The Last Nintendo All-Star: Dixie Kong's Barrel of Support Buddies. Here in Spirit.

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Saw Reggie's tweet and saw this
Retro sent him a tribute picture with DK, Diddy, Dixie, and Samus in it. What a wonderful tribute to a great man who did a lot during his tenure at president of Nintendo of America. Thank you for your dedication to Nintendo and the fans, Reggie. Enjoy your retirement.
 
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Can someone remind me about the Ponytail thing? Was it a model found in a datamine? I can't remember. I am a bit relieved it wasn't female Joker. It would have been cool and all but unnecessary, I guess... I dunno.
It was a string of code found in a datamine for a costume for an unknown fighter named "Jane" with "ponyhair" included. It was found with code for Joker ("Jack" in the code) so people thought it might be a female Joker alt.
 

Mariomaniac45213

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While that Retro picture is fantastic and Im glad Dixie was included (shows Retro has a soft spot for her). The fact that that Mario statue is blocking a seemingly new character probably means Retro wasnt working on a 3rd entry of their DKC series. So either that new IP will be revealed at E3 and it was being worked on before they were tasked with Prime 4 or it was being worked on but cancelled and was kept on the picture for Reggie as a memento of their original creation.

Either way looks like we're probably stuck with a Tropical Freeze port as the only DK experience on Switch for awhile, unless god forbid Nintendo went back to Paon to develop another DK game... *shudders*
 
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GoodGrief741

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While that Retro picture is fantastic and Im glad Dixie was included (shows Retro has a soft spot for her). The fact that that Mario statue is blocking a seemingly new character probably means Retro wasnt working on a 3rd entry of their DKC series. So either that new IP will be revealed at E3 and it was being worked on before they were tasked with Prime 4 or it was being worked on but cancelled and was kept on the picture for Reggie as a memento of their original creation.

Either way looks like we're probably stuck with a Tropical Freeze port as the only DK experience on Switch for awhile, unless god forbid Nintendo went back to Paon to develop another DK game... *shudders*
Or the new character is for a new DKC.
 

ze9

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Hello there, this is my first post. I've been a lurker for a long time but right now I feel like joining in the discussions, and, yeah, I kind of wanted my first post to be in the Dixie thread.
I've been extremely happy with Ultimate, it feels great to play. the Everyone is here thing was fantastic, and even though I was already a fan only of Ridley and K. Rool, I loved every single newcomer in the base game. They're all very different and charming, and very fun to play as. ...But! But Dixie is the one piece that really feels missing from the roster (apart from Banjo & Kazooie, but they're a special case), so I want to show my support for her. I mean this without any hostility since I love the majority of them, but it's kind of sad to see all these relatively random 3d party characters always getting in ahead of an iconic and beloved Nintendo character like Dixie. She's got what it takes and then some, should have been in a long time ago.
I don't exactly have a good feeling about the fighters' pass (didn't purchase it), but that jane_ponytail thing sure is interesting, especially now that it's confirmed Joker has no female alt. Hope we learn more soon.

As for me... I've been playing Smash since the 64, and I'm a big DKC fan. Played each and every one of them to death, DK64 and Jungle Beat included. Love the series. Tropical Freeze in particular I think is the best 2d platformer ever made, and by far at that. Though I also adore DKC2. Aside from DKC, other favorites of mine are Mother, Metroid, F-Zero and of course, Zelda.

But enough about me. As for how Dixie should play, in my opinion she has to be almost completely original. She may share a couple of moves with the other kongs (the popgun and the hand/hair slap, more than anything), but everything else should be unique to her. Actually, I think if Sakurai saw her working as a relatively low-effort clone she would have been in already. I think only a select few of Diddy's A moves would fit her, and her ponytail abilities and general mannerisms and movement speed from the original trilogy are more then enough to build a new moveset relatively from scratch. Both the up B and the side B can be something with her hair, I mean there's so much potential: she may use her ponytail as a command grab, or to propel herself forwards like she does in TF when she's underwater, then of course there's the helicopter twirl... and who knows what else.
Speaking of the moveset, this is the one thing that's giving me a bit more hope about Dixie. It feels like Sakurai toyed with the idea of a playable Dixie a bit more seriously this time. Like, look at her enhanced spirit and tell me if that isn't Sakurai's idea for her final smash. When I thought about it, and when I read about it online, the ideas for Dixie's final smash always revolved around the animal buddies or the electric guitar. I never saw her vehicle from DKC3 as a suggestion, but... of course that would be it. She hits you with her final smash, and a cutscene triggers with your character falling in a lake in the northern Kremisphere and getting run over by Dixie's hovercraft thing. So natural, and yet from what I know nobody ever thought about it. It just feels like a very Sakurai thing.
Plus there's the Mii wig, the double icon in the online mode, I think a reference in the classic mode mural... I mean, we know that Isabelle represents Dixie in her spirit battle. And in the Classic mural, Diddy is right next to, you guessed it, Isabelle, in a way that's kind of reminiscent of DKC2's title screen. I dunno, maybe it's a stretch but to me it really feels like Dixie was considered a bit more seriously this time.
I think she's more likely for a Smash 6 than for Ultimate, but I want her in Ultimate, damn it. Here's hoping!
 
