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The Jet-Black General, Black Knight, Echoes into Smash

Diddy Kong

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You know, it really helps that Fire Emblem hasn't had a unique newcomer yet. With Chrom as a Echo, and Zelgius as a semi-clone, I think the franchise might be good for a couple of upcoming years. Or when Three Houses gets it's DLC character, which is a thing I personally expect down the line honestly.
 

MasterOfKnees

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Aight guys, let's do this again. What chances do y'all give Black Knight now? I'm still on my 70%, but I want to believe he'll be a semi-clone instead of an echo
I'm not confident he's happening tbh, but the fact that he has a chance at all is very exciting.
 

Machete

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I, too, give him a middling chance. Chrom is both a blessing (why is he not an Ike echo?) and a curse (are we really going to get two Fire Emblem characters?). He's the most popular Fire Emblem villain, sure, but his competition is extremely popular. His Mii costume and trophies show that Sakurai sees him as iconic (he even shares K.Rool's honor of a new Mii costume rather than just reused assets), but lots of Mii costumes didn't make the jump to playable.

I give him about 30%. I'd bump it up to 50% if Spirits is indeed a story mode. I can't see them not adding the most obvious and echoest Fire Emblem villain in a story mode with 7 Fire Emblem characters in the side of good. But I'd get worried if Robin's Final Smash has anything to do with Grima.
 

Arsenal234

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Chrom is not an Ike echo because it makes no sense to make him an Ike echo. ALL echos we have seen have the same weight, speed, power, and range. Chrom shares none of this with Ike. Ike's weight, speed, power, and range are all attributed to him using a very heavy two handed sword. Chrom uses a one handed sword. It would make no sense for Chrom to be as powerful as Ike, as slow as Ike, as heavy as Ike, or have the same range as Ike. Chrom's Falchion is considerably shorter than Ike's Ragnel, and seeing as Lucina is using the exact same Falchion as Chrom there is no way Sakurai can justify changing its size.

Again every echo we have seen has had the same stats (Weight, Speed, Power, and Range) as the character they echo. Echo fighters are supposed to be easy additions, and no echo fighter we have seen has had those stats changed. Lucina only got her sword's attributes changed from Marth's, but they still share the same stats everywhere else with Marth being slightly taller. Chrom echoing Ike would be completely forced. I know Robin's Palutena guidance compares Chrom to Ike, but even Sakurai knew that making Chrom echo Ike would be pushing it. I saw Chrom as a Roy echo three miles away as it made much more sense. Roy is the middle ground between Marth and Ike, and fits Chrom well. I know people still think Roy and Marth are the same, but Roy has moves that Marth does not (about six or seven). In my opinion that more than justifies Roy getting his own echo.
 

FlintIke

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Hey guys glad to see that people started to support my favorite FE villain from my favorite FE games <3

I am actually glad that Isabelle got confirmed since I am somehow rly hopeful now that BK will also be a unique newcomer instead of an Echo Fighter for Ike.
Either way I just hope that FE will get its well deserved iconic villain so I can be somewhat happy with the Fire Emblem Roster for my part.
 

Cereal Bawks

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I think most people were speculating that instead of doing semi clones they would just pump out as many echoes as possible. Like, when people didn't even dare to predict that freaking Dixie will be a semi clone they sure as hell wouldn't do it with Black Knight.
That's pretty silly
 

CrimsonFlash

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How is everyone feeling about Black Knight's current chances? I think his main competition is Shadow, Ken, Dixie Kong, Impa, and Medusa. Honestly, it's hard to imagine BK getting in over most of those. The Mii costume helps. I'm over all not feeling too confident unless there are a lot of echoes left.
For me his odds are a respectable 63%, and I would even be so bold as to say if DLC is a thing (and I see no good reason for it not to be), I would put his DLC odds at 87%, the reason why is because as DLC, Sakurai has the hindsight of heroes Black knight and zelgius to consider, two units who are known for being arena staples (with the latter being arguably the best sword user in heroes, seriously though warping up to 3 spaces when above 80% hp, armor stats, a special that ignores 80% of defense, and innate distant counter borders on being broken)

his mii fighter costume says so much to me, the mear fact that they made brand new assets speaks volumes about the desire to add him, we had the black knight trophy and PoR/RD models to work with and if that was too old to use effectively, why bother outside of a real interest to add him or demand just being high enough, navarre makes more sense to add as a mii fighter costume due to the marth relation and being the original fire emblem swordmaster, or even lyn for that matter (though lyn seems to get the shaft in smash bros quite a bit these days, despite being more popular than lucina amongst core fans at least).

