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The Ike Match-Up Ratio Topic

#HBC | Ryker

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Saw no Q&A and would rather not compete with the social thread. Ike is a character I enjoy playing and am striving to improve with, but have very little reason to use in tournament aside from personal satisfaction because I play Falco who is a character that is both better as a character and based on personal skill. That being said, I do get a chance for to give my Ike some time on the front lines because I VASTLY prefer Ike to Falco in the ICs MU. I know the basics and play a very boot camp Ike. Can someone walk me through this MU with a little more in-depth answer than "don't get grabbed"?

I'm going to a tourney this weekend in Atlanta, but I don't think the ICs that's giving me trouble will be there and I do not think the other IC that exists in my region is going either. However, I may get a chance to play some matches with the latter around 4th of July. Would you be able to make it worth my while to go to the effort of getting a video up?

Also, for the record, Ike is probably a horrendous pick seeing as the IC I'm worried about plays D3 as well, but IDGaF. I'll just have to champion through that blind pick game 1.
 

XLR8TION

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I can't really give a real answer here, but I guess just space out ICs with jab, nair etc.
 

Nysyarc

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Can someone walk me through this MU with a little more in-depth answer than "don't get grabbed"?
Well, that is what the MU mostly comes down to, but Ike has some decent ways to accomplish that.

Be careful with Jab on shield, be ready to immediately cancel your first Jab and retreat if the ICs shield it. In most cases though, Jab is a useful gtfo tool in this MU and should be used to punish almost every opportunity you get. Finish all three hits of the Jab combo and it will sometimes send Nana and Popo in opposite directions depending on the player's SDI.

Be very careful when spacing Nair and Fair. Make sure to always be conscious of your spacing and only throw out either of them if the tip of your sword will hit the ICs. Do not Dash Attack as an approach and try to avoid using it to punish as well. When going for an Usmash, be sure to always reverse it so the back end hits the ICs. If they shield it, the push back and surprisingly low IASA frames should allow you to either pivot and Jab before they can grab you, or retreat safely.

Go for grabs of your own. I cannot stress this enough. They will likely be shielding a lot to bait attacks that they can punish with a shield grab, but if you read that and get a grab yourself it can be a stock if you play your cards right:

As soon as you get a grab, pummel once to knock back the opposite Climber, and then Bthrow -> DA (practice this combo now if you're not fully confident in pulling it off, buffer the DA so it comes out at the earliest frame after Bthrow) to get the one you grabbed separated. If you grabbed and threw Popo, charge an Fsmash for Nana who will come waltzing right into it and get KOd at 40% or less. If you threw Nana, edge guard her with aerials and keep Popo on the stage with Jabs and grabs.

Once they're down to a single Climber, space Nairs and Fairs carefully, be ready for the Squall Hammer recovery and punish it. If you play safe you can pretty effortlessly take out a lone Ice Climber without even getting hit, so your primary objective when there are two of them is to bring them down to one.

You shouldn't have to worry about them gimping you. They don't have enough disjoint to get through Aether on any moves that could possibly prevent you from recovering. If they get hit by Aether it could end up separating them, so if they're smart they'll just let you get back to the ledge without a fuss.


Also, for the record, Ike is probably a horrendous pick seeing as the IC I'm worried about plays D3 as well, but IDGaF. I'll just have to champion through that blind pick game 1.
The Ike vs DDD MU isn't actually that bad in my opinion. Obviously Falco would be a better choice, but Ike can hold his own against DDD. Just don't Jab his shield or try to punish a spot-dodge, space your Fairs well and his slow ground speed means he won't be able to punish. Careful with Nairs though, he can usually shield grab those even if spaced well. Edge-guard aggressively, his recovery is bad and Ike can destroy it. Keep him off-stage with Fairs and Bairs, surprise him with walk-off aerials and make absolute sure you punish his upB every time he uses it.