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ZeroJanitor

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Saw Reggie's tweet and saw this
Retro sent him a tribute picture with DK, Diddy, Dixie, and Samus in it. What a wonderful tribute to a great man who did a lot during his tenure at president of Nintendo of America. Thank you for your dedication to Nintendo and the fans, Reggie. Enjoy your retirement.
retro's picture is really great, its a nice tribute, it has metroid and donkey kong together, and dixie looks really nice... but i really want to talk about the butt next to it
 
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retro's picture is really great, its a nice tribute, it has metroid and donkey kong together, and dixie looks really nice... but i really want to talk about the butt next to it
Reggie's still gotta kick *** even in retirement.

I got to agree here that Dixie looks really vibrant in that picture and also, who is that figure in the bottom left corner with the mechanical hand? Did Diddy get a new mechanical arm or is it a brand new character?
 
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GoodGrief741

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retro's picture is really great, its a nice tribute, it has metroid and donkey kong together, and dixie looks really nice... but i really want to talk about the butt next to it
Let's talk then
Reggie's still gotta kick *** even in retirement.

I got to agree here that Dixie looks really vibrant in that picture and also, who is that figure in the bottom left corner with the mechanical hand? Did Diddy get a new mechanical arm or is it a brand new character?
As a response to Diddy being the least helpful sidekick in Tropical Freeze, they gave him a roboarm. Now he's Mecha-Diddy.
 
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Justin Little

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This new Robot character is either:
A. From a new IP
B. A new buddy "Kong" for either Donkey Kong or Samus from their new game.
C. Diddy has his own sidekick for his own spin-off game. That hopefully includes a playable Dixie Kong too with her own Robot sidekick.

I'm leaning towards A, but while this may scream bad news for a new DKC from Retro, it does probably mean their project wasn't in trouble after all. Who knows, maybe they were developing another DKC during development for this new game with a smaller team, and it's due to release next year. They have been quiet for a long time so maybe they were working on 2 projects: A new IP and a new DKC. :)
 
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While that Retro picture is fantastic and Im glad Dixie was included (shows Retro has a soft spot for her). The fact that that Mario statue is blocking a seemingly new character probably means Retro wasnt working on a 3rd entry of their DKC series. So either that new IP will be revealed at E3 and it was being worked on before they were tasked with Prime 4 or it was being worked on but cancelled and was kept on the picture for Reggie as a memento of their original creation.

Either way looks like we're probably stuck with a Tropical Freeze port as the only DK experience on Switch for awhile, unless god forbid Nintendo went back to Paon to develop another DK game... *shudders*
That's my biggest fear for the Donkey Kong Franchise this generation too, As amazing as Tropical Freeze is and hands down the best 2D Platformer ever made, I kind of fear that Nintendo will treat the Switch port and DK Adventure DLC as "Enough" for the franchise this console cycle and markets it towards the mass audience as a "New Release and Experience" as they do with many other Wii U ports as they try to sweep the console's legacy under the rug though I can't blame them from a business perspective since it's actually pretty damn smart.

But things are looking up for the franchise, It's in the best shape it has been since the Rareware era thanks to Retro Studios reviving the Country series on Wii and Wii U/Switch, King K. Rool finally returning into the spotlight as a major newcomer for Super Smash Bros with overwhelming positivity which Nintendo finally recognizes him and cements him as DK's main antagonist for future games in the franchise, Donkey Kong is a "Top 5" Nintendo franchise sales and brand wise so I'm sure Nintendo would make sure to keep it that way and every major Nintendo console has had a major Donkey Kong game, Coincidently most of them towards the later half of the console life cycle so I expect them same will happen on the Switch whether it's another Country or 3D Platformer, So there is still some reason to be optimistic.

NES: Donkey Kong Arcade/Jr./3
SNES: Donkey Kong Country 1-3
N64: Donkey Kong 64
Gamecube: Jungle Beat
Wii: Returns
Wii U: Tropical Freeze
Switch: ?

One thing I will say about Paon is that while their output on DK games weren't great or mediocre at best, They at least respected the legacy and world that Rare created for the franchise like in "Barrel Blast" and still utilized King K .Rool, Kremlings, Animal foes (Zingers & Neckies), Enguarde, Lanky Kong, Tiny Kong, Not sure why they didn't add Chunky Kong ,But you get the point.
 
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Saw Reggie's tweet and saw this
Retro sent him a tribute picture with DK, Diddy, Dixie, and Samus in it. What a wonderful tribute to a great man who did a lot during his tenure at president of Nintendo of America. Thank you for your dedication to Nintendo and the fans, Reggie. Enjoy your retirement.
Not gonna lie, it's great that he's actually getting a notebook with that photoshopped image of him shooting eye beams on the cover. One hell of a retirement gift for one hell of a guy.

That's my biggest fear for the Donkey Kong Franchise this generation too, As amazing as Tropical Freeze is and hands down the best 2D Platformer ever made, I kind of fear that Nintendo will treat the Switch port and DK Adventure DLC as "Enough" for the franchise this console cycle and markets it towards the mass audience as a "New Release and Experience" as they do with many other Wii U ports as they try to sweep the console's legacy under the rug though I can't blame them from a business perspective since it's actually pretty damn smart.

