The Knightmare Returns! Meta Knight Discussion Thread

[Demon-oni]

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OH LAWD HE COMIN

Welp I don't know about the rest of MK, but for sure that's getting nerfed in some way. Having both a horizontal and vertical kill route from early percent is silly. As much as I like MK, they aren't letting him have multiple low percent kill confirms along with all his other traits. Usually I'm in favor of waiting six-seven months after the launch of the game to think about potential balance adjustments, and it may still be the right decision here, but I don't want MK to become a top tier merely because every combo route devolves into a cheese kill regardless of ender.

 

[MERPIS]

Welp I don't know about the rest of MK, but for sure that's getting nerfed in some way. Having both a horizontal and vertical kill route from early percent is silly. As much as I like MK, they aren't letting him have multiple low percent kill confirms along with all his other traits. Usually I'm in favor of waiting six-seven months after the launch of the game to think about potential balance adjustments, and it may still be the right decision here, but I don't want MK to become a top tier merely because every combo route devolves into a cheese kill regardless of ender.

i hope you realize that silly bull crap is the name of the game in smash ultimate, if MK gets nerfed, then so will puff, peach and daisy since they all have ridiculous stupidity to them

 

[HyperL]

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OH LAWD HE COMIN

GODDAMN that's some Bayonetta level bull****.

I hope that's easily DI'able otherwise we won't have it for long.

 

[MERPIS]

GODDAMN that's some Bayonetta level bull****.

I hope that's easily DI'able otherwise we won't have it for long.

Look at up airs angle, that wont be DI able

 

[HyperL]

Ok now tell me this ain't broken.

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This is literally 0 to death in less than 10 seconds, is too powerful.

IT ONLY USES OUR NORMAL AERIALS TOO. Prepare to get some aerial nerfs bois.

 

[Dirk Derick]

While that certainly looks impressive, I think there are a couple of things you're going to want to keep in mind about that clip specifically; For one, it's Ridley who's subject to the combo who is not only one of the larger characters in the game, making him more susceptible to this sort of thing but also Ridley has a pretty bad recovering and (I'm not 100% sure about this one) pretty bad frame data. It might just be that Meta Knight will be able to really abuse these characters that are slow with bad recoveries

 

[Chibi-Chan]

While that certainly looks impressive, I think there are a couple of things you're going to want to keep in mind about that clip specifically; For one, it's Ridley who's subject to the combo who is not only one of the larger characters in the game, making him more susceptible to this sort of thing but also Ridley has a pretty bad recovering and (I'm not 100% sure about this one) pretty bad frame data. It might just be that Meta Knight will be able to really abuse these characters that are slow with bad recoveries

Yeah, don't be calling for nerf til we see things in true competitive environment. Metaknight was not buffed much from 4 from what I can see. Tornado is the main difference in his moveset.

But don't let that kill your hype, the new engine benefits MK by making gimping easier to compliment his offstage game as well as making air dodges suck so you can prevent anyone from ever landing. Expect a lot of the old dash attack -> upair action you know and love. Now with some brawl-style Dairs to gimp! I'm not sure about tornado. It does KO when used offstage, but it also kills you if you go deep with it.

 

[MERPIS]

actual matches this time. nado knockback is wild pic.twitter.com/0uiN8ivkpS

— Glacey (@_glacey) November 30, 2018

last clip from today! this obviously isnt a combo but it shows nado can be used far offstage. could potentially force an airdodge in some situations? pic.twitter.com/F05xO7svc2

— Glacey (@_glacey) November 29, 2018

mk's aerial fair 1 and 2 still send nowhere like in smash 4! ultimate's sucking autolink property causes opponents to consistenly land in front of mk after it now. with the range buffs this might end up being useful pic.twitter.com/umwpxwnPIW

— Glacey (@_glacey) November 29, 2018

That last one is exciting me the most
The ride never ends

 

[Rehnquist]

Ok now tell me this ain't broken.

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This is literally 0 to death in less than 10 seconds, is too powerful.