:248:
 

Ussi

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SoPo can still CG Ike to 80% with dthrow if he grabs you at low % (or just CG to the ledge to dtilt)
Jab will get shield grabbed if you don't hit with it (grab armor is so gay)
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Get used to canceling Jab1 on reaction to their shield so I can get out.
Be good at spacing (herp derp).
Throw is good as Ike's throw animations are short and his grab is good given ICs' tendency to shield.
BThrow to dash attack is really good at separating them.
When they are separated, utilize your ability to kill Nana off fairly easily and still be able to keep an eye on Popo.
Careful with Sopo. Should be able to paste him, but he can still make you hate life.
Save your jump if you get Sopo chain grabbed.
Aether can get you to the ledge without a big deal.
"Don't get grabbed."


Talk to me about how to go about getting off the ledge without getting grabbed and anything other than Bthrow->Dash Attack that can easily separate them. A nair into an aerial or a jab3? I mean, any move can theoretically get it done if it only hits one and I can capitalize that, but is there any thing else I should be looking for?

Talk to me about neutrals and CPs assuming unity stagelist.
 

Nysyarc

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SoPo can still CG Ike to 80% with dthrow if he grabs you at low % (or just CG to the ledge to dtilt)
Jab will get shield grabbed if you don't hit with it (grab armor is so gay)
The timing becomes pretty strict so most can't do it to 80%, and it also depends how fresh Dthrow is at higher percents. Plus obviously the length of the stage will end it. However, without Nana around to de-synch for longer range punishes, it is much more difficult for Sopo to get a grab on you if you're spacing is even moderately decent. He can still grab your Jab OoS but your Nair, Bair and Fair are all 100% safe when spaced.

Talk to me about how to go about getting off the ledge without getting grabbed and anything other than Bthrow->Dash Attack that can easily separate them. A nair into an aerial or a jab3? I mean, any move can theoretically get it done if it only hits one and I can capitalize that, but is there any thing else I should be looking for?
Returning from the ledge, the safest thing to do is to plank with Aether to force them back and give yourself some space (remember that you won't re-grab the ledge after doing it five times in a row without landing on-stage), then either jump from the ledge or drop down and double-jump right up onto the stage. Never roll to get up, and even regular stand-up is risky. Your ledge attack under 100% isn't bad but I wouldn't recommend it; definitely stick to dropping down and double-jumping when you're over 100%.

Bthrow -> DA is the only 100% reliable method. Like I said, sometimes Jab 3 can separate them based on SDI, so make sure to punish with either Jabs or a grab whenever possible. You can try using Counter against their Squall Hammer which may send them off in different directions and is pretty safe anyway; even if you whiff, their animation's length will prevent them from punishing you. I wouldn't recommend using Counter for anything else in this MU though.

A quick Bair can also be good if you have them slightly separated already from a Nair, Jab 3, Utilt or something. Basically, Bair's hitbox extends out a bit in front of Ike and quite a ways behind him, with either extreme of the hitbox sending opponents in opposite directions. So if they're just slightly separated and above your head, hop up between them and whip out a Bair.


Talk to me about neutrals and CPs assuming unity stagelist.
Neutrals, you definitely want to be on Battlefield and maybe Smashville. Both have platforms and ledges that you can Aether underneath for ease of recovery and getting back onto the stage. Downside is that they're flat and the main stages are static so easy chain-grabbing.

Castle Siege would be okay, just do your best to avoid them during the second transition. Lylat Cruise I have personal bias against but I imagine it's not too bad in this MU. Yoshi's Island I don't think would be a good choice, the platform is hard to work with and in general the stage doesn't have any real benefits for Ike.

PS1... meh. You can Aether under the ledge here so there's that, and the transitions aren't bad for avoiding grabs. A few walls you can take advantage of if you get them down to just Sopo. I don't really know how good ICs are on this stage so for me it would be mainly about how comfortable I feel on it.

FD is an obvious strike, don't want to end up here against either ICs or DDD. PS1 and Castle Siege should both go as well if you're worried about a pocket DDD pick for match 1.