But things are looking up for the franchise, It's in the best shape it has been since the Rareware era thanks to Retro Studios reviving the Country series on Wii and Wii U/Switch, King K. Rool finally returning into the spotlight as a major newcomer for Super Smash Bros with overwhelming positivity which Nintendo finally recognizes him and cements him as DK's main antagonist for future games in the franchise, Donkey Kong is a "Top 5" Nintendo franchise sales and brand wise so I'm sure Nintendo would make sure to keep it that way and every major Nintendo console has had a major Donkey Kong game, Coincidently most of them towards the later half of the console life cycle so I expect them same will happen on the Switch whether it's another Country or 3D Platformer, So there is still some reason to be optimistic.

NES: Donkey Kong Arcade/Jr./3
SNES: Donkey Kong Country 1-3
N64: Donkey Kong 64
Gamecube: Jungle Beat
Wii: Returns
Wii U: Tropical Freeze
Switch: ?

One thing I will say about Paon is that while their output on DK games weren't great or mediocre at best, They at least respected the legacy and world that Rare created for the franchise like in "Barrel Blast" and still utilized King K .Rool, Kremlings, Animal foes (Zingers & Neckies), Enguarde, Lanky Kong, Tiny Kong, Not sure why they didn't add Chunky Kong ,But you get the point.
While that Retro picture is fantastic and Im glad Dixie was included (shows Retro has a soft spot for her). The fact that that Mario statue is blocking a seemingly new character probably means Retro wasnt working on a 3rd entry of their DKC series. So either that new IP will be revealed at E3 and it was being worked on before they were tasked with Prime 4 or it was being worked on but cancelled and was kept on the picture for Reggie as a memento of their original creation.

Either way looks like we're probably stuck with a Tropical Freeze port as the only DK experience on Switch for awhile, unless god forbid Nintendo went back to Paon to develop another DK game... *shudders*
Paon completely stopped making games after 2015, so I don't think we'd get anything from them.

But if this new IP was cancelled, why hide it then? That bothers me.
 

Reila

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Haven't been here in a while, I actually kind of dropped Smash but I am planning to get back to it. Still very much hoping for Dixie even though I still have a feeling we will only get third party reps or only RPG people like Joker. I hope I am wrong though.
 
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lately i'm thinking that a character being a spirit isn't necessarily a dealbreaker: smash has broken their own rules before and if they really wanted to they could probably promote a spirit to playable. that said, Joker and Persona's representation had a LOT of effort put into them, which sets the standard for the future DLC. and sadly i just can't imagine Dixie having that same kind of wow factor. everybody always says that Dixie is a safe/obvious pick and i think that hurts her more than helps at this point.
Maybe. or maybe that is why she is my number one pick as the next 'Piranha Plant' freebie!
If we get more season passes, I do think we will get more freebies. Maybe even echoes as bonus, as well.
I think the most obvious two picks for this slot would be Captain Toad and Dixie. Maybe even more the latter who could use some assets from Diddy.

I don't actually see any of the fighters passes being used on existing franchises. Likely not even Pokemon.
So here's for Eevee, Toad, and Dixie as freebies 2, 3, and 4!

Okay... double post somehow...my browser must be having an issue with how I'm seeing some things

Check it, my dudes. An extended DK Rap that sings the praises of every playable Kong (unless you're Kiddy)
Jump to 2:20 for the one you're all listening for.


It was fun...
but its mising more than just Kiddy.
No Candy.
No Wrinkly.
No DK jr.
No Swanky Kong.
 
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On the whole "does Jane refer to a newcomer with a ponytail", the answer is that the character is 90% likely associated with Joker (most likely an alt, or at best a planned echo fighter).

Vaanrose, a very reputable poster, made a detailed case about this in a recent post:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ult...ppreciation-week-edition.467706/post-23248574

Just popping in a day late to specify that a .mchp file is a cached vertex animation. You take a model, run non-realtime physics simulation on it, and then store the changes each vertex makes throughout the length of the animation into a cache file. This allows you to run an animation that alters each vertex position on each frame to look exactly like it was driven by physics, without it actually being driven by physics. It's stored data that, when played in realtime, appears to be dynamically calculated, and is one of many tricks video games use to render as fast as they need to. It is not simply a placeholder template for any kind of hair, like he offers as a potential explanation; it's specifically linked to the exact mesh and even a single vertex out of place renders it unusable.

I haven't spent any time studying Ultimate or its physics engine to state this definitively, but the mere presence of a cached vertex animation suggests that the in-game hair isn't physics driven at all. It only appears that way because every animation a character has has a corresponding hair animation that was calculated in Maya.

What can we conclude based on this? "Jane" was far enough along in the development pipeline to have cached vertex animation. This means that she'd already have a model, said model would already be rigged, said rig would already be animated, and only then, the animation was used to calculate the way the vertexes will animate. Whoever "Jane" is, she was/is near the very end of the development pipeline, and I very much doubt she's scrapped content for that reason.

Here is what she is not:

1.) Any of the background characters. Joker is still referred to as "Jack" in the code, post-release, while all his party members (most notably, of course, being Ann) are referred to with their respective P5 codenames. Ann is "panther," not Jane.

2.) Morgana. It's been suggested the ponytail is Morgana's tail, but Morgana's tail is not a vertex animation. It's a skeletal bone animation that may have secondary physics attached to it under certain animations, but this is a wholly separate spring joint physics system, rather than cached Maya hair. This sort of system is considerably less expensive to render in realtime and is used all over the place.

