The Jigglypuff Stage Discussion Thread -Smashville

What's Puff's Best Starter Stage?

  • Final Destination

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Castle Siege

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#1
Assuming we're using the Unity Ruleset then the main stages we will be using is:

Neutral:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
Castle Siege
Pokemon Stadium 1

Counterpick:
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Delphino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon

We should break down each of these staged to see what we can make a use of. I want to discuss who we should and should NOT CP to these stages, what we should ban. Everything. When we discuss stage choices in the Exports, we can put the stage choices in Collapse Boxes. Eventualy we can fill this up.

We should at least get what stages we should NOT go to against certain characters.

Diagram:
Red -- Poor Stage
Blue -- Neutral Stage
Green -- Good stage


Final Destination
--Poor Stage. Character Dependent--

Pros:

There are less platforms for us to be pressured on.
It is much easier for us to juggle other characters.
Using rollout on the stage leaves less options for our opponents. (still doesn't make this move safe whatsoever)



Cons:
There is no safe way for jigglypuff to land without punishment.
Characters with good stage control will reign over us.
Alof of puffs air game is limited.
Less room for rollout mindgames and ledge/platform pressure.
The stage is much longer than others, making it harder to scrooge.

Characters you may want to bring here:

:marth: :mario2: :gw: :wario: :ganondorf:

It limits some characters stage and platform control. Characters such as marth have very good platform control and can punish us while being safe. Characters such as Mario can't use their projectiles as freely and makes it more difficult for the opponent. As for Ganon, it makes it easier to avoid his attacks.

Characters you don't want to see here.

:snake: :falco: :diddy: :popo: :yoshi2: :bowser2:

For one thing, snake's mines really mess up our already poor ground game. Snake with platforms is broken, but snake not giving us a place to land safely is even more broken. The proximity mines and grenades mess with our rollout.

For Falco and Diddy they have amazing stage control. Falco can camp very easily and phantasm and lasers are incredibly effective on this stage. Diddy's bananas make this stage very difficult to keep control of.

HOWEVER.

Dapuffster says:
Anyways, even though it wouldn't be good for Jigglypuff to fight Diddy here. I'd counterpick it anyways if they had a pocket diddy or weren't playing their main diddy to encourage them to do so, cuz I like that matchup.

Besides encouraging players to use Diddy, theres no one else that I'd want to counterpick this stage against.
And the ice climber part should be self explanatory. No where to run and hide.

Watch for Grab Release characters. (for a list please reference the Grab Release Export thread)

TL;DR
This is a bad stage if you're playing a ground game character. If you're playing against a character with any grab releases, this is not the place to go. Take characters here if the character depends on platforms to perform well. That is the only reason you should be going here.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#2
Next Discussion is:

Battlefield:

What are the pros and cons of this stage?

Who do we not want to face here?

Who should we bring here?

Should this be a strike in our neutrals?
 

EraOfGames

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#3
FD can be a really good stage if you like to abuse Rollout, because there's not any platforms to retreat to. If you're having a problem with projectile camping though, don't go here. Never ever take Snake to FD, unless you're pretty damn confident you can win. I would take characters with RCO lag here, like Mario. Striking really depends on who you're facing.
 

Grim Tuesday

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#4
What are the pros and cons of this stage?
Pros: Characters with long-ranged CCQ attacks can't camp under platforms to make approaching difficult. There are no platforms to retreat to to get out of Puff's juggling. The lack of platforms makes a player takes away some of the options of a player approaching a camping Puff, making it easier to predict and counter their options.

Cons: Lack of platforms make it harder for us to land without punishment, and thus regain stage control after losing it. Characters with amazing flat stage control beat Puff out here harder than they do elsewhere.

Who do we not want to face here?
I'd put it down to mainly preference, Final Destination is one of my favorite stages so I take lots of people here (even as Meta Knight), but others undoubtedly feel differently.

I would avoid Diddy Kong, simply because the match-up is easier for us with platforms. Also avoid... Fox, Falco and Pit (improves their projectile game)... Ice Climbers because they are harder to escape from without platforms, Yoshi because he has an easier time camping eggs and getting grabs and other characters who share those attributes, I guess (can't be bothered listing everyone who is good here).

Who should we bring here?
Snake, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth and Wario all immediately come to mind.

If Snake/G&W/Marth camp around platforms, it makes it A LOT harder for Puff to get in, in my experience. G&W and Wario dislike this stage because it hurts their mobility game, Marth just doesn't really get anything from FD and Snake becomes much more bearable due to our hits being much more worth-while (juggling).

