The Jiggz Match-Up Thread

[Mr. game and watch]

All the major write ups from the wario export if you want em.

[COLLAPSE="Click me good and hard "]My brother plays with wario, and he owns me. Mainly cause hes just good at the game and has been since melee. Some moves ive found good against wario are:

short hop dair to get him off his bike.
Pound his chomp it keeps you safe from him and you still get in the hit. i usualy follow that with a Uair.
(for most matchups) otherwise with wario, he always chomps a rollout so aim for his back.
Bouncing tires is good for takin out roll-out.
Basicly rollout is risky in this MU, I wouldn't suggest it unless he's falling from his recovery maybe.

If your wario's campy, stay below him.
His uair is a good kill move.
Maybe a rising bair to WoP him, if you're off the side aerial fighting.
I'm no good at rest, not sure the most effective way to kill him with it.
If anyone knows the priority of our aerials vs his, tell me.
If not I'll go play with it against him.

Pound beating Bite is pretty important to know, as it's the only thing we have that beats it. Other than that, this is kind of a fun matchup, but kinda sad, because Wario doesn't really have anything that makes him **** us - he just outclasses us in pretty much everything. The most notable trait is vertical mobility - his ability to travel vertically is what lets him run around us.

Wario is easy to hit when he does his WAH WAH WYAHHH attak! Make use of dis!

Man, wario is so annoying to fight against. Mainly because you can't be aggro at all, and even worse it's hard to camp. It's basically a ditto match, except your opponent has better aerial mobility, he's harder to kill, and kills alot easier. I'm pretty sure The Waft kills at like, 40-60. Someone can double check that for me though. At the right moment, max knockback that moves obnoxious, and will wreck shield.

Wario's air dodge is the only useful air dodge in the game, because it's so long. Wario can out air-camp jigglypuff without a doubt. The only thing i really see as an option is using retreating aerials from the side. Nothing from the top or you'll get the clap. The bike pretty much can be avoided. Just short hop F/B/nair. Just don't be stupid and try to rollout. -.- The only time i see Rollout being useful is for punishing Wario when he grabs his bike and trys to throw it. That bike's damn heavy.

Pound is useful because it gives you a way to approach when wario is extending hurtboxes. Main kill moves that i can see are Fair, DACUS if you're lucky and catch Wario doing a stupid misplaced airdodge, Utilt if wario's stupid, and Dash attack. Obviously rest.... but lets leave that alone.

Bite is hard to get past, but i'm glad that pound beats it. Rollout should NEVER hit due to bite, or any other OOS options. Don't use smashes unless it's a dacus. Wario's Dair will mess you up. Wario's options beat all our options. We can't approach from the top, bottom, and his Fair outspaces ours.

Lol what kind of matchup is that.
Fighting Wario as Jiggs is like Mink said fighting an upgraded version of yourself.
Wario has kill moves (with super armor and/or disjointed range), top class damage racking ability, excellent recovery both vertically AND horizontally, best aerial acceleration in the game and some moves that say "**** you" to your spacing (namely Dair, Uair, Nair and neutral B). Also he can set up some items for nasty combos.

If I had to give some tips :
-fight him horizontally, where his range lacks the most,
-keep an eye on the timer, the fart can kill from 1min30 of charge,
-if he lets his bike somewhere on the stage DON'T EVER LET HIM GET IT BACK. Seriously the bike has no timer so it can stay on the stage forever, hence forever nerfing his recovery (at least until his next death).
-if he ever goes near his bike go grab him,
-know how to use tires against him, also know that if a tire hits a shield or clanks with a hitbox it'll disappear.

That's it, have fun for this horrible matchup where you can't even use your OOS goodness.

I'll be totally honest, this matchup is damn near hopeless for jiggs.

I main Wario and secondary Jiggs. Jiggs biggest strength is horizontal spacing in the air, unfortunately Wario can space in the air in all directions, Jiggs' biggest strength becomes almost useless against Wario. he kills waaay faster and gets killed waaay slower. Jiggs can gimp Wario much better than Wario can gimp jiggs though, so I guess thats one area in which Jiggs shines. If any smart jiggs can land a dsmash on Wario, that should end the stock for Wario. Follow him offstage and hit him right as soon as he pulls out the bike. Jiggs has the second best offstage presence in the game IMO (after MK obviously). just nair and fair your way to victory when Wario is offstage.