This poster is correct that, usually, the female and male alts alternate. This isn't only different gender alts, however, but all separate model alts. The two versions of Link, Ike, Wario, Cloud and Bayonetta also alternate, despite not being divided by gender. Therefore, the alts do not alternate because they are separated by gender, they alternate simply because they're alts. There's a notable exception to this, however. Olimar and Alph are separated with four Olimars, and then four Alphs.

I believe this sets a precedent for characters that are explicitly different characters to not alternate, but instead separate them into two groupings. They may be the same character functionally, but they are not the same character thematically. What little we know about this new Persona girl suggests that, even if she fulfills the same in-universe role as Joker, she is still a different character, being at the very least in a different year. It's likely that, as with P3's female protagonist before her, she'll also have a different name and different personality. Even if she is "Joker," she very much will not be just the distaff counterpart to the male version. We'll know whether this is truly the case or not next week.

There is also the fact that, when a character only has one or two alts, they are always the last costume slots. Mario, Little Mac, and Ridley are all this way, and now Joker is, too, with his c06 and c07 alts being his school outfit. I believe it is completely in line with current conventions if Joker's last two slots were originally intended to be female Joker, perhaps only getting two instead of four because she's not an established character and it's unknown yet if she'd be as warmly received as male Joker has been. And taken at face value, the "Jack6" and "Jane1" strings are connected. If Joker originally had four Jane alts, then "Jack6" would be "Jane3," but if he only had two, then "Jane1" would, indeed, be correct.

With this established, I think the notion that "Jack6_C06_v01_070925.mb" and "Jane1_pony_hairSystemShape2.mchp" are wholly separate strings only coincidentally next to each other in the junk data is unlikely. Possible? Yes. But I'd bet against it. Instead I'll offer a much simpler explanation:

These two separate files are next to each other in the junk data because they were stored in the same folder. Because that's exactly the correct workflow for this kind of thing. Your character file is stored next to its necessary secondary files, like animations and caches. These secondary files are then referenced into the main mb file when needed. This makes it easy to replace them, and the next time you load the mb asset, the new file is automatically loaded in.
and this post:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ult...ppreciation-week-edition.467706/post-23250454

I tested this myself and can confirm "[x].mb_hairSystemShape.mchp" is the way Maya automatically handles hair system cache filenames. Joker and Jane are 100% connected and she is not Jill, Lara or any other random girl with a ponytail.
Anyone that believes Dixie Kong is "Jane" (or any other character without a connection to Joker) is setting themselves up to be disappointed.

I am sorry to bring this unfortunate news, but I do not want to see Dixie Kong fans put their hope in yet another "mirage".
 
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On the whole "does Jane refer to a newcomer with a ponytail", the answer is that the character is 90% likely associated with Joker (most likely an alt, or at best a planned echo fighter).

Vaanrose, a very reputable poster, made a detailed case about this in a recent post:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ult...ppreciation-week-edition.467706/post-23248574



and this post:
https://smashboards.com/threads/ult...ppreciation-week-edition.467706/post-23250454



Anyone that believes Dixie Kong is "Jane" (or any other character without a connection to Joker) is setting themselves up to be disappointed.

I am sorry to bring this unfortunate news, but I do not want to see Dixie Kong fans put their hope in yet another "mirage".
Yeah, I wasn't thinking that Dixie was Jane at all. However, it's good to have confirmation with this info, thanks for the heads up ChronoBound.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Question to the room:

Get Dixie in Smash, or have a fully realized DKCR3 (with K Rool, animal buddies, collectibles, more Kongs- the works)??
Dixie in Smash Ultimate. Not in a later game with a bunch of cut characters, Ultimate or the second option.

The second option's bound to happen eventually anyway in one shape or another.
 
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Question to the room:

Get Dixie in Smash, or have a fully realized DKCR3 (with K Rool, animal buddies, collectibles, more Kongs- the works)??
DKCR3 without hesitation, Don't get me wrong I like Dixie Kong and would like her in Smash, But at least we still have DK, Diddy and K. Rool to fall back on. Sacrificing the next entry in the Country series (Likely developed by Retro) with the likely chance of having King K. Rool, Kremlings, More animal buddies and returning Kongs which would likely include Dixie too is absolutely not worth it.

The future state and health of the franchise as a whole is more important than a single character from same franchise entering Super Smash Bros.
 
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DKCR3 without hesitation, Don't get me wrong I like Dixie Kong and would like her in Smash, But at least we still have DK, Diddy and K. Rool to fall back on. Sacrificing the next entry in the Country series (Likely developed by Retro) with the likely chance of having King K. Rool, Kremlings, More animal buddies and returning Kongs which would likely include Dixie too is absolutely not worth it.

The future state and health of the franchise as a whole is more important than a single character from same franchise entering Super Smash Bros.
That's some logical thought process going on there.
I comment you.
Enguarde!
 

GoodGrief741

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Question to the room:

Get Dixie in Smash, or have a fully realized DKCR3 (with K Rool, animal buddies, collectibles, more Kongs- the works)??
Dixie in Smash. I can do with a DKCR3 without all of the above, because I know whatever we get will be great regardless. Dixie in Smash though, that's far from a sure thing as we stand so I want to ensure that.
 