Should this be a strike in our neutrals?
Usually, yes.
 

Kaptain

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#5
I would say one con is that we have a REALLY hard time going under this one, so that part of our camp game is killed.

But as far as who i would take here, it would have to be a falco. It helps to limit his recovery options. Every, and I mean EVERY falco is going to phantasm back to the stage if they are not below it. This stage he can either recover high, which is easy to punish, or recover even, which we can camp with our N-air. As far as his lazers go, if you time it you can jump them OoS or just get the lead and squat. He has to approach and has no platforms to help him with.

Any other character i would avoid this stage with, as platforms can help us alot.

However, we can kinda hide under that little lip that the stage has.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#6
FD can be a really good stage if you like to abuse Rollout, because there's not any platforms to retreat to. If you're having a problem with projectile camping though, don't go here. Never ever take Snake to FD, unless you're pretty damn confident you can win. I would take characters with RCO lag here, like Mario. Striking really depends on who you're facing.
I agree with your RCO statement. However i feel that rollout is a move that easily being... overcome by opponents. The way i feel that people will get hit by this is by baiting or platforms. Not so much by flat stages anymore.

Pros: Characters with long-ranged CCQ attacks can't camp under platforms to make approaching difficult. There are no platforms to retreat to to get out of Puff's juggling. The lack of platforms makes a player takes away some of the options of a player approaching a camping Puff, making it easier to predict and counter their options.


You should clarify what CCQ means.
I also agree with alot of your cons.


Cons: Lack of platforms make it harder for us to land without punishment, and thus regain stage control after losing it. Characters with amazing flat stage control beat Puff out here harder than they do elsewhere.

Agreed thats why we don't want Diddy here.


I'd put it down to mainly preference, Final Destination is one of my favorite stages so I take lots of people here (even as Meta Knight), but others undoubtedly feel differently.

I would avoid Diddy Kong, simply because the match-up is easier for us with platforms. Also avoid... Fox, Falco and Pit (improves their projectile game)... Ice Climbers because they are harder to escape from without platforms, Yoshi because he has an easier time camping eggs and getting grabs and other characters who share those attributes, I guess (can't be bothered listing everyone who is good here).

Very well stated.


Snake, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth and Wario all immediately come to mind.

If Snake/G&W/Marth camp around platforms, it makes it A LOT harder for Puff to get in, in my experience. G&W and Wario dislike this stage because it hurts their mobility game, Marth just doesn't really get anything from FD and Snake becomes much more bearable due to our hits being much more worth-while (juggling).

I would disagree with Snake. Snake has very good stage control and as puff we cannot utilize rollout on FD against snake. HE can cover literally every inch of this stage.

Usually, yes.
I would say one con is that we have a REALLY hard time going under this one, so that part of our camp game is killed.

But as far as who i would take here, it would have to be a falco. It helps to limit his recovery options. Every, and I mean EVERY falco is going to phantasm back to the stage if they are not below it. This stage he can either recover high, which is easy to punish, or recover even, which we can camp with our N-air. As far as his lazers go, if you time it you can jump them OoS or just get the lead and squat. He has to approach and has no platforms to help him with.

Any other character i would avoid this stage with, as platforms can help us alot.

However, we can kinda hide under that little lip that the stage has.
I want to hear more about your falco MU info. I feel that this is a bad stage for fighting falco because his lasers limit us. So you could prefer this stage over CS and PS1 to Falco?
 
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#7
But as far as who i would take here, it would have to be a falco. It helps to limit his recovery options. Every, and I mean EVERY falco is going to phantasm back to the stage if they are not below it. This stage he can either recover high, which is easy to punish, or recover even, which we can camp with our N-air. As far as his lazers go, if you time it you can jump them OoS or just get the lead and squat. He has to approach and has no platforms to help him with.
Letting Falco have more room to camp us? Great Idea.

Also, you can't do my scourging strat on FD. It's much easier to do them on BF, SV, and Lylat.

Anyways, even though it wouldn't be good for Jigglypuff to fight Diddy here. I'd counterpick it anyways if they had a pocket diddy or weren't playing their main diddy to encourage them to do so, cuz I like that matchup.

Besides encouraging players to use Diddy, theres no one else that I'd want to counterpick this stage against.

As for banning, I'd ban it against Falco, Fox, Yoshi, IC, and probably some others I can't think of atm.

