The ideal patch: Bowser Jr.

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

This thread is part of a project i am doing to show what changes i think are necessary in the hypothetical 1.1.7 patch to make all of the fighters have an equal chance in tournaments, while still retaining their unique style and feel. Here i will talk about Bowser Jr., there is going to be a LOT of changes in this one!

run speed: 1.424 -> 1.46
air speed: 1.08 -> 1.11
air acceleration: 0.07 -> 0.08
jumpsquat lag: 6 frames -> 5 frames
rapid jab hitbox horizontal displacement: +0.2
jab finisher hitbox horizontal displacement: +0.3
down tilt hit 1 angle: 94/45 -> 365
down tilt hit 2 angle: 94/55 -> 365
down tilt hit 3 damage: 5 -> 6
up smash loop hit (2-5) uncharged damage: 1.3 -> 1.5
standing grab hitbox active: frames 12-13 -> frames 10-11
standing grab FAF: 36 -> 34
pivot grab hitbox active: frames 12-13 -> frames 10-11
pivot grab FAF: 42 -> 40
dash grab hitbox active: 13-14 -> 12-14
back throw KBG: 65 -> 80
down throw loop hits (1-5) damage: 0.5 -> 1.2
Nair hitbox 1 active frames: 7-8 -> 5-8
Clown cannon Charge at frame: 43 -> 28
Clown cannon damage: 8.5-20 -> 9.5-22
Clown cannon shield damage: 0 -> 22
Clown cannon cannonball hitbox size: 5.5 -> 6.1
Abandon ship further details: Bowser Jr. will now always regain the clown cannon when hit out of abandon ship.
Mechakoopa generated on frame: 13 -> 10
Mechakoopa tackle damage: 2 -> 3
Mechakoopa (Bowser Jr.) FAF: 68 -> 54

 

[Conn1496]

A lot of these feel like inane buffs, things you'd throw at any character to make them "better" without reason.

I would agree we need more consistent hits on some moves, like Jab or D-Tilt, but random damage, frame and KB buffs seem really pointless when applied to nearly everything that has issues. Some top characters have bad moves - we don't need all of ours to be perfect either.

Things like our move speed and damage output aren't really the problem IMO. Having a U-Air juggle that deals 10% and combos is already pretty insane, especially when we can KO at about 90% with the correct set-ups and have pretty decent movement options, to boot.

That said, a better back-throw KO option would be nice, but it doesn't feel neccesary. I already don't use grabs to KO that much, so randomly bringing that in as an option feels like a cop-out way to make the character better. Grabs don't feel necessary to the playstyle and as nice as they'd be, I wouldn't want one of those buffs that just turns us into an irritating half-grappler.

I honestly think a consistent Jab with slightly better Jab-1 hitstun/KB would make a huge difference to the playstyle. It's one of my biggest gripes that we have a frame-4, pretty decent KO move and it doesn't even connect properly. Top that with the fact our Jab-1 is legitimately worse than Samus' and we honestly have what I consider one of the worst moves in the game at our disposal for no reason other than "it never hits".

I will say I like the idea of more shield damage on cannonball - the idea of having a ranged and consistent shield-breaker is a nice way to keep the play-style but give us a slightly more unique tool to add (I already think cannon is kind of interesting as a tool, but it's definitely lacking.). Jr. as a character can benefit a lot from shield breaks IMO, but can't really perform them consistently. I also find a lot of people will just shield cannonballs, so making it a threat to shields will really ramp up the pressure on it as a tool and overall make it more usable. Additionally, it would also give mechakoopa a stealth buff since one of the more common strategies for using cannon is as a follow-up to a mechakoopa, which if shielded would apply huge shield pressure, and again maybe even break the shield.

As for the final note about always getting back kart when hit out of Up-B, well, it doesn't come up enough in my fights for me to really give a crap, if I can be honest. It's not that exploitable and it seems weird to me that people keep yammering on about it as one of our biggest weaknesses disregarding our awful close-range game and lack of ranged pressure which forces us to play a pretty linear hit-and-run, mix-up style (At least IMO, though I guess we do our fair share of walling too, though that feels more related to the fact we have no consistently good 'get away' options more than 'Jr. is good at walling'. He is good at walling, it just feels like it wouldn't be optimal if we were buffed.).

To wrap up, the only move I'd seriously buff the % of would be mechakoopa itself since I feel it doesn't do quite enough on its own in case of a missed follow-up for whatever reason. I'd wish for a more vertical KB angle on the explosion too, to set up juggles and KO options, but I'm not a sadist. lol Adding 1-2% extra onto the "tackle" hitbox of the MK would suffice for me.

That's my opinion on the matter. Either way, buffs or not, it's not gonna change me still maining Jr. any time soon so...
¯\__/¯

 

[FamilyTeam]

I will say I like the idea of more shield damage on cannonball - the idea of having a ranged and consistent shield-breaker is a nice way to keep the play-style but give us a slightly more unique tool to add (I already think cannon is kind of interesting as a tool, but it's definitely lacking.). Jr. as a character can benefit a lot from shield breaks IMO, but can't really perform them consistently. I also find a lot of people will just shield cannonballs, so making it a threat to shields will really ramp up the pressure on it as a tool and overall make it more usable. Additionally, it would also give mechakoopa a stealth buff since one of the more common strategies for using cannon is as a follow-up to a mechakoopa, which if shielded would apply huge shield pressure, and again maybe even break the shield.