Koopaul

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The future state and health of the franchise as a whole is more important than a single character from same franchise entering Super Smash Bros.
Couldn't agree more. People seem to forget this and think that getting into Smash is the most important thing that could happen to a character. The truth is having your favorite character be a staple in a thriving franchise is more important. Captain Falcon has been in every Smash Bros game but he is still in a sorry situation.
 
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Justin Little

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Question to the room:

Get Dixie in Smash, or have a fully realized DKCR3 (with K Rool, animal buddies, collectibles, more Kongs- the works)??
Both are the only right answer. :shades:

On the topic of Jane, if she is indeed a planned echo fighter for Joker then this would make a good case for echo fighters being DLC separate from the character pass. Obviously, I don't want Dixie to be one, but this might mean good news for my main man Funky Kong.
 

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Mariomaniac45213

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Question to the room:

Get Dixie in Smash, or have a fully realized DKCR3 (with K Rool, animal buddies, collectibles, more Kongs- the works)??
DKCR3 by a LONG mile. I love Dixie but I've come to terms she stands no chance as DLC and it will probably be more lame obscure 3rd party anime looking JRPG characters with a predictable down B counter and kinda OP. MEH!

Now a DKCR 3 with everything you said and more varied bonus rooms thats something I would throw my future daughter off a cliff to recieve. The DK franchise needs more games. I miss when DK was a yearly franchise. Nowadays we get 1 DK game every 5 years or so with a port of the last one in between. That **** is getting real old...for a franchise that sells as well as it does sure does get the short end of the stick.
 

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Couldn't agree more. People seem to forget this and think that getting into Smash is the most important thing that could happen to a character. The truth is having your favorite character be a staple in a thriving franchise is more important. Captain Falcon has been in every Smash Bros game but he is still in a sorry situation.
Conversely, we have Captain Toad, a character being constantly denied from Smash Bros up to this day, yet as of late seems to keep on getting interesting support from Nintendo via DLC for a 5-year old game, maintaining him in a very reputable presence in Nintendo-communities (even if not many exactly talk about the guy, that is.)

Sorta has me feel that being in Smash is more making that character to a "hip and trendy" fella, in expense of their origins. It's kinda jarring realization I've been noticing over time. :100:





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muT...0984F9ewJqednOSWrAhK3-Xchx30D9y7Q2HjdI0pa2Fho

Seeing as Joker borrows A LOT of moves from other characters, do you think this increases the odds of Dixie making it into the game as an Isabelle type character?

They could take a lot of the animation data from Diddy, while still making her feel unique.
So I wasn't alone making this observation... makes me kinda worried about the next DLC-characters having similarly built movesets, as they'd come uninspired to me over time.

On Dixie though, I feel a Brawl-esque semi-clone that Isabelle's been fortunately bringing back after such long absence, could work nicely on Dixie, and perhaps build her off in same kind of principle as how she was portrayed back-to-back with Diddy in DKC2, being a more floatier and airborne of the two.
 
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It's rather amazing how Miyamoto allowed DK-series be given as much creative freedom as we'd get to see when Country-games were fully realized, especially when today, the DK-series has arguably more "cartoony" feel to it, right down to characterization and portrayal of it's world. I mean, just compared Donkey Kong from the 90s to current DK, which now feels more a Scooby Doo-esque buffoon- like Miyamoto wanted all along, but not enough to make that charismatic to star in his own games anymore beyond his well-known name... like a certain rival of Mario has become due his "grossness". Same goes for the today's powerup Kongs of DK, that all were shown, or implied to be competent back in the good ol' days.).

As I mentioned above, DK's series currently, since Return, has had rather uninspired world at best that's laid on "whatever goes in according to gameplay, takes precedence", to keep it as easy mold to whatever gameplay ideas it can take as Mario-series could, starting with Jungle Beat to Returns and Tropical Freeze. Yet here we are with DK-series not even getting a dedicated studio anymore since it seems too much work for Nintendo to invest on, and Mario-series would do better what DK-series has been tried to be designated as under Retro Studios's hands (which I wonder how much direction from Miyamoto or other Nintendo's higherups they had to take from.)

To remember just how original DKC-series and it's own lore was , with it's worldbuilding feeling more consistent and actually caring about the elements it puts in DK's world, instead of just throwing in various cartoony villains we'd never see again in the next installment, due how loose the settings and connection between the games feel. It's a sad thing because Snowmads feel like they'd have so much potential, but I know they won't ever make a return in hypothetical DKCR3-game. Then there's the thing about inhabiting DK's world with such uninspired and stocky animal characters at times, like the generic monkeys in Jungle Beat, or Doctor Chops in both DKCR-games, and the disappearing Tiki Tribe.

The consistent establishment of DK's world among other actually cared elements to craft the worlds and the gameplay elements is what made games like DKC2 and 3 elevate to very memorable experiences and caring about the Kongs -and even their antagonists on so much more level. I mean, what was a mere saving point in DKC1 with rather forgettable monkey with bazonkas, was changed for a lovable and sweetly grandmother to the Kong's, along with being a tender side to Cranky's grumpy and even lonesome-looking background. Going from that creativity from opportunities of fleshing the world from mere gameplay elements to something like Doctor Chops is... well, replacing a core part of DK's world with a middle-point flag like in Mario-games, honestly.