As for counter-picks... ban FD, as long as you're not planning on switching to Falco. If you are... I don't know, ban a stage you don't like, lol. Halberd isn't too great, nothing special. Brinstar, if you're comfortable on it, would be a solid CP against either ICs or DDD. Ike can really control the stage well and take advantage of certain aspects on Brinstar (like sliding on the little slopes to retreat Aether). The platforms are nicely positioned for sharking too.

Delfino would be okay against the ICs, and good against DDD as long as you're careful about the few walk-off transitions. Plenty of platforms, transitions that can mess up a chain grab in progress, water (which is nice while recovering or trapping opponents for an easy KO), and you can also abuse the walk-offs with Bthrow -> DA if you're ballsy enough.

PS2 wouldn't actually be too bad against either DDD or ICs. Main stage you can Aether under the ledge, has platforms. Three of the transitions make chain grabs hard to pull off or straight up impossible (Flying, Electric and Ice) and the other you can just wait out. Depends how comfortable you are here though, most players dislike this stage simply because they aren't used to it.

Rainbow Cruise is the ideal CP against ICs so I have to assume the guy will either ban it or switch to DDD if you pick it. If he doesn't ban it and stays ICs, gg. If he doesn't ban it, you CP it, and he picks DDD, you're probably better off using Ike over Falco, even against DDD. Don't get grabbed on the ship facing the low wall thing, don't get grabbed on the only walk-off the stage presents (very top while it's panning right), and don't get grabbed beside the wall while the camera pans back down to the ship. If you grab DDD in any of those spots, you can abuse them too. Otherwise, use your superior air mobility and vertical air attacks to control the moving sections of the stage while he floats pathetically to try and keep up.

Frigate is eh. If you like it and feel comfortable, it's not a terrible choice, especially if your opponent dislikes it and is uncomfortable on it. You can really make the IC's lives miserable with that lack of a ledge on the right side, keeping them off-stage and forcing them to separate with an upB. You can also harass DDD very well off that side of the stage but unlike ICs, he has the disjoints to safely hit you out of Aether, so you won't be able to recover easily either.

I'm apparently in a wall-of-text mood today.


:248:
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Well, I appreciate the walls. I am extremely comfortable on CP stages. RCruise was what I had as a default, and still do. After that, Brinstar/Delphino/PS2 depending on Brinstar's legality which is (unjustly) up in the air in my region. Delphino/PS2 are going to be picked based on whether I think I'll see ICs or D3 that game and whether I'm fishing to play Falco or Ike.

As far as your neutral discussion goes, character choices are made before stage striking in set procedure, so I'm going to be picking against one character. I was actually considering PS1 as my go to neutral. It's a stage I'm very comfortable on and I know the transitions, and the order they appear in (after the first), very well and was considering it based on the transformation's ability to interrupt CGs in certain situations. However, after thinking about the stage as a whole, I'm scared of ICs on Water transformation if I end up in a position where my movement is limited and I don't really gain much from Rock/Fire/Grass/Neutral transformation to justify aiming for PS1 over Lylat or Battlefield. Lylat intrigues me because I don't hate it. BF would be my first strike if I were ICs. I think Lylat has the potential to be just as good a level for Ike as far as stage lay-out with the only issue being the tilt at inopportune times. I agree that YI/FD is bad. The way I see it, I'm probably going to end up on one of Castle Siege, PS1, Lylat, or Smashville depending on what he thinks about the MU. Personally I think I would rather play Lylat->PS1->Smashville->Castle Siege. I prefer the two small platform of PS1 neutral enough to outweigh my hesitancy at Water transformation, but PS1 and Smashville are about even to me. Castle Siege scares the **** out of me. I like the stage, but I see way too much opportunity for me to **** up my spacing on that tilt on Transformation 1, get killed off the side on Transformation 2, or get beaten on the flat stage on Transformation 3. Probably going to strike FD/CS/YI in that order.