castle siege is odd and certainly could point to something, but equally could be an oversight on the part of a rogue developer, so maybe, maybe not.

chrom I also agree with some that he isn't a 1:1 Ike (and probably wouldn't work anyways, I will argue that the awakening falchion seems way larger than shadow dragon and chrom's style is way heavier than marth, but as a roy echo he gets a bunch of moves which need extra effects but don't have them), hairmythe said that chrom is an echo, I think this is because chrom just doesn't have enough unique traits to make him work as a semi clone whereas isabelle is an excuse to cram in some more animal crossing references like the fishing rod or the different lloyd.

another thing that I noticed was that in the reveal of chrom, they explicitly stated that chrom was popular in japan specifically, this detail seemed weird to me and thinking on it, I always found that the black knight seems to be more popular in the west (mostly due to darth vader parallels and our love for villians), this also could be a point in his favor for general reach.

Heroes vs. Villains also makes sense to help his odds.

then there is boss potential, I don't see it, he is too small to be a boss and his moves lack the flash or distinctiveness to be a boss, the only real solution would be to size him up, but that would be forced, and also cut off any DLC possibilities, ridley fans were not OK with a boss, because they want to use him and see him more often, I see no reason to see it any differently for the black knight. also, if we need a fire emblem boss, medeus, big scary dragon is a better representation of fire emblem bosses and was the original climactic fire emblem boss, he also has size which is vague enough to make whatever you need it to be and extra garnef shenanigans are also possible if you want some extra stand out moves. the point is Black Knight would be a bad boss in comparison to other options from fire emblem, due to being small, having easy to dodge hitboxes, and having too little flash to really work as a boss (epic in fire emblem and in theory, but in practice, there is very little to work with, you have seen his basic attack right? slow over the head attack isn't a good boss move due to being easy to respond to), not to mention, a real slap in the face to those who want him to be playable (see reactions to pyrosphere), I want him playable not "in the game" or "better than nothing", I rather see his mii fighter costume make a dramatic return than that, because at least I can use that.

(I liked Pyrosphere though, I don't care about the weirdness having tiny ridley next to boss ridley, those were fun boss mechanics that I would like to see return)

edit: two other things that I noticed, in the mural on the website, Ike seems to be looking to his left, now, I don't think we can say anything definitive quite yet, but if I was going to add the black knight to smash, I would put him to Ike's left, between him and bowser, you can say that he is trying to took at the audience, but it looks like he is looking further to his left than to just look at the audience.

second, Ike's posture is straighter than previous games, this could also point to the black knight who stands much straighter generally, again, nothing definitive, but still something that I can see them changing if he was intended as a echo who needs to mostly be the same as the original, they also could just be wanting Ike to be more like a middle ground between PoR and RD.
 
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Knight Dude

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I think he has a bit of a shot, He's certainly the most popular FE villain, but I don't know if his popularity exploded like Chrom's did. Either way, I like him. He's a cool looking character. He may be another Blue Haired Anime Swordsman, but the helmet's got that covered...literally.

I would hope he's more of a semiclone, as he could use something like the Wishblade as a special, and he uses Warp like Meta Knight's Down B would, but with less mobility.

One last thing, maybe give him a crimson red effect on Alondite, like Path of Radiance, to stand out more from Radiant Dawn making both Ragnell and Alondite use the same Blue Flame effect.
 

Machete

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SSB4 Roy Pharae

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Thoughts on this? https://smashboards.com/threads/heres-everything.458565/

For reference, here are the unconfirmed characters on the list

Incineroar
Vault Boy
Steve from Minecraft
Mach Rider
Shadow ε
Dixie
Black Knight ε
Geno
Ken ε
Black Shadow ε
I'd be really fine with this honestly, though more likely not being true.