IT ONLY USES OUR NORMAL AERIALS TOO. Prepare to get some aerial nerfs bois.

... So you never played/watched meta knight before?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJZXbjxUfnQ&t=1m

That is smash 4, in fact I should probably post the whole link so people can see how he worked in 4,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJZXbjxUfnQ

The only kill that they showed in your clip is a kill combo meta knight already has in smash 4. People aren't as good at theory crafting or catching what's 'broken' as they like to think. You can't truly substitute months of expereince of play and counter play with theorycrafting, especially when you showcase a combo that currently exists in smash 4 that no one complains about.

 

[MERPIS]

... So you never played/watched meta knight before?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJZXbjxUfnQ&t=1m

That is smash 4, in fact I should probably post the whole link so people can see how he worked in 4,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJZXbjxUfnQ

The only kill that they showed in your clip is a kill combo meta knight already has in smash 4. People aren't as good at theory crafting or catching what's 'broken' as they like to think. You can't truly substitute months of expereince of play and counter play with theorycrafting, especially when you showcase a combo that currently exists in smash 4 that no one complains about.

that kill combo is ass compared to his new mach tornado ladder and the resurrected shuttle loop ladder. The movement options is the scary part seeing as how good MK is at installing fear into the opponent

 

[Rehnquist]

that kill combo is *** compared to his new mach tornado ladder and the resurrected shuttle loop ladder. The movement options is the scary part seeing as how good MK is at installing fear into the opponent

You are applying my comment as if I was referencing nado, I wasn't talking about nado or any of his special finishers. I was talking about the post stating that mks normal aerials as being busted, the same combo you consider ass, is what others are calling busted....

Either I quoted the wrong guy, or you didn't watch or read who I quoted.

 

[MERPIS]

You are applying my comment as if I was referencing nado, I wasn't talking about nado or any of his special finishers. I was talking about the post stating that mks normal aerials as being busted, the same combo you consider ***, is what others are calling busted....

Either I quoted the wrong guy, or you didn't watch or read who I quoted.

Frankly I don't really care, I don't care enough about it to watch the video since I already know what his combos are and that bridge can be ridden of by DI dair. MK's normal aerials are indeed busted but not because of this combo

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Yes, I also discovered Fair1 and Fair 2 were amazing, but not as good as BAIR 1 and 2. Learn to time the SHFF to get these!

 

[MERPIS]

Yes, I also discovered Fair1 and Fair 2 were amazing, but not as good as BAIR 1 and 2. Learn to time the SHFF to get these!

or just use fair

 

[Chibi-Chan]

or just use fair

Hitting the full Fair sucks, though!

 

[MERPIS]

Hitting the full Fair sucks, though!

but, forward air, its more friendly for neutral, and its forward air.

 

[kirbstr]

https://twitter.com/_glacey/status/1068387005782994944

MK's neutral is going to be crazy between his fast movement, great aerials, fear factor, and stuff like this.

Also his punish is insane as people have already demonstrated and his disadvantage is at least top 10 with his 6 jumps and recovery options.

Also nado looks broken off stage.

I just hope they don't nerf him too much once the first patch comes out.

 

[MERPIS]

https://twitter.com/_glacey/status/1068387005782994944

MK's neutral is going to be crazy between his fast movement, great aerials, fear factor, and stuff like this.

Also his punish is insane as people have already demonstrated and his disadvantage is at least top 10 with his 6 jumps and recovery options.

Also nado looks broken off stage.

I just hope they don't nerf him too much once the first patch comes out.

Even if they were to nuke him they'd most likely just get rid of nado's knockback by a bit, murder's a bit of his fear factor but still makes him amazing.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Even if they were to nuke him they'd most likely just get rid of nado's knockback by a bit, murder's a bit of his fear factor but still makes him amazing.

The knockback is not that high, but they're using it pretty close to the blast zone with a great hitbox, so it's "strong enough"! It's not like it's some smash attack or even some of the bigger Bairs and such. Just like UpB, you set it up the best scenario for it.

