The Ideal Patch: Kirby

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Kirby still tragically retains many of the flaws he had in melee, and suffers from a severe lack of range and power. Additionally his low air speed means his recovery is very poor, regardless of the fact that he has 5 jumps. He is overdue for a strong buff, and here it is. My main focus was to make Kirby faster, but I changed some other things too.

Walk speed: 0.93 -> 1.02
Run speed: 1.57 -> 1.58
Air speed: 0.8 -> 1.05
Mid air jumps jump force: +0.1, +0.09, +0.08, +0.07, +0.06
Hard landing lag: 4 frames -> 3 frames
Rapid Jab finisher FAF: 51 -> 40
Dash attack FAF: 54 -> 51
Ftilt FAF: 28 -> 25
Utilt FAF: 21 -> 20
Dtilt FAF: 21 -> 19
Dtilt hitbox size: 3.7/3.7 -> 3.9/3.9
Fsmash (clean) hitbox active: 13-15 -> 11-14
Fsmash (late) hitbox active: 16-19 -> 15-18
Fsmash FAF: 48 -> 46
Usmash (early) hitbox active: 14 -> 12-14
Usmash (mid) hitbox active: 15-16 -> 15-17
Usmash (late) hitbox active: 17-19 -> 18
Usmash FAF: 48 -> 46
Dsmash (clean) hitbox active: 10-14 -> 9-18
Dsmash (late) hitbox active: 15-22 -> 19-21
Dsmash FAF: 54 -> 50
Up throw KBG: 74 -> 82
Down throw (loop hits 1-9) damage: 0.8 -> 1
Nair FAF: 73 -> 60
Nair landing lag: 10 -> 9
Nair autocancel at frame: 56 -> 50
Fair FAF: 48 -> 43
Fair landing lag: 13 -> 11
Fair autocancel at frame: 41 -> 38
Bair FAF: 41 -> 37
Bair landing lag: 17 -> 15
Bair autocancel at frame: 32 -> 30
Uair FAF: 40 -> 36
Uair landing lag: 12 -> 10
Uair autocancel at frame: 22 -> 21
Dair (last aerial hit) base knockback: 20 -> 30
Dair (last aerial hit) knockback growth: 110 -> 120
Inhale (command grab) active from frame: 14 -> 10
Inhale (command grab) size: 5.0 -> 5.3
Stone details: breaking Stone now functions as it did in Brawl, where Kirby still takes knockback but no damage.

 

[KenMeister]

Not a bad buncha notes! I do have to wonder though, why no startup/endlag modifications to his aerials?

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Not a bad buncha notes! I do have to wonder though, why no startup/endlag modifications to his aerials?

1 to make Kirby faster in general
2. coupled with air speed buffs give him better follow ups in the air
3. Faster moves are easier to land

Overall his air game will be stronger.

 

[DatKirby15]

Frankly, you’ve gone overboard here. Kirby has a solid moveset as is, with no real need to change anything regarding his tilts and smashes since his tilts are pretty good and his smashes are balanced. The only thing his aerials need is slightly better startup time (and ending frame data changed to reflect that of course). I do agree with airspeed buffs and the uthrow buff though. Kirby really has most of what he needs in his moves and none of the mobility to use it. Adjusting airspeed and the jump height of his midair jumps allows him to follow up for longer and more consistently on more characters, because as it is now his combo game is also fairly inconsistent. Here’s what I would do;
Airspeed 0.8 > 1
Run speed 1.57 > 1.65
Midair Jumps go slightly higher
Dash attack startup 12 > 10
Fair, uair and nair lose two frames of startup and endlag (10 > 8)
Dair startup 18 > 13
Final Cutter startup 23 > 15, hitbox on the way up, snaps to ledge always.
Midair Stone breaks full shields and comes out slightly faster
Uthrow adjusted to kill midweights around 120% without rage.

 

[OCDkirby]

Personally, I think Kirby's moveset is balanced atm, no changes needed there. I played brawl before ssb4, so I do know what an ideal Kirby looks like. The only thing I would change in 4/upcoming 5, however, is his air maneuverability. He's like a lead balloon when you get into higher tier play.

 

[DatKirby15]

Personally, I think Kirby's moveset is balanced atm, no changes needed there. I played brawl before ssb4, so I do know what an ideal Kirby looks like. The only thing I would change in 4/upcoming 5, however, is his air maneuverability. He's like a lead balloon when you get into higher tier play.

Believe it or not, Kirby has many inconsistencies airspeed wouldn’t fix. I agree that his base moveset is pretty good as is (especially tilts) but most of what’s needed are small tweaks to improve combo consistency against all characters, which would fix his wacky matchup spread.

 

[OCDkirby]

Believe it or not, Kirby has many inconsistencies airspeed wouldn’t fix. I agree that his base moveset is pretty good as is (especially tilts) but most of what’s needed are small tweaks to improve combo consistency against all characters, which would fix his wacky matchup spread.

Ok, true. This WOULD fix his position in the meta tiers, but maybe having him low down is a good thing. He's a finesse character which can be quite a powerhouse if people use him right, so shouldn't it be okay if less people use him simply because he's a "low tier character"?

