The ideal patch: Cloud

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Lots of people are going to hate me for this. Lots of people are going to be happy about this. Obviously cloud needs a nerf, but how badly? This thread is part of a project i am doing to create a hypothetical 1.1.7 patch to give all fighters an equal chance in the competitive scene.

gravity: 0.098 -> 0.1
gravity (lim): 0.1078 -> 1.11
dash attack (late) hitbox active: 14-18 -> 14-17
dash attack FAF: 46 -> 47
Forward smash (hit 1) active frame: 19 -> 20
Forward smash (hit 2) active frame: 24 -> 25
Forward smash (hit 3) active frame: 28 -> 29
Forward smash FAF: 64 -> 65
Nair active frames: 5-15 -> 6-16
Nair FAF: 39 -> 40
Nair autocancel: 31 -> 33
Uair (clean) active frames: 7-9 -> 8-9
Uair (late) active frames: 10-25 -> 10-23
Uair FAF: 45 -> 47
Uair autocancel: 26 -> 29
Dair (late) active frames: 14-42 -> 14-39
Dair landing lag: 26 -> 28
Dair autocancel: 43 -> 44
Cross slash/limit cross slash (hit 1) active frames: 10-11 -> 11-12
Cross slash (hit 2) damage: 5 -> 4
Cross slash (hit 3+4) damage: 3 -> 2.5
Limit cross slash FAF: 61 -> 67
Climbhazard further details: no longer has an untechable window.
Limit break start charging at: frame 6 -> frame 7
Limit break charge cancel vulnerability lag (all options): none -> 2 frames

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hm... I've been messing around with Cloud recently, and uh... your objective here seems to be to make Cloud a slower character, and compensate for that by taking out his biggest crippling weakness in recovery.
This seems like it'd end up buffing him more than nerfing him in the end. Yes, in the end, making him slower will make stuff kinda harder for him in some areas, but his untechable state in his recovery seems to currently be his biggest crippling weakness: ever since it was discovered, people have been exploiting it more and more, and thus Clouds have had to be even more creative with recoveries if they don't want to be KO'd so early. Doing this would remove a lot of weight off their shoulders.
You touched on Cross Slash but didn't address the biggest change most people want out of it, which is lower damage and far more endlag in the Limit version. Cross Slash deals 19 damage, and if you compare it to Marcina's DB, although you cannot pressure shields and cover rolls as well, it deals as much as their Down finisher while basically being guaranteed, while DB-Down is extremely situational and barely even connects into itself properly. LCS isn't exactly unpunishable, however people feel like it shouldn't be as safe as it is.
You might want to look into those a bit.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

The reason i suggested to remove the untechable window is because i feel like if i didn't do that, these nerfs may weaken him too much, however i still wanted to make all those changes to make cloud more "honest", and not be just a fighter that anyone can use as a pocket main. As for cross slash, i wanted to keep in the high damage output so that cloud still has a strong pressure tool, now that his dash attack and aerials are slower, but i guess it is unfair that it does so much damage, so i will change that now.

 

[AlexJ15]

Cloud already got a reasonable nerf in patch 1.1.5 and he is most certainly not broken right now. He isn't even Top 3.

Climbhazard further details: no longer has an untechable window.

^ This would be a buff, not a nerf.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Cloud already got a reasonable nerf in patch 1.1.5 and he is most certainly not broken right now. He isn't even Top 3.

^ This would be a buff, not a nerf.

to quote ZeRo, the changes to Cloud in 1.1.5 were more like 'slaps on the wrist' than actual nerfs, as none of them really affected his gameplay at all. He DOES still need a nerf. As for the Climbhazard buff, i put that in to slightly mitigate the nerfs, as i wanted to keep all of them, but thought i was being just a little too harsh.

 

[AlexJ15]

Your nerfs were pretty harsh. If Sakurai actually were to have your ideas go into effect, Cloud would easily drop 6 or more spots on the tier list. Heck, he might not even be top tier anymore.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Your nerfs were pretty harsh. If Sakurai actually were to have your ideas go into effect, Cloud would easily drop 6 or more spots on the tier list. Heck, he might not even be top tier anymore.

the top tier makes up only around 10% of the cast. I am making patch notes for EVERY character, including the rest of the top tiers, with the aim of making everyone have the same chance in tournaments, (or at the very least, have everyone in the same tier).

 

[AlexJ15]

the top tier makes up only around 10% of the cast. I am making patch notes for EVERY character, including the rest of the top tiers, with the aim of making everyone have the same chance in tournaments, (or at the very least, have everyone in the same tier).

Okay. Sounds like a cool project.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Cloud doesnt need a nerf at all. He isnt even top 5. Please learn how to fight against him rather than say he needs arbitrary nerfs. He does not "obviously need a nerf" in any capacity.

 

[SJMistery]

I doubt he needs a nerf. He beats me every time but that is more because I main Greninja and I generally suck at the game. When I switch to Corrin I get him without any problem.
By the way, you mention the untechable window, I think I have a theory on why it happens:

As you know, charging Shadow Sneak disables running, attacking and shielding.
When I am on hitstun and start charging Shadow Sneak, the shield disabled means I cannot tech at all and I hit the ground as if I hadn't used any attack. I have the theory that the untechability is spread for all the attacks that hit multiple times or have a semi-controllable charged phase. On most of those attacks, the charge cancels the falling animation that causes you to hit the ground and get stunned unless you tech, but Shadow Sneak does not due to allowing you to move.