Good lord please dont go for rests in this matchup. you will eat a full waft or a charged fsmash.
At max power, a half waft will kill jiggs from the centre of FD at around 40% maybe 50% with DI.

Jiggs can't even exploit Wario's biggest disadvantage AT ALL. at most, you can grab release on the edge of the stage into fair, which isnt really worth it. you can grab release into rest, but you will certainly fall off the side and die if you do.

as someone mentioned earlier, if a bike-happy Wario leaves his bike on the stage, you should get SUPER aggressive. keep him from destroying it and dont destroy it yourself. Wario's recovery is horrible without the bike. makes him SO much easier to gimp.

The bite isnt invincible. While it will ALWAYS beat a rollout, you can stall until the active frames of the bite run out. there is enough lag at the end of a bite(when Wario closes his mouth) for Jiggs to travel about the distance of FD and hit him before he can get shield up. the rollout is really just about mindgames in this MU. just dont try to use rollout to punish his landings or h'll just land with a bite(or b-reversed bite).

I'd say this MU is 65:35 and thats being generous to Jiggs. it's probably Wario's 3rd easiest MU after Ganon and maybe Bowser and those two characters even have infinites on Wario.

you wanna play defensive in this MU bcos Wario can beat all of your offensive options. hit fairs, bairs and pounds on the top of Wario to try and poke through bite(although pound always beats it) and to avoid that insanely fast shieldgrab.

Wario punishes all of jiggs' kill moves so easily and is one of the only chars that can actually get in and punish a whiffed f-air due to the speed at which he can change directions in the air and how amazing his airdodge is.

Wario can chase down jiggs so easily, lol. you should be saying how can jiggs chase down Wario. Jiggs has a higher max air speed. but takes ages to get to that speed. Wario has insane aerial accelration so he catches up really fast.

dont be fooled, Wario's aerials are all VERY good. you never ever wanna be above him because you get uair'd. if you want to dair, you should be doing it offstage or landing it diagonally.

A WARIO RECOVERING LOW SHOULD NOT GO SCOT FREE. always land the nair or dair(I prefer nair)

while rollout would land if Wario recovers high WITH upB(never ever gonna happen) I was talking about if a Wario opens his mouth for the bite BEFORE you start the rollout. then you can punish before he can throw out another attack or another bite or before he can shield if u time it well enough. a horrible move made even worse in this matchup though.

someone mentioned that a grab off the edge with Wario at 110% = free kill? I'd like to know exactly what you're gonna get that kill with lmao. usmash is the only thing that MIGHT land, and it doesnt kill the fatman until at least 130%. a sweetspotted fair would only kill if it was totally fresh, and even then I think Wario would have to be at like 120%.

uair is the move you wanna avoid the most in this matchup. try to never be in its range.

Redone: any new tricks? Post em, and I will actually include it here, unlike last time.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Why was this posted?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Cause if noob wanted it, he could just quote me here.
I was just wasting time.
It's off topic I know, which is why I collapsed it.
Also it's long as my own... Foot.

 

[Noobicidal]

Why would I want a Wario write-up when we're barely even talking about Wolf?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I can't tell if he's trolling or just herp derpin'

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Both.
As I said I'm off topic, but I was bored earlier and was like "eh I'll give these to noob to pack into the wario part real quick."

 

[Jigglymaster]

Apparently rollout loses to Wolf's Upsmash. I was off the stage and I decided to do rollout, he startes charging his upsmash and I try to punish it and it certaintly looked like I could, but instead his fully charged upsmash hits me and kills me off the top.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Thats pretty dumb. I've been using Breversal roll alot lately.

I also don't know if this has been documented or not, but if i recall (i was day dreaming today). An aerial rollout sends the opponent straight up, while a grounded one sends them sideways.

Are there any priority differences?

 

[teluoborg]

Priority is determined by the damage dealt so no.

the fact is, the first hit of Wolf's Usmash has disjointed hitboxes on the sides (kinda like Marth's Usmash), and since rollout loses to anything disjointed...

 

[-LzR-]

Rollout doesn't really have any priority in it. It just moves around boom like that fast so ppl fail to punish it. Rollout ftw.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Rollout loses to tons of attacks but it ***** sheilds and counters.