It's interesting how the echo choices line up with Mimique's on Twitter, with the exception of Dixie Kong who may get the semi-clone treatment like Isabelle did. https://twitter.com/MimiqueVEVO/status/1031717320513662976

I'll admit I was never aware of all of the things surrounding Black Knight not even in the first time watching the August Direct. It's like Sakurai could have just had his Mii costume based on trophy assets and left the general who looks like him sitting on the throne instead of a Begnion soldier, but he didn't.

If Black Knight is playable, I would be very happy for him and so eager to play him along with King K. Rool and Black Shadow. I do recall the part on that certain someone who is strong on Fire Emblem remixes, we've yet to see whether a remix of "Unstoppable Destiny" is out there. I'd hope he has a different victory theme (and Black Shadow) like King K. Rool and Ridley.
 

Chihiro Fujisaki

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sign me up for this support thread. i loved path of radiance, radiant dawn not as much but still love it quite a bit. seeing my favorite fe villain get in as a playable character would be awesome.
 

LostEggs

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Thoughts on this? https://smashboards.com/threads/heres-everything.458565/

For reference, here are the unconfirmed characters on the list

Incineroar
Vault Boy
Steve from Minecraft
Mach Rider
Shadow ε
Dixie
Black Knight ε
Geno
Ken ε
Black Shadow ε
Well, u/Senjougahara_Hitagi the guy who accurately leaked Samurai Showdown leaked Steve. This same leaker knows Vergeben and received his blessings. Granted it could be just a coincidence, but it does coincide with the leak. Guess we will probably know by the time of October 1st if it's legit or BS.
 

CrimsonFlash

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I'd be really fine with this honestly, though more likely not being true.

It's interesting how the echo choices line up with Mimique's on Twitter, with the exception of Dixie Kong who may get the semi-clone treatment like Isabelle did. https://twitter.com/MimiqueVEVO/status/1031717320513662976

I'll admit I was never aware of all of the things surrounding Black Knight not even in the first time watching the August Direct. It's like Sakurai could have just had his Mii costume based on trophy assets and left the general who looks like him sitting on the throne instead of a Begnion soldier, but he didn't.

If Black Knight is playable, I would be very happy for him and so eager to play him along with King K. Rool and Black Shadow. I do recall the part on that certain someone who is strong on Fire Emblem remixes, we've yet to see whether a remix of "Unstoppable Destiny" is out there. I'd hope he has a different victory theme (and Black Shadow) like King K. Rool and Ridley.
I don't really think any radiant dawn music needs to be remixed, unstoppable destiny is already a great piece and I don't know if it can be improved.

same with eternal bond, but on the topic of fire emblem music, I hope they keep the original names rather than change them, Ike's theme is just an aggravating name, especially when they have id(purpose) not being changed.
Well, u/Senjougahara_Hitagi the guy who accurately leaked Samurai Showdown leaked Steve. This same leaker knows Vergeben and received his blessings. Granted it could be just a coincidence, but it does coincide with the leak. Guess we will probably know by the time of October 1st if it's legit or BS.
not the 1st, he said that printing starts in the first week, I'd say we can call it fake after the 14th, when we know for a fact that he should have it by then.


on a different topic, I noticed that for character alts that reference characters, the only ones that have been removed because of a new inclusion, are the ones where the character became an echo fighter, this could mean that the black knight may be unique if included.

Of course I think you can also argue that said alts were only there as compensation for the characters not being present, and there were other better alts that could be added now that we have more room, samus didn't really need a dark samus alt, no one picks peach's daisy alt because it suits peach and Ike's chrom alt has literally nothing to do with Ike, meanwhile the black knight and greil alts are representative of the two most important figures in the character's life so it's hard to say, just a thing I noticed.

I will also say that the black knight being unique wouldn't kill the prima leak, we don't know about the details that the leaker has, he may just be assuming that he is an echo.

I also don't mind vault boy being in smash, think of him as you would mr game and watch and the moveset makes itself.
 

