The Ike Match-Up Ratio Topic

[Mr. Doom]

Grab him. Have you forgotten how to grab?

 

[Heartstring]

i cant grab during landing lag. by the time nairs landing lag is gone hes already thrown me
ill upload games from next tournament. ever since day 1 of my offline tournaments, ive had to fight this homo every tournament ive been to XD

 

[Teh Brettster]

I'm so confused checking two different threads on this board. MAKE IT STOP!

 

[Blubolouis]

Was wondering how far we'd take it... Seems like Brett is as his limit.
Go check the video critique thread instead!

 

[Dat Archer]

Regarding the Luigi MU, just a short write up.

Luigi can't get in. He slides after every hit. He doesn't have any range.

That's pretty much it. It probably be 65:35 had luigi not have his fireballs. Call me bold.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Funny thing is we at the panel are arguing with the Luigi panel and they all think it's even. Which is... dumb. We are arguing +2.

 

[theeboredone]

Not sure if you're supposed to be leaking that Brett lol.

 

[Teh Brettster]

I never read a rule that said that. Whatever.

 

[san.]

I should start to help at the panel... Maybe when I'm done being awake doing work until 4:30 am every day lol.

 

[Ussi]

Your help would be really helpful.. Have you fought any good kirbies to describe the MU?

 

[Dat Archer]

Are you asking everyone or san Ussi?

 

[Ussi]

.............


really?

 

[Blubolouis]

[theeboredone]post count+1, Ussi. Nice one.

he was asking san, the rest of us are bad. [/theeboredone]

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Funny thing is we at the panel are arguing with the Luigi panel and they all think it's even. Which is... dumb. We are arguing +2.

You can tell them that they are stupid. If they are using fireball as a basis for that, slap them.

 

[Dat Archer]

really?

Excuse me for being an idiot.

Anyway, I think patience when playing Kirby. Typically he's going to try for some grab combo at the start which will do +40% or something along those lines. Then play keep away with his air camping till a kill/gimp chance appears.

When he air camps the key is to count his midair jumps, once you catch on to that most of the problem is really solved. Dumb use of Bair for kirby is easily punished after all. I tend use Utilt or Usmash to kill him, utilt being a safer move.

Wouldn't go for many gimps or take offstage risks a lot vs him. Kirby is much better offstage than you are. Same goes for recovering, be smart and change it up. You can lose stocks easy if you don't.

That's all I got.

 

[holyv]

It is even

There are many reasons

1. Luigi can up-b everything you do
2. Luigi can gimp you like metaknight defeats ganon
3. Luigi can SDI out of your jab
4. If he's starting a combo, he's finishing a combo.

1. You guys have disjointed hitbox
2. You guys have strength
3. you can safely attack shield

You see, you guys are getting to much technical and keep forgetting the ''situational'' part

Ike's jab is slow as fack and you can SDI out of it and get a free nair, and the matchup gave ike the credit just because it covered luigi's options, even if he could approach with cyclone SAFELY.

Even luigi's forward smash is less laggy than fair, he could grounddodge and get some sexy stuff done on you.

Luigis know that you shouldn't get THAT predictable against an ike, the down tilt spike is hardly going to happen, look up the luigi boards.

NOBODY AIRDODGES INTO YOU, WTFF

The solid killers on luigi ike has are:
-Side Tilt
-Down Air
-With a little bit of luck or a major screw up by the luigi, Up Smash
-Up Tilt

It's not because you have guaranteed stuff that you are going to get guaranteed wins, There's always a way to stop stuff that is going to happen, Ex: When you play against IC's, you stay in the air and camp.

 

[Teh Brettster]

I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling or not because of the ridiculousness of everything you're sa...

OH. Location: Brazil.

I understand now.

 

[holyv]

Scumbag Teh Brettser

Losing an argument

Invent stuff about your country so you get upset about it and admit that you're wrong.

 

[theeboredone]

Actually, he was implying your metagame is different than ours. In this case, the metagame in Brazil is clearly behind. No disrespect. There are just so many flaws in your statement...I could write a full page on it if I wanted too.

 

[holyv]

Wow, now that you said it, king ddd is still tier 3 here

 

[Teh Brettster]

You mind showing a video that proves Luigi able to up-B anything we can do?
Or a video detailing all the ways Luigi can gimp Ike?
Btw, everyone can SDI out of the jab. That's why a good Ike, dare I say it... ADAPTS.
Oh if he starts a combo blah blah. Guess what. We can SDI out of the combo. OH ****.

