The Jet-Black General, Black Knight, Echoes into Smash

[LoopyBlack]

My friends. Join me and the rest of #TeamReal in the shadow realm. There is relief in pain

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Sorry to see the Black Knight as an Assist Trophy. He would have made an awesome Ike Echo.

 

[LostEggs]

I'd rather he not be in at all. Getting a plant over characters like Skull Kid, Issac, and Black Knight feels insulting. Never thought I'd be disinterested in what gets added to a Smash game.

 

[CrimsonFlash]

I'd rather he not be in at all. Getting a plant over characters like Skull Kid, Issac, and Black Knight feels insulting. Never thought I'd be disinterested in what gets added to a Smash game.

this, just so much, this, I really hate assist trophies for this reason, it kills hope, black knight isn't in the base game? fine, fine, I can be happy, I can speculate, I can have hope at least, and I especially don't get slapped in the face by what could have been every time I use aa assist trophy, I get it for 3rd parties, like zero, or characters who are questionable at best moveset wise, like tiki, but for characters who would be easy, I think it would be better not to even bother, it's like losing but they give you a medal that says you tried, am I really going to display this for any reason other than Irony.

but with this I lose my best fire emblem villain in favor of the second worst fire emblem lord who would only serve to piss off everyone but his fans (the only people who are happy are the ones who asked outright) and a freaking plant who looks like a waste of development resources. also waluigi fans, take note, you lost your character for this, sakurai quirk isn't an excuse this time, this one was for the fans.

then we have dlc, why did sakurai decide such limited quantity and with such rigidity, this means that the standards for extra inclusions must be higher rather than allow for some simple and easy ones, now every character must be at least a ryu, we will not get any roys.

edit: also, I just want to say one more thing, simon belmont should have been the last reveal, not incineroar, that was just stupid on sakurai's part.

edit again: edelgard is also deconfirmed

 

[Icelerate]

I love how the Black Knight says, "Know your place!" before knocking Ike off the stage. It's a nod to PoR where Ike was still no match for the Black Knight. It also shows how badass he is.

 

[LuigiRB]

this, just so much, this, I really hate assist trophies for this reason, it kills hope, black knight isn't in the base game? fine, fine, I can be happy, I can speculate, I can have hope at least, and I especially don't get slapped in the face by what could have been every time I use aa assist trophy, I get it for 3rd parties, like zero, or characters who are questionable at best moveset wise, like tiki, but for characters who would be easy, I think it would be better not to even bother, it's like losing but they give you a medal that says you tried, am I really going to display this for any reason other than Irony.

but with this I lose my best fire emblem villain in favor of the second worst fire emblem lord who would only serve to piss off everyone but his fans (the only people who are happy are the ones who asked outright) and a freaking plant who looks like a waste of development resources. also waluigi fans, take note, you lost your character for this, sakurai quirk isn't an excuse this time, this one was for the fans.

then we have dlc, why did sakurai decide such limited quantity and with such rigidity, this means that the standards for extra inclusions must be higher rather than allow for some simple and easy ones, now every character must be at least a ryu, we will not get any roys.

edit: also, I just want to say one more thing, simon belmont should have been the last reveal, not incineroar, that was just stupid on sakurai's part.

edit again: edelgard is also deconfirmed

Why is Edelgard deconfirmed?

 

[CrimsonFlash]

Why is Edelgard deconfirmed?

same reason as rex, timing was very much not on their side and DLC was set from the start.

but hey, at least we have chrom, because awakening is the only game that matters.

 

[LoopyBlack]

I feel like I've come full circle. When the game was announced I wasn't excited over newcomers because they already had everybody. Then the Ridley reveal, and the K Rool reveal, and even the Isabelle reveal had me thinking that Sakurai had some great stuff in store for us. I thought we could actually get characters like Shantae, Geno, or Black Knight. And then we got the Grinch leak which just compounded that excitement.

And then, finally, we got the Kencineroar direct that just left me feeling deflated. Revealing Piranha Plant as the first DLC fighter was the perfect way to end this speculation cycle. It felt like a punchline lmao. I'm not mad or upset, I'm just baffled.