As a Jigglypuff main, this is my list of neutrals that I'd want to play the most to the least.

SV, BF, Lylat, FD, Castle Siege, PS1, YI
 

Grim Tuesday

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#9
Scrooging is overrated imo, Puff gets gimped WAY harder than MK if she ****s up, with planking you are at least close to the ledge...

@Mink: Roll-out isn't good against people who know the Puff match-up. At all. It is especially bad against Snake cause he can tilt it on reaction or toss a grenade to force you to commit to the roll while charging.

My list of starter preferences: Smashville, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 1, Final Destination, Castle Siege, Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Brawl).
 

Grim Tuesday

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#11
Smashville and Battlefield are stages I am very used to and I think they are good Jigglypuff stages just due to their general layout.

Pokemon Stadium is a little more janky, but it makes camping a lot easier due to the transformations and is good for Puff during the neutral state.

FD is just one of my favourite stages, 100% bias for that one.

Castle Siege is a stage I'm not very used to, but the layout is alright and camping on the second transformation is good.

Lylat Cruise and YI:B, I HATE tilted ground because they mess with my dair, and the platforms being so low is annoying for my playstyle... But they do have some good traits.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#14
Japes is damn good for us, i agree. It's too bad its banned now. Brinstar is a great choice though. Let's stick to the neutrals for the time being. We'll get to the CP's later.
 

-LzR-

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#15
Well Finland has Japes and I will make sure it stays. Too bad I don't use Puff much in tourneys :(
But Japes seems to be **** for Puff. Easier to kill with Fair there. Rest doesn't really kill but who the hell cares. We can sometimes rollout and cancel into the ledges and everything. And we can camp like no tomorrow.
 

Kaptain

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#16
I was mainly just saying its easier to gimp falco here than on a stage where he can phantasm to a platform instead of the main floor, which can lead to earlier kills.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#17
I was mainly just saying its easier to gimp falco here than on a stage where he can phantasm to a platform instead of the main floor, which can lead to earlier kills.
See, but this is by far falco's best stage. He has some gay shenanigans. I don't know if you've ever played a good falco. But phhantasm locks onto any ledge on the stage. The dthrow to spike works into the water in so many places.

Also We can rest over water and wake up, though do it upstream. Alot of characters will have to kill us horizontally.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#18
Okay so what i've gathered so far is:

Final Destination:

**Good against characters that don't have projectiles (or projectiles that work off of platforms, ie Mario).
**We can use rollout freely.
**However we have problems landing due to the lack of platforms.

Dapuffster: Anyways, even though it wouldn't be good for Jigglypuff to fight Diddy here. I'd counterpick it anyways if they had a pocket diddy or weren't playing their main diddy to encourage them to do so, cuz I like that matchup.
^ Not the voice of the community. If you aren't familiar with fighting diddy kong that's a really bad idea.

Jigglypuff enjoys having platforms, so this stage is immediately upped by SV (easier to control) and BF (more platforms).

**Characters you WOULDN'T bring here:**
:falco: :popo: :snake: :yoshi2: :bowser2: :fox:


**Any characters that have a GR on us, it's probably a better bet to be brought to a stage where you can avoid the grab. As for fighting ZSS (who has a GR), keep in mind that we can crouch it.


Current Rating:
Below Average.


Doesn't give us any clear advantages while giving us disadvantages. It's out classes by other neutrals in many aspects.
 

EraOfGames

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#19
If you're having trouble recovering on FD, use Rollout. Don't be dumb with it and go directly to them unless you know 100% you can hit them or get away since a ton of moves beat Rollout. But yeah, it's kinda hard to catch a fully charged Rollout racing across the screen if you go from above or you can just wait till the ledge or right side is open. If you decide to go offstage with Rollout, without touching the ground first, make sure you have enough jumps too. Lastly, do not hold down if you try to grab ledge with Rollout because it will ignore the ledge completely and you bounce off, very likely dying. Rarely any situations you would do this on purpose.
Alot of characters will have to kill us horizontally.
I'm sorry but I can't help it

*a lot
 

Grim Tuesday

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#24
The side platforms allow for some easy pound and uair set-ups to improve our aggressive options game. They also allow for extended combos with bair, nair and fair in quite a few situations, and you can trap opponents on them for an easy tech-chase > rest.

The top platform is a bad position for us in most match-ups, so I wouldn't recommend staying up there (we are too vulnerable to fast attacks from below). We can get caught on the side platforms as well, though, so it's probably best to try and weave around the opponent and aim for the centre of the stage when recovering.

