The Ideal Patch: Bayonetta

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

This thread is part of a project to create a suggested finalised patch for Super Smash Bros. 4 to balance the cast as fairly as i can. (Note: i will usually focus more on buffing fighters rather than nerfing them.

Bayonetta patch notes:

weight: 84 -> 82
Run speed: 1.6 -> 1.57
traction: 0.055 -> 0.054
air speed: 0.97 -> 0.96
gravity: 0.12 -> 0.122
jumpsquat lag: 4 frames -> 6 frames
rapid jab SDI multiplier: 1 -> 1.3
Fair hit 3 KBG: 68 -> 65
heel slide startup: 14 frames -> 15 frames
witch time FAF: frame 50 -> frame 53

 

[FamilyTeam]

What is the point of this. We have bigger threads to discuss hypothetical changes to characters, you know?

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

good for you, but now i must get back to my research and testing to prepare for my patch notes for the rest of the 58 fighters

 

[FamilyTeam]

I don't know if the mods will really allow these to stay open...
Even then: this seems incomplete. What exactly is your objective with these changes? Why was everything changed to what it is now, and what exactly would change on the character because of it?
Assuming you're not doing these based on MagicScrumpy's work already, you really should try to follow him model of going through this. He explains each and every change he makes and why it was added there. As it stands, you made a list of changes and we can only guess what the objective was or if it'd even make a difference.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Very well, from now on i will explain each of the changes i make. I am looking at it from a more attributal point of view, where rather than buffing and nerfing specific things based on combos or kill power etc. i base it on what i think will generally give each fighter better or worse attributes specific to them. For example with bowser, i focused on making him generally stronger and scarier to fight, which is what i believe Nintendo where going for when they designed him.

As for explanations, i reduced Bayonetta's weight to further aggravate one of her few weaknesses, her endurance, and i reduced her running speed, traction and increased the startup on heel slide with the aim of worsening her approach capabilities on the ground. I reduced her air speed and increased her gravity to weaken her recovery (which while strong in theory, is easily gimpable once she uses up her midair jump), and weakened her forward air's knockback to weaken her (already questionable) edge-guarding game. as for her rapid jab, it is the only one that is near inescapable, which i thought gave her an unfair advantage.

 

[iiJjRr]

Keep up the progress dude!

 

[ぱみゅ]

I will allow this to live because it seems to be part of a project so it may be the best method to gather focused information.

But I think most of those proposed changes are pointless, don't really help the overall experience of fighting as and against her.

Spoiler: your change list

weight: 84 -> 82
Kind of agree with this one, a ZSS/Sheik-esque kind of change, she'll rack tons of damage but may die fast. I do not think it is necessary, but I wouldn't disagree completely.
Run speed: 1.6 -> 1.57
Bayonetta isn't running much in the first place, this change, with such a low amount, wouldn't change much except for one little KEY thing I'll talk about later in this post.
traction: 0.055 -> 0.054
Alright, changing traction is a dangerous move, It may push her back so she can't shieldgrab nor Witch Twist as much as she does, and probably make disjoints and projectiles insanely difficult to play against. That may worsen the experience of playing as her if matchups become too difficult. I wouldn't change that and focus in other areas.
air speed: 0.97 -> 0.96
Do not worsen anybody's recovery, ever; it is a strength she has, and if you're already reducing her weight, that's enough of a nerf to her survability.
gravity: 0.12 -> 0.122
Another change that doesn't make much sense, she already has the single laggiest Airdodge in the game, plus she's a fastfaller so combos already work on her; plus, the "weight nerf is enough" thing.
jumpsquat lag: 4 frames -> 6 frames
This is huge, her already average neutral game becomes much, much weaker, would lose tons of OOS options and probably would go against her design, which I can only imagine as "fluid movement".
rapid jab SDI multiplier: 1 -> 1.3
I wouldn't change this simply because characters already have a chance to escape between the 3rd and 4th hits of jab. It isn't that good. If anything I'd change its angle so it doesn't autolink, but that'd be about it
Fair hit 3 KBG: 68 -> 65
This is actually a good one, and goes in line with one of her weaknesses to be unable to kill safely without a setup. Worsen her ability to kill is sonething I'd love to see more often; I'll talk about this later.
heel slide startup: 14 frames -> 15 frames
It's already slow, reactable, and Bayonetta should only uses it for landing traps so this change wouldn't affect her much, if at all. If anything, I'd change its Ending lag.[/color[
witch time FAF: frame 50 -> frame 53
While I think I know where you're going with this, this may affect her gameplay a lot. Against most characters it would make for a better punish window, but then we come across a more specific, yet important issue:
While Bayonetta's meta was progressing, during its early stages we used to think projectile users were particularly difficult for her, to the point Megaman or Toon Link were possibly her worst matchup, but then one thing was discovered: Witch Time's activation has invincibility frames, even if it doesn't touch an opponent, meaning that she can use it to run past projectiles for a short time and fight more evenly instead of being kept out all the time.
Changing Witch Time's FAF would possibly revert this finding and force players to go back to the lab to find solutions; and when you're pushing a fan project, this kind of extra job for a non-official thing might cause aversion, and you wouldn't want that.

