The ideal patch: Ganondorf

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Ever since his redesign in Brawl, Ganondorf has been one of the worst fighters in the series. However Ganondorf has been consistently buffed via patches and just needs one more big push to make it into the mid/high tiers. This is the big push. Note: this thread is part of a series to make a hypothetical finalised 1.1.7 patch for the game to give every fighter an equal chance in the competitive scene.

Gravity: 0.10784 -> 0.107
jumpsquat: 7 frames -> 6 frames
Jab hitbox active: 7-8 -> 5-7
Jab FAF: 29 -> 27
Dash attack FAF: 38 -> 35
Dash attack (late) hitbox active: 13-19 -> 13-22
Up tilt features: now has super armour, active frames: 6-73
Up tilt hitbox active: 81-84 -> 76-80
Up tilt FAF: 115 -> 107
Up tilt hitbox details: sourspots replaced with extended sweetspots
Up tilt hitbox size: 5.0/5.0/6.0/13.0 -> 5.3/5.3/6.4/13.5
Up tilt KBG: 80 -> 84
Up tilt windbox WBKB: 1 -> 1.7
UP tilt windbox size: 10.0/10.0/10.0/10.0 -> 10.4/10.4/10.4/10.4
Down tilt KBG: 100 -> 105
Dash grab active frames: 11-12 -> 9-10
Pivot grab active frames: 10-11 -> 9-11
Down throw Base KB: 70 -> 65
Down throw KBG: 50 -> 40
Down throw IASA: FAF -> 3 frames early
Back throw damage: 5+5 -> 5+8
Fair damage: 17/18 -> 18
Fair hitbox size: 4.0/5.5 -> 4.2/5.7
Fair autocancel ASA: 55 (wtf?) -> 39
Bair damage: 16/17/16 -> 17
Bair hitbox size: 5.5/6.3/4.8 -> 5.7/6.5/5.0
Bair KBG: 89 -> 91
Flame choke (ground attack) FAF: 62 -> 57
Flame choke (ground attack) damage: 12 -> 13
Dark Dive (shock hits) damage: 1.2 -> 1.4
Dark Dive (explosion) base KB: 40 -> 52
Dark Dive (explosion) KBG: 90 -> 95
Wizards foot (ground)hitbox sizes: 4.5/3.8/3.5 -> 4.8/4.1/3.8
Wizards foot (air) hitbox sizes: 5.8/6.8/4.8 (early) 5.8/6.8/4.8 (late) -> 6.1/7.1/5.1 (early) 6.1/7.1/5.1 (late)
Wizards foot (landing) hitbox size: 4.5/4.8/4.8 -> 4.9/5.2/5.2
Wizards foot (Landing) FAF: 45 -> 30

 

[Z1GMA]

The Dash Attack and Gerudo FAF looks really good, but the other stuff doesn't help him much - especially not Vs Sheik and the gang.

Ganon could deal 25% with all his attacks, and still be at a disadvantage Vs many characters.

I want him to get stuff that help Vs the slippery characters;
Better Grab Range
Jab 7 > 6
Dtilt 10 > 9
Uair 6 > 3
Nair 7 > 5
Way faster Walk Acceleration
Air Speed 0.79 > 0.87
Slightly higher Double Jump
Fthrow as a Kill Throw
Dthrow FAF minus 2

 

[MarshieMan]

I think Z1GMA's plan is a bit more realistic and helpful.

Its kinda useless to buff his Utilt so much when it will still be a useless, impractical move. I dont understand why you focused on it so much. His dash attack also does not need a buff, its one of the best in the game. If anything it needs its KBG decreased so that it can combo at later percents.

Also as Z1G said, his grab range definitely needs a buff. Also his Dtilt doesnt need to be buffed, expecially in KBG because its already a great move.