 

[Red Dead Redeemed]

Ah well, I can't say it doesn't sting that BK is an AT, but honestly I'm not as mad about this Direct as most others. Both Ken and Incineroar look good, I already adore Piranha Plant for his WTF-ness, I smiled like an idiot when they showed off Adult Tiki as an AT, and holy **** Subspace Emissary gets a sequel with actual voice acting this time!

It's been fun hanging out with you guys while it lasted. I know it feels disappointing, but as a whole Smash Ultimate is gonna be an incredible game.

 

[LostEggs]

If the rest of the DLC is anything less than stellar I'll be left feeling like I got kicked in the nuts. Don't do that Sakurai. Hm, I wonder if Sakurai would break the AT rules? He's broken so many of his own rules already, maybe down the line a character could be both an assist and fighter?

 

[CrimsonFlash]

If the rest of the DLC is anything less than stellar I'll be left feeling like I got kicked in the nuts. Don't do that Sakurai. Hm, I wonder if Sakurai would break the AT rules? He's broken so many of his own rules already, maybe down the line a character could be both an assist and fighter?

there are no rules, it's just a thing that happens, there is little reason to do so, I think that if we could get 200,000 people to harass someone for long enough we could force them to promote an assist, but that would be really wrong to do, could also have the opposite result, but if you want my opinion on it, I don't think there is any good reason why an assist can't coexist with a playable version, either with a ninth pallet swap, or just disabling the assist altogether while the character in being played.

 

[LostEggs]

I know this is unlikely but, wouldn't it be hilarious if BK stays the same and we Get Zelgius as a DLC fighter with an Ashera's tower as a dlc stage? (Why did you have to do it like that Sakurai? )

Edit* I noticed something interesting (could be nothing, could be something). When the AT's were introduced they named the game they came from. So like in the case of BlackKnight it said Path of Radiance, not Radiant Dawn. This may not doom other incarnations of a character, so DLC Black Knight could happen if it's Radiant Dawn Black Knight.

 

[SSB4 Roy Pharae]

same reason as rex, timing was very much not on their side and DLC was set from the start.

but hey, at least we have chrom, because awakening is the only game that matters.

The difference is we know Rex and Xenoblade 2 well enough, its characters and much more at this point. Rex actually got a Mii Costume for these points, Edelgard doesn't have this.

Three Houses still has only one trailer that gives us an idea how it would play and we still don't know much at all about the game itself, Byleth, the main protagonists themselves, and not to mention the legendary weapons they may wield. I can't really see the idea of Edelgard coming in the game and not wield her legendary weapon which we haven't seen or heard about. I think by the time we hear more about Three Houses, the characters, their weapons, I know some will expand on fan-made moveset ideas on how Edelgard can play and with her axe (I'd love for it be lightning-charged like Armads).

As much as I want Edelgard as DLC, Sakurai has the final say on that and I'll respect his choice whether or not he wants to represent Three Houses as DLC.

 

[Kadohl]

I have to admit, even after a couple of days, seeing the AT BK footage makes me a little frustrated. It's like he's almost there as a playable character, he has a nice new model and animations, it's like he only needed a little extra push to be a playable character. Even just this screenshot shows how well he would fit in: https://i.imgur.com/X9xasLV.png

 

[Fastblade5035]

Fun fact, Black Knight and Tiki don't have any original voice clips. They're all reused from Fire Emblem Heroes.

 

[CrimsonFlash]

I have to admit, even after a couple of days, seeing the AT BK footage makes me a little frustrated. It's like he's almost there as a playable character, he has a nice new model and animations, it's like he only needed a little extra push to be a playable character. Even just this screenshot shows how well he would fit in: https://i.imgur.com/X9xasLV.png

yup, this is incredibly frustrating to look at, I just hope the mii fighter costume is there still just so I can see these two next to each other.

regardless, I think promotion dlc can happen, after the rampant deconfirmations in the direct, it makes me wonder if we will get someone to pull a rathalos but as a playable fighter, I mean there are few if any first party characters who aren't B-list or lower to add which would only pour more salt in the wound in the case of an inclusion.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

While I remain upset over Shadow's fate, I am actually okay with how Black Knight turned out. Really would have been nice to play as but I always knew his chances were 50/50. If anything I'm glad Fire Emblem has more Assist Trophies now.