Overall, I think your proposed changes are "Too Harsh" (according your poll options); it seems like you wanted to change ALL of her survability specs, but just weight is fine enough (I mean, look at Sheik, ZSS and Mewtwo, only weight sure was important).
I personally would focus more on tweaking her reward instead of her neutral game (which, again, is above-average at best); -1 or -2% on her Bair (reducing damage also reduces knockback), less KB growth on Uair, maybe more KB on Dtilt so it stops working at a certain point, less damage on Witch Twist and ABK, and so on.
I would also tweak Witch Time differently, maybe worsening its refresh rate?

-------

I'm sorry I get all worked up when it comes to balancing projects, I take the matter very seriously specially when it comes to the characters I use, because a lot of projects don't seem to understand the characters and make changes just because. Also because I love the rebalancing ideas so I always try to help them out and to get the best possible changes (and I'm not saying I know what the best changes are, I'm always open to dscussion!).

THAT BEING SAID, good luck with the project if you want to make it go live!

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think, in the end, what always worries me the most is that when people suggest changes to characters they don't main, unless they do an extreme amount of research with a bunch of people that main and have a lot of experience with said character, their suggestions will always come out a bit (euphemism for: very) off.
I look forward to what he might say about Marth and Lucina, because it could spark some interesting discussion, but I am also very worried.

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Although i do not main these fighters, i watch their tournament usage, and do some testing in training mode to find the changes i think would benefit or hinder them most.

As for the witch time change, i didn't want to make it weaker, just less spammable (a common complaint).

 

[ぱみゅ]

You can see if it is possible to alter its regeneration rate, that would make it not very worth spamming.

 

[B.A.M.]

honestly i feel bayonetta is fine as is the only things i would change personally bats within. I would remove it from her AD leaving her with the frame 6 AD she already has. I think that on its own accord would set up a falcon type scenario where she combos you hard but you can combo her hard as well. I understand the point of bats within and its issues, but combined with a game with an absurd amount of strong characters i just dont think it makes any sense for such a unique feature that at best require solid knowledge of your character to trap or in some cases makes it impossible for ppl to combo afterwards. especially because how how kill setups generally work in this game.


I think if anything else adding more landing lag to Wtwist and Wtwist+ side b would be a good thing too, but honestly i think the AD change is perfect.

yeah iono where TheLobsterCopter5000 u guys are getting some of this info in terms of balances changes, but as far as ive seen they seem to lack

1. actual understanding of the characters:

- any1 who play bayonetta or who knows the game enough could tell you those list of changes dont really make much sense. They do very little to mitigate "issues" with bayonetta. There almost without no clear goal.

2. considering the collective shift of balance with these supposed changes all combined:

- what is the actual goal here, because stating its for balance sake is so vague. theres two key ideas of balancing, you normalize traits you deem overbearing, or you accentuate traits that you feel or lacking. Those theres a spectrum there, most balancing philosophies ride on one side of the spectrum or the other. I have looked at other thread with these changes and for the most part they havent been consistent at all.


all in all i think the work these guys are trying to do is admirable, but you have to know the game a great deal more to have any hope of properly balancing this game. especially when the game itself is pretty balance for a cast of 58 fighters. Definitely more so than other traditional fighters with the similar size rosters.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I like your idea, changing attributes as opposed to just nerfing the problem moves, but you REALLY didn't do a whole lot. The only significant one was the jumpsquat, the rest of them were so minimal that I don't think she'd really move from her top tier position. Like come on, 3 KBG on fair 3? That barely matters, and all your changes were single digits and/or entirely insignificant (such as the HS startup nerf, which doesn't matter since it's not meant to be used on shield, anyways).

If I were to nerf her, I'd make her WTi less oppressive when it comes to juggling. This was Dabuz's idea, to make all attacks work like projectiles, so you wouldn't be witch timed for spacing properly with juggles. The only other idea I have is to decrease her damage output and increase KBG to compensate, which would serve the end result of just nerfing her damage output (although I don't want that, comboing people to 90% from 0 is too fun!).

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

@ぱみゅ I'd like to know how you think this thread has aged, as I have definitely gotten better at making these, with this being one of my less proud works, but I think this one may have accidentally struck future gold of some sort (although not necessarily to a great extent), by doing things like worsening her recovery and making witch time easier to punish.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think it aged as well as any other unfinished project: it can't actually go anywhere if its engine never starts running.

I still would personally be against altering mobility and recovery specs on any character, but if you have the means to get the project to fruition, go ahead and do it.