If i were to work with ganondorf i would start by making his movement better, as well as buffing his rather useless moves. Nair and fair come to mind. Theyre OK moves but certainly not as good as they should be.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

The Dash Attack and Gerudo FAF looks really good, but the other stuff doesn't help him much

Here is my justification of every change:
i changed the gravity to increase his jump height, boost his recovery and make him harder to combo, edgeguard, gimp etc.
reduced jumpsquat is invaluable for numerous reasons, including aerial followups.
the extended hitbox duration on dash attack was done to make the move safer, as well as allowing it to be used as a potential movement option (particularly when combined with the reduced FAF) and may help its combo game.
every up tilt change: it's an awful move, now it's somewhat decent
the down tilt knockback change coupled with the change to flame choke's damage and FAF were done to strengthen this combo, and give ganon a more reliable kill option (kind of like the ding dong but much less overpowered)
the changes to Fair's damage and hitbox size make the move easier to land, and more effective when you do land it, making it much scarier, rather than just a bellow average aerial. Same applies to Bair

as for your suggestions, making all of them would kind of take away from ganon's nature, as well as potentially being broken. I really want to improve his grab range, but it is almost impossible to obtain the size data for grabs (the code is basically unreadable)

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

I think Z1GMA's plan is a bit more realistic and helpful.

Its kinda useless to buff his Utilt so much when it will still be a useless, impractical move. I dont understand why you focused on it so much. His dash attack also does not need a buff, its one of the best in the game. If anything it needs its KBG decreased so that it can combo at later percents.

Also as Z1G said, his grab range definitely needs a buff. Also his Dtilt doesnt need to be buffed, expecially in KBG because its already a great move.

If i were to work with ganondorf i would start by making his movement better, as well as buffing his rather useless moves. Nair and fair come to mind. Theyre OK moves but certainly not as good as they should be.

Up tilt would not be useless after these changes. What is you're understanding of the term 'super armour'? also look how large i made the range, and i also made it MUCH stronger (given how much damage the move does, an increase of 2 in knockback scaling is a big deal)

his grab range definitely needs a buff. Also his Dtilt doesnt need to be buffed, expecially in KBG because its already a great move.

see reply to Z1GMA's comment

I DID buff Fair, you just didn't bother to read the notes properly. Nair is fine. Rather than reduce dash attack's knockback, i reduced its FAF, and made its late hitbox last longer. This coupled with the change to jumpsquat will have a similar effect.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Utilt is still useless because it locks Ganondorf in place for 2 seconds while nobody with a brain in their head gets hit by it. Just like WP, it doesn't matter how big it is, how much damage it does, or how much super armor it has if it never hits.

So it's useless.

Anyways, there are much better things you could be doing for Fair, like removing the particularly **** bit of coding that renders it incapable of auto canceling.

Also, I wouldn't call giving him a 6 frame jumpsquat invaluable, considering it's still slower than the majority of the cast. If you really wanted to improve his mobility frame-data-wise, take a look at improving his dash-to-shield to something like 10 or 11 frames, seeing as a slow-ass character who has to approach in every matchup is straight up screwed by having the same frame data dashwise as CF without having the accompanying speed.

My idea on grabs/throws? You don't have to give him a much better grab range, but you could at least make his dash/pivot grabs not slow as ****, seriously cut Dthrow's KBG and a couple frames off of its FAF, and perhaps make either Uthrow or Bthrow into throws that are actually capable of killing. (Hint, the best way to do that would be by changing the way the damage is split on them)

And frankly, if you want to make Ganondorf an actual decent character, consider making his jab frame 4 or 5. It gives him a poke and an actual OoS game, two things he desperately needs.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Utilt is still useless because it locks Ganondorf in place for 2 seconds while nobody with a brain in their head gets hit by it. Just like WP, it doesn't matter how big it is, how much damage it does, or how much super armor it has if it never hits.

So it's useless.

Anyways, there are much better things you could be doing for Fair, like removing the particularly **** bit of coding that renders it incapable of auto canceling.

Also, I wouldn't call giving him a 6 frame jumpsquat invaluable, considering it's still slower than the majority of the cast. If you really wanted to improve his mobility frame-data-wise, take a look at improving his dash-to-shield to something like 10 or 11 frames, seeing as a slow-*** character who has to approach in every matchup is straight up screwed by having the same frame data dashwise as CF without having the accompanying speed.