 

[hichez50]

How does rollout **** shields? Most people punish rollout out of shield. I find that roll out works best if you constantly change your charge times. Roll out still deal lots of knock back at relatively low charge times.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

The knockbacks ********.

as long as the ball is shining it does the same knockback,

 

[Jigglymaster]

How does rollout **** shields? Most people punish rollout out of shield. I find that roll out works best if you constantly change your charge times. Roll out still deal lots of knock back at relatively low charge times.

I'm talking about the people who try to sheild the entire thing without trying to grab it or out prioritize it.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Hey guys.
Let's actually discuss a MU.
I'm gonig to go ahead and say Toon Link. Anyone else down?

 

[Blissard]

Actually, can we talk about Falco? I feel like the BBR MU Chart's -3 against Falco is really wrong, and I want to discuss our options against him.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I dont mind. I'm familiar with the MU, and i have a MM vs a falco this weekend. so thats fine with me.


Here is my Falco write up, from my MU thread i made.
Feel free to check it out.

Neutral​

---Summary---​

Spoiler

I don’t’ believe Falco has an advantage over Jigglypuff in this matchup. Falco is fairly lightweight so he can die easily around 100%. He has ranged attacks ie reflector and lasers but the reflector shouldn’t come out often against us, and we can duck lasers if we need to. One of Falco’s biggest gimmicks is the chain grab.. which doesn’t work on jigglypuff. He can tech chase us by knowing where we are going to go after the downthrow but that’s it.

Falco also cannot kill very easily which a lot of people may disagree with. Falco has three kill moves if you’re under the 115% range. You can find them below in the moves that kill range. Next to the kill potential moves I put what percent they will kill you at WITHOUT DI. Falco’s recovery is very poor and leaves them open for an easy opportunity for them to get gimped. Finally, Falco’s aerials are below average and jigglypuff beats falco in the air.​

---Moves To Watch Out For---​

Jab -> Grab​

–Jab comes out on Frame 2-
A Very common falco technique is the jab to grab combo. At low percents the grab can lead to a variety of things. For example it can lead to:
--Regrab if you airdodge or decide to land and shield. Or if you try to land behind them.
--Another jab.
--DACUS
It’s not nearly as good as marth’s follow ups but Falco does have many options. The best thing I have found after being Downthrown is to simply float off. Throughout the entire match you have time to get back in falco’s face. You have no need to land back on the ground for another grab. Get above falco. Falco’s aerial game should scare him off into not chasing you.​

Lasers​

Lasers can be very hard to deal with, but if you know what you are doing they shouldn’t give you that much trouble. For one, falco’s lasers ALWAYS make you face towards them when in the air. So Bair approaching is going to be difficult. You can duck the lasers but that might lead to falco shooting repetitive lasers over your head. At this point you have 4 options that I have discovered. Decide which works best for your situation:

1. Shield and powershield dash your way to get in falco’s face.
2. Shield and allow the lasers to push you safely onto the ledge where you will have ledge invincibility, thus not being hurt.
3. Time a jump (when the lasers directly above you) to jump between lasers.
4. Take a laser to the face.
5. Floating beats lasers. So use that to your advantage​

DACUS/Usmash​

–First hitbox comes out on frame 8-
The Dacus is a kill move for sure. For those who don’t know what a DACUS is, it’s a dash attack cancelled upsmash. Which is another term for an upsmash that slides from halfway across the stage. (mortar slide). A common way for Falco to use the dacus is after a SH’ed laser, buffered into a DACUS so the hitstun will allow for a safe hit from falcos upsmash. The Usmash does lose kill potential. Especially once you start hitting the 80-90 area and Falco is looking for that kill. You can punish the Dacus with a shield->SH -> Nair/Fair. Another choice is pound, though the ending lag when it hits falco’s shield can lead to an OOS usmash.

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​

Falco’s Aerials: Don't Be Scared​

Bair

–first hits out on frame 4-
The back air is one of Falco’s kill moves. It’s a sex kick. It comes out on frame 4 and the opening frames will kill. While the sex kick is lingering it doesn’t have kill potential just minor knockback. Just counter it with pound or go around it. It’s a hard move to land.​

Nair
–first hits out on frame 3-
is mostly used for pressure with short hops. At least as far as I’VE seen it used. On battlefield for example, Falco’s will SH through the platforms to Nair shield pressure or to force you off of the platform. Don’t try to beat it because the only move we could try to use is Dair and it’s not worth taking percents.