 

[Machete]

It sucks that both my most wanted Fire Emblem characters ended up ATs. I knew Tiki was sadly doomed, but I really hoped BK would make it as an echo. Oh well.

 

[LostEggs]

Inb4 some one makes a mod that gives most of the AT's movesets and makes most of em playable. And Inb4 it gets axed by Nintendo.

 

[Nickolas]

Sakurai said that the 5 dlc fighters won't be Echoes, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of Echo fighters coming in free updates. Black Knight would go well in a pack with Shadow since they both have a "dark and edgy" theme. Wishful thinking but a man can dream

 

[CrimsonFlash]

Sakurai said that the 5 dlc fighters won't be Echoes, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of Echo fighters coming in free updates. Black Knight would go well in a pack with Shadow since they both have a "dark and edgy" theme. Wishful thinking but a man can dream

to be completely honest, the black knight easily works as a unique fighter, there are plenty of resources in game which make him stand out and separate him from Ike, I really don't know where the echo fighter argument comes from outside of assuming that he isn't big enough to get in on his own and using echo fighter as a compromise, I think that if it came down to fan service smash he would get in if everyone is here wasn't a thing, he is at worst eleventh in line, and with standard newcomer numbers I think it would have happened, he has been wanted since brawl by an ever growing audience.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

As much as I was tired of FE characters I did admit Black Knight would had been the only one I wouldn't had minded being he would of been another villain to the roster. Late but condolences to the supporters that he didn't make the cut.

He is neatly animated though for an assist I'll give it that.

 

[LoopyBlack]

Kinda continuing from that conversation... Do we think assist trophies can become playable fighters? Sakurai is circumventing all of our expectations, so maybe we could have a fighter who is also an assist trophy. That's what I've heard some people say, anyway.

Personally, I don't think it will happen. I don't have any particular reason for feeling that way. The combination of the Isaac AT and the Piranha Plant reveal just killed any hope I had for those characters. Sakurai will do what he wants, that's the message I got. Fans of Black Knight, Skull Kid, Isaac, and Shadow should not get their hopes up imo...

 

[Diddy Kong]

I have to admit, even after a couple of days, seeing the AT BK footage makes me a little frustrated. It's like he's almost there as a playable character, he has a nice new model and animations, it's like he only needed a little extra push to be a playable character. Even just this screenshot shows how well he would fit in: https://i.imgur.com/X9xasLV.png

Well, that might only help the Black Knight in the long run honestly.

Why?

There's a lot of newcomers now who got a straight up promotion from last game.

- Where all Mii Fighter costumes
- Was part of a Final Smash, and frankly STILL IS! Which is honestly just stupid.. but yeah, totally works for him.
- Was a boss / stage obstacle
- Was a Assist Trophy, and even featured as one of Samus's alternative costumes
- Has been doomed to be Peach's alternative costume since Melee

And that's all the newcomers besides the Belmonts, Ken and Incineroar. I'll exclude Piranha Plant because it breaks all patterns and barriers. But you'll get me.

Besides, I think it's QUITE a likely prospect that there will be a remake of at least Path of Radiance, maybe coupled with Radiant Dawn, before the next Smash comes around. So that's good for the Black Knight's future.

It's a missed boat, and yes I didn't like it either (was but a slap in the face compared to the fleshwound which was the AT of Isaac before it however...) but it's not the end!

 

[Luigifan18]

Inb4 some one makes a mod that gives most of the AT's movesets and makes most of em playable. And Inb4 it gets axed by Nintendo.

If somebody does make that mod, I sure hope they take a good look at the moveset I came up with for Bomberman. Maybe my Krystal moveset as well, but that one may not have aged as well. Delzethin came up with a Bomberman moveset as well, and that one is substantially less complicated than mine, so it may be easier on the modders (fewer assets needing to be made and whatnot).

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

Some footage of his AT in action. He has a double jump, can teleport (Warp Powder?) and is not as resistant to attack as shown in the Direct (if timestamp doesn't work go to 17:08).
https://youtu.be/NkkgAnMLFHw?t=1028

 

[Kadohl]

That's really cool, he looks awesome in action.

I also learned today that the Nintendo president said that he wants more DLC for existing big games. Obviously Smash isn't an existing game yet, but if Nintendo are pushing for more DLC with big name games it might give a little hope for the AT characters (Shadow, BK, ect) to be included at some point down the line as some DLC. That's what I'm telling myself anyway.

