The ideal patch: Ike

Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
136
#1
Ike has a lot of potential in smash 4, but unfortunately you often don't get to see this potential due to generally poor frame data and movement options. Naturally i decided to bring some serious buffs to this particular ideal patch notes thread.

Walk speed: 0.869 -> 0.875
Run speed: 1.5 -> 1.53
Air speed: 1.08 -> 1.092
Jab 1 damage: 3 -> 3.3
Jab 2 damage: 3 -> 3.3
Jab 3 damage: 5 -> 5.4
Dash attack (late) hitbox duration: 17-19 -> 17-21
Dash attack FAF: 52 -> 47
Forward tilt hitbox active: 13-14 -> 11-12
Forward tilt FAF: 42 -> 39
Up tilt (clean) hitbox active: 11-13 -> 10-13
Up tilt FAF: 48 -> 46
Down tilt FAF: 29 -> 25
Fsmash hitbox details: now hits consistently throughout all its hitboxes: damage = 22, BKB = 40, KBG = 90
Fsmash hitbox size: 4.0/3.0/5.0/5.7/5.5 -> 4.2/3.2/5.3/6.0/5.8
Usmash (late) hitbox properties: now identical to clean up smash in terms of damage, knockback and angle.
Dsmash (hit 2, clean) hitbox active 32-33 -> 25-27
Dsmash (hit 2, late) hitbox active: 34-36 -> 28-29
Pummel damage: 3 -> 3.2
Pummel FAF: 23 -> 21
Nair autocancel ASA: 64 (wtf) -> 48
Fair FAF: 55 -> 52
Fair autocancel ASA: 36 -> 33
Uair hitbox active: 13-29 -> 11-30
Uair hitbox size: 5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0 -> 5.2/5.2/5.2/5.2
Dair (meteor) BKB: 20 -> 30
Dair (meteor) KBG: 90 -> 100
Bair hitbox size: 7.5/6.0 -> 7.6/6.1
Bair FAF: 55 -> 48
Counter (counterframe) window: 9-35 -> 7-37
Counter (attack) KBG: 100 -> 105

As usual, please let me know if there's anything i could change/add (but please be polite, i work very hard on these).
 
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Arrei

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
1,295
#2
Can't call it "ideal" in my opinion unless it contains something about improving Bair's atrocious FAFs, Usmash's insulting late hitbox, Dair's hilariously small meteor hitbox, Dsmash's horribly slow back hit, and Fsmash's... everything.
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
616
#3
Yeah... b-air can stand a 50% aerial end lag reduction (no more no less). It is one of Ike's faster moves with good knckback and it makes no earthly sense it recovers slower in midair than :4bowser:'s b-air w/o auto-cancelling. As for smash attacks, it's natural that most such attacks are slow on charge-up, recovery, combination thereof. It would be fitting to say his smashes should each recover five to ten frames faster. Perhaps jab 3 needs a faster recovery, say five frames faster.

I for one think the pummel damage should be left alone, but the faster recovery on pummels... y'all are getting somewhere with that.
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
136
#4
Can't call it "ideal" in my opinion unless it contains something about improving Bair's atrocious FAFs, Usmash's insulting late hitbox, Dair's hilariously small meteor hitbox, Dsmash's horribly slow back hit, and Fsmash's... everything.
Okay i will see to it, but i would like to point out that he now has an amazing dash attack, a fast but strong forward tilt, a huge and powerful forward smash, a reason to grab, a massive, lingering up air and the best counter in the game.
 
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Arrei

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
1,295
#5
the best counter in the game.
I don't see "Ike has Witch Time" in your patch notes.

Ike can continue to have his weaknesses even in an "ideal" patch, but these flaws listed are simply ones I feel that exist for no good reason. Ike's Bair has one of, if not the highest recovery time for a Bair needed in the game, which simply feels awful and hampers his spacing game. Usmash's last hitbox kills the satisfaction of landing what's already a very limited move due to its frame data. Dair and Dsmash's badness has been beaten to death, and making Fsmash's hitboxes better doesn't change that it's simply slow to the point of uselessness, when much faster but weaker Fsmashes are already frequently bad ideas and can be used for the same type of hard reads as this one by simply holding their charge for a moment.

In the cases of Dair, Dsmash, and Fsmash, the problem is simply that they need a purpose. All three are basically flagged as "don't use except in 1% of situations" (minus Dair being able to jab lock at low percent), which severely limits Ike's toolkit. Ike could really use a multihit move, for example. Fsmash could've been that. Ike has no reliable way to cover his rear without physically turning around. Dsmash could've fixed that. Dair could've... just not been terrible. Could've gotten its late hitbox back, at least, if they were going to put in Cloud, never mind Link's Dair already being a thing.


Also, all of this is before even getting into his special moves. I'm curious how would you fix the following issues, if deemed needing a fix, and what is okay to keep as Ike's weaknesses:

- Eruption uncharged is a move with 30 frames of start up and 45(!) frames of recovery with a meager reward of a 10 damage hit that can't kill until an enemy is in desperation-Dthrow kill territory. The charged version is entirely unusable outside of edgeguarding. Were it not for the discovery of the 2-frame mechanic and its ability to attack below the ledge coming together to make it one of the scariest ledge guarding moves, and not even one without its own risks due to its recovery time, this would be worse than Dedede's Jet Hammer.

- Quick Draw uncharged has 16 frames of start up for a 6 damage hit and mediocre distance. Landing this hit requires 41 frames of recovery after the swing, more than far more rewarding side specials such as Raptor Boost. This move is also the only holdable side special that puts the user into free fall, unlike Skull Bash, Green Missile, Shadow Sneak, or Power Pellet. (Unless you count Din's Fire...) The swing itself has also had hitbox issues since launch, being able to detect an enemy above or below Ike and cause him to swing but whiff entirely.
It can, however, be charged, which allows it to travel quite a far distance and cover opponents' different landing options. It is also able to be held indefinitely unlike all other charged side specials, making mixups possible. It only becomes as powerful as an Ftilt at maximum charge, though, and it's unlikely you'll get a chance to charge it that high when attacking with it.

- Aether has quite a high vertical recovery distance and a fairly large hitbox from Ragnell's trajectory, but Ike requires over a full second after inputting the move to actually grab the ledge. He is vulnerable during the move's 17 frames of start up, after which he has 4 armor frames while he is immobile. After this, he is again vulnerable to any hitboxes stuck in his path when he jumps up, then vulnerable from above and behind while he spins for 18 frames, before finally beginning his descent where he can grab the ledge. It also lost its ability to grab the ledge backwards from Brawl, which pairs very dangerously with the fact that his back is vulnerable during the move.
(I am also pretty sure that Aether is literally the only move that stops being able to regrab the ledge after stalling for so many uses, despite the loading screen tip that says "SOME moves, like Ike's Aether" have that property.)
 
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#6
I hate this thread just knowing it's like dangling a carrot in front of our faces. Unless the merciful Sakurai takes pity on our main for the inevitable Switch port, we're really just going to have to work with what we got.
 
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