As far as a ban, I'm almost certainly going to ban FD. It's true that it's probably where I would want to play against both ICs and D3 with Falco, but seriously, if I'm going to commit to avoid ICs/Falco, why would I ban to preserve my ability to play a MU I am not confident in? Ike/D3 is not good, but it's more manageable than ICs/Falco off of FD, imo.
 

Heartstring

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hnn...
wario: I cant deal with him using ike. I pick snake, But it's essentially a case of playing patient, Do not let him be right above you while you're on the ground, It is not favourable (particularly if he has a tire in hand). Try and keep him out with Nair and such. And teach yourself how to land an up-angles Ftilt from grab release (and if youre a technical wizard, learn how to do the pivot grab infinite regularly too)

Toon link: I havent played enough good ones to give a proper judgement. But i have to say learn how to powershield his projectiles, and keep a watchful eye out of Z-airs right before landing, that can mess you up and gradually tack on the damage.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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Ike has a pivot grab infinite off Wario grab release? God, that would be satisfying.

Wario, while I'm not particularly experienced in, I can theorycraft to hell and back. Wario is what has forced me to ditch so many bad habits as a player (shoutouts to Reflex).

Tink, on the otherhand, I just don't know. I've seen relativey good players, but sparingly. I've played MGJ once. However, I don't get him. I understand enough to cause him problems with Falco, but I have a lot more tools that are disruptive to what I understand he wants to do. Ike? I understand I can kill him a lot sooner off of one read if I can ever get close, but that's about all I can get.

:phone:
 

Heartstring

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we do, There is a 2 frames window for it though (unless he hasnt got his second jump, then its a little longer IIRC)
 

#HBC | Ryker

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And the timing would be variable each time dependent on his percent and mashing. Man, but that would be satisying. He could time you out by letting you do it if he was ahead enough, though.

:phone:
 

#HBC | Ryker

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I've never had an issue with air release utilt. If up-angled ftilt works, I would prefer keeping utilt fresh.

:phone:
 

Teh Brettster

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And the timing would be variable each time dependent on his percent and mashing. Man, but that would be satisying. He could time you out by letting you do it if he was ahead enough, though.

:phone:
Timing... stays the same from the point of release.
I've never had an issue with air release utilt. If up-angled ftilt works, I would prefer keeping utilt fresh.

:phone:
Those both work. But F-tilt has greater knockback, and it's more likely that in the rest of the match, you'll hit with that less, so it will already be more fresh.
Rack up dmg with Utilt and Bair, then kill with Ftilt if it's an option.

Also the pivot grab infinite isn't impossible. I regrabbed 13 times once.
But yeh, not practical if you haven't practiced it, I guess.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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It means you can't find a rythm like ICs or D3 or Wario or anyone with a buffered CG out of a throw.

I would think UTilt would be one of the more common kill blows you could land outside of a grab release anyway.

:phone:
 

smashkng

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Against Wario it's being defensive. Wario can't approach instantly like characters with a fast ground speed can do, however he can land almost everywhere he wants when he's in the air. Remember that against him walling with hitboxes is better than shielding when it comes to prevent him from approaching. Warios will 90% of the time approach from above you because of that. With the help of well spaced aerials like Fair and Nair Ike can shut down Wario's approaches from above as Ike has much better range than Wario. Wario doesn't have many options on the ground but make sure to space the aerials well so he won't shield grab you as that equals being below Wario where you don't want to be. Jab is also really good against Wario. You don't want him to get inside you or else he'll pressure you with his really good aerials.That's what I can say. I haven't played many campy Warios but it's a fun matchup against aggressive ones.
 

Heartstring

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yeah, i can imagine it being fun against an aggro one, but my local wario is the most defensive wario of all time, he could well be american :B

And if you plan on using ike vs. wario, Learning how to ftilt from grab release is pretty important
 

Rango the Mercenary

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How do you fight Snake? It's almost impossible not to get jab-baited into getting Ftilted. I jab, he ftilts after seeing it coming. I can't punish Snake on any move ever.
 
