, has had a direct crossover with Fire Emblem and has appeared on Nintendo consoles dating back to the Super Famicom all the way to the Switch (Shin Megami Tensei V was one of the first games to be announced for Switch). He was added because of his base series's ties to Nintendo, similar to how Cloud was added because of FF 1-6's presence on Nintendo systems, with both series having direct individual crossovers with First Party Nintendo IPs (Mario Sports Mix and Hoops 3 on 3 for FF and SMT x FE for SMT). Cloud and Joker happened to be the most popular of their series, which is why they were added. Also Persona has been on the 3DS multiple times.


So much for your "not very Nintendo-related" claim.
The fact you had to write all this much to justify it means that it's not a very Nintendo-related inclusion.
When I think abut "Nintendo-related series", the stuff that comes to my mind is Banjo-Kazooie, Megaman, Pac-man, Sonic. Or, staying outside of Smash, Bomberman, Professor Layton, Ace Attorney, Chrono Trigger, Resident Evil, things like that.
Certainly not Persona, which never even had a single mainline game released on a Nintendo console.
 
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similar to certain things for Dragon Quest weren't seen as a priority, (something you seemed to be more than OK with).
I’m fine with the lack of Shin Megami Tensei content because Joker only represents Persona series. Smash Ultimate didn’t even get one music nor one spirit from Shin Megami Tensei series. Even Tsubasa Oribe, a character from that Fire Emblem x Shin Megami Tensei crossover game, got two spirits and she’s grouped with the Fire Emblem spirits and not with the Persona spirits or even Other spirits (along with the third party spirits like Shantae and Shovel Knight).

And that Dragon Quest topic is finished.

Back to topic... so... Dixie Kong! Oh, hey the person who created King K. Rool and Banjo-Kazooie back in the 1990s also created Dixie Kong and he supports Dixie for Smash!

 

GoodGrief741

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The fact you had to write all this much to justify it means that it's not a very Nintendo-related inclusion.
When I think abut "Nintendo-related series", the stuff that comes to my mind is Banjo-Kazooie, Megaman, Pac-man, Sonic. Or, staying outside of Smash, Bomberman, Professor Layton, Ace Attorney, Chrono Trigger, Resident Evil, things like that.
Certainly not Persona, which never even had a single mainline game released on a Nintendo console.
The fact that they had to write so much to justify it means that this is a discussion and arguments are used.

When you think of Nintendo you think of Resident Evil? Great! A lot of people don't, though. So maybe what people perceive doesn't matter at all.
 

Mushroomguy12

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The fact you had to write all this much to justify it means that it's not a very Nintendo-related inclusion.
Each line I wrote is independent of the previous. This isn't some long conspiracy of connections, like trying to link multiple chains of crossovers in a single straight line, but rather building many individual chains to link two points.

The way you phrase it makes it look like I was trying to say that SMT crossed over with another series that crossed over with another series that crossed over with another series and that crossed over with Nintendo and that's why I was trying too hard to justify it, when in reality I was listing a long list of ties SMT directly had to Nintendo.
 
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Reila

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SMT and Persona aren't related in my view and I am glad they kept SMT out of Smash. Persona sticks out like a sore thumb, SMT would stick out even more. That said, a SMT fighter would have more sense than a Persona one since SMT is more closely related to Nintendo systems. However, the most iconic SMT fellow comes from a PlayStation 2 game (Hitoshura/Demified from Nocturne), so... Wait, never mind, we have Cloud in Smash.
 
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