The ideal patch: Monado Boy

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Shulk is a very interesting fighter, as he effectively has 6 different gameplay styles depending on the art currently in use. ZeRo himself has even said that Shulk is his favourite fighter to play as (although use of him in tournaments is not a great idea). He is held back mostly by his frame-data, and it doesn't help that Shulk mains have yet to 100% master the use of the Monado Arts, so this thread will focus mainly on that.

Disclaimers:
This thread is part of a project I am doing to create a final balance patch for every fighter in the game. I am not, nor do i claim to be an expert on Shulk.
Although it is unlikely we will get another patch, rumours of a port for the Switch do give us hope that there might be one. If worst comes to worst, this project could be realized in the form of a complex mod of the game.

Jab 1 startup: 4 -> 3
Dash attack startup: 14 -> 11 (via frame speed multiplier, so range is unaffected)
Dash attack ending lag: 37 -> 33
Ftilt startup: 11 -> 10
Ftilt ending lag: 31 -> 29
Utilt startup: 10 -> 9
Utilt ending lag: 17 -> 13
Dtilt startup: 9 -> 8
Dtilt ending lag: 21 -> 19
Nair startup: 12 -> 10
Nair ending lag: 41 -> 37 (new FAF: 65)
Nair landing lag: 10 -> 9
Nair autocancel: 80 -> 58
Fair startup: 13 -> 11
Fair ending lag: 24 -> 22 (new FAF: 38)
Fair landing lag: 16 -> 14
Fair autocancel: 57 -> 35
Bair startup: 17 -> 14
Bair ending lag: 33 -> 26 (new FAF: 45)
Bair KBG: 100 -> 106
Bair landing lag: 19 -> 16
Bair autocancel: 79 -> 41
Uair startup: 13 -> 11
Uair ending lag: 35 -> 28 (new FAF: 51)
Uair landing lag: 15 -> 14
Uair autocancel: 79 -> 47
Dair startup: 13 -> 11
Dair ending lag: 37 -> 29 (new FAF: 49)
Dair landing lag: 23 -> 19
Dair autocancel: 79 -> 45

-----Monado Art Changes-----

---Jump Art---
damage taken: 122% -> 120%
air speed: 150% -> 155%
fall speed: 122% -> 120%
new passive ability: all landing lag reduced by 8%

---Speed Art---
air speed: 130% -> 135%
new passive ability: increases roll distances by 10%
new passive ability: reduces all ending lag by 5%

---Shield Art---
damage dealt: 70% -> 74%
ground speed: 60% -> 65%
air speed: 60% -> 65%
shield health: 150% -> 165%
new passive ability: halves all shieldstun
new passive ability: received hitstun reduced by 5%
new passive ability: adds an extra 2 frames of intangibility to spotdodge, rolls and air dodge

---Buster Art---
damage taken: 113% -> 110%
damage dealt: 140% -> 145%
new passive ability: increases hitbox sizes for all attacks and grabs by 15%

---Smash Art---
knockback dealt: 118% -> 122%
new passive ability: prevents SDI, DI and vectoring of attacks dealt
new passive ability: increases inflicted hitstun by 10%




As usual, feedback is always appreciated.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Oh lord almighty, you're looking to break Shulk here. Be careful what you wish for, cause the changes you're proposing will make Shulk potentially broken.

Let's go down the list. Everything unmentioned is either decent or unnecessary but not busted.

Welcome Changes:
Any Aerial autocancel buff
Especially for Bair. That autocancel window makes me so upset.
Dtilt buffs
Solid move that could use a slight push to become a better zoning option

Eyebrow Raisers:
Utilt ending lag: 17 -> 13 / Uair startup: 13 -> 11
Utilt -> Uair is now a true combo that kills around 65% up until around 90% in JumpArt
Fair startup: 13 -> 11 / (new FAF: 38)
Fair Strings now true combo more consistently, killing stupid early off the side.
Bair startup: 17 -> 14
Not too bad to buff, but the buff seems a bit excessive. This move's busted even being so slow.
Shield Art new passive ability: received hitstun reduced by 5%
Shield Art already reduces hitstun received because of the KB reduction