My idea on grabs/throws? You don't have to give him a much better grab range, but you could at least make his dash/pivot grabs not slow as ****, seriously cut Dthrow's KBG and a couple frames off of its FAF, and perhaps make either Uthrow or Bthrow into throws that are actually capable of killing. (Hint, the best way to do that would be by changing the way the damage is split on them)

And frankly, if you want to make Ganondorf an actual decent character, consider making his jab frame 4 or 5. It gives him a poke and an actual OoS game, two things he desperately needs.

OK i will see to this

 

[MarshieMan]

Up tilt would not be useless after these changes. What is you're understanding of the term 'super armour'? also look how large i made the range, and i also made it MUCH stronger (given how much damage the move does, an increase of 2 in knockback scaling is a big deal)

see reply to Z1GMA's comment

I DID buff Fair, you just didn't bother to read the notes properly. Nair is fine. Rather than reduce dash attack's knockback, i reduced its FAF, and made its late hitbox last longer. This coupled with the change to jumpsquat will have a similar effect.

Whats your understanding of the term "grab"? Yeah, crazy how you can grab people with superarmor.

Your fair buffs are done wrong too.

Seriously, what makes you think youre so qualified for this? Especially when you act like a child and get defensive when people critique your ideas. Act more mature and maybe a real discussion could be had.

Edit: it doesnt help that you havent really given reasons for each of your changes like the rest of us have, and you're not even addressing the points we're making.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Whats your understanding of the term "grab"? Yeah, crazy how you can grab people with superarmor. Also you only gave it 15 dmg super armor which could be beaten out by any smash attack.

Firstly, i almost immedietly changed it from heavy armour to super armour, which i'm assuming you didn't bother reading either, and secondly the 2 nearest windboxes push opponents away, protecting ganon from most grabs. Only tethers could get through.

 

[Litany]

If U-tilt was to be changed to be even remotely viable, the hitbox duration would have to be increased to last at least 6 frames. Then it would at the very least have a niche in Ganon's moveset as a non-commital edgeguard. I'm not sure changing the hitbox sizes or giving it SA would do much; it would just be a weaker version of Warlock Punch. I do like the rest of the changes so far though (The B-air buff is nice, albeit a bit overkill; Ganon's B-air is already an amazing move).

Another change I'd make is making N-air 1 safe on landing - right now it can be punished on hit by a lot of characters. Giving N-air 1 60 WBKB as opposed to it's current 20 BKB would fix the issue, while still maintaining it's linking properties somewhat.

I'd also buff Wizkick and Dark Dive in terms of damage. The latter is extremely weak and unrewarding, dealing less damage than Falcon's counterpart and not really having any benefits. At the very least I'd make it do 17%, same as Falcon's (I'd make each shock do 2%, and the explosion do 9%). The former on the other hand, while now having some killpower, is still extremely weak for the amount of endlag it has. It's -34 on shield at best, assuming it hits on the very last active frame (Sakurai wtf), hardly fitting for a move that doesn't kill until 120% near the edge. I'd make the sweetspot deal 15% and the sourspot deal 14%.

 

[PRGN]

I think that regardless of the weight loss, We would still be combo food to most of the cast and would still have alot of problems against threats such as:
Clouds Uairs/Utilts
Ryu's Utilt strings
Sheiks combo game
Megaman's lemons
And more

 

[MarshieMan]

Firstly, i almost immedietly changed it from heavy armour to super armour, which i'm assuming you didn't bother reading either, and secondly the 2 nearest windboxes push opponents away, protecting ganon from most grabs. Only tethers could get through.

Really? You really believe that only tether grabs can get through? You didnt even change the windbox and if you did it would blow them too far away

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

I think that regardless of the weight loss, We would still be combo food to most of the cast and would still have alot of problems against threats such as:
Clouds Uairs/Utilts
Ryu's Utilt strings
Sheiks combo game
Megaman's lemons
And more

i did not change his weight...

 

[PRGN]

i did not change his weight...