 

[MERPIS]

The knockback is not that high, but they're using it pretty close to the blast zone with a great hitbox, so it's "strong enough"! It's not like it's some smash attack or even some of the bigger Bairs and such. Just like UpB, you set it up the best scenario for it.

tbh I actually doubt they'd nerf it. From what I've seen they've definitely paid attention to the competitive scene this time around and if they're giving a quarter or half the cast stupidly good options then this must have been intentional

Hooray dtilt is even better and this makes his neutral even greater

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[Dirk Derick]

Some neat gameplay, you can see the Drillrush knockback buff here, but I don't think it's a great option since it still has that start up and if he had whiffed it I don't think he could have recovered. Additionally it shows off the fact that Shuttleloop is still a kill move at higher percentages

 

[MERPIS]

Some neat gameplay, you can see the Drillrush knockback buff here, but I don't think it's a great option since it still has that start up and if he had whiffed it I don't think he could have recovered. Additionally it shows off the fact that Shuttleloop is still a kill move at higher percentages

Was Dash attack to up b still a true combo at that last stock?

 

[Dirk Derick]

Hard to tell from a spectators perspective, my gut reaction is no but you should keep in mind that Shuttleloop goes further in this game then in Smash 4 so there might be a chance that it is but that seems highly unlikely to me.

 

[MERPIS]

almost positive it is, it has like no lag. most landing lag in this game is just super low across the board

— Glacey (@_glacey) December 1, 2018

I asked about how safe fair was, glacey said that fair is almost unpunishable.
Also its spammable in neutral. Judging by the low launch angle, at low to mid percents, it'll probably be able to lead into dash attack, nair, grab, dash up ftilt, bair locks, and fair locks too. Which is actually amazing especially that last one.
We really ARE winged marth

 

[JesseMcCloud]

As someone super-hyped to play MK in Ultimate, I gotta say this knee-jerk reaction is pretty disappointing. People calling to nerf/ban MK when the game isn't even out yet is a new low. And the hypocrisy of Capt. Zack being one of MK's loudest detractors is more contemptible than anything.

Like Dirk said, most of these combos are being used on big characters with large boxes, slow air speed, and bad recoveries. CALM DOWN PEOPLE.

 

[MERPIS]

As someone super-hyped to play MK in Ultimate, I gotta say this knee-jerk reaction is pretty disappointing. People calling to nerf/ban MK when the game isn't even out yet is a new low. And the hypocrisy of Capt. Zack being one of MK's loudest detractors is more contemptible than anything.

Like Dirk said, most of these combos are being used on big characters with large boxes, slow air speed, and bad recoveries. CALM DOWN PEOPLE.

zack is a huge fricking hypocrite, I doubt MK would be banned despite the combos, almost a third or half the cast has broken stupidity. Even if they nerfed MK's stupidity they'd have to make him down to the level of the others, which his kit is already almost at that level anyways.

 

[Dirk Derick]

Some more Meta Knight footage from the same channel in case you guys are interested

The most interesting thing here to me, is how shuttleloop failed to kill Peach but killed Mac at a lower percent, my guess would be the Mac had some crappy DI but shuttle is looking like an unreliable kill move. My second guess would be that it was staler on Peach but Fresh against mac

 

[MERPIS]

Some more Meta Knight footage from the same channel in case you guys are interested

The most interesting thing here to me, is how shuttleloop failed to kill Peach but killed Mac at a lower percent, my guess would be the Mac had some crappy DI but shuttle is looking like an unreliable kill move. My second guess would be that it was staler on Peach but Fresh against mac

It seems MK isn't as broken as we lead him on to be..

 

[Chibi-Chan]

It seems MK isn't as broken as we lead him on to be..

What a surprise. I would be willing to be $20 that his hype is ridiculously overblown.

Hearing people say he's supposed to be Brawl MK with the ladder... Come on people.

EDIT: Before you come after me. I'll believe this character will be fine. He's a bit better than in smash 4 where he was an acceptable character. The engine favors his offstage game and his aerials don't suck on shield. It's just that I doubt he'll be in the top10 because there's characters with just better speed, power and frame data out there that aren't just some dash attack -> upair gimmick.

