The (Hopefully) Definitive Robin Dthrow Thread

[Nah]

The (Hopefully) Definitive Robin Dthrow Thread

Introduction

Way back in August 2015 (iirc), patch 1.10 dropped for Smash 4, and among the many changes this patch brought was a slew of buffs for Robin, among them changes to her Dthrow that allowed for combo potential. It was quickly learned that Jab, Utilt, and Checkmate (Robin's Hoo-Hah/Dthrow-->Uair) were the primary follow-ups to Dthrow, and it's become a fundamental part of Robin's advantage state ever since.

However, despite having this Dthrow for over a year now, there's been very little in-depth testing as far as I know on how her Dthrow works, even though it's kind of important to Robin. There's been several threads that have popped up over the months since 1.10's release (we're now in version 1.16) about Dthrow combos, usually Checkmate, but they tend to be the "this is what the combo counter in Training Mode says is a true combo on a CPU dummy that does absolutely nothing" kind of threads. So maybe not the most useful.

What I'm hoping to accomplish here is to provide a resource for the Robin community and the Smash 4 community in general that provides as much data on Robin's Dthrow follow-ups as possible.

Basic values for Robin's Dthow:

• Base Damage: 6%
• Angle: 85 degrees
• BKB: 30
• KBG: 88
• Throw is Weight Dependent (meaning that the endlag varies depending on the victim's weight, this bit is very important)

Methodology

The testing I've done so far has taken place in Training Mode on Omega Coliseum (I have started to get sick of the music lol), and have been using a Wii U Pro Controller (in my left hand), and a Wiimote+Nunchuck (in my right hand). Testing was done at 1/4 speed to allow for the best chance that the actions of both characters would be consistently buffered. Follow-ups tested for so far have been Jab, Utilt, Nair, and occasionally Uair/Checkmate. Airdodge was not tested for Jab follow-up, as airdodging Jab 1 will just get you hit by Jab 2 and the finishers either in your airdodge's endlag or landing lag, and so should never be attempted as an escape option by anyone. Airdodge is being tested for Utilt as it is possible at some percents to safely escape it and even follow-up/counterattack (specifically trying to Jab Robin before she can shield in my testing). DI was not tested for either yet, as besides me being lazy again, I found some time ago that DI has almost no real affect on Jab/Utilt follow-ups, and I'm operating under the assumption that aerials will behave in the manner I show below so long as the opponent's DI is read/followed. Should probably be tested for sometime though just to be certain. Rage and staleness have not been tested for, as Sakurai still won't give us an actually good training mode lol.

I would also like to thank Zapp Branniglenn for bothering to answer the questions I had asked him weeks ago when I started doing this.

Where the community comes in

As you may have noticed, and as you'll see below, this thread is incomplete at this time. It is currently missing any data at all for (as I do not have these 2 characters) (getting Luma to behave how I want it to is difficult for me) (due to their varying legality, as well as their varying size and weight combinations), and there are plenty of other possible things that I have not yet tested for/I cannot test that may be worth looking into (such as Spinning Dong, Spring, SSHC, etc).

Having this thread contain the amount of data I wish for it to have is a massive task, and so I ask for the community's help in completing it. Because let's be real, this is me we're talking about here. I am not a person of any particular talent or skill. I am not really a labber. There are almost certainly to be errors in the data I've collected. There are things that I may not physically be able to test for. And with all empirical endeavors, it's best that other people attempt to replicate the results to verify the accuracy and whatnot. So please, whether you're a Robin player or not, lend a hand, ok?

There is more people can do to help than test however. Ask questions, offer suggestions for thread formatting/other follow-ups/etc, tell me to go **** myself, or whatever else you may think should be said.

Data

Ok, so here's the part you actually give a **** about (but the other stuff is important too y'know!), the data collected. So here ya go:

Kill ranges for Checkmate, complied by @Yoite : https://www.dropbox.com/s/b610pltvl1kesyw/Checkmate min- max ko%s.xlsx?dl=0

Spoiler: Mario

-testing needs to be done with Super Jump Punch

Jab
0%-32%: Can escape via jump
0%-2%: Can Nair Robin, Robin unable to pull up shield in time
3%-17%: Nair beats Jab, but Robin is able to shield in time. Robin's follow-ups are guaranteed.
18%-32%: Nair trades with Jab, if Robin does not choose to shield. Her follow-ups are not guaranteed.
33%-59%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-27%: Can escape via jump
13%-28%: can escape via airdodge, follow-ups possible for Mario
29%-32%: can escape via airdodge, follow-ups not guaranteed for Mario
0%-12%: Utilt loses to Nair
13%-17%: Utilt inescapable via jump or Nair
18%-32%: Utilt trades with Nair
33%-62%: Utilt inescapable via all means