Fair
–first hits out on frame 6-
Never used. Be embarrassed when it hits you.

Dair
–first hits out on frame 5-
Used as a spike mostly. Don’t be predictable coming up off of the edge because he can punish you with it. If the falco has been “spike happy” try going in from the side, go down and rise up far enough Falco won’t want to come get you.​

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​

Fmash
–Hits on frame 16-18-
It’s used to tech chase or punish a predictable roll. It’ll only kill past 100%. Don’t worry too much over this one. Pound will beat it out. Just remember the hitbox on it is stupidly big, and on the backside. The ending lag is pretty hard on this attack. SH nair will be a good move to space.​

Phantasm​

This is one of Falco’s recovery moves. All attacks can hit through phantasm when timed correctly. Personally, I choose to use either pound or nair. If you it the nair, you can follow up with another nair or Fair depending on the percent. If it’s a higher percent the Fair should kill. Just know that Falco’s have a hard time getting back to the stage. Once you nair the phantasm they are going to try to do another one. Or at least drop down and try to use another one. Plan for this and punish it. This attack is the easiest to gimp Falco with.
​

Moves that kill:​

1. Bair will kill from center stage of Final D at 135% without DI. It will kill offstage (while you are recovering) at 100%.

2. Fsmash will kill at 100% from center stage.

3. Usmash/Dacus will kill at 95%.

4. Utilt kills around the same time as Usmash.

Moves to kill with:​

1. Utilt kills at 125%

2. From center final D, Fair kills at 113%

3. Rest will kill at 72%

4. Fsmash will kill at 100%

5. Usmash will kill at 104%

6. Rolllout will kill at 75%

---Jigglypuff’s Advatages---​

1.Punishing phantasm.
This is probably my favorite part of the matchup. Not only does this make the match more difficult for falco but it discourages falcos from chasing you on the sides of the stage. One bad screw up, regardless of perfent and they are dead.

2. Laser game.
Since we are an aerial character we can do well against the lasers. We can also duck below the lasers. They are still a pain but it’s something that every character has to deal with and we have a slight advantage over other characters.

3. Grab game.
Jigglypuff has great grab game. Her grab reach is awesome compared to other low tier characters and all throws do 10%, with 3% pummels. Punish short hopped Dairs or misplaces smashes with a backthrow and then punish them off the edge.

4. Grab release to death.
This is not as easy to do. But it’s useful. When Falco is short hopping his lasers if you can manage to dash grab him and hold him over the edge until he is grab released the only thing that he can do is fire-falco. The phantasm will be released underneath the stage so he will die. Time the fire falco correctly and edgehog him.

---Jiggly Vs Falco videos---​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0E6U9U6Zps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeSdZu8ZHRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPs7zaHeOOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C9Uf95Ml_o

 

[Blissard]

Good stuff Mink :D

I have a question: I read in Mr Eh's guide (really old guide lol) that Jiggs can grab release Falco to DACUS. Is this true? It'll make it much easier to net kills if it works.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I don't think so. Falco doesn't get air released as far as i know. MAYBE if they input a jump. I'll have to test that out.

Also, you saw my part of the MU where if we catch Falco jumping, and boost grab to hold him over the ledge, it'san instant kill right?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309139

Here's the new MU discussion.
Let's try to work through this so we can get to some LT's.


Sorry for the Double Post.
Used it for bump.

Also, fixed up the OP a bit, tell me if you guys like the layout.
We needed to find an updated pic for the OP. So give us some time.

 

[DellSmashman]

I feel like a lot of those matchups that are said to be -3 for Jigglypuff are greatly exaggerated, unless it's like MK (maybe even him), Snake, or Marth imo.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Snake is defintely a -3,
Marth is probably a -2

and MK is NOT a -3. Dapuffster says it's slightly above even. I believe he's aiming for a 55 or 60.

Though i agree alot of them are exaggerated.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Snake: -3
Mr. Game & Watch: -4 (I'm still looking for tricks in this MU, bear with me).
Marth: -2 (this is one of my favourite match-ups, I am 100% certain in this ratio).
Meta Knight: -2 (I disagree with DaPuffster. MK has too many options for us to cover all of them at once (similar to G&W vs. MK), even though we can technically counter most of them.)