 

[RIku434]

Some changes are reasonable but I dont think changing his walk speed would help.

Also there is no reason to make any of his tilts have less end lag since they already have pretty low end lag.

F-smash doesnt need to be any faster. It has decent range and pretty good kill power.

Also many of those changes dont help much. Like Kirby doesnt really need less landing lag on his aerials (except maybe a couple frames less from dair) as they all have fairly low landing lag already and doesnt solve any of his problems.

 

[DatKirby15]

Ok, true. This WOULD fix his position in the meta tiers, but maybe having him low down is a good thing. He's a finesse character which can be quite a powerhouse if people use him right, so shouldn't it be okay if less people use him simply because he's a "low tier character"?

So, do you not want Kirby to be useful or something? I mean, he’s no powerhouse in this game even if your combos are optimal. The reason Kirby is low tier is because his weaknesses are too big, not because he’s hard to play right (he isn’t). The problems lie in that he can’t be a devastating combo character against the whole cast, but just against some characters. Against others he gets a utilt to a uair and that’s it. Not to mention his useless specials and weird problems like usmash sourspots and final cutter not having a hitbox as it goes up. I already said what needs to happen here, so I’ll let that speak for itself.

 

[TimG57867]

Frankly, you’ve gone overboard here. Kirby has a solid moveset as is, with no real need to change anything regarding his tilts and smashes since his tilts are pretty good and his smashes are balanced. The only thing his aerials need is slightly better startup time (and ending frame data changed to reflect that of course). I do agree with airspeed buffs and the uthrow buff though. Kirby really has most of what he needs in his moves and none of the mobility to use it. Adjusting airspeed and the jump height of his midair jumps allows him to follow up for longer and more consistently on more characters, because as it is now his combo game is also fairly inconsistent. Here’s what I would do;
Airspeed 0.8 > 1
Run speed 1.57 > 1.65
Midair Jumps go slightly higher
Dash attack startup 12 > 10
Fair, uair and nair lose two frames of startup and endlag (10 > 8)
Dair startup 18 > 13
Final Cutter startup 23 > 15, hitbox on the way up, snaps to ledge always.
Midair Stone breaks full shields and comes out slightly faster
Uthrow adjusted to kill midweights around 120% without rage.

There's a few changes to your list:

• Airspeed .8 -> .9/.95. Kirby definitely needs a big air speed buff but I think flavor wise it's best that he stays just under Meta Knight. Also removes any worry of him stepping on 's toes which are already painfully small.
• I'd actually take 3 frames of F-Air and Up-Air's startup and end lag to aid approach and comboing respectively while making N-Air start at frame 6 akin to Meta Knight. That would make it better for approach and anti-juggle situations. He doesn't need to be a floating Mario but his air game needs improvement.
• I think most would agree B-Air needs a considerable landing lag reduction. The nerf to its landing lag has made much less safe on shield and is the principle reason why SSB4 Kirby's neutral as become so horrendous aside from the FC nerf.
• Make Dash Attack kill 20-40% sooner. It's not like it's a great combo tool and people fall out too easily as is.
• His Smashes are mostly good but there could be a change here and there. Namely, make Up-Smash hit 4-5 frames sooner to improve Kirby's OoS game, and have D-Air hit 2 frames sooner to make D-Air to D-Smash more reliable. F-Smash could use a bigger hitbox but it's fine for the most part.
• On top of your Final Cutter changes, I'd also ad restoring the projectiles old distance. It wasn't the greatest zoning tool in Brawl but it could at least catch landings, stop hardcore camping, and help with edgeguaridng. Now it's almost useless. Wave Cutter was not good justification to nerf the distance, especially since in 2017, no one gives a hoot about customs.

Aside from those, you're pretty much spot on. Kirby actually isn't fundamentally dysfunctional mess and doesn't need massive buffs to ever move. His base kit is good and could mid-high tier potential if just buffed reasonably. The problem is that the devs spent too much time increasing the knock back growth on his worthless hammer. Hopefully, the devs can see how underpowered Kirby now is and make major changes come next game.

 

[DatKirby15]

There's a few changes to your list:

• Airspeed .8 -> .9/.95. Kirby definitely needs a big air speed buff but I think flavor wise it's best that he stays just under Meta Knight. Also removes any worry of him stepping on 's toes which are already painfully small.
• I'd actually take 3 frames of F-Air and Up-Air's startup and end lag to aid approach and comboing respectively while making N-Air start at frame 6 akin to Meta Knight. That would make it better for approach and anti-juggle situations. He doesn't need to be a floating Mario but his air game needs improvement.
• I think most would agree B-Air needs a considerable landing lag reduction. The nerf to its landing lag has made much less safe on shield and is the principle reason why SSB4 Kirby's neutral as become so horrendous aside from the FC nerf.
• Make Dash Attack kill 20-40% sooner. It's not like it's a great combo tool and people fall out too easily as is.
• His Smashes are mostly good but there could be a change here and there. Namely, make Up-Smash hit 4-5 frames sooner to improve Kirby's OoS game, and have D-Air hit 2 frames sooner to make D-Air to D-Smash more reliable. F-Smash could use a bigger hitbox but it's fine for the most part.
• On top of your Final Cutter changes, I'd also ad restoring the projectiles old distance. It wasn't the greatest zoning tool in Brawl but it could at least catch landings, stop hardcore camping, and help with edgeguaridng. Now it's almost useless. Wave Cutter was not good justification to nerf the distance, especially since in 2017, no one gives a hoot about customs.