 

[Machete]

Kinda continuing from that conversation... Do we think assist trophies can become playable fighters? Sakurai is circumventing all of our expectations, so maybe we could have a fighter who is also an assist trophy. That's what I've heard some people say, anyway.

Personally, I don't think it will happen. I don't have any particular reason for feeling that way. The combination of the Isaac AT and the Piranha Plant reveal just killed any hope I had for those characters. Sakurai will do what he wants, that's the message I got. Fans of Black Knight, Skull Kid, Isaac, and Shadow should not get their hopes up imo...

Honestly, with Chrom being playable, a Final Smash, and a Mii costume, I don't think we can make any hard rules anymore. I think we can safely assume none of the five season pass characters will be Assist Trophies, however.

But if they do a second season pass? Who knows then.

 

[LostEggs]

Wave two will happen. There's zero chance the first wave will do poorly. Maybe some assists like Issac, Shadow, and Black Knight could get the upgrade. If Chrom can exists as a FS and character anything is possible.

 

[Xevious 1]

I am not too keen on more FE characters, nothing against the series or characters like Corrin (who I like). But Black Knight looks bad ass as f*** and I would love to see him playable.

 

[LuigiRB]

Some footage of his AT in action. He has a double jump, can teleport (Warp Powder?) and is not as resistant to attack as shown in the Direct (if timestamp doesn't work go to 17:08).
https://youtu.be/NkkgAnMLFHw?t=1028

"Black Knight is too heavy to double jump"

 

[LostEggs]

"Black Knight is too heavy to double jump"

Jesus that's a huge double jump
Edit* he has a back air, a teleport, and he can footstool. Can any other assists footstool? God, he screams unfinished fighter. Maybe he'll be wave two DLC, or maybe there will be surprise DLC we don't know of.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

Jesus that's a huge double jump
Edit* he has a back air, a teleport, and he can footstool. Can any other assists footstool? God, he screams unfinished fighter. Maybe he'll be wave two DLC, or maybe there will be surprise DLC we don't know of.

I seem to recall people saying Knuckles can airdodge as well. They put more work into these guys than they needed to. I feel like Black Knight missed the mark and got turned into an AT so the work wouldn't go to waste. Hopefully the modding community will give us deeper insight and maybe bring him up to playable status.

 

[Machete]

Problem with Black Knight is that he's got a lot of barriers of entry now. First of, he needs the dream of ATs upgrading to playable, and then he needs to compete with a ton of popular Assist Trophies. Hell, even just within Fire Emblem, he's got Lyn and Tiki as competition, and without it, he still has Waluigi, Isaac, Skull Kid, Midna, Alucard, Shadow, Zero, Spring-Man... it just feels like he's screwed.

Which makes Chrom being playable perhaps my biggest disappointment in Ultimate so far. Chrom seems rushed to the point of him still being Robin's Final Smash and victory pose, he adds nothing in terms of looks, nor represents a new game, nor offers particularly much in terms of gameplay being the fourth Marth. Black Knight as an Ike echo would've been so much better, but nope.

At least he'll always be on Dark Samus' place of being capable of echoing a super popular character, which means he'll always be a possibility when thinking of new echoes. Which will make the comparison to their respective ATs funnier, but still. I much prefer a somewhat inaccurate echo than an accurate AT.

 

[CrimsonFlash]

Problem with Black Knight is that he's got a lot of barriers of entry now. First of, he needs the dream of ATs upgrading to playable, and then he needs to compete with a ton of popular Assist Trophies. Hell, even just within Fire Emblem, he's got Lyn and Tiki as competition, and without it, he still has Waluigi, Isaac, Skull Kid, Midna, Alucard, Shadow, Zero, Spring-Man... it just feels like he's screwed.

Which makes Chrom being playable perhaps my biggest disappointment in Ultimate so far. Chrom seems rushed to the point of him still being Robin's Final Smash and victory pose, he adds nothing in terms of looks, nor represents a new game, nor offers particularly much in terms of gameplay being the fourth Marth. Black Knight as an Ike echo would've been so much better, but nope.