Isn't 30 shield damage Marth and Lucina's pre-patch Shield Breaker damage, though?
Although the nerf on them was unjustified given their state in the game at the time, 30 shield damage is insane. May I remind you that with their current shield damage, 25 + plus between 8-22% of damage (not counting the fully charged hit which deals 50 shield damage and 22/24 with Marth and 23 with Lucina) is already enough to break any shield with just Jab 1>Uncharged Shield Breaker instantly. When it was 30 shield damage, you couldn't have your shield spent even in the slightest if you didn't want it getting broken by the uncharged hit of SB. Giving BJr. a projectile Shield Breaker like this seems extremely borked.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

I'll admit that some of the buffs seem a bit strange, but i studied a large range of complaints about Bowser Jr., and i included all of them.
For reference, this video was a huge inspiration: https://youtu.be/aD8MnBzOE-A
I completely forgot about Mechakoopa, i'll just fix that now.

 

[Conn1496]

Isn't 30 shield damage Marth and Lucina's pre-patch Shield Breaker damage, though?
Although the nerf on them was unjustified given their state in the game at the time, 30 shield damage is insane. May I remind you that with their current shield damage, 25 + plus between 8-22% of damage (not counting the fully charged hit which deals 50 shield damage and 22/24 with Marth and 23 with Lucina) is already enough to break any shield with just Jab 1>Uncharged Shield Breaker instantly. When it was 30 shield damage, you couldn't have your shield spent even in the slightest if you didn't want it getting broken by the uncharged hit of SB. Giving BJr. a projectile Shield Breaker like this seems extremely borked.

In theory, yeah, it would be kind of busted. But two things would stop it - first being that canonball is a really slow projectile that has no reliable set-ups, second being that even fully charged (a whole 103 frames lol), it only deals 20%, and that's on a clean hit before it starts to lose damage.

Even with 30 added shield damage (Which I do think is a little bit much, thinking about it. But on such a weak, slow move, might still be surprisingly too little.), it would likely need to be at least half-charged to do remotely sufficient shield damage unless the shield has already been pressured. Which - while possible as Jr. - you likely can't throw out enough shield damage for an uncharged cannon follow-up to be a realistic threat.

The primary thing to consider is that Shield Breaker is literally more than twice as fast as Cannon and has ways to condition your opponent into being hit by it, which I don't feel will ever be the case with opponents shielding Cannon - being hit in the air, sure, but not shielding it.

I would definitely tone back the shield damage from 30 to about 20-25 though, since looking at other shield breaking moves shows that that % is usually enough to have a balanced yet consistent shield break tool (Such as DK's (+25%) or Marcina's (+25-50%) - even Bowser's Down-B only applies two hits of extra 5% shield damage each, though that breaks shields primarily for a slightly different reason.), and as said before, chances are if you aimed to shield break with a theoretically buffed cannonball, you're not going to be charging it anyway unless your opponent is feeling really pressured, so half a shield's worth of damage seems more than fair in theory.

 

[FamilyTeam]

In theory, yeah, it would be kind of busted. But two things would stop it - first being that canonball is a really slow projectile that has no reliable set-ups, second being that even fully charged (a whole 103 frames lol), it only deals 20%, and that's on a clean hit before it starts to lose damage.

Even with 30 added shield damage (Which I do think is a little bit much, thinking about it. But on such a weak, slow move, might still be surprisingly too little.), it would likely need to be at least half-charged to do remotely sufficient shield damage unless the shield has already been pressured. Which - while possible as Jr. - you likely can't throw out enough shield damage for an uncharged cannon follow-up to be a realistic threat.

The primary thing to consider is that Shield Breaker is literally more than twice as fast as Cannon and has ways to condition your opponent into being hit by it, which I don't feel will ever be the case with opponents shielding Cannon - being hit in the air, sure, but not shielding it.

I would definitely tone back the shield damage from 30 to about 20-25 though, since looking at other shield breaking moves shows that that % is usually enough to have a balanced yet consistent shield break tool (Such as DK's (+25%) or Marcina's (+25-50%) - even Bowser's Down-B only applies two hits of extra 5% shield damage each, though that breaks shields primarily for a slightly different reason.), and as said before, chances are if you aimed to shield break with a theoretically buffed cannonball, you're not going to be charging it anyway unless your opponent is feeling really pressured, so half a shield's worth of damage seems more than fair in theory.

Yeah, I see your points and I agree, but that's applying that shield damage to the default Clown Cannon. Going off of his changes, though:

Clown cannon Charge at frame: 43 -> 20
Clown cannon damage: 8.5-20 -> 9-21
Clown cannon shield damage: 0 -> 30
Clown cannon cannonball hitbox size: 5.5 -> 6

He made Clown Cannon a Frame 20 projectile, which is just one frame later than when Shield Breaker comes out (19), he made it deal 9 damage minimum, which is more than Lucina's deals and as much as Marth's tippered SB does, and again, with 25 shield damage, you only need to jab someone's shield to break it. With 30, you only need to breathe on their shield for that.
This is why I called this move before "projectile Shield Breaker". Since it's much faster, now, it'll both act as a tool for controlling space, and as a much better than average shield breaking move? Seems kinda too much.

 

[Conn1496]

Yeah, I see your points and I agree, but that's applying that shield damage to the default Clown Cannon. Going off of his changes, though:

He made Clown Cannon a Frame 20 projectile, which is just one frame later than when Shield Breaker comes out (19), he made it deal 9 damage minimum, which is more than Lucina's deals and as much as Marth's tippered SB does, and again, with 25 shield damage, you only need to jab someone's shield to break it. With 30, you only need to breathe on their shield for that.
This is why I called this move before "projectile Shield Breaker". Since it's much faster, now, it'll both act as a tool for controlling space, and as a much better than average shield breaking move? Seems kinda too much.