Game Breakers:
Uair startup: 13 -> 11
Uthrow > Uair is now a true combo in JumpArt on characters with slow/moderate airdodges that kills from 75% - stupid high %
Smash Art new passive ability: prevents SDI, DI and vectoring of attacks dealt
People will die at stupid low %s to everything

Suggested Changes:
Allow Monado Art Cycling during hitstop
Allows Shulk to cycle between Arts during multihit combos without picking wrong by accident
Pause the Monado Art Activation Timer while inflicting hitstop
MALLC timings are now identical on hit and on whiff/shield
Jab1 startup: 4 -> 2
Gives Shulk a close range boxing option to make up for overall poor startup frame data
Increase hitstun of Fsmash1 and Usmash1
Makes these attacks more consistent, prevents escape from 2nd hit

Only other welcome change I can think of is to do something about the fact that people can clank Shulk's Fsmash with a jab.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Oh lord almighty, you're looking to break Shulk here. Be careful what you wish for, cause the changes you're proposing will make Shulk potentially broken.

Let's go down the list. Everything unmentioned is either decent or unnecessary but not busted.

Welcome Changes:
Any Aerial autocancel buff
Especially for Bair. That autocancel window makes me so upset.
Dtilt buffs
Solid move that could use a slight push to become a better zoning option

Eyebrow Raisers:
Utilt ending lag: 17 -> 13 / Uair startup: 13 -> 11
Utilt -> Uair is now a true combo that kills around 65% up until around 90% in JumpArt
Fair startup: 13 -> 11 / (new FAF: 38)
Fair Strings now true combo more consistently, killing stupid early off the side.
Bair startup: 17 -> 14
Not too bad to buff, but the buff seems a bit excessive. This move's busted even being so slow.
Shield Art new passive ability: received hitstun reduced by 5%
Shield Art already reduces hitstun received because of the KB reduction

Game Breakers:
Uair startup: 13 -> 11
Uthrow > Uair is now a true combo in JumpArt on characters with slow/moderate airdodges that kills from 75% - stupid high %
Smash Art new passive ability: prevents SDI, DI and vectoring of attacks dealt
People will die at stupid low %s to everything

Suggested Changes:
Allow Monado Art Cycling during hitstop
Allows Shulk to cycle between Arts during multihit combos without picking wrong by accident
Pause the Monado Art Activation Timer while inflicting hitstop
MALLC timings are now identical on hit and on whiff/shield
Jab1 startup: 4 -> 2
Gives Shulk a close range boxing option to make up for overall poor startup frame data
Increase hitstun of Fsmash1 and Usmash1
Makes these attacks more consistent, prevents escape from 2nd hit

Only other welcome change I can think of is to do something about the fact that people can clank Shulk's Fsmash with a jab.

Firstly, thank you for the feedback, I have read through your comment and while I agree with some of it, I do have a few things to say:

Utilt -> Uair is now a true combo [...] in JumpArt

, yes, but it is not broken since, as you correctly stated, this requires Shulk to be using the Jump Art, so this combo must be planned ahead of time.

Shield art already reduces hitstun received because of the KB reduction

Ok you are technically correct, but it does so in the wrong way. There are 2 types of hitstun, raw hitstun and relative hitstun. Raw hitstun is the exact number of frames of hitstun dealt by the formula, and relative hitstun is the amount of hitstun relative to how far away the opponent is sent, as the further they are launched, the longer it will take for the opponent to reach them. In 64 and Melee, relative hitstun was a constant, although knockback that was too high would still make combos impossible. In Brawl, however, hitstun cancelling was introduced, and while it was weakened in SSB4, it is still present. Once the raw hitstun reaches 41 frames, hitstun cancelling takes effect, and relative hitstun drops, and as such, the more knockback a move deals, the harder it is to get followups. Reducing Shulk's knockback thereforee makes him easier to combo, which is why I think the raw knockback should be reduced to below normal levels, so as not to have combos override the benefits of the damage reduction.