Heck, it's been the very core reason for such long-running, fanatic appeal of the main villain, K.Rool, who was developed more and more to be craftier and competent, and thus all the more "intimidating" despite his goofy tendencies, compared to Bowser is today for example (as much as he can pull realistic dragons from his arse now.)

Then there was Klubba's implied background, the vast and imaginative worlds beyond DK Island, Crocodile Isle, Northern Kremisphere, the Krem Wars, Banana Birds, among other things... I just remember them better than what DKCR and TF, for all good games they are, had. They latter still feels just more in-line with what Mario-games' standard Japanese Cartoony feel would have, keeping most of the presentation of the world as safe and true like Mario-games have done (until Odyssey... kinda) - versus the subtle semi-realism of 3D characters on Western Toon tropes that DKC-games were built on and explored more daring ways to present DK's world, the characters in it, and more - similar to how Crash Bandicoot-series were such a hit too back in the day due Naughty Dog's immense care to the way they wanted to flesh the gameplay elements towards a cohesive theme and a world.

I always found the current state and characterization of DK-series the most biggest case of "Nintendoism" today, basically being charming and marketable, yet relatively stock and cliche after you get to know the characters and play the games mainly for that sweet gameplay. Basically it's like trying to turn DK-series to just another Mario-clone at very heart, which is kinda bad move since most people might just flock to Mario-games due them being easier, incase DKCRs are too hard - and even then, having so many similar series to Mario is mainly going to put people skilled in that area invest more on the sacred cow itself.

It kinda saddens me more since remembering so well how Rare's genius and craft seemed to have no bounds, being able to take formulas from the games here and there that Nintendo made, and make even better versions of them. I still stand on opinion that Banjo-Kazooie still trumps Super Mario 64 by a mile to this day, by understanding exactly what made that game work, and then completely building and improving to every aspect of it. IDK what went wrong with DK64 in that regard, but I wish we had like, Banjo-Kazooie to say, Ocarina of Time today. I need to see true innovation and breakthroughs on 10/10-games today...

Rare's buyout truly feels such a tragedy, and I feel that with Retro Studio's eventual diminishing, it's going to hurt even more.

Sorry ~ Valkyrie ~ ~ Valkyrie ~ , but I STRONGLY disagree with most of this.

It's rather amazing how Miyamoto allowed DK-series be given as much creative freedom as we'd get to see when Country-games were fully realized, especially when today, the DK-series has arguably more "cartoony" feel to it, right down to characterization and portrayal of it's world. I mean, just compared Donkey Kong from the 90s to current DK, which now feels more a Scooby Doo-esque buffoon- like Miyamoto wanted all along, but not enough to make that charismatic to star in his own games anymore beyond his well-known name... like a certain rival of Mario has become due his "grossness". Same goes for the today's powerup Kongs of DK, that all were shown, or implied to be competent back in the good ol' days.).
For a start, the SNES and DK64 era DK sounded cooler than the Scooby Kong we have now, but in his own series he was known to be kidnapped more than playable, and when he was playable once in his breakout trilogy, he was easily overshadowed by the new Kong on the block: Diddy. Diddy is the one most players flocked to, because even though he was weaker than Donkey his speed made him more fun to play as. I'm certainly not a fan of the CG cartoon, as I found everyone in it to be cringeworthy even as a kid. By the time 64 came around, Miyamoto was enforcing his "dumb ape" vision, and even without it DK didn't seem cool. I mean seriously, he's a big musclebound gorilla who slaps as a standard attack, and playing Patty-Cake with K. Rool in a blooper. DK64 was far more cartoony than the original trilogy, no doubt thanks to being repurposed from Banjo-Kazooie. However, it didn't start there. When DKC3 started referencing Terminator (KAOS), Scooby Doo ("I would've gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling Kongs!") Frankenstein (K.Roolenstein), and Wizard of Oz (K. Rool controlling KAOS behind a curtain) you know they've scraped the bottom of the barrel, as they're getting dangerously close to a Hanna-Barbara cartoon. It was far too cliche, even back then.

Even with modern DK's unintelligible blubbering I still find him to be far more competent, agile and powerful than the one Rare introduced. He has the friendliness of a Nintendo character, and the personality I expect of a gorilla: belligerent (Jungle Beat), stubborn (Returns and Tropical Freeze), aggressive (Jungle Beat, Returns, Tropical Freeze and Punch-Out Wii), hyperactive (all the above), yet still laid back and endearingly goofy (again all of the above).

As I mentioned above, DK's series currently, since Return, has had rather uninspired world at best that's laid on "whatever goes in according to gameplay, takes precedence", to keep it as easy mold to whatever gameplay ideas it can take as Mario-series could, starting with Jungle Beat to Returns and Tropical Freeze. Yet here we are with DK-series not even getting a dedicated studio anymore since it seems too much work for Nintendo to invest on, and Mario-series would do better what DK-series has been tried to be designated as under Retro Studios's hands (which I wonder how much direction from Miyamoto or other Nintendo's higherups they had to take from.)