Yeah, I see your point and I really don't agree with the frame buffs at all. lol I even kind of stated as much in my first post. I was speaking more about simply applying the shield damage buff and nothing else because I think that would be a fair improvement without any frame/damage buffs.

In it's current state, cannonball is a rarely used projectile, but as a Jr. Main since basically day 1, I still find sufficient occasional uses for it, it's just not that "great" for anything and whenever it hits it never really has any impact apart from tacking on a little extra %. It's not that it isn't fast enough or doesn't do enough damage or anything, it's just that it has few and far between purpose and those are weak regardless of if they succeed or not.

If it had at least one explicit purpose (It doesn't even KO unless you're super lucky TBQH.), like shield breaking, I think it would see more flexible, maybe even viable use, and that's all I'd really ask for. -an old tool not being explicitly buffed by sheer numbers, but given a real, or just new purpose instead.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yeah, I see your point and I really don't agree with the frame buffs at all. lol I even kind of stated as much in my first post. I was speaking more about simply applying the shield damage buff and nothing else because I think that would be a fair improvement without any frame/damage buffs.

In it's current state, cannonball is a rarely used projectile, but as a Jr. Main since basically day 1, I still find sufficient occasional uses for it, it's just not that "great" for anything and whenever it hits it never really has any impact apart from tacking on a little extra %. It's not that it isn't fast enough or doesn't do enough damage or anything, it's just that it has few and far between purpose and those are weak regardless of if they succeed or not.

If it had at least one explicit purpose (It doesn't even KO unless you're super lucky TBQH.), like shield breaking, I think it would see more flexible, maybe even viable use, and that's all I'd really ask for. -an old tool not being explicitly buffed by sheer numbers, but given a real, or just new purpose instead.

Yus, yus. I can see how this move needs a buff badly, and your way seems to be much better to handle it.

 

[Conn1496]

Yus, yus. I can see how this move needs a buff badly, and your way seems to be much better to handle it.

Your point still stands though, with the buffs the OP proposed, it would be a pretty excessively powerful shield-breaker. Topped with the fact it would be the only ranged one in the game (IIRC), it seems really OTT.

I never really thought of shield breakers in comparison to Marcina's before, but it's a good point of reference when designing a balanced move that does increased shield damage, as it's basically "the original" and has been tweaked to be fair, even within Smash 4.

Still, cannonball needs to not suck so much, and giving Jr. another shield pressure tool would be really cool regardless of what it is. Haha. Just feels like two birds, one stone.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Also, I think you maybe should also avoid basing your ideas off of that guy. The videos he does are mostly just jokes, or at least, I hope they're jokes, some of the stuff he complains about can get... kinda ludicrous.

 

[Conn1496]

Yeah, I'm watching that video and as someone who considers themselves very slightly (Not even by much.) above average as Jr., none of the things he says are... Well, they're not even really problematic?.. I mean, they're slightly fair complaints, but a lot of it stems from the attitude that "I just want to be able to do ___ without having to think about it.". It's actually kind of cringe-inducing, and I hate using the word "cringe".

He treats mechakoopa (a strong stage-control tool, even when "countered", mind - they still have to deal with it) and Side-B (a good follow-up option, but barely a good approach one unless you mix-up with jump fake-outs) like they're something he expects to "just throw out" and hit with. He doesn't even know about the wall-jump tech option. -and seems to senselessly complain about bad throw options like there aren't any top characters with awful throw options, which is just baffling to me.

I'm not even counting the fact that his complaints about cannon literally imply you're also just throwing the move out in neutral, which is a huge no-no. I agree that cannon has next to no uses in it's current state, but it's not a move you're literally never going to use, because it has a few niches in Jr.'s toolset. -and while that's a lame way to have a move be bad but still viable, the move is still occasionally usable, mostly to oppose offstage options with a ranged one if you can't quite get there in time with your movement.

(Also, his complaint about F-air and B-air sound more like complaints about Captain Falcon's obnoxious hitbox, but god-forbid you criticize Falcon for having broken hitboxes, right?)

...I'm not even going to continue with my complaints and criticisms about the video... I'll have an aneurysm. (SOME OF US ONLY PLAY JR. FOR THE ALT COSTUMES, GET OVER IT. JEEZ. >:V)

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think if the OP wants to go on, some of the changes he should be addressing could be more technical changes: Fixing issues from characters that are not supposed to be there at all, from simple stuff like Roy zones... to bigger stuff like this:

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

This thread is part of a project i am doing to show what changes i think are necessary in the hypothetical 1.1.7 patch to make all of the fighters have an equal chance in tournaments, while still retaining their unique style and feel. Here i will talk about Bowser Jr., there is going to be a LOT of changes in this one!

run speed: 1.424 -> 1.46
air speed: 1.08 -> 1.11
air acceleration: 0.07 -> 0.08
jumpsquat lag: 6 frames -> 5 frames
rapid jab hitbox horizontal displacement: +0.2
jab finisher hitbox horizontal displacement: +0.3
down tilt hit 1 angle: 94/45 -> 365
down tilt hit 2 angle: 94/55 -> 365
down tilt hit 3 damage: 5 -> 6
up smash loop hit (2-5) uncharged damage: 1.3 -> 1.5
standing grab hitbox active: frames 12-13 -> frames 10-11
standing grab FAF: 36 -> 34
pivot grab hitbox active: frames 12-13 -> frames 10-11
pivot grab FAF: 42 -> 40
dash grab hitbox active: 13-14 -> 12-14
back throw KBG: 65 -> 80
down throw loop hits (1-5) damage: 0.5 -> 1.2
Nair hitbox 1 active frames: 7-8 -> 5-8
Clown cannon Charge at frame: 43 -> 20
Clown cannon damage: 8.5-20 -> 9-21
Clown cannon shield damage: 0 -> 30
Clown cannon cannonball hitbox size: 5.5 -> 6
Abandon ship further details: Bowser Jr. will now always regain the clown cannon when hit out of abandon ship.
Mechakoopa generated on frame: 13 -> 10
Mechakoopa tackle damage: 2 -> 3
Mechakoopa (Bowser Jr.) FAF: 68 -> 54

After perusing this, I daresay these are reasonable buffs.