Btw. Free Nair on jab? No. LOL no. Free shield and punish for us if he tries it. Don't act like we don't know anything about the match-up.

And yah... Ike's jab SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.

Ftilt should never be your most common kill move as Ike. Sorry pal. Nor should Dtilt or Dair. Nobody gets hit by those. Usmash = most common kill move of your list aside from Utilt.

Now let me show you how to make people air dodge into you (re: NOBODY AIRDODGES INTO YOU WTF)
1) They come down. You jump early. You double jump and throw out an aerial.
2) Next time it happens, jump early. They air dodge. Land, Usmash. GG.

"Luigis know not to get predictable against an Ike."
You for real? Everyone who plays every character knows not to get predictable against anyone who uses any character. Why does this make a difference in this match-up?

"Luigi less laggy than your Fair."
K. That's why we use Nair in this match-up. He cannot get in if we space.

........
Think I got everything.
Now that I'm NOT losing an argument, may I point out that your country is far behind most in this game?

 

[holyv]

Yo bro some of these were boss words.

Really? you guys still hit people with Nair? that impress me, that really impress me.

i might be wrong on some things, but i'm not 100%.

Also yeah, free nair on jab, BC got an aerial shoryuken.

The predict thing was about recovering wtih cyclone.

oh bye, i'm coming over tomorrow!

 

[Nysyarc]

Really? you guys still hit people with Nair? that impress me, that really impress me.

By this statement alone I have to assume you're either trolling or you seriously don't know what you're talking about. Even if your region literally picked up Brawl last month you'd know that Nair is one of Ike's best attacks. Unless you have played this match-up at a competitive level extensively (which I highly doubt you have), I suggest you don't pretend that your opinions are fact.

Educate yourself on this match-up a bit more, and on Ike in general, and then come back if you find any legitimate arguments to make.

 

[holyv]

Ike is twice times taller then luigi, wich makes him ''combable'' even if he tries to DI away from it, for example a Dair>Nair>Utilt You get out of it on the utilt, but then you already have 20% on your damage gauge.

THE NAIR THING IS OBVIOUS, he obviously WILL hit sometimes, luigi can't get through it, i did sarcasm over there, see? That's why luigi has something called Fireball, man.

You really think a Luigi would act agressive against someone he can't even get close to it? please, the strategy (ACCORDING TO THE LUIGI MATCHUP THREAD) is Wait'n'Punish and Spam fireballs. See, ike is by far the slowest character in the game, Luigi's up-b can kill ike at 60% - 70% and is the best punisher in the game because it's really fast and ridiculously strong, that makes ike vulnerable at all missed attacks except Auto-Canceled aerials and jab (There's no lagless finishing move at all).

ike doesen't have a projectile and his attack range is not that bigadeal because on fight games you have the block button.

Stage advantages:

Ike:
-Battlefield
-Castle Siege
-Delfino Plaza
-Lylat cruise
-Pokémon stadium 2;1
-Brinstar
Luigi:
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Halberd
-Frigate orpheon

55:45 for ike, Like it was on the Luigi matchup threads, and on almost all of the personal ike matchup posts here

......
I don't care if my country is behind or not, i can lose an argument, i'm not desperate like you are to win, it's just a game, chill, k?

 

[smashkng]

Even when Luigi somehow manages to get in he has to worry about the jab. It's very hard for Luigi to actually punish a lot of Ike's stuff (which are pretty much the only moves is going to use during the match) because he slides WAY TOO FAR when he shields Ike's attacks unless he PS (and even then Ike's Nair is still safe on Luigi's PS if he spaces right). Sorry but it's just that Luigi is probably the worst character in the game at safely punishing Ike's moves. Ike's actually not that slow thanks to his few fast moves called Bair, Jab, grab and Nair. TBH, many characters don't have anything faster than Ike's jab. Ike's jab means that even when you somehow get inside him Ike's jab is still just as good as Luigi's other options are at close range. Ike also outmobiles Luigi just like every other character in the game does (unless you count Cyclone), especially in the air. Luigi's Fireballs are not that good at all for camping, Ike's trascended aerials make it unable to beat it but Luigi's Fireballs have super limited range for a projectile and are very easy to just jab or PS.

Sorry but FD only makes it even harder for Luigi to get inside Ike. Large stages only make it even harder for Luigi to get in, which is extremely important for Luigi to be able to.