What I theoryze, is that in a similar fashion, Cloud's Climhazzard counts as a semi-controllable multi-attack where you can move while you are in the middle of it, and the tech is disabled during it just like in SS. Just consider that, the untechable frames are the frames when if you press an attack button, Cloud will rocket downwards with his sword, while he can tech once he gets past to the falling animation.
I wonder if some other semi-controllable multi attacks like Marth's Dancing Blade, and Corrin's Dragon Fang Shot or Dragon Lunge could have this problem, but by design they are too fast to test it.

 

[MarshieMan]

I doubt he needs a nerf. He beats me every time but that is more because I main Greninja and I generally suck at the game. When I switch to Corrin I get him without any problem.
By the way, you mention the untechable window, I think I have a theory on why it happens:

As you know, charging Shadow Sneak disables running, attacking and shielding.
When I am on hitstun and start charging Shadow Sneak, the shield disabled means I cannot tech at all and I hit the ground as if I hadn't used any attack. I have the theory that the untechability is spread for all the attacks that hit multiple times or have a semi-controllable charged phase. On most of those attacks, the charge cancels the falling animation that causes you to hit the ground and get stunned unless you tech, but Shadow Sneak does not due to allowing you to move.

What I theoryze, is that in a similar fashion, Cloud's Climhazzard counts as a semi-controllable multi-attack where you can move while you are in the middle of it, and the tech is disabled during it just like in SS. Just consider that, the untechable frames are the frames when if you press an attack button, Cloud will rocket downwards with his sword, while he can tech once he gets past to the falling animation.
I wonder if some other semi-controllable multi attacks like Marth's Dancing Blade, and Corrin's Dragon Fang Shot or Dragon Lunge could have this problem, but by design they are too fast to test it.

Your theory would also apply to diddy's monkey flip, zss's down b, dolphin kick, dedede's up B, ness/lucas Up b (sorta), bowser junior's up B, and many more. However, testing shows that none of those experience untechable windows

 

[SJMistery]

No, it wouldn't apply, because those moves are nothing alike in mechanics:

Bowser Jr what he does is loose the clown car and swap his aerials until he lands, but he is 100% controllable and can airdodge freely during that. It does not even count as a multi-attack, so he is eliminated.

The monkey flip is a command grab, and the second hit/(wathever the other command grabs do, like heal you or slam you to the ground) only happens if he hits an opponent as most other command grabs work. Again, that's another beast entirely and does not count as multi-attack.

Dedede's Up-B could theoretically have the same problem, but it auto-snaps the ledge meaning it has entirely an different response system, just as the Limit Break Climhazard does not suffer from tech issues as far as I know.
The same applies to ness/lucas up-b, they auto-aim the ledge, so no problems.

I do not know for sure if ZZS' Down B snaps the ledge, but considering the tremendous amount of invincibility frames, I doubt it would be an issue. You might have a point with this one.


But let's try to explain my idea better:
Shadow Sneak, does NOT snap the legde and has an untechable window while charging despite being able to move. This is due to a programming oversight that causes Shadow Sneak not to disable the tumbling animation when pressing the B button like every other charged attack does.
My theory is that something similar happens to Climhazzard: the game counts the attack active during the frames where you can press B again to attack downwards, and due to an oversight, the game does not reactivate teching when in hitstun like it does for the other attacks when hit before pressing B the second time.


Dancing Blade might have similar properties to Climhazzard due to working similarly:
You have X time to press B again and one direction on the D-Pad to extend the attack, so I wonder if maybe DB also can cause tech issues if it is used near the ledge. I lack the tools to test it, so I just commented my theory to see if somebody thinks it is worth a test.
Cross Slash and Dragon Fang Shot could also have this problem as well, but the way this moves work would make it almost impossible to test due to either requiring a target to be hit that would act as a shield, or due to the fully charged projectile having a hitbox high enough to sometimes block an incoming attack.

 

[MERPIS]

Not harsh enough, boi.

 

[MarioMeteor]

What I would do is make his aerials less broken but strengthen his recovery to compensate.

 

[MERPIS]

What I would do is make his aerials less broken but strengthen his recovery to compensate.

Just make the hitboxes smaller, there's no reason why Cloud's uair needs to be the size of a whole bowser.

 

[SJMistery]

Yeah, that goddamn Up Aerial, despite the animation being much smaller, can outrange even full hand sword slashes like Marth's Down Aerial.

 

[MERPIS]

Yeah, that goddamn Up Aerial, despite the animation being much smaller, can outrange even full hand sword slashes like Marth's Down Aerial.

In Cloud's defense....Marth's leg is just sticking out there, which doesn't give Marth or Lucina's dairs much actual range..

 

[MarioMeteor]

Just make the hitboxes smaller, there's no reason why Cloud's uair needs to be the size of a whole bowser.

His back air's hitbox is ri-goddamn-diculous compared to the animation, and down air's doesn't completely make sense either. I'd say nerf those three, and make it so that Climhazzard auto-snaps in return.