Some of the ones I had in mind:

• Reducing landing lag on f-air, b-air, and d-air by 50%.
• Mechakoopa and Abandon Ship do darkness damage when it detonates while possessing the BKB of 's side-B.
• x0.75 damage multiplier when your Clown Car is hit, x1.05 damage multiplier when himself is attacked
• Let's have just one kill throw, even if Jr.'s grab sucks. D-throw ought to do it, similar to 's.

 

[Conn1496]

I think if the OP wants to go on, some of the changes he should be addressing could be more technical changes: Fixing issues from characters that are not supposed to be there at all, from simple stuff like Roy zones... to bigger stuff like this:

Yeah, I saw this recently and while I don't think it's a huge issue, this isn't the only of Jr.'s moves that is effectively r u i n e d by crouch-cancelling.

As I mentioned before a lot of my gripes come from consistency or even safety, rather than power, and I think if Jr. had those properties nailed a little better, he might actually be competing at mid-high tier, even with his current hitbox sizes and damage dealt.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I think if the OP wants to go on, some of the changes he should be addressing could be more technical changes: Fixing issues from characters that are not supposed to be there at all, from simple stuff like Roy zones... to bigger stuff like this:

And here I was just now asking for more buffs. If I ever come face-to-face with that scenario, I'll remember to crouch-cancel to nullify it and use it for myself. But as a non-competitive player who has as a secondary, that's going to convince me to whip out Mechakoopa more conservatively.

I'm still very new to Smash 4, and there's a lot of twists and turns and quirks I ain't familiar with yet. Thank the stars y'all are here with reliable, updated findings.

 

[Ridel]

As for the final note about always getting back kart when hit out of Up-B, well, it doesn't come up enough in my fights for me to really give a crap, if I can be honest. It's not that exploitable and it seems weird to me that people keep yammering on about it as one of our biggest weaknesses disregarding our awful close-range game and lack of ranged pressure which forces us to play a pretty linear hit-and-run, mix-up style (At least IMO, though I guess we do our fair share of walling too, though that feels more related to the fact we have no consistently good 'get away' options more than 'Jr. is good at walling'. He is good at walling, it just feels like it wouldn't be optimal if we were buffed.).
¯\__/¯

Oh my lord thank you! Everyone loves to go on and on about this despite it barley every happening. Tbh the only character I'm concerned about with the trait is Shiek cause she has the most opportunities to exploit it.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Oh my lord thank you! Everyone loves to go on and on about this despite it barley every happening. Tbh the only character I'm concerned about with the trait is Shiek cause she has the most opportunities to exploit it.

Then this has improved the matchup against Sheik, you're welcome

 

[Ridel]

Then this has improved the matchup against Sheik, you're welcome

I don't know why but this comment rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Conn1496]

Oh my lord thank you! Everyone loves to go on and on about this despite it barley every happening. Tbh the only character I'm concerned about with the trait is Shiek cause she has the most opportunities to exploit it.

I wouldn't say Sheik has the most opportunities to exploit Up-B, but it's definitely the easiest character to exploit it with (Thanks, N-air. *eyeroll*) when it comes up as a scenario, and with Sheik having kind of weak KO options, it likely comes up more than people would like to admit in this MU, unless the Sheik's KOs are on point - which they really should be anyway.

It's a major irritation to be tapped out of Up-B, but I don't think it's a big enough threat that it's what's holding Jr. back as a character. It seems so inconsequential most matches because a smart recovery plan can just avoid it, similar to other poor recoveries like Duck Hunt, Pit or even Cloud's.

I can honestly say the only MU I've had this consistently come up in is Jr. vs Zelda (-and even then, the guy I played the most in this MU was a Jr. player too, so think of that what you will.), and if you seriously need that MU to be easier, the absolute last of your thoughts should be "Jeez, Jr. needs buffing.". lol

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

I wouldn't say Sheik has the most opportunities to exploit Up-B, but it's definitely the easiest character to exploit it with (Thanks, N-air. *eyeroll*) when it comes up as a scenario, and with Sheik having kind of weak KO options, it likely comes up more than people would like to admit in this MU, unless the Sheik's KOs are on point - which they really should be anyway.

It's a major irritation to be tapped out of Up-B, but I don't think it's a big enough threat that it's what's holding Jr. back as a character. It seems so inconsequential most matches because a smart recovery plan can just avoid it, similar to other poor recoveries like Duck Hunt, Pit or even Cloud's.

I can honestly say the only MU I've had this consistently come up in is Jr. vs Zelda (-and even then, the guy I played the most in this MU was a Jr. player too, so think of that what you will.), and if you seriously need that MU to be easier, the absolute last of your thoughts should be "Jeez, Jr. needs buffing.". lol

But still, you've gotta admit it's kind of a dumb feature, and something completely unnecessary, as it's not like BJ is overpowered or anything so it can't hurt to patch it out as well.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Somewhat related: This video could potentially help you maybe balance the game better. All videos from this series will, but I feel like this one especially.

 

[Conn1496]

But still, you've gotta admit it's kind of a dumb feature, and something completely unnecessary, as it's not like BJ is overpowered or anything so it can't hurt to patch it out as well.