 

[holyv]

You're getting too teorical, LUIGIS WON'T DO THE SAME THING, a good luigi could win the match with no problems at all, 55:45 was closed to the luigi boards for one reason.

By the way i'm done, i think i'm causing too much trouble with you guys, have a good week!

 

[RiverDB]

MU discussions are SUPPOSED to be theoratical, since we will be discussing the options both characters have during a match, and how they can react to eachother. In this matchup Ike clearly has an advantage because Luigi CAN'T punich a decent Ike, since Ike's spacing will make it imposseble. Even if Luigi starts camping with fireballs, Ike can just choose to not approach. I know this matchup from both sides, and i think Niddo and Sk gave good summaries of the MU.

PS. long time no see Ikeboards

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nys, just infract the obvious troll already and get rid of his posts. I mean, nobody who is actually thinking would say a frame 3 move is slow. I'm dead serious on that as well; considering it's technically my topic. Infract him, get rid of the posts.

 

[Heartstring]

Nys, just infract the obvious troll already and get rid of his posts. I mean, nobody who is actually thinking would say a frame 3 move is slow. I'm dead serious on that as well; considering it's technically my topic. Infract him, get rid of the posts.

I second this notion, I'm totally free and all this talk hurts even me

 

[Teh Brettster]

You're getting too teorical, LUIGIS WON'T DO THE SAME THING, a good luigi could win the match with no problems at all, 55:45 was closed to the luigi boards for one reason.

By the way i'm done, i think i'm causing too much trouble with you guys, have a good week!

Lol this guy.

Well here's a tip. Ike won't space poorly enough to EVER get hit by Luigi's upB. You're acting extremely dumb and seemingly consciously choosing not to actually see both sides of this match-up.

 

[Nysyarc]

I have to assume he's just really misinformed rather than trolling. If he actually does post here again though and doesn't change tact, I will infract him. He can consider this a warning, along with my insistence on not speaking to him directly.

 

[Teh Brettster]

I don't really think that being wrong is called an infraction. Just, meh.

 

[Ussi]

You guys don't know dumb if you don't read the metagame and ruleset boards

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You guys don't know dumb if you don't read the metagame and ruleset boards

I do.

Why Doc King and Jebus are still allowed to post in that area is beyond me...

So, question: if I was to get around to updating this topic, what should the agreed upon means for the +/- system numbers mean so that we're all on the same page? I personally hate that system, but it's apparently what the majority uses now so for this topic I'm willing to update accordingly. However, I'd want at least general meanings behind the numbers so that everybody is at least roughly seeing the same thing for each number. It would also be a handy thing for me to add to the OP for newbies reading the topic if each number had a small description.

 

[Ussi]

It's very board the meaning of the numbers

 

[theeboredone]

Just wait until the panel results come out and this topic will be rendered useless

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nah. Silly compromises will always make those panel results off.

 

[Nysyarc]

I don't really think that being wrong is called an infraction. Just, meh.

I'd be infracting him for trolling. After all the points we've made and his insistence on not even taking them into consideration while using player skill to determine a MU rating, it would be obvious trolling if he came back and still didn't change his stance. But anyways...

So, question: if I was to get around to updating this topic, what should the agreed upon means for the +/- system numbers mean so that we're all on the same page? I personally hate that system, but it's apparently what the majority uses now so for this topic I'm willing to update accordingly. However, I'd want at least general meanings behind the numbers so that everybody is at least roughly seeing the same thing for each number. It would also be a handy thing for me to add to the OP for newbies reading the topic if each number had a small description.

I think Ankoku put it best when I asked the same thing: think of it in terms of a best of 7 set, how many matches the winning character will be up at the end of the set. It means you have to take stage counter-picking into consideration too, so I like that method. For example:

ICs beats Ganon on every stage by a considerable margin, he has no CPs against them that don't also hurt himself and he just generally gets destroyed by them. Thus ICs are most likely to be up 4-0 at the end of a best of 7 set assuming roughly equal skill.

+4 / -4

If the set could go either way depending on stage selection and/or character tools, it's an even match-up.

 

[theeboredone]

But aren't these ratios compromises as well? Someone's idea of a MU could be silly compared to the rest of ours, skewing it in the process.
Ninja'd by Ike from worst region. Dammit.

 

[san.]

If you take cps into account, we get Delfino, BF, Brinstar, etc. Seems kind of unfair..