Machete

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Ike's Black Knight "alt" is not a big deal to Black Knight's chances. It gives him a similar tint but it doesn't look anything close to him. Also keep in mind Pit's black costume now has matching black wings, which makes him look far more similar to Dark Pit than Ike could conceivably do to Black Knight. It's a nice little nod and a good color, but it's nothing like Samus' Dark Samus alt, that would look basically the same. Even if they had the exact same palette, the armor would make them stand out from each other.
 

LostEggs

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I don't really think any radiant dawn music needs to be remixed, unstoppable destiny is already a great piece and I don't know if it can be improved.

same with eternal bond, but on the topic of fire emblem music, I hope they keep the original names rather than change them, Ike's theme is just an aggravating name, especially when they have id(purpose) not being changed.


not the 1st, he said that printing starts in the first week, I'd say we can call it fake after the 14th, when we know for a fact that he should have it by then.


on a different topic, I noticed that for character alts that reference characters, the only ones that have been removed because of a new inclusion, are the ones where the character became an echo fighter, this could mean that the black knight may be unique if included.

Of course I think you can also argue that said alts were only there as compensation for the characters not being present, and there were other better alts that could be added now that we have more room, samus didn't really need a dark samus alt, no one picks peach's daisy alt because it suits peach and Ike's chrom alt has literally nothing to do with Ike, meanwhile the black knight and greil alts are representative of the two most important figures in the character's life so it's hard to say, just a thing I noticed.

I will also say that the black knight being unique wouldn't kill the prima leak, we don't know about the details that the leaker has, he may just be assuming that he is an echo.

I also don't mind vault boy being in smash, think of him as you would mr game and watch and the moveset makes itself.
Iirc Fox still has his Wolf color and Kirby has a Meta Knight color too.
 

Aeon Lupin

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I don't really think any radiant dawn music needs to be remixed, unstoppable destiny is already a great piece and I don't know if it can be improved.

same with eternal bond, but on the topic of fire emblem music, I hope they keep the original names rather than change them, Ike's theme is just an aggravating name, especially when they have id(purpose) not being changed.


not the 1st, he said that printing starts in the first week, I'd say we can call it fake after the 14th, when we know for a fact that he should have it by then.


on a different topic, I noticed that for character alts that reference characters, the only ones that have been removed because of a new inclusion, are the ones where the character became an echo fighter, this could mean that the black knight may be unique if included.

Of course I think you can also argue that said alts were only there as compensation for the characters not being present, and there were other better alts that could be added now that we have more room, samus didn't really need a dark samus alt, no one picks peach's daisy alt because it suits peach and Ike's chrom alt has literally nothing to do with Ike, meanwhile the black knight and greil alts are representative of the two most important figures in the character's life so it's hard to say, just a thing I noticed.

I will also say that the black knight being unique wouldn't kill the prima leak, we don't know about the details that the leaker has, he may just be assuming that he is an echo.

I also don't mind vault boy being in smash, think of him as you would mr game and watch and the moveset makes itself.
Another thing is that the colors were removed because from a distance, Daisy/Peach, Samus/Dark Samus and Ike/Chrom would blend together. The Black Knight, if we're to assume he's an echo, has a vastly different silhouette and design from Ike, that you wouldn't get mixed up.
 

LostEggs

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Here's a thought, ya'll know how Rathalos is a assist and boss right? What if Black Knight was a boss and a fighter? I mean thinking on this logically, wouldn't the main bosses of say Zelda or Mario be Bowser and Ganondorf? So who's to say Black Knight wouldn't be like Rathalos, but instead of an assist he's both boss and fighter?
 

Michael the Spikester

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Here's a thought, ya'll know how Rathalos is a assist and boss right? What if Black Knight was a boss and a fighter? I mean thinking on this logically, wouldn't the main bosses of say Zelda or Mario be Bowser and Ganondorf? So who's to say Black Knight wouldn't be like Rathalos, but instead of an assist he's both boss and fighter?
Couldn't that also apply to the other playable villains too?
 
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LostEggs

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Couldn't that also apply to the other playable villains too?
That's why I brought up Bowser and Ganondorf, I'm certain that the other playable vilians would be in the same boat. Plus it'd be weird if FE which grosses 400 million being the only major franchise to not have a vilian/rival would be weird.
 