D

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I use to sort of have trouble against his jab cancel as well. I started spacing my aerials better, and baiting his F-Tilt/Jab-Ftilt so I could punish him back with my own jab. Our jab cancels are incredibly annoying against Snake, granting us around 20% free damage.
We can also punish most of his landings with a smash attack, so that's a great thing to have in mind. Also, our U-Air doesn't make his grenades explode and can potentially kill around 110-120 (the latter, closer to the ground).

In short, space better, shield his own jab cancelling attempts (it's actually not that bad, once you start knowing it can be punishable).
 

Rango the Mercenary

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I just faced Tsuchimikado's Fox. Halfway through our sets, he wasn't even trying anymore. He knows how to get-in and crossup with grabs and mixups from dair. I have no idea how to stop him. I can't turn-jab or turn-grab fast enough before he gets me. I can't punish him on Dair, either.
 

Heartstring

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you can shieldgrab his Dair on shield. It's hard to describe what to do outside of that, just...dont be predictable lol
 

smashkng

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You can position so that he can't cross you up by retreating a bit smartly. Positioning is a very important fundamental which when used correctly gives you more favorable options while limiting the options of the opponent. You can also hit him during his Dair attempt. Though sometimes positioning can be difficult with Ike due to his mediocre mobility, he can't reposition as quickly as someone like Marth or Pikachu. Still, it's an option you have which can also confuse the opponent when repositioning smartly. You can anti-air his Dair with Utilt or aerials, but it can be risky cause he could also bait you with Shine stall and wait until the move ends and then punish you, or just air dodge through it. So you have to be smart with it too. Only Fox's Bair when spaced is truelly safe on block, which is telegraphed cause it has a bit of start-up, low hitbox duration, not much vertical hitbox and a lot of aerial cooldown (though it autocancels very early and doesn't have that much landing lag). PSing will make it even easier to punish Fox's aerials on you and in the long run reduce the risk of getting shield poked, considering Ike's options are pretty limited in that "just outside jab range" range which will force you to shield pretty often there. Try your best not to get in such a position. From that range Fox can pressure you very easily and punish almost any kind of commitment Ike makes. But it's pretty easy for Ike to end up there against someone with as fast ground mobility as Fox. Especially once you're cornered this problem is more noticeable, cause then you lose the option to escape from there by retreating. You'll have to take riskier options to get out of there once cornered. Plus at the same time you can end up offstage much easier if you're cornered.
 

smashkng

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PS= powershielding. Very crucial with any character especially someone who has as an bad of an OoS game as Ike.
 

Waldox7

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Ryuga wanted me to post this for the ike vs ic mu. Going to paste it here if anything.

[2:05:54 PM] Ryuga: but other then the bthrow fsmash the mu could be played with ike baiting an approach and pivot grabbing popo or nana by the ledge
[2:06:01 PM] Ryuga: when you bthrow nana offstage
[2:06:08 PM] Ryuga: you can short hop dair
[2:06:12 PM] Ryuga: and kill her
[2:06:18 PM] Ryuga: because she is a reg computer
[2:06:26 PM] Ryuga: and when you bthrow popo
[2:06:30 PM] Ryuga: you can dtilt nana
[2:06:33 PM] Ryuga: offstage
[2:06:39 PM] Ryuga: and it kills her as well
[2:06:57 PM | Edited 2:07:06 PM] Ryuga: and that MU can be played by waiting for them to do dumb ****
[2:07:16 PM] Ryuga: and when they desync with blizzard
[2:07:24 PM] Ryuga: its a free punish on popo from above
 

san.

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Cool. I never had many issues with ICs if there wasn't a skill gap, but they appeared to be on the rise ever since I stopped playing competitively. Has ICs gotten any tougher with their recently developed gameplay?
 

Heartstring

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IC's seem to be a bit more cerebral with how they play since the rise in usage. More people using them means more people know how to properly fight them, means they had to get smarter to get the grabs...I'd still say it's like a 55:45 in their favour
 
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