 

[Exegguter]

Snake -3
Gaw -3
Yoshi -3
Marth -2
Mk -1

 

[-LzR-]

How in the hell would Marth be harder than Mk when he does basically then same thing 3x more effective?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MK is NOT -1, lol. He beats Wario -2, it stands to reason that we wouldn't do better than our bigger brother.

 

[Exegguter]

I just don't have as much trouble as I have with marth, with mk. I can't seem to get in against marth. His tippers are annyoing and kills us at like what? 65% I never see a chance to rest him and they're not as common as mks are.

I would give mk a 40-60 mks favour and agree with puffster there. Or is 40-60 a -2? If it's -2 ignore my -1 lol.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't see a single thing we can do to touch MK. He walls us like a piece of paper we are. He can make recovering a pain, he kill us early and racks up damage like crazy. I don't see how we can do anything for this MU.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You need to get a lot better if you are getting completely walled out by Marth AND Meta Knight to the point where you think the match-ups are unwinnable, Lazer.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

I used to go even with Raytay and beat other top marths on the ladder. I actually made improvements in that matchup. MK is different. There is just too much of an impact that small changes in an mk user's playstyle make toward your adapting speed and pretty much make "learning the match-up" a really flawed statement in regards to jiggz. Marth is so much easier btw

Consistent tournament wins against top mk players will never happen. Ill bet money on that. "better lucky than good." We'll never see a jigglypuff main(who goes all jiggz) win consistently at big tournaments. As long as mk is left unbanned, we need luck. And any match-up that NEEDS luck.....

IS A TERRIBLE MATCH-UP FOR US -.-

 

[IhaveSonar]

I'm just starting to take up Brawl Jigglypuff, but from my observations the Falco MU is close to, if not even.

As Mink said, his chaingrab isn't too effective against us, and we can duck under or hop over his lasers, greatly diminishing his two best tools. Additionally, he is a lightweight like us, so we can knock him off the stage easily and gimp both phantasm(with Nair) and his regular recovery. To top it off, pound conveniently outprioritizes a lot of his moves.

As I said, I'm fairly inexperienced with brawl Jigglypuff, but it seems to me that a lot of Falco's gimmicks don't work too well on us, and we can gimp and K.O. him fairly easily.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

His gimmicks don't work, and we can gimp him easily... But even without that Falco is a better character than Jigglypuff. He camps better with lasers, he has a great defense in the form of jab and can KO us really early with bair and smashes.

It's definitely not even.

 

[-LzR-]

I feel like getting through Marth is pretty easy compared to MK. I have played both Mus and so on. I don't get completely walled in those MUs, but I really fell that I should if those players totally knew the MU.

 

[Exegguter]

Uhm grim. We kill falco at a low percentage also. Rest kills at around 70%, rollout around 75% (lolrollout), fair/fsmash kills around 90/100% usmash/utilt/dash around 100/120% and we gimp him very easily. I don't see how falco has a solid advantage. He has an advantage and it's not even but I wouldn't say 60-40 his favour.

 

[-LzR-]

We cannot touch Falco on the stage.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Rollout kills before rest does.

Also, i have a list of very kill move and percents In the OP:

1. Bair will kill from center stage of Final D at 135% without DI. It will kill offstage (while you are recovering) at 100%.

2. Fsmash will kill at 100% from center stage.

3. Usmash/Dacus will kill at 95%.

4. Utilt kills around 125%

 

[Exegguter]

We cannot touch Falco on the stage.

Really? 4 real tho....<_<

Really?




@mink
What about rest and rollout? Around 70% iirc?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Oh my bad. I did that backwards.

1. Utilt kills at 125%

2. From center final D, Fair kills at 113%

3. Rest will kill at 72%

4. Fsmash will kill at 100%

5. Usmash will kill at 104%

6. Rolllout will kill at 75%

Looks like rollout DOES kill a bit later than rest on falco.
NEVERMINDDDDDD

Also, this rollout is grounded, not aerial.




ALSO

We need to make a new MU picture for the OP based off of the tier list v6.

The next character we will be discussing will be Ganondorf.
Followed by Link.
We will be going up the tier list, bottom up. So that we can address all LT's first.

Unfortunately, in order to make the MU thread complete, this IS the way we will be doing it. Let's wrap up the falco export so we can get this started.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Discuss Ganon.,
Link in OP.

 

[<π]

rollout is a great move.

I think puffs under use it.