Uthrow > Uair is now a true combo in JumpArt on characters with slow/moderate airdodges

Do you see how specific this is, not only must you be in Jump Art to pull this off, but it doesn't even work on every fighter, plus Shulk doesn't exactly have the fastest grab in the game. Also, you would still have to read DI.

Smash Art new passive ability: prevents SDI, DI and vectoring of attacks dealt
People will die at stupid low %s to everything

honestly it wouldn't make THAT much of a difference, DI and SDI generally only save you for 1-2% longer anyway

As for your suggested changes, assuming that by hitstop you mean freeze-frames (or hitlag as it's called in the code), the Monado Art Cycling change is actually a really good idea. I feel bad for not thinking of that. The Jab 1 change seems a bit extreme, maybe just 4 -> 3 instead of 4 -> 2. Increasing hitstun is tricky, as you would have to increase knockback as well which could have unexpected consequences, I don't think hitstun is the problem anyway, as even Jigglypuff (lowest relative hitstun) and Bowser (lowest raw hitstun) are in hitstun for long enough for those to be true combos.

 

[Masonomace]

Thoughts​

TheLobsterCopter5000 your OP project heavily favors the majority of Shulk's overall move-pool change to the frame data by only startup & recovery. I'm kinda hoping you also consider things like hitbox activity, apparent elements to the core game that directly affect characters like hitlag, hitbox range, etc..

What I feel is fine

• Anything not mentioned in "not fine".

What I feel is not

• Dash attack being a kill move in Smash art & being Frame 12 is way too spooky.
• The combination of Fair's FAF, autocancel, & landing lag buff [spoiler below for reasons]

Spoiler: Fair is overtuned now

Buster Shulk can act before landing out of a buffered SH+Fair from jumpsquat. So after Buster Shulk hits shield, he can jump away & likely land with retreating Fair & be safe due to dealing slightly more damage on top of more range & reduced landing lag. Speed Shulk can buffer SH+Fair & autocancel... and the art has higher air speed now.

• The combination of Bair's startup, endlag, landing lag, & autocancel. [spoiler below for reasons]

Spoiler: Bair

SH+Bair can now autocancel from a SH if you input it quickly enough as Jump Shulk, can now autocancel before Speed Shulk's FH landing and act out of endlag before Speed Shulk's SH, the faster startup & reduced landing lag puts Buster art in a much much more advantageous position even if you're in Disadvantage, & the faster stronger & less recovery suffered means that Smash Shulk's art Bair is fear itself.

• Uair's startup (This sounds really, really silly, but I'd be okay with frame 13 hitbox. Frame 12 with that Utilt reduction already however, that poses some balance problems. Perhaps my comment earlier about frame 13 being okay is a mistake, actually.)

Art thoughts​

• Jump Shulk is already pretty good. A lot of this is more icing, but all I really feel okay with is just reducing the Damage Taken %. Everything else about Jump feels too strong because of the general improvement to Shulk's moves.
• Speed Shulk is even more solid than we might like. The passive abilities chosen causes Speed art's rolls to be the best in the game arguably now, so now the entire ground-based movement is improved even further due to the general improvement to Shulk's moves. Endlag in general being reduced is crazy to think about because it's affecting matters like Vision, ledge options, airdodge, & the art's activation.
• Shield Shulk is the reason I play this game, so I'm very bias to let you know. I'm actually a bit over half-satisfied with Shield art suggestions in this thread OP. To start, 2/3 of the passive abilities are up my alley, as I enjoy the thought that Shield art should have always reacted more quickly out-of-shield as well as reducing the raw hitstun, greatly helping Shield art not get combo'd so much even though he goes nowhere. The intangibility added to all of Shulk's dodge options however, is kinda eh to me at least. Naturally it's not a bad thing, but considering the canon of Xenoblade & thinking to how arts could change, I'm shocked that Shield would get this ability over Speed which in XBC, Speed actually improves dodge rate for a given amount of time. If that translated into smash bros., Speed art would be ideal. Not that I'm fully against it though, since Shield does input more dodge options in close-quarters or tight moments often. The passive Speed art has, which was the roll distance increase, would fit Shield much better since that is actually his fastest way of travel from point A to B, but I do enjoy the suggestion of more damage & shield health.
• Buster Shulk is funny. You buff the reward & reduce the risk in this equation & with the passive buff on top of having more range to moves & grab. I would love this because Buster does crank up range a crap ton in the game, but this makes Buster art more formidable regardless of position in the pace of match. Moves like Dtilt, Utilt, Fsmash2, Usmash2, all aerials especially Bair, Back Slash, & most of all, Air Slash are just XBC Shulk level now XD.
• Smash Shulk on-hit is too good. Ceasing DI to not be applied for survival against said move / attack now makes things like Back Slash, so so so so much more terrifying. Bair is terrifying. And Dthrow becomes by far the best kill throw in terms of the angle launched. Heck, all of Smash art moves are now more solid on-hit by themselves than kill confirms other characters have normally.