I wouldn't say it's any more or less "unnecessary" than Jr.'s literally almost useless jab, and I know which I'd rather have 'fixed' first. lol

As I said, I never find it that much of a problem. -and by fixing more prominent weaknesses, it reduces the chance that you'll ever get to a point where said exploit can be abused anyway (Since it requires you to be basically losing in the first place.).

Jr's recovery is severely underestimated, even with it's one massive weakness. There are so many mix-ups and options that most heavies (Casual reminder that Jr. is basically a heavyweight and dies late anyway.) could only dream of while recovering, so I feel that having at least one exploit is kind of fair, actually. While a jab that is (IMO) quite literally worse than pre-patch Samus' Jab is totally inexcusable, especially when our only other close-range fast option (D-Tilt - Frame 4, so it's not even "above average" or anything.) also has a occasional issues with being unreliable.

I know I'm comparing the issue with Up-B to the issue with Jab, and they're two totally separate weaknesses, but I have honestly died more times because of a poorly timed Jab than I have to a poorly timed Up-B and I think that speaks volumes for how frustrating it is as a move to deal with.

Besides all of this, if you really want to make Jr's recovery less exploitable, removing the exploit entirely feels like a total cop-out of a way to do it, whereas offering faster air-dodge out of Up-B to give a smaller window for exploit, or even just fixing the baffling "can only tech jump out of Up-B" problem, would be fine fixes for what is actually an okay recovery move to start with.

Again, I'm not the world's greatest Jr. player, but I'm competent at least, and if I can cope with Up-B's one occasional exploit, I'm absolutely sure it's not the worst thing in the world. This is a Smash game where Cloud's recovery can be safe, for crying out loud, I'm sure if you buffed Jr. where it actually mattered, he could cope with his current recovery options. lol

 

[Ridel]

The only bug they really need to fix is teching off of up-b. You can only wall jump tech out of up-b for some reason which just seems like a dumb oversight. Prolly a smaller problem then the up-b fall but it should be consistent tbh.

 

[B.A.M.]

This thread is part of a project i am doing to show what changes i think are necessary in the hypothetical 1.1.7 patch to make all of the fighters have an equal chance in tournaments, while still retaining their unique style and feel. Here i will talk about Bowser Jr., there is going to be a LOT of changes in this one!

run speed: 1.424 -> 1.46
air speed: 1.08 -> 1.11
air acceleration: 0.07 -> 0.08
jumpsquat lag: 6 frames -> 5 frames
rapid jab hitbox horizontal displacement: +0.2
jab finisher hitbox horizontal displacement: +0.3
down tilt hit 1 angle: 94/45 -> 365
down tilt hit 2 angle: 94/55 -> 365
down tilt hit 3 damage: 5 -> 6
up smash loop hit (2-5) uncharged damage: 1.3 -> 1.5
standing grab hitbox active: frames 12-13 -> frames 10-11
standing grab FAF: 36 -> 34
pivot grab hitbox active: frames 12-13 -> frames 10-11
pivot grab FAF: 42 -> 40
dash grab hitbox active: 13-14 -> 12-14
back throw KBG: 65 -> 80
down throw loop hits (1-5) damage: 0.5 -> 1.2
Nair hitbox 1 active frames: 7-8 -> 5-8
Clown cannon Charge at frame: 43 -> 28
Clown cannon damage: 8.5-20 -> 9.5-22
Clown cannon shield damage: 0 -> 22
Clown cannon cannonball hitbox size: 5.5 -> 6.1
Abandon ship further details: Bowser Jr. will now always regain the clown cannon when hit out of abandon ship.
Mechakoopa generated on frame: 13 -> 10
Mechakoopa tackle damage: 2 -> 3
Mechakoopa (Bowser Jr.) FAF: 68 -> 54

May I ask where you are getting these ideas from? Again I just dont feel these make anysense relative to the character, This is actually making the cannon absolutely ridiculous among other things. Again I have to question what your standing is on this "balance" patch? it seems like whatever you think would be cool.

 

[SaiyanMario07]

I just think Bowser jr. just needs less lag in some of his moves and make some of them faster anyway.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Hi folks, I found this thread interesting, since I've been developing a balance patch and collaborating on community members from each character. I'm always eager to read balance conversations.

You can see the changes made to him so far here (as well as all the other changes):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hWJkG4FEJt_YiHkwG9TlEAN94k2gYxt9dKO-r2sy5Iw/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Conn1496]

Hi folks, I found this thread interesting, since I've been developing a balance patch and collaborating on community members from each character. I'm always eager to read balance conversations.

You can see the changes made to him so far here (as well as all the other changes):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hWJkG4FEJt_YiHkwG9TlEAN94k2gYxt9dKO-r2sy5Iw/edit?usp=sharing

I'll go over everything in this with my own opinion as I did with OP:

The buffs to make jab more consistent actually seem fine - though you do toe a line in hindsight where you risk making Jr's jab more obnoxious than Bayonetta's and that's definitely something I'd worry about when balancing it. Changing one of the worst jabs in the game to one that potentially consistently links into 20% damage from frame-4 is a huge difference, not to mention it will still KO at mid-100%. Again, it would be a good buff, but there are probably less polarizing ways to buff jab now I think about it (*cough* Jab-1 / Jab-2 is still pretty awful, even with a good rapid jab *cough*). I'm likely overestimating the weight of the jab buffs, though I do think jab is a big problem for Jr. so I really don't know if a more consistent jab would be that bad or not - I personally would like to see it, as stated before - especially when he has such bad close-range options right now. This is one that in theory sounds okay, but in practice could be totally make-or-break. Regardless, it would definitely be worth the trail run.