To remember just how original DKC-series and it's own lore was , with it's worldbuilding feeling more consistent and actually caring about the elements it puts in DK's world, instead of just throwing in various cartoony villains we'd never see again in the next installment, due how loose the settings and connection between the games feel. It's a sad thing because Snowmads feel like they'd have so much potential, but I know they won't ever make a return in hypothetical DKCR3-game. Then there's the thing about inhabiting DK's world with such uninspired and stocky animal characters at times, like the generic monkeys in Jungle Beat, or Doctor Chops in both DKCR-games, and the disappearing Tiki Tribe.
I also fiercely disagree with your statement about the level design. Looking back on Jungle Beat and Retro's games, the only one that somewhat embodies that is Jungle Beat, which definitely has props in there for whatever fits the gameplay and nothing else. That is the most Nintendo-styled DK platformer of them all, and while I'm glad it failed, it was actually a very fun game. However, there is nothing uninspired by Retro's DKCs. They made sure everything in the level was there for a reason, even going so much as saying so in interviews. They worked the gameplay in with the setting and environment seamlessly in Returns then took it even further in the sequel. The stages, as they say each "tells a story"; Returns brought continuity between levels by having elements from the previous "world" (which I'll be calling Sections or Islands from now on) present in the first level of the new one. That was a bona-fide first for the series and showed a realistic sense of progression; they layered the stages with background events and elements that can only be found in one stage each, then sprinkled Easter Eggs on top for more density. There's far more depth to the levels than the obstacle course with no rhyme or reason that the NSMB games have.

I could infer more about the islands of Tropical Freeze just from looking at the levels' scenery than I could from Jungle Beat AND the original DKCs, and that's not just because of hardware limitations. Retro made sure to pack each stage with detail to make it feel like DK's was a living, breathing world; you had the back, fore and midground interacting often, villains doing more than waiting on you to kill them, and level/narrative continuity. You absolutely cannot tell me that Juicy Jungle didn't show us a gradual process of how they made their products from level to level. You can't dispute that Donkey Kong Island being frozen over didn't imply an arctic apocalypse and the aftermath of the Snowmads' actions. The ruined state of the final island hits harder for players who visited those Sections in Returns. And that's just those 2 islands; even Returns had an implied level narrative at the very least. To this day, the Tikis stealing bananas makes far more sense than K. Rool doing it, because we actually got an in-game reason. It took nearly a decade for Rare to explain it, and they did so on a fanmail section of their website.

This is in comparison to the original trilogy, which never allowed us to interact with more than one layer of any level, which used to be very linear until DKC3 came out, which had identical backgrounds for level types and which--in DKC1's case especially--had the most uninspired bosses except K. Rool. That game gave us: a giant Beaver and his recolor, a giant vulture and his recolor, a giant bee that changes colors, and a giant level hazard that spat out generic enemies they couldn't make bosses out of. For all the garbage that the Tikis are, they have more going for them than 99% of DKC1's bosses, and DKC3's Belcha. Their musical hypnosis is actually more compelling than: this Beaver works for K. Rool, or this Oil Drum is alive and helping K. Rool. Then we have the Snowmads, whose leaders all have almost as much personality as K. Rool with the exception of Fredrik (whose a lame ripoff); that in and of itself speaks volumes, as the bosses in Rare's games were 1-Dimensional.

The consistent establishment of DK's world among other actually cared elements to craft the worlds and the gameplay elements is what made games like DKC2 and 3 elevate to very memorable experiences and caring about the Kongs -and even their antagonists on so much more level. I mean, what was a mere saving point in DKC1 with rather forgettable monkey with bazonkas, was changed for a lovable and sweetly grandmother to the Kong's, along with being a tender side to Cranky's grumpy and even lonesome-looking background. Going from that creativity from opportunities of fleshing the world from mere gameplay elements to something like Doctor Chops is... well, replacing a core part of DK's world with a middle-point flag like in Mario-games, honestly.

Heck, it's been the very core reason for such long-running, fanatic appeal of the main villain, K.Rool, who was developed more and more to be craftier and competent, and thus all the more "intimidating" despite his goofy tendencies, compared to Bowser is today for example (as much as he can pull realistic dragons from his arse now.)
I only somewhat disagree here. Yea there's an established lore in the original DKCs starting with DKC2 and moving forward, but there's clearly an established lore in Retro's, and not just with the Banana Temples. The difference is that Rare's DKCs share the lore through text and dialogue, but Retro implies it through visuals. Again, look at the level narratives of Returns and Tropical Freeze's levels. The Forest Section of Returns is infested with huge dormant Tikis; the Factory's been repurposed from the Kremlings and turned into their breeding ground; the Volcano is their birthplace and their throne. Lost Mangroves is full of an unusually large amount of scrap metal and busted vehicles that the Snowmads use for their army--how those vehicles and contraptions ended up there is a mystery for anyone's interpretation; Bright Savanna shows us what a deadly tornado does to the island as it creates a wildfire that threatens the whole place, and is ruled by a native that's clearly been brought into the Snowmad's alliance; Sea Breeze Cove shows us an ancient Atlantis-like civilization that's long abandoned the area; how and why is anyone's guess. You already know the deal with Juicy Jungle and DK Isle, Kremcroc Industries got hijacked again and is now left to rot in the ice. Unlike the SNES games, the lore here is implied, letting us connect whatever dots we wish while keeping gameplay at the forefront.