 

[Dirk Derick]

What a surprise. I would be willing to be $20 that his hype is ridiculously overblown.

Hearing people say he's supposed to be Brawl MK with the ladder... Come on people.

While I agree that it is much too early to be calling MK's power in this game, it is worth noting that he still has the potential to be very good. Several personalities like Abadango and Shokio have called him the "best character in the game" (scare quotes added by me) and I would be surprised if MK didn't turn out at least high tier but as always, even though we have much more information then what is normal for a pregame launch it's still the equivalent of the game only having been out for a week and the majority of players having had their copies delayed so turns up to be a highly volatile and speculative environment

 

[MERPIS]

What a surprise. I would be willing to be $20 that his hype is ridiculously overblown.

Hearing people say he's supposed to be Brawl MK with the ladder... Come on people.

EDIT: Before you come after me. I'll believe this character will be fine. He's a bit better than in smash 4 where he was an acceptable character. The engine favors his offstage game and his aerials don't suck on shield. It's just that I doubt he'll be in the top10 because there's characters with just better speed, power and frame data out there that aren't just some dash attack -> upair gimmick.

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BEAST

 

[Chibi-Chan]

While I agree that it is much too early to be calling MK's power in this game, it is worth noting that he still has the potential to be very good. Several personalities like Abadango and Shokio have called him the "best character in the game" (scare quotes added by me) and I would be surprised if MK didn't turn out at least high tier but as always, even though we have much more information then what is normal for a pregame launch it's still the equivalent of the game only having been out for a week and the majority of players having had their copies delayed so turns up to be a highly volatile and speculative environment

I actually kinda believe the Pikachu hype after having played. Young link one somewhat as well. I expect to see MK being popular in early tournaments. In fact, am more excited about watching streams next weekend than actually playing because the month 1 meta is gonna be insane. The dust will settle soon enough on the preliminary tiers and maybe we'll all be surprised!

My guess is MK will be top 20, mostly because he has an offstage game, is hard to gimp, is a fast-faller and is hard to land on-stage against. His strength imo is in solid fundamentals rather than sillyness.

EDIT: depending on how those upair chains turn out in the end, I think he can be an "honest" character.

 

[Dirk Derick]

I certainly agree with your sentiment but I think that Meta Knight will always be capable of some sort of silly chicanery. I expect that by this time next year Meta Knight will have had some sort of exploit patched out of the game, I just don't think that any of these early videos have actually found that exploit.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Does he go into fall-special after using Down-B's attack?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Does he go into fall-special after using Down-B's attack?

Yep. Even if you don't perform the slash.

 

[Gemba Board]

Does he go into fall-special after using Down-B's attack?

Yep. Even if you don't perform the slash.

Yeah, however, unlike before, you could grab the ledge afterward.

 

[Sol0ke]

It seems MK can grab the ledge sooner after his specials (except drill rush I think) now, which is highly appreciated. It's a nice QoL buff.

 

[Dirk Derick]

It seems MK can grab the ledge sooner after his specials (except drill rush I think) now, which is highly appreciated. It's a nice QoL buff.

Do you know if MK will grab the ledge if you get nudged off the edge after using Dimensional Cape on shield?

 

[Sol0ke]

Not sure, that hasn’t been really tested yet.

 

[Davybaby2.0]

Aye I’m looking to try and make MK my main once I save up enough to get the game since he looks really fun in ultimate, and I’ve always wanted to learn how he played in 4 but never really invested the time into him since he got hit with the nerf hammer every time I attempted so I just invested more time into Fox instead. But I digress. My question goes out those of you who have the game and have messed around with the character a little. I’m confused on how his netrual is supposed to be played I can’t figure it out. And how to get kills on stage without relying heavily on tornado (because let’s be honest that move is busted, and is going to get hit with the nerf hammer sooner or later). Also possible ways to two frame somebody on the ledge would be nice (even tho idk if that’s even possible in this game or not).