As for the D-Smash buff, it seems... Weird? We honestly already have two pretty good Smash attacks (F-Smash is strong and actually kind of safe on shield, while U-Smash is frame-7 vs grounded opponents, frame-10 otherwise.) and D-Smash isn't really that necessary for us to cover ledge options either. A highlight on why you chose this one would be appreciated, but it honestly feels out of place, so I can't really say much... It is one of our better KO moves, but keeping it as a read-heavier option might just be fine, so I don't feel it to be that mandatory.

--aaand on to grab buffs... Yeah, as stated, I'm not a fan of giving Jr. grab buffs. People complain about Jr's grab being bad, and while I'm convinced it's basically one of the worst in the game, it never feels like a crippling weakness when I play Jr., and I'd sooner give Jr. more interesting options with shields (Both OOS and against them.) than just improve his grab. As I noted before in this thread, grab buffs feel kind of arbitrary and I don't want Jr. to become "just another half-grappler" for the sake of it. -and while I know the buffs proposed aren't that extreme, I'm still just really against giving Jr. "one of those buffs" unless you have a very solid reason to improve his grabs over other moves that could fulfill the same role.

Then there's a cannonball buff which?.. Makes it faster? I dunno, I guess? Seems, again, kind of arbitrary though. Making cannon faster won't really give it more or less use unless you do something crazy with it. Though if the change is just to fix the inconsistency of it not charging exactly the move actually starts (Which is what it looks like, you might have to clear this up.), then that's okay enough, but it doesn't feel like anyone will notice regardless, which is kind of a shame. I do like it, it just seems so minor. lol

As for the Mechakoopa buffs, it's an interesting one, and I actually feel like this one would be both noticeable and fair. The more I think about it the more that I feel that speeding up deployment of Mechakoopa would be one of the more balanced ways to make the move more consistently usable without actually making it a stronger tool. It would also give us faster access to things like Mechakoopa bouncing and shield pressure options, so while I'm not totally on board the "Mechakoopa needs to be better" train, I think this isn't so farfetched an idea that I could say no to it.

--and then we get onto the list of param changes, which I'm not going to really pay that much mind to in fear of popping a blood vessel in frustration while screaming "blanket buffs" at my screen. That said, there is one that I do really agree with - and that's the landing lag on N-Air. N-Air is a pretty good move, honestly, but the lack of opportunities we have to safely utilize it, especially when falling are holding it back a fair amount. I feel like shaving a frame or two of land-lag off N-Air specifically might actually be a very noticeable and positive buff. But if you couldn't tell I'm really not a fan of any of the others and that's the nicest way I can put it without 50 variations of "Why?" and a lot of being censored.

Overall, it's... -okay stuff. Nothing that I'm looking at and going "Wow, these are really original ideas for ways to buff Jr. that feel fair and balanced without being arbitrary." but it is in the right direction compared to most ideas on how to buff Jr. -and I actually feel that the proposed Jab, Mechakoopa and N-Air buffs would go a decent way by themselves to making Jr. better as a character.

Still, feel free to convince me otherwise on the ones I disliked, I'm actually pretty open to hearing why you chose these specifically as it looks like you have a pretty organized project going on, and I'm always happy to try and contribute something of value to discussions like this even if I'm not the greatest voice of reason on it.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The choices were almost universally-sourced from members of the Jr. community and our local PR'd Wendy (#2 in the state). I know nothing about the character--probably less than virtually any character in the game--so I took no liberties of my own except in refining or balancing other proposals.

 

[Nemesis561]

I'll go over everything in this with my own opinion as I did with OP:

The buffs to make jab more consistent actually seem fine - though you do toe a line in hindsight where you risk making Jr's jab more obnoxious than Bayonetta's and that's definitely something I'd worry about when balancing it. Changing one of the worst jabs in the game to one that potentially consistently links into 20% damage from frame-4 is a huge difference, not to mention it will still KO at mid-100%. Again, it would be a good buff, but there are probably less polarizing ways to buff jab now I think about it (*cough* Jab-1 / Jab-2 is still pretty awful, even with a good rapid jab *cough*). I'm likely overestimating the weight of the jab buffs, though I do think jab is a big problem for Jr. so I really don't know if a more consistent jab would be that bad or not - I personally would like to see it, as stated before - especially when he has such bad close-range options right now. This is one that in theory sounds okay, but in practice could be totally make-or-break. Regardless, it would definitely be worth the trail run.

As for the D-Smash buff, it seems... Weird? We honestly already have two pretty good Smash attacks (F-Smash is strong and actually kind of safe on shield, while U-Smash is frame-7 vs grounded opponents, frame-10 otherwise.) and D-Smash isn't really that necessary for us to cover ledge options either. A highlight on why you chose this one would be appreciated, but it honestly feels out of place, so I can't really say much... It is one of our better KO moves, but keeping it as a read-heavier option might just be fine, so I don't feel it to be that mandatory.

--aaand on to grab buffs... Yeah, as stated, I'm not a fan of giving Jr. grab buffs. People complain about Jr's grab being bad, and while I'm convinced it's basically one of the worst in the game, it never feels like a crippling weakness when I play Jr., and I'd sooner give Jr. more interesting options with shields (Both OOS and against them.) than just improve his grab. As I noted before in this thread, grab buffs feel kind of arbitrary and I don't want Jr. to become "just another half-grappler" for the sake of it. -and while I know the buffs proposed aren't that extreme, I'm still just really against giving Jr. "one of those buffs" unless you have a very solid reason to improve his grabs over other moves that could fulfill the same role.

