The ideal patch: Mario

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Mario's exact position on the tier list is very controversial, but most people agree he is top tier. I honestly don't think Mario needs too many nerfs, but here is what i think would make him balanced.

Up tilt base knockback: 28 -> 42
Up tilt KBG: 130 -> 125
Up Smash base damage: 14 -> 13.8
Up smash KBG: 94 -> 92
Down throw angle: 68 -> 65
Down throw KBG: 90 -> 96
Fair startup: 15 frames -> 17 frames
Fair FAF: 60 -> 65
Fair autocancel: 43 -> 48
Super Jump Punch (finisher) KBG: 145 -> 130
F.L.U.D.D charge time: 98 frames -> 115 frames

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

After careful analysis of your proposed changes, it sounds like Mario should be reverted back to his Brawl self. All right, hun, let me break this down for you:

• Fair is one of Mario's most useless moves. It already comes out slow with **** ending and landing lag, so why bother making this even slower than it has to be?
• FLUDD takes a good amount of time to charge. Please don't make it worse by increasing charge time. As far as I can tell, this move isn't very useful since a decent number of recovering fighters such as or or can shrug off the push effect and still recover. Yeah...FLUDD is best reserved for certain MUs ( come to mind).
• As for your changes to down-throw and up-tilt, they suggest more difficulty in throw combos. Such a disservice to users since that's one of his best ways to rack up damage. Then again, with that higher knockback on up-tilt, Mario could still follow up with quick aerial chains.
• May I ask why y'all want less KBG on up-B and up-smash?

Yeah...there should be some explanation for these changes like everyone else says. If anything about Mario should be fixed it ought to be his general reach on attacks or even his recovery which since Brawl has not been great.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

You obviously don't fully understand what Mario's strengths and weaknesses are

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

You obviously don't fully understand what Mario's strengths and weaknesses are

Mmm...I must suppress my pain of laughter. Now, sugar, I'm no Mario main, but I've played him long enough to know his ins and outs, thank you very much.

I did point out some of his weaknesses such as lack of attack range and weak stage recovery. Some of his good points include but not limited to generally fast attacks and good edge-guarding ability.

Look here, hun. I admire what you're doing for the fighters, but like other users are saying do your research and give reasons for these modifications.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Mmm...I must suppress my pain of laughter. Now, sugar, I'm no Mario main, but I've played him long enough to know his ins and outs, thank you very much.

I did point out some of his weaknesses such as lack of attack range and weak stage recovery. Some of his good points include but not limited to generally fast attacks and good edge-guarding ability.

Look here, hun. I admire what you're doing for the fighters, but like other users are saying do your research and give reasons for these modifications.

I actually put a very large amount of research into these, and while they aren't perfect, I feel like your criticisms aren't the right kind of criticisms. There are certainly ways I can improve them, but sometimes you get people who complain about things that aren't a problem.

If you want some explanations then here is my reasoning, but I would like to point out that the thing that makes patch notes exciting is that people can have their own interpretations on how exactly a fighter will be affected, which is why I usually don't give explanations unless I think what I tried to do is particularly confusing.

I changed Utilt's base knockback to remove the free Utilt-Utilt combos that people complain about, but I decreased the KBG so that it can retain its Utilt to aerial combos. Many people often complain that given how fast Mario's Up smash is, it shouldn't be so strong, and people don't like how 'spammable' it is. I didn't want to make it slower as this goes against Mario's nature, so I just made it a bit weaker. Down throw combos will not be completely removed by my changes, but in its current state, down throw combos are very strong. Fair is a deceptively good move due to its power, its discrete startup animation making it hard to notice and its surprisingly large range. It is actually a very good move. The biggest flaw in Mario's otherwise amazing air combos is that Up special is lacking as a finisher, so I thought the best way to go about nerfing his air game was to nerf this. F.L.U.D.D gives Mario a huge advantage over fighters with predictable recoveries, and I wanted it to remain effective, but decided to make it a bit harder to fully charge to make Marios have to think a bit more carefully about how to charge it effectively.

 

[BSP]

I disagree with you OP. Mario is fine right now. He's a strong character, but he's not overpowered in the slightest. He has clear strengths and weaknesses right now. If we look at how results have been going for him (https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/) he is clearly a good character but nowhere near dominant.

Up tilt base knockback: 28 -> 42
Up tilt KBG: 130 -> 125
Down throw angle: 68 -> 65
Down throw KBG: 90 -> 96

These nerfs are hurting Mario's combo and damage racking game. Why is this necessary? Mario already tends to lose neutral harder than most of the cast by either range, raw damage per hit, mobility, lack of a real forwards approach move, or disjoints. He should be destroying characters when he gets in because he has limited means of doing so, and even then the only characters he destroys are fast-fallers and characters without a combo break option. The utilt change would only really affect his combo game on fast fallers anyway, as there tends to be better options for other weight and fall speed classes. On the flip side, those characters he destroys with combos tend to have a huge leg up on Mario in neutral.

If you really want to hurt his damage output, taking 1% off of Uair and maybe .5% off of Bair while compensating the KB for both would be a better "fix". I wouldn't agree with either of those changes, but they wouldn't destroy mario. Well, they probably would but w/e.

Up Smash base damage: 14 -> 13.8
Up smash KBG: 94 -> 92

Mario's Usmash doesn't need nerfs. It's only spammable against bad players, as most of the cast can dash grab Mario for free for Usmashing their shield (tethers just grab him straight up), and it's not hard to whiff punish otherwise. Don't get me wrong, it's a strong move. Strong moves are fine though. Characters need strong, defining moves or they'll lose their identity.

Fair startup: 15 frames -> 17 frames
Fair FAF: 60 -> 65
Fair autocancel: 43 -> 48

I'm legit lost on this one. Mario's fair is fine, there's a reason you don't see it used that much in top level outside of hard reads. Mario clearly pulls his fist back before swinging, so i'm not getting where this "discrete" startup is coming from. It has enough lag as is. Most of the cast can Usmash him out of shield for it, and a good bit can drop shield -> Dsmash him for it, or at least get a tilt in.

Super Jump Punch (finisher) KBG: 145 -> 130

SJP is fine as is too. It doesn't kill well unless you hit someone really close to the blastzone. Mario can combo you up there, yes, but as an early beefy smash doods video pointed out, a combo into this should never KO you unless you screw up and get grabbed on a platform. Mario already can't KO that well outside of raw smash reads, please don't nerf his KO potential.

F.L.U.D.D charge time: 98 frames -> 115 frames

That's nearly 2 seconds to charge a projectile that does no damage. Mario players already have to think about charging FLUDD, because you lose options when you do so. Since you can't B reverse it and can only shield cancel FLUDD, the opponent can narrow down mario's options depending on whether he charges facing away or towards you.

Away: he can threaten you quickly with Bair, Usmash, Nair, or SJP, all of which sans Usmash require Mario to jump and leave the ground. That's commitment, and all of these options lose to run up shield. Since Mario can only shield cancel FLUDD, he can't quickly threaten you from the ground with strikes or movement.

Towards: He can grab, Nair, SJP or shoot you with FLUDD. Grab loses to spacing and shooting FLUDD in neutral usually doesn't accomplish much unless the opponent is jumping recklessly, and obviously puts him back at square 1 for charging the move. I've covered to other two options' commitments above.

As for how effective it is against predictable recoveries, that's the point of the move. It needs to be good at that. I don't think you're giving enough credit to what Mario gives up in order to charge, so you're nerfing this move without sufficient reason.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I actually put a very large amount of research into these, and while they aren't perfect, I feel like your criticisms aren't the right kind of criticisms.

I hate to break it to you, hun, but my criticism was relevant and called for. You said I don't understand Mario's strengths/weaknesses like I've never played him before. So because I main I don't know a damn thing about Mario or any other character? To me, that's what your previous comment suggested.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The ideal patch for Mario is one that doesn't touch him.

 

[DunnoBro]

Only changes mario might require are:

Nerfing Base BKB on SJP (no more jank rage kills)
Buffing dair autoconnect

Nerfing usmash is dumb. Mario has one of the fewest kill moves of any character in the game. It isn't actually that great on it's own, it just happens to be his only way to kill so it gets a lot of use.

Only smash attacks and VERY situational uair/bair/sjp kills.