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CrimsonFlash

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Ike's Black Knight "alt" is not a big deal to Black Knight's chances. It gives him a similar tint but it doesn't look anything close to him. Also keep in mind Pit's black costume now has matching black wings, which makes him look far more similar to Dark Pit than Ike could conceivably do to Black Knight. It's a nice little nod and a good color, but it's nothing like Samus' Dark Samus alt, that would look basically the same. Even if they had the exact same palette, the armor would make them stand out from each other.
oh, that is a good point, I have been so used to dark pit not being an echo that I must've forgotten.

I was never implying that it won't or couldn't happen, just that his odds as a unique fighter may be raised by the alt still being present

Another thing is that the colors were removed because from a distance, Daisy/Peach, Samus/Dark Samus and Ike/Chrom would blend together. The Black Knight, if we're to assume he's an echo, has a vastly different silhouette and design from Ike, that you wouldn't get mixed up.
this is an excellent point that I admit I did not consider

Iirc Fox still has his Wolf color and Kirby has a Meta Knight color too.
even though it seems kind of pointless now, my theory exclusively used echoes, so if an alt referenced a character and that character was added as an echo the alt would be removed due to it being redundant, this would exclude semi clones like wolf and kirby, of course this was kind of debunked due to pit's dark pit alt still existing and them making it even closer to dark pit, so I think they are just doing what feels the most fitting, samus' dark samus alt may be confusing at faster speeds due to the similar general shape, same with daisy and peach, black knight makes way more sense than chrom for an Ike alt.
 

Sigran101

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Here's a thought, ya'll know how Rathalos is a assist and boss right? What if Black Knight was a boss and a fighter? I mean thinking on this logically, wouldn't the main bosses of say Zelda or Mario be Bowser and Ganondorf? So who's to say Black Knight wouldn't be like Rathalos, but instead of an assist he's both boss and fighter?
I don't think there's any reason for him to be a boss though. If we're getting a fire emblem boss it should definitely be medeus. If not Medeus then some other giant dragon or demon rather than just a human swordsman. If Black Knight is anything more than before I think he'll either be an echo or an assist trophy
 

FlintIke

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I kinda have a problem with him being a "Boss" character like... correct me if I am wrong but weren't all the bosses throughout the smash bros series like gigantic? Even Dracula and Rathalos are currently, so I don't know how Black Knight can fulfill that role since he is about the same size as Greil/RD Ike.
 

SSB4 Roy Pharae

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Some suggest he'd be a boss mainly because of the heavy armor he wears when he is already stated in Ike's games to be pretty fast and even shares Ike's style due to being taught by Greil. That one Castle Siege clip of Richter reminds me of the Boxing Ring from E3 2013 being analyzed, way before Little Mac's confirmed playable status from Assist Trophy. I see something like that likely to happen instead of another Pyrosphere Ridley situation.

The bosses they've used so far were all massive in size and monstrous. And they were pretty intimidating not just in looks but also what they can do to make a good boss battle. Look at the bosses in Subspace Emissary plus Dracula and Rathalos and then look at Black Knight, he lacks a number of things that bosses in Smash had that made them stand out.

He's really a man wearing heavy armor, and proven to be fast. I don't see a human-sized boss happening unless it was someone like Porky in his mech. The thought of seeing him without his helmet and bigger than Ridley would be even more off than it is.
 

LuigiRB

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I mean, why waste a potential new fighter to make a boss when the series he comes from has gigantic dragons and demons that would be more interesting?
People saying that he should be a boss just don't want other Fire Emblem characters.
There's no reason why he should be a boss instead of a playable fighter.
 

FlintIke

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Exactly! Rly the worst case scenario would be an Assist Trophy imo but yeah, since FE "only" got an Echo, sry if this sounds stupid because of so many FE characters, I rly think they will at least get there most iconic villain too so we can keep both the hero sides and the villain sides rly fresh and updated.

And like you guys said, I personally think it would be total waste not to give a spot to our iconic General here.