Then there was Klubba's implied background, the vast and imaginative worlds beyond DK Island, Crocodile Isle, Northern Kremisphere, the Krem Wars, Banana Birds, among other things... I just remember them better than what DKCR and TF, for all good games they are, had. They latter still feels just more in-line with what Mario-games' standard Japanese Cartoony feel would have, keeping most of the presentation of the world as safe and true like Mario-games have done (until Odyssey... kinda) - versus the subtle semi-realism of 3D characters on Western Toon tropes that DKC-games were built on and explored more daring ways to present DK's world, the characters in it, and more - similar to how Crash Bandicoot-series were such a hit too back in the day due Naughty Dog's immense care to the way they wanted to flesh the gameplay elements towards a cohesive theme and a world.
DK's various enemies: The Kremlings, Ghastly King's Thralls, The Tikis, Wizpig and The Snowmads actually bolster the series' lore, because unlike Mario's, DK's is varied enough to show that there's more to his world than one enemy faction. There's more to fight than anthropomorphic Krocs, more islands than DK's and Crocodile Isle, at least 7 in fact. We have an expansive look at what's going on beyond DK's home; we know that Autumn Heights is nearby, and thanks to Odyssey, we know that New Donk City is a thing. Fighting K. Rool constantly would give the series a Saturday Morning Cartoon feel, which DKC3 and '64 were definitely shifting towards. And honestly, Retro's DKCs are far more daring. Yes, DKC2 and 3 were getting innovative, but Retro's games are far more layered, the gameplay a bit more creative (2.5D Banjo-Kazooie with unique elements for each level is a step up from the SNES games by a good margin), the levels have vastly more action (Haunted Hall is one of the few levels in the entire SNES trilogy that can compete with the dozens of action-packed levels from either Returns or Tropical Freeze), far more interesting Bosses (with only some exceptions), and honestly more personality from each playable Kong, based entirely on their animations. The 2D Mario games should be taking notes from Retro's DKCs, as those are cookie-cutter and uninspired--yet still enjoyable--games. There's a certain level of care and attention to detail Retro has showed the series and I want them to continue to do so. There's things that they've done much better than Rare would've.

On a side note, as much as I loved Crash, Warped is where they went generic. Gameplay-wise it's the best of Naughty Dog's trilogy, but the setting is so Saturday Morning Cartoony that they sorta lost the identity that Crash 2 was showing. Instead of learning more about Crash's world we get an abridged, surface-level version of real world history, but with a twist being Cortex corrupting it. Still a really good game though, but I think Naughty Dog was running out of ideas for where to take the setting.
 

ZeroJanitor

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the thing about DK's personality is that, in a lot of the Mario games he appears in, he's in this sort of "lovable oaf giant" personality, somewhere between scooby-doo and the hulk. which works fine in mario but its really weird to reconcile that in his own games, particularly when you put him up against other characters like diddy and cranky.

i almost don't even consider Mario Donkey Kong and DKC Donkey Kong to be the same character
 
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the thing about DK's personality is that, in a lot of the Mario games he appears in, he's in this sort of "lovable oaf giant" personality, somewhere between scooby-doo and the hulk. which works fine in mario but its really weird to reconcile that in his own games, particularly when you put him up against other characters like diddy and cranky.

i almost don't even consider Mario Donkey Kong and DKC Donkey Kong to be the same character
Donkey Kong 64's version of DK will always be the definitive version. He's cool, laidback ,but still has personality and charm of cartoonyness on the same level of Banjo-Kazooie that doesn't go overboard.

Grant Kirkhope's voice was made for DK and a perfect fit, I love his "OK !" "Cool" and my favorite when he pulls out his Coconut Gun and says "Yeah !" I never hated his current voice (Scooby Kong) as there is some clips that sound pretty good (Mainly his more aggressive ones) ,But he's been using his current voice for so long that I've gotten use to it and has grown on me overtime, But I still think it's inferior to his DK 64 voice.

In my opinion Donkey Kong 64 made DK seem more like a character who happens to be a gorilla, While current DK feels more animalistic with clumsy and goofy characteristics.

Either way I will always love Donkey Kong no matter what.

Donkey Kong 64 Voice (Grant Kirkhope)
https://youtu.be/_CQoWJo3Wjc

Donkey Kong Current Voice (Takashi Nagasako)
https://youtu.be/EFfFzpsh3T0
 
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Justin Little

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Other than K. Rool hating bananas and wanting to starve the Kongs, the bananas are also known as the Golden Bananas which leads to the credence that the bananas might actually be made out of gold, at least the pealings are. And since they are pirates I always thought the Kremlings' goal was self-explanatory: Conquer islands and steal whatever wealth they could find on the island.

What were the Tikis' goal? Were they once banana trees turned into Tikis, and them stealing (back) the bananas were their way to help ameliorate the pain of what they once were and what they lost? Because that's ****ed up Retro! Maybe that is what Kremkroc Industries, Inc. was for. K. Rool was building some kind of soulless army to win the war against the Kongs once and for all, but it was too late. DK and Diddy kicked him and the Kremling crew out of the island for good, and whatever was left of their initial ambitions grew a mind of their own with a sense purpose: Revenge! There were some obvious spiritual mumbo jumbo they were fooling around with that even the Kongs probably did not understand.
 
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