General suggested thoughts about Shulk move-set​

• Reduce endlag on a good amount of Shulk's moves by only 2-5 frames at most.
• Increase hitbox activity on several moves (Nair, Fsmash hit 1, Uair hit 1, & Dair hit 1 need it most imo. Others can just get 1-2).
  
• Hitbox range fixes (Ftilt to hit low characters underneath the swing, Ledge attack entirely whiffing with the ether part, etc.).
• Reduced damage or reduced kb power on a good amount of Shulk's moves by only about 0.5% - 2% at most to compensate, or under ~3 - 6 values of BKB or KBG.
• WBKB altered for moves to help link the move together overall (Jab2 not launching floaties too high, Usmash up-close being ass, etc.)
• Hitlag modifiers being toned down or outright removed (Hitlag normally being a neat feature, it slows down Shulk's moves too much, making his attacks activity & recovery lag even further to ease the opponent's reaction to pick up to speed.)

My suggested thoughts about arts​

• More air physics affected through parameters for Jump art. Right now the only thing good about this art, is the fact that you can drift from nowhere to somewhere forward fairly quickly, but then have godly air speed holding forward. The problem with this art is that you fall like a brick while not having great weave potential nor air friction should you want to stop & mixup your movement favorably. The fact that jumpsquat isn't reduced out of a grounded jumpsquat, footstool jumpsquat, or the hopping animation from Back Slash kinda baffles me about Jump art. [EDIT: Reduce airborne footstool endlag in Jump, so that you don't fall like a brick & still take the same endlag as Vanilla. . .]
• Better dodge rate in all of Speed art's dodge options (translates to basically faster startup by 1 frame, 1 frame more intangibility, or 1 frame less endlag as an example), improved walk acceleration, smoother-pivot transitions, etc.. Remove the ground friction increase from this art.
• Shield art gains ground friction, a shield-stun parameter for reducing block-stun, reduced shield-drop lag, increased power shield window, slightly increased damage multiplier, etc..
• Buster art renamed to Enchant. Deals slightly more damage through the multiplier to , , & .
• Smash art with slightly more knockback power through the multiplier, slightly better Charge Hold & Charge Release data with a small bonus to smash attacks.

So yeah.

 

[Masonomace]

Also, the removal of taunt canceling as an application with the art activation via a previous patch was a mistake. One of the more satisfying things that should be a thing for Shulk's game-play.

 

[Masonomace]

Game Breakers:
Smash Art new passive ability: prevents SDI, DI and vectoring of attacks dealt
People will die at stupid low %s to everything

honestly it wouldn't make THAT much of a difference, DI and SDI generally only save you for 1-2% longer anyway

I'll just let the training mode labbing do the talking.

Stage: Final Destination
Position: At very end of ledge (so much so, Shulk is teetering after the throw ending)
Character tested: Mario

Smash Shulk Dthrow KO% WITHOUT DI: 83% from blastline
Smash Shulk Dthrow KO% WITH VECTORING (but without airjumping): 124% from blastline

31% kill difference. That's huge & we're not even using Rage effect. The difference is too huge. This alone is the best patch buff on the list.

What you might be thinking about is DI'ing against vertical knockback, not KOs from the sides. Vectoring is super important to factor in though.