At least he'll always be on Dark Samus' place of being capable of echoing a super popular character, which means he'll always be a possibility when thinking of new echoes. Which will make the comparison to their respective ATs funnier, but still. I much prefer a somewhat inaccurate echo than an accurate AT.

so, wait chrom is still robin's final smash?

I think this could be a point in the favor of assists being playable, we will see way more final smashes than the same assist popping up.

alright, feel free to ignore this as desperate rambling if you want to, because I'm going to go into some speculation, what if this could be part of the plan, sakurai clearly wanted to satisfy everyone at launch, he redid isaac, so it is obvious that he used the ballot to decide assists too, but what if sakurai decided to make characters assists at launch to have the characters be present for their fans and have resources present for a promotion in the future, there is very little to use outside of third parties now for dlc fighters and the only third parties that everyone wants are really expensive (there is no way we get banjo, geno and sora, maybe one but not all), shoot sakurai talked about not wanting to close doors while talking about dlc, so why close all these doors which plenty of people would have been very disappointed about. I know that sakurai is as short sighted as they come, ultimate is the epitome of that, but I think that it could still happen.

I am curious if anyone has heard sakurai say that an assist cannot be playable in the same game.

 

[LostEggs]

so, wait chrom is still robin's final smash?

I think this could be a point in the favor of assists being playable, we will see way more final smashes than the same assist popping up.

alright, feel free to ignore this as desperate rambling if you want to, because I'm going to go into some speculation, what if this could be part of the plan, sakurai clearly wanted to satisfy everyone at launch, he redid isaac, so it is obvious that he used the ballot to decide assists too, but what if sakurai decided to make characters assists at launch to have the characters be present for their fans and have resources present for a promotion in the future, there is very little to use outside of third parties now for dlc fighters and the only third parties that everyone wants are really expensive (there is no way we get banjo, geno and sora, maybe one but not all), shoot sakurai talked about not wanting to close doors while talking about dlc, so why close all these doors which plenty of people would have been very disappointed about. I know that sakurai is as short sighted as they come, ultimate is the epitome of that, but I think that it could still happen.

I am curious if anyone has heard sakurai say that an assist cannot be playable in the same game.

I don't recall Sakurai saying AT'sbeing hard deconfirmations. I think wave 1 DLC will focus on Third parties. And wave two may be a sort of "consolation" wave, consisting of characters who were AT's. I think this may be the case due to the assists have particular game entries describing which game they came from, and not recurring entries. My guess for the "consolation" wave is 8 characters consisting of popular/important AT's. I'd hazard Black Knight, Springman, Skull Kid, Alucard, Shadow, Issac (could be his Dark Dawn self), possibly Lyn or Tiki (but not both), and either Takamaru or Waluigi. And I think the inevitable Third wave is where Sakurai will intend to really wow everyone. Mind you this is just all guesswork/theories, but considering Nintendo wants money and this entry is gonna pull in *A LOT* of money I do believe there will be three waves of DLC at minimum.

 

[Cabbagehead]

(I'd like to think Ashley is on that list of promotable ATs...)

Yeah, I don't wanna get my hopes up, but Chrom really opens up the door to bring everyone's favorite fan-made rule crashing down. And that's fine with me, considering how many perfectly good playable candidates got the short end of the stick in this game.

 

[Oasis_S]

Though it's a bit bittersweet, it was good to see Black Knight make the cut as an Assist Trophy. Somehow, I don't think I ever considered he'd become an Assist Trophy, so it was neat seeing him in at all, lol.

I wonder if he'll have a spirit battle? Would you fight the assist? would you fight black Ike? would you fight the Mii costume?

 

[Barbasol]

It's nice to see him as an Assist Trophy. I'm a bit disappointed because I always thought he would be a great addition, but that was back when we thought there would be a good Heroes vs. villains showdown rather than the Event Match style of Spirits mode.

I don't think it's very realistic to ask for any of the Assist Trophies to be upgraded. There's no development sense to create the ATs and then upgrade them later. It goes for Black Knight just like Isaac and Shadow, don't wait up for them - it'll just lead to disappointment.

I am glad we got AT rather than nothing. He looks really cool.

 

[Sigran101]

Black Knight is confirmed to be a profile icon for your switch alongside the game. I for one will never change my icon again.