Oh lol my bad. I must've meant the gravity change.
But very interesting buffs!

Personally i'd focus more on buffing ganon in such way that he can easily escape when getting juggled, land safely, get more ledge options and a better recovery.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Oh lol my bad. I must've meant the gravity change.
But very interesting buffs!

Personally i'd focus more on buffing ganon in such way that he can easily escape when getting juggled, land safely, get more ledge options and a better recovery.

reducing gravity actually has 3 very useful effects:
1. It makes it take longer before you start moving down again when getting launched, making you harder to combo or juggle.
2. It slightly reduces hitstun (the reason for this is complicated, but i have tested it and confirmed it is true), further making you harder to combo, and marginally improving your endurance.
3. it increases your jump height, boosting your recovery.

as for ledge options and landing safely, I'm not entirely sure how to do this for Ganon (as i do not main him), any ideas?

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Really? You really believe that only tether grabs can get through? You didnt even change the windbox and if you did it would blow them too far away

i have changed the windboxes in such a way that they will protect ganon from grabs AND make the move harder to escape.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Hmm... I don't know about the f-air and b-air changes. Whether one hits the sweetspot or sourspot the damage is great either way.

Y'all ought to look at buffing Dark Dive; hitting with the move means a serious ass-kicking from the opponent, especially when they have low damage. Higher knockback on the grab or at least an FAF window 10-20 frames sooner than usual when the grab lands. Ganon's recovery sucks already but getting punished for hitting with his Dark Dive exasperates this even further.

 

[SaltyKracka]

landing safely, I'm not entirely sure how to do this for Ganon (as i do not main him), any ideas?

There's no easy way to do it as long as Ganondorf remains as fat and slow as he is, but my favored suggestions involve making Nair auto cancel earlier, giving Dair foot intangibility, or changing the FAF on the Wizkick landing hitbox to 25.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

By popular demand i have made several buffs to Dark Dive and Wizards Foot. I have also further buffed Up Tilt, and i can assure you it IS now usable.

 

[MarshieMan]

Why did you want utilt to be useful anyways? Its really more of a novelty move just as it always has been.

The purpose of buffing is not to change the way a character is played, but rather make their existing options more rewarding/consistent.

Also you run into the problem of making a single move too centralized. You may have given utilt a place in competitive play (maybe. There are still aerial command grabs or just spotdodging and punishing) but low level this move would be broken. I think youre buffing him with the wrong mindset. Focus on increasing the effectiveness of things he already has, like throw/dtilt/dash attack combos. As well as buffing his movement.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Why did you want utilt to be useful anyways? Its really more of a novelty move just as it always has been.

The purpose of buffing is not to change the way a character is played, but rather make their existing options more rewarding/consistent.

Also you run into the problem of making a single move too centralized. You may have given utilt a place in competitive play (maybe. There are still aerial command grabs or just spotdodging and punishing) but low level this move would be broken. I think youre buffing him with the wrong mindset. Focus on increasing the effectiveness of things he already has, like throw/dtilt/dash attack combos. As well as buffing his movement.

i plan on stongly buffing every move in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CdyTdMOqms

 

[SaltyKracka]

i plan on stongly buffing every move in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CdyTdMOqms

*Eyebrow raised*
Including ZSS?

Anyways, I agree that your priorities seem a little out of whack (word of advice: buffs are for moves that could be better. Moves that are **** by design get scrapped and replaced with something that isn't) but all in all the current product sounds like a Ganondorf that's at least decently playable.

 

[PRGN]

reducing gravity actually has 3 very useful effects:
1. It makes it take longer before you start moving down again when getting launched, making you harder to combo or juggle.
2. It slightly reduces hitstun (the reason for this is complicated, but i have tested it and confirmed it is true), further making you harder to combo, and marginally improving your endurance.
3. it increases your jump height, boosting your recovery.

as for ledge options and landing safely, I'm not entirely sure how to do this for Ganon (as i do not main him), any ideas?

Reducing gravity as you did, and highly increased aerial movement speed can both do a great work on Ganondorf's weaknesses.