Then there's a cannonball buff which?.. Makes it faster? I dunno, I guess? Seems, again, kind of arbitrary though. Making cannon faster won't really give it more or less use unless you do something crazy with it. Though if the change is just to fix the inconsistency of it not charging exactly the move actually starts (Which is what it looks like, you might have to clear this up.), then that's okay enough, but it doesn't feel like anyone will notice regardless, which is kind of a shame. I do like it, it just seems so minor. lol

As for the Mechakoopa buffs, it's an interesting one, and I actually feel like this one would be both noticeable and fair. The more I think about it the more that I feel that speeding up deployment of Mechakoopa would be one of the more balanced ways to make the move more consistently usable without actually making it a stronger tool. It would also give us faster access to things like Mechakoopa bouncing and shield pressure options, so while I'm not totally on board the "Mechakoopa needs to be better" train, I think this isn't so farfetched an idea that I could say no to it.

--and then we get onto the list of param changes, which I'm not going to really pay that much mind to in fear of popping a blood vessel in frustration while screaming "blanket buffs" at my screen. That said, there is one that I do really agree with - and that's the landing lag on N-Air. N-Air is a pretty good move, honestly, but the lack of opportunities we have to safely utilize it, especially when falling are holding it back a fair amount. I feel like shaving a frame or two of land-lag off N-Air specifically might actually be a very noticeable and positive buff. But if you couldn't tell I'm really not a fan of any of the others and that's the nicest way I can put it without 50 variations of "Why?" and a lot of being censored.

Overall, it's... -okay stuff. Nothing that I'm looking at and going "Wow, these are really original ideas for ways to buff Jr. that feel fair and balanced without being arbitrary." but it is in the right direction compared to most ideas on how to buff Jr. -and I actually feel that the proposed Jab, Mechakoopa and N-Air buffs would go a decent way by themselves to making Jr. better as a character.

Still, feel free to convince me otherwise on the ones I disliked, I'm actually pretty open to hearing why you chose these specifically as it looks like you have a pretty organized project going on, and I'm always happy to try and contribute something of value to discussions like this even if I'm not the greatest voice of reason on it.

I'm just curious at what competitive level are you playing? I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but saying that bowser jrs bad grab is not a big weakness makes me question if you are a tournament player, playing high level players, or mostly an online player?

I kind of felt the same way you did, when I was just a for Glory player a long time ago, but playing top players in my region (South Florida) has opened my eyes to the fact that his grab is one of the bigger thing holding him back. A good player who knows this will NEVER let go of shield vs a bowser jr, knowing that there is essentially no downside to doing this.

If jr had a standard grab instead of what he has now, it would make him a much better character than he is now.. right now he is a one dimensional linear character would thrives off matchup inexperience. He wouldn't even really need great conversions off grabs, just being able to open up an opponent's shield would be a good start in improving the character

It would also give him an out of shield option, at the moment characters can pressure jrs shield essentially for free because his out of shield options are non-existent (up smash is pretty good but risky so is better left off as a kill option)

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

I'm just curious at what competitive level are you playing? I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but saying that bowser jrs bad grab is not a big weakness makes me question if you are a tournament player, playing high level players, or mostly an online player?

I kind of felt the same way you did, when I was just a for Glory player a long time ago, but playing top players in my region (South Florida) has opened my eyes to the fact that his grab is one of the bigger thing holding him back. A good player who knows this will NEVER let go of shield vs a bowser jr, knowing that there is essentially no downside to doing this.

If jr had a standard grab instead of what he has now, it would make him a much better character than he is now.. right now he is a one dimensional linear character would thrives off matchup inexperience. He wouldn't even really need great conversions off grabs, just being able to open up an opponent's shield would be a good start in improving the character

It would also give him an out of shield option, at the moment characters can pressure jrs shield essentially for free because his out of shield options are non-existent (up smash is pretty good but risky so is better left off as a kill option)

thank you!

 

[SaiyanMario07]

Alright what is bowser jr's worst and best mu's as well. As well as some combs for him.

 

[Ridel]

Best is prolly DDD. Our worst is more of a toss up but I would say ZSS or Mega Man imo.

 

[Nemesis561]

Worst IMO are villager Rosa mega Man

 

[Conn1496]

I'm just curious at what competitive level are you playing? I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but saying that bowser jrs bad grab is not a big weakness makes me question if you are a tournament player, playing high level players, or mostly an online player?

I kind of felt the same way you did, when I was just a for Glory player a long time ago, but playing top players in my region (South Florida) has opened my eyes to the fact that his grab is one of the bigger thing holding him back. A good player who knows this will NEVER let go of shield vs a bowser jr, knowing that there is essentially no downside to doing this.

If jr had a standard grab instead of what he has now, it would make him a much better character than he is now.. right now he is a one dimensional linear character would thrives off matchup inexperience. He wouldn't even really need great conversions off grabs, just being able to open up an opponent's shield would be a good start in improving the character

It would also give him an out of shield option, at the moment characters can pressure jrs shield essentially for free because his out of shield options are non-existent (up smash is pretty good but risky so is better left off as a kill option)

I think my point just got across poorly. I did and still do admit that Jr's grab is terrible, but I honestly feel like Jr could be good without an improved grab. Of course it would be an improvement to give him a faster/larger grab, or maybe even some confirms, but there are a few characters that place well on tier lists with awful grabs IMO - Tink and Villy are pretty good examples, and despite their KO throws (Which Jr. also has, by the way.), I don't see too much in terms of confirms from them, and while Tink's throw is equal on frames to Jr's, Villy's is worse frame-wise.

