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The ideal patch: Bayonetta v2.0

TheLobsterCopter5000

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
138
So a WHILE back I made a balance patch for Bayonetta, and it was generally received quite poorly. The general consensus was that I had not properly tailored my patch notes to the changes that should be made specifically to Bayonetta. Since it was the first one I ever made, and since the Bayonetta problem has only gotten worse since then, I have decided to completely overhaul and redo it, with a much heavier focus on changing Bayonetta directly based on how she is used in tournaments, as well as ways in which she could be considered unbalanced in general. Please let me know what you think about it.


Stats:

Weight: 84 -> 80
Fall speed: 1.77 -> 1.8 (fast fall speed increased proportionally)


Standard attacks:

Jab 1 startup lag: 8 -> 7
Rapid Jab SDI multiplier: 0.6 -> 1
Dash attack startup lag: 14 -> 12
Dash attack FAF: 47 -> 44
Ftilt (hit 1) startup lag: 11 -> 9
Forward smash FAF: 68 -> 74
Up smash FAF: 65 -> 71
Down smash FAF: 69 -> 75


Aerial attacks:

Nair landing lag: 10 -> 15
Bair FAF: 30 -> 32
Bair landing lag: 12 -> 14
Uair KBG: 90 -> 85
Uair landing lag: 12 -> 15
Dair landing lag: 28 -> 30


Special moves:

Bullet Climax can no longer be cancelled while charging
Witch Time (failed) FAF: 50 -> 55
 
Last edited:

A Scrub

BonghornLeghorn
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
Messages
159
Location
Western Canada
NNID
BonghornLeghorn
Bayonetta isn't that broken. Her neutral is ok, but she has a hard time landing, especially if you SDI out of an airborne combo and she has to land. Her landing lag is atrocious.

She is really good, but she doesn't need a nerf, she does have exploitable weakness'. If you were going to nerf anything, she should have her ledge invincibility removed if she uses her triple jump. When she tries to escape to ledge it would give you more options to punish her for overextending.
 
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TheLobsterCopter5000

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
138
I can understand that opinion, but I feel as though some of her options are just a little too good, in the sense that they can be very difficult to deal with for all but a few characters in the cast, skewing the metagame in a similar way to how Meta Knight did in Brawl (albeit to a far lesser extent). The changes I made were mainly made to make her options easier to deal with, without making them objectively worse per se (with a couple of exceptions of course). I also did try to improve her ground game a little bit, since I agree it is kind of bad.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
So a WHILE back I made a balance patch for Bayonetta, and it was generally received quite poorly. The general consensus was that I had not properly tailored my patch notes to the changes that should be made specifically to Bayonetta. Since it was the first one I ever made, and since the Bayonetta problem has only gotten worse since then, I have decided to completely overhaul and redo it, with a much heavier focus on changing Bayonetta directly based on how she is used in tournaments, as well as ways in which she could be considered unbalanced in general. Please let me know what you think about it.


Stats:

Weight: 84 -> 80
Fall speed: 1.77 -> 1.8 (fast fall speed increased proportionally)


Standard attacks:

Jab 1 startup lag: 8 -> 7
Rapid Jab SDI multiplier: 0.6 -> 1
Dash attack startup lag: 14 -> 12
Dash attack FAF: 47 -> 44
Ftilt (hit 1) startup lag: 11 -> 9
Forward smash FAF: 68 -> 74
Up smash FAF: 65 -> 71
Down smash FAF: 69 -> 75


Aerial attacks:

Nair landing lag: 10 -> 15
Bair FAF: 30 -> 32
Bair landing lag: 12 -> 14
Uair KBG: 90 -> 85
Uair landing lag: 12 -> 15
Dair landing lag: 28 -> 30


Special moves:

Bullet Climax can no longer be cancelled while charging
Witch Time (failed) FAF: 50 -> 55
I, a 56-year-old female Smasher, have been using :4bayonetta2: for six months now alongside my other two mains :4peach: and :rosalina:. The only things I shall agree with is the weight change and some of the ground moves. But is the extra recovery frames necessary on her smash attacks? They're already slow and laggy as it is, so leave those alone (though I would personally give them a slight increase in priority).

Aside from that, ぱみゅ ぱみゅ put it best on the older thread.

Sayonara :kirby:
 

ぱみゅ

❤ ~
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
10,010
Location
Under your skirt
NNID
kyo.pamyu.pamyu
3DS FC
4785-5700-5699
Switch FC
SW 3264 5694 6605
What exactly were these "focuses on how she's being used in tournaments" you're talking about?
I just... don't understand the reasoning behind most of these changes.

The Bair one makes sense I guess, the weight change is fine (akin to the treatment both Sheik and ZSS received), and the Witch Time one also kinda makes sense. But the rest feel all over the place....
:196:
 

TheLobsterCopter5000

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 24, 2016
Messages
138
What exactly were these "focuses on how she's being used in tournaments" you're talking about?
I just... don't understand the reasoning behind most of these changes.

The Bair one makes sense I guess, the weight change is fine (akin to the treatment both Sheik and ZSS received), and the Witch Time one also kinda makes sense. But the rest feel all over the place....
:196:
Very well, I shall explain my reasonings for the changes you don't understand:

First the frame data changes to Jab 1, Ftilt and Dash attack. They all have pretty bad frame data for the respective kinds of moves they are, and two of which are considered almost useless as a result. By improving their frame data, I am making Bayonetta a more balanced character overall, since extreme characters tend to be unbalanced in one way or another.

That being said, it is kind of unfair giving Bayonetta an inescapable Jab combo that deals a guaranteed 19% damage if I am going to speed it up. So I increased the rapid jab SDI multiplier to compensate, so that extending the rapid jab to maximum length is now risky, as the opponent can escape.

Her smash attacks, though fairly laggy, deserve to be laggy due to their other exceptional abilities. They have great range, and good KO power, with one even being a massive spike. Making them a little more laggy forces Bayonettas to have to be more clever with their usage of the move.

BA Nair is frequently used as a multi-purpose tool, and its incredibly low landing lag (among the lowest in the game), coupled with great range and lingering hitboxes can make it very difficult, and for some characters even unfair, to deal with. So I increased its landing lag (although it still isn't particularly high), to make callous usage of it more punishable.

Uair is a long ranged, reasonably fast option which can often be used to get KOs, especially as a finisher to her ladder combos. I have reduced the KBG a little so while it can still do this, it isn't quite as effective. This also slightly weakens her ladder combos without directly making them harder to use. As for the landing lag, similar situation with Nair.

Dair's landing hitbox is very strong and long ranged, making it a frequently used KO option, especially since the spike hit can combo into it onstage. I didn't want to weaken its KO power (especially since 1.1.6 already did this), so I instead marginally increased its landing lag, again making usage of it more risky, forcing Bayonettas to have to be more clever with how they use it.

The fact that you can cancel Bullet Climax while charging at all is kinda ridiculous, and it lets players throw it out a lot, without much consequence, since they can just cancel it again if they see it won't work. (You'd be amazed how often I've seen Salem doing this). By removing this ability, I've made using the move more of a commitment.
 

Hotcakes

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
20
One change I would recommend is making the slowdown caused by Witch Time scale with the amount of damage it countered. Somewhere along the lines of 1% = 10 frames. In addition, altering the amount of frames removed per use down to around 20-30. I'm surprised you didn't nerf Witch Twist considering how much it can lead to. I think slowing it down by 2 frames or altering the hitboxes to be reasonable would suffice. I wouldn't mind if you did both tbh. Also, dash attack and Dair seem fine as is. I don't think they need to be changed.
 
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