Nair
78%-114%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Uair
73%-91%: Will hit Mario if he chooses to jump. Will not die, avoidable via AD
92%-94%: Will kill Mario if he chooses to jump, still avoidable via AD
95%-96%: Checkmate inescapable, kills unreliably
97%: Checkmate begins to true combo and reliably kill

Spoiler: Luigi

Jab
0%-2%: Can Nair Robin, Robin unable to shield in time
3%-18%: Nair beats Jab, but Robin is able to shield in time. Robin's follow-ups are guaranteed.
19%-28%: Nair beats Jab, but Robin is able to shield in time. Her follow-ups are not guaranteed
29%-35%: Nair trades with Jab, if Robin does not choose to shield. Her follow-ups are not guaranteed.
36%-43%: Unable to use Nair to escape
0%-43%: Can escape via jump

Utilt
0%-13%: Utilt loses to Nair
14%-32%: Nair trades with Utilt
0%-37%: can escape via jump
38%-62%: Utilt inescapable via jump
0%-16%: can escape via airdodge, Luigi can follow-up
17%-32%: Utilt escapable via airdodge, Luigi does not have guaranteed follow-ups

Nair
78%-101%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Princess Peach

Jab
0%-1%: Nair beats Jab if Jab chosen
0%-2%: Robin can shield Nair, follow-ups guaranteed
3%-18%: Robin can shield Nair, follow-ups not guaranteed
2%-11%: Nair trades with Jab
0%-30%: can escape via jump
19%-40%: Robin can shield Nair, follow-ups guaranteed
31%-40%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-6%: unable to use Nair to escape
7%-11%: Nair trades with Utilt
0%-21%: can escape via jump
0%-9%: can escape via airdodge, Peach can follow-up
10%-25: can escape via airdodge, Peach does not have guaranteed follow-ups
22%-43%: Utilt inescapable via Nair/jump

Nair
79%-99%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Bowser

Jab
0%-1%: able to hold down and shield
0%-56%: able to escape via jump
57%-64%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
65%-67%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed
68%-73%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible

Utilt
0%-27%: can escape via jump
28%-73%: Utilt inescapable via jump/aerial
10%-29%: can escape via airdodge, Bowser can follow-up
30%-50%: can escape via airdodge, Bowser does not have guaranteed follow-ups

Nair & Uair

Due to Bowser's immense weight and floaty nature, it is physically impossible for these to ever true combo on him.

Spoiler: Yoshi

Jab
0%-2%: Can Nair Robin, Robin unable to pull up shield in time
3%-46%: Robin can shield Nair, follow-ups guaranteed
0%-28%: Jab loses to Nair
29%-37%: Jab trades with Nair
38%+: unable to use Nair to escape

-can always escape Jab follow-ups with jump, due to armor

Utilt
0%-33%: can escape via jump
34%-35%: Utilt hits, but Yoshi escapes due to jump armor
36%-38%: Utilt inescapable via jump
39%-49%: Utilt hits, but Yoshi escape due to jump armor
50%-51%: Utilt inescapable via jump
52%-61%: Utilt hits, but Yoshi escapes due to jump armor
0%-28%: Utilt loses to Nair
29%-35%: Utilt trades with Nair
36%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-10%: can escape via airdodge, Yoshi can follow-up
11%-33%: can escape via airdodge, Yoshi does not have guaranteed follow-ups

Nair
82%-108%: Nair will hit regardless of escape option chosen, but if Yoshi jumps he simply just takes the damage

Spoiler: Rosalina+Luma

Jab
0%-16%: can escape via jump

Spoiler: Bowser Jr.

Jab
0%-3%: can hold down and shield
0%-33: can escape via jump
34%-36%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
37%-38%: can escape via jump
39%-49%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
50%-66%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-12%: can escape via jump
0%-21%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-21%: Utilt escapable via airdodge, Bowser Jr. can follow-up
22%-65%: Utilt inescapable


Nair
87%-122%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Wario

Jab
0%-2%: can Nair Robin, Robin unable to shield in time
3%-18%