And sry if I am kinda theory-crafting here, but I had an assumption since I saw all the things about BK going missing:

I personally think Sakurai might have planned another FE Newcomer (not an Echo!) from the very start and had to choose between Lyndis as most popular Female FE character and our BK over here for the villain spot since 2 unique FE characters would probably be an overkill. And I think Sakurai might have selected BK which is why Lyn is still an Assist Trophy and the that BK might actually end up being playable so we can have another villain.
 
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LostEggs

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I mean, ever since Melee we've gotten at least 1 proper new comer for FE in Smash. We've only gotten one echo, Sakurai may give Black Knight the Isabele treatment. And Black Knight will be the FE new comer proper.
 

StarLight42

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Black Knight is a lock. The fact that this guy barely shows up on fake leaks baffles me. His chances are so high that it's not even funny.

Think about it...

No Black Knight in Castle Siege anymore.
Chrom is the closest he can be to Ike without being Ike's echo.
FE still does not have a villain rep despite having seven characters.
Sakurai's bias.

I can smell the salt already from eight Fire Emblem characters, but really Black Knight deserves to be in and Ike needs an echo.
 

Michael the Spikester

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Didn't people point out that was just an standard general in the background and had been always red which is now viable due to enhanced HD?
 

Machete

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Didn't people point out that was just an standard general in the background and had been always red which is now viable due to enhanced HD?
iirc, he had Black Knight's color scheme in 4 despite having a different armor. In Brawl and in Ultimate he's got red armor, though.
 

Diddy Kong

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So in Fire Emblem Heroes, my Vanguard Ike has more defence and less speed than my Black Knight. :rolleyes: Why didn't IS get this right?
 

Sigran101

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The more I think about it the more I think Black Knight being a semi clone is a slight possibility. I'd picture him as more of a falco than a wolf/Isabelle though. But if Sakurai put a lot of priority into adding villains and for some reason didn't want a major series to have an echo as its only villain, then it could possibly happen. I still think he'll be an echo or an assist trophy, but I'd be super stoked if he was a semi clone.

Edit: what did BK get on rate their chances? It doesn't say as far as I can tell.
 
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Aeon Lupin

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The more I think about it the more I think Black Knight being a semi clone is a slight possibility. I'd picture him as more of a falco than a wolf/Isabelle though. But if Sakurai put a lot of priority into adding villains and for some reason didn't want a major series to have an echo as its only villain, then it could possibly happen. I still think he'll be an echo or an assist trophy, but I'd be super stoked if he was a semi clone.

Edit: what did BK get on rate their chances? It doesn't say as far as I can tell.
Regardless, I'm confident the Castle Siege recolor means some kind of bigger role for Black Knight. Playable or not.
 

Sigran101

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Regardless, I'm confident the Castle Siege recolor means some kind of bigger role for Black Knight. Playable or not.
I've honestly gone back and forth on that part myself. While it's suspicious that the general was changed to a more generic one, it wasn't actually black knight to begin with. If the BK lookalike was a bigger part of the stage, I'd say it absolutely means a bigger role for BK. But the lookalike was so far back that most people never even noticed he was there. If BK is playable, I'd expect a BK cameo on a stage to be removed just because for the sake of not having him technically on the stage twice. However the only reason for a generic soldier that looks like him to be removed would be to avoid confusion during a match, and I can't possibly imagine the general barely visable all the way at the back could confuse anyone in a match. I still think he's likely to be playable, but I'm not sure how much the castle siege stage means.
 

Aeon Lupin

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I've honestly gone back and forth on that part myself. While it's suspicious that the general was changed to a more generic one, it wasn't actually black knight to begin with. If the BK lookalike was a bigger part of the stage, I'd say it absolutely means a bigger role for BK. But the lookalike was so far back that most people never even noticed he was there. If BK is playable, I'd expect a BK cameo on a stage to be removed just because for the sake of not having him technically on the stage twice. However the only reason for a generic soldier that looks like him to be removed would be to avoid confusion during a match, and I can't possibly imagine the general barely visable all the way at the back could confuse anyone in a match. I still think he's likely to be playable, but I'm not sure how much the castle siege stage means.
They still bothered to change it. And while the general's design wasn't the BK's specifically, it clearly was trying to invoke him.
 
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