Despite my competitive level, which I'll admit isn't all that high (I call myself a casual, but I do pretty well against some players who are actively trying to be competitive, and at least I dragged myself out of the cesspool that is For Glory to take to finding players in 1/2 online tournaments. Take from all that what you will. lol), even I know a character can be good with a slow grab or poor grab confirms.

I think a lot of my frustration with the idea of buffing Jr's grab simply comes from the idea that - as I've pointed out - Jr. could benefit equally if not just better or uniquely at least from other things that don't just basically turn him into a half-grappler (Things like improved shield pressure and/or better get-away options from OoS in general, would be nice.). His grab isn't actually the problem, it's his play around shields in general - which, yes, while it can be fixed with a better grab, feels like a lazy idea. It's less about how bad Jr.'s grab is at this point, and honestly more about how obsessed people are about a grab heavy meta.

 

[Nemesis561]

I think my point just got across poorly. I did and still do admit that Jr's grab is terrible, but I honestly feel like Jr could be good without an improved grab. Of course it would be an improvement to give him a faster/larger grab, or maybe even some confirms, but there are a few characters that place well on tier lists with awful grabs IMO - Tink and Villy are pretty good examples, and despite their KO throws (Which Jr. also has, by the way.), I don't see too much in terms of confirms from them, and while Tink's throw is equal on frames to Jr's, Villy's is worse frame-wise.

Despite my competitive level, which I'll admit isn't all that high (I call myself a casual, but I do pretty well against some players who are actively trying to be competitive, and at least I dragged myself out of the cesspool that is For Glory to take to finding players in 1/2 online tournaments. Take from all that what you will. lol), even I know a character can be good with a slow grab or poor grab confirms.

I think a lot of my frustration with the idea of buffing Jr's grab simply comes from the idea that - as I've pointed out - Jr. could benefit equally if not just better or uniquely at least from other things that don't just basically turn him into a half-grappler (Things like improved shield pressure and/or better get-away options from OoS in general, would be nice.). His grab isn't actually the problem, it's his play around shields in general - which, yes, while it can be fixed with a better grab, feels like a lazy idea. It's less about how bad Jr.'s grab is at this point, and honestly more about how obsessed people are about a grab heavy meta.

OK yea I understand, I thought you were saying his grab wasn't a real weakness. Well toon Link and villager have tons of shield pressure so you cannot just shield to win, so I agree if they could give jr better options (especially in close quarters dear god sakurai this character cannot do absolutely anything in these situations) then I agree that grab buffs wouldn't necessarily be mandatory but they'd be nice

 

[Conn1496]

OK yea I understand, I thought you were saying his grab wasn't a real weakness. Well toon Link and villager have tons of shield pressure so you cannot just shield to win, so I agree if they could give jr better options (especially in close quarters dear god sakurai this character cannot do absolutely anything in these situations) then I agree that grab buffs wouldn't necessarily be mandatory but they'd be nice

Well, honestly, Jr's grabs have always felt to me less like an 'actual weakness' and more like a design choice (which is why I said it didn't feel like a crippling weakness in my previous post - it is a weakness, but it's something we should be able to go without having a buff tacked onto like Tink or Villy do). -at least, in the sense that they are undeniably kinda terrible, but the character seems like they should realistically balance them out. Though, keep in mind, "should" is the key word there as they absolutely don't, because Jr's so-called strengths just aren't up to par (Same really goes for Little Mac and his airgame/recovery. Little Mac isn't good enough as a package to make up for his weaknesses.).

There are undeniably a few things in Jr's toolkit that when used right are honestly very powerful - U-Smash is a frame 7 KO move against grounded opponents, U-Air is probably one of the best in the game for juggles and damage, and Mechakoopa is a great trapping tool, to name a few - but they're completely negated by the fact that all the tools that help us get to that point are just painfully below average.

Jr. has a lot of tools like kart that are theoretically good, or at least decent, but in practice are terrible or situational - in kart's example, the wind-up and linear path of of the move make it really predictable and only good for reads, traps or surprises despite it being one of our best combo, string or KO set-ups. -and you have moves like N-air which could be an acceptable get-away OoS, but it doesn't SH auto-cancel and our jumpsquat is a painful 6 frames on top of that, and-- the list just goes on for "moves that just somehow miss doing their intended job". All of Jr.'s theoretically okay moves don't meet par, so it means they don't make up for our weaknesses, never mind the idea that they could compliment our strengths.

As a summary/TL;DR: I think instead of basically removing the only glaringly obvious weakness from Jr.'s moveset, our bad grab (unless you count an exploitable recovery, but 1) our recovery is actually good 2) *cough* See: Cloud *cough*), buffs should actually be making our grab seem like a comparatively worse option than our other moves, because Jr.'s tools should - if balanced - realistically be able to cover our lacking grab in some way. -which they don't right now, because they're not even average, they're flat-out mediocre. They don't even have to be as good as a non-terrible grab would be, but they should at least serve a similar purpose of "get-away" and/or "shield pressure", and they just don't right now. -and it really, really hurts. lol

 

[ProofByContrapositive]

Wow, great write ups by Conn1496! You did a really good job of explaining the weaknesses of Jr's worst moves and IMO saving a topic that was just silly blanket buffs. Honestly I feel the same as you on each of the points you brought up and am delighted that someone took the time to write it out for those that can't feel it from lots of high level play.
Really surprised to find someone else who sees grab buffs as something that would water down the character and make him more like the other 'good ones'. Jr is so unique that it would be a shame to see him play out just like everyone else.

A little upset someone would question your skill because the insight you showed in your posts is honestly as high as any competitive jr player out there. Kudos brother!

 

[MERPIS]

Make the hitboxes on his over all jab much bigger, its way too easy to DI.