Several opponents can camp under platforms to make it more difficult for us to approach them (Snake, Marth and Meta Knight come to mind straight away), but they can still be pressured.

The little knob thing at the bottom makes scrooging difficult, but gives us a little "cave" of sorts to hide in while planking.

All in all, the stage is alright for Puff. I don't think I would take anyone here specifically, but I wouldn't avoid it against anyone except for the characters I mentioned above. Basically anyone who can pressure us from below really well, or who can camp underneath the side platforms.

Most top tiers simply out-perform us here.

I would avoid: Marth, Snake, Zero Suit Samus, Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, etc...
I would take: Any low (or mid, I guess) tier that can be easily camped by air camping the top platform.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#25
We benefit highly from the edge slip so the smaller platforms are actually very good for us. It also allows us to safely poke and gtfo of there. The top platform, as grim said, isn't fun for us to be on. WE can easily be punished for landing there and we don't have many moves that are as safe to use as if we were using the bottom platforms.

Though, rollout, IMO is much more useful on this stage. It alllows us to use the platforms as ways to "condition" the opponent into assuming where we will rollout. So we could bait a jump on a platform and aim there instead.

Obviously moves that kill vertically benefit more from platforms and the top platform is ridiculous. Rest kills mad early, as does Utilt. Imo, those are the two most viable vertical killers lol.

The lip on this stage doesn't **** up people as much as FD so this stage is also a better option to other characters. Like most stages, it isn't about what you excel at, but how you can use the stages pros to your opponents cons. As puff we are out-performed by 95% of the cast. When we CP it isn't to necessarily amp OUR game but more know how to play the opponent on the stage.

Personally, I wouldn't want to see Marth here. Characters like TL and ICs would be good to play against here. Though i would prefer to see IC's on PS1 or CS. For TL, the stage can offer protection from bombs and arrow.

The blast zone is average here So killing won't be affected in any way. I would also bring falco here.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#28
I personally don't like this stage against anyone who has stage control.
There's not enough to work with at all...

But in that same sense, if its someone we control (via landings etc) this is good for us.
But we don't want someone that hits through the platform.
I like this stage v DDD.


Also, let's wrap up what chars we don't wanna see on BF
and who we would.

GO!
 

-LzR-

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#29
Anyone with crazy platform control like G&W, Marth, DK and Ike come to mind. The platforms cover them a lot more than they do to us. I don't know who I would take here actually. The platforms just seem to be in our way.
 

Z'zgashi

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#34
As a Yoshi player, I find this stage hands down my second choice to take Jiggs to. Its basically like FD, only with 1 single platform that is easy for us to handle. With our DJ tricks and Platform cancels, we can use it to actually snake around the stage too, allowing us lots of stage control (almost on par with FD). So I would say dont ever take Yoshi there, the platform is also enough out of the way that it wount interrupt any of our camping, Grab Releases, etc, so really its just a very slightly less good FD for us in this MU, still pretty bad for Jiggs.

But in general for Jiggs, Id say its not as great of an option as most other neutrals just due to the fact that Jiggs needs platforms to be safe in most mus, and you're only seeing one here, and its never even in a static position. The platform can also help save people trying to recover which can be pretty irritating if youve just finished a good wall of pain, just to see the platform pop out and rescue Olimar.

Overall, Id say it isnt really a bad stage for Puff cuz it does have all the necessary requirements she needs to excel, but it doesnt offer them in the best way in all situations, and also can be used against her in some match ups. Basically, you shouldnt really have a big problem here, but there are better options in the neutral selection, at least in my opinion.
 

Serynder

Jigglypuff is the best.
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#35
Humm. Though I'm not very well known on these boards, hopefully my own addition can have some value for consideration. I actually think Smashville is Jigglypuff's(in the way that I apply her) second to most beneficial starter stage(with Battlefield being the first), if Lylat, instead of Pokemon Stadium, is the fifth neutral. This is actually due to that single platform, which places itself so conveniently and advantageously off stage.

While the platform can prevent early gimps on characters who have just suffered from a WoP(though I don't really see how you would consistently apply an effective and beneficial WoP which ends up that high, or be unable to continue aerial zone pressuring if your opponent recovers on the platform vertically), at the same time, it allows Jigglypuff to reset her jumps and begin a constant and nearly impenetrable aerial spacing system. As the platform touches the other side of the stage, you can reset your jumps on it, and catch a majority of the cast with an aerial if they try to intercept your landing.

As for how it affects on-stage applications, the only disadvantage in having a platform cross over is that you wouldn't really be able to up-throw regrab consistently, unless you're capable of calculating how your opponent will want to land or approach while on the platform. That and you can't shield pressure using rollout, unless you figure when your opponent will drop their shield and jump beforehand, so that by the time that they do, your rollout hits them as they're coming out of the shield and their lower body(at the least) is still in the area where rollout will meet them.

The other advantages and significantly effective options in having a platform which can go all the way out and off to both sides of the stage, are that you can always save your jumps, and be at a point to intercept your opponent's recovery if you've placed them in a position where they're near the blast zone and/or require multiple jumps or the use of different motion-providing moves to bring them closer to the stage where they can recover to their benefit. You can even just sit on the platform and charge rollout to catch people who would try to approach while the platform is offstage/jump to avoid rollout, or platform camp characters without very effective zone pressuring options. Or you can use it to catch a character with down smash off stage, or catch Meta Knight with rest if they try to rising u-air from underneath(or really, any character who would linger above the platform for more than a half second after their aerial move's hitbox ends. Any of these provide Jigglypuff with additional options to apply during a game, which will influence beneficial results.

I probably can name a few more uses for the platform, but I've left out some aspects which should be covered for the stage itself situation for Jigglypuff. Things like being able to aerial zone pressure/hit or gimp your opponent under the stage(for Pits/Meta Knights/Marths/Snakes/et cetera), which wouldn't occur as frequently for the other neutrals, because there's more of a stage to land against to tech(or if not, you wouldn't 100% of the time get knocked far enough to be incapable of recovery). The lack of the stage size as well gives Jigglypuff the option of being able to release rollout, with a majority of players being incapable of visually registering it in time to produce an appropriate response other than shield, or some instinctively-adopted/impressed-to-be safety move with an early frame/disjointed hitbox. This provides Jigglypuff with a more consistent and effective shield pressuring, shield-drop-punishing option, as she can just hold rollout, or wait a half second after full charge to release it, with the opponent being on the stage in an idle/approaching/spacing state.

Aside from rollout, and some u-air and pound combinations, her on-stage game on Smashville doesn't differ significantly, nor disadvantageously, compared to any other neutral. It's just the moving platform and lack of the stage's vertical width(side walls) which provide different options, which there are a considerable number more beneficial rather than hindering ones, on the stage, compared to the rest of the starters. In fact, there are only two notable aspects to having the platform work against Jigglypuff's advantage, which get covered by what she's provided with as co-existing concepts to having the platform, making them negligible.

All-in-all, the one aspect about Smashville which really works out towards Jigglypuff's favor, and makes the stage her, in the way which I apply her, the second-most ideal stage to begin on, is the fact that the moving platform goes off stage and traverses between both sides, allowing Jigglypuff to infinitely incorporate an aerial spacing/zoning/pressuring/trading system which no other character can consistently challenge. In addition, providing her with even more off-stage options from what she would have otherwise, compared to Battlefield, Final Destination, Lylat, and even Yoshi's.
 

Grim Tuesday

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#36
In all honesty, with a character like Jigglypuff saying flat-out that stages are good or bad for her doesn't really work ('cept cases like Brinstar and other CPs). Stage discussions should be centered around the tools Puff has on the stage, rather than why you should strike to it or whatever, that should be left to preference.
 

Serynder

Jigglypuff is the best.
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#37
Humm. It does have a significance to it, though. The stages differ, and recognizing how beneficial those differing options, or tools, are, allows you to receive an informational suggestion which can lead to more favorable proceedings in following situations which they would be acknowledged in. While I'm not trying to persuade anyone into choosing against stages which they're comfortable on, I mean to say that the use of this stage over another can be more beneficial, which could produce its own appeal and make the stage a more preferable one to use based on the given facts.

But I'll definitely keep that in mind about the stage discussions, and what appeals and is considered moreso in these threads, since I've never really been an active poster on the boards. Thank you for that information!
 

Serynder

Jigglypuff is the best.
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#40
Oh, thank you. I hope you're able to make use of it! Sleep well! :D.


Add-on edit:

I forgot this was uploaded, but this displays some of the attributes for Smashville that I was describing-- Though I didn't really process the actual system for aerial spacing as much then, only zoning. But I did use the platform for jump resetting so that I could continue with the incorporation. But you can see how effective rollout was for shield pressure, and punishing shield drops on instinctive shielding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1DDWgT3wHw
 
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