Aside from those, you're pretty much spot on. Kirby actually isn't fundamentally dysfunctional mess and doesn't need massive buffs to ever move. His base kit is good and could mid-high tier potential if just buffed reasonably. The problem is that the devs spent too much time increasing the knock back growth on his worthless hammer. Hopefully, the devs can see how underpowered Kirby now is and make major changes come next game.

Those are good ideas, so here’s my two cents on them.

• Meta Knight isn’t really very fast in midair either, so I feel like it would be fine for Kirby to be a bit faster. And let’s face it, Jigg’s toes are thoroughly stepped upon already to the point where Jiggs just needs buffs to not be completely overshadowed.
• Shaving 2 or 3 frames off of uair and fair hardly makes a difference, but Kirby’s nair being frame 6 isn’t quite appropriate to the reward for landing the attack. Nair starts combos into grab for Kirby as well as having a long lasting hitbox, so frame 6 might be a bit early.
• I suppose bair needs a landing lag reduction, but it should still require some spacing to use or else it would be ridiculous. Bair right now is very good already, so one would need to be careful in changing it.
• Dash attack doesn’t really kill ever, so I would just rather just make it have less startup and endlag so it can cross up shields and do what it does better.
• All up smash needs is a consistent hitbox, because the first active frame needs to hit to have the power that justifies the late startup. Dair needs to be much more than twp frames faster, which I noted in my post. Dair-dsmash is reasonably reliable already, seeing that it can always work on some characters, never work on others, and for the rest depends on rage. Seems fair for what would otherwise be a terrifying setup.
• I agree with the old projectile distance.

 

[TimG57867]

Those are good ideas, so here’s my two cents on them.

• Meta Knight isn’t really very fast in midair either, so I feel like it would be fine for Kirby to be a bit faster. And let’s face it, Jigg’s toes are thoroughly stepped upon already to the point where Jiggs just needs buffs to not be completely overshadowed.
• Shaving 2 or 3 frames off of uair and fair hardly makes a difference, but Kirby’s nair being frame 6 isn’t quite appropriate to the reward for landing the attack. Nair starts combos into grab for Kirby as well as having a long lasting hitbox, so frame 6 might be a bit early.
• I suppose bair needs a landing lag reduction, but it should still require some spacing to use or else it would be ridiculous. Bair right now is very good already, so one would need to be careful in changing it.
• Dash attack doesn’t really kill ever, so I would just rather just make it have less startup and endlag so it can cross up shields and do what it does better.
• All up smash needs is a consistent hitbox, because the first active frame needs to hit to have the power that justifies the late startup. Dair needs to be much more than twp frames faster, which I noted in my post. Dair-dsmash is reasonably reliable already, seeing that it can always work on some characters, never work on others, and for the rest depends on rage. Seems fair for what would otherwise be a terrifying setup.
• I agree with the old projectile distance.

• Honestly, I would love Kirby to have 1.0 air speed. It's just that I feel a .9-.95 value is more feasible since his slow air speed has been a recurring tradition with Kirby. He had JUST enough to work in Brawl back when it was .85. .95 I feel is just enough to make his air game workable. But hey, if the devs are feeling generous next game, more air speed the merrier. (And make good while you're at it.)
• I think taking 3-4 frames of startup and endlag of Up-Air would finally make it the combo Up-Air Kirby's always wanted akin to while taking 3-4 frames purely off of F-Air startup would finally make it a good poking tool in neutral and improve the auto cancel. As for N-Air, the reason I opted for frame 6 is because on top of setting grabs and combos and being a long lasting hitbox, it'd help better with landing and pressure. It'd help Kirby squeeze out of more situations without being as broken as a frame 3 N-Air. Honestly, as long as the duration remains the same, the startup isn't really an issue as it just affects the timing of when we hit A.
• B-Air doesn't need too big of a landing lag reduction. I'll admit Brawl's B-Air was a bit nutty. Combined with Kirby's improved air speed, even having 5 frames taken off the landing would make it vastly better for approaching and poking without making it overpowered. In terms of landing lag, I feel it should be just under 's B-Air. Quick enough to space and approach but not as quick since it's stronger.
• Up Smash could use consistent hitbox, but startup reduction is also necessary as it's pretty slow compared to ,, or 's Up Smash and Kirby's sorely in need of good frontal OoS and strong anti-air options. D-Smash startup isn't as necessary though. It would just help make Kirby less reliant on Up Throw to get rid of an annoying stock. Between Up-Smash and D-Smash I would much rather take an Up-Smash startup reduction.

 

[DatKirby15]

edit: accidentally made this post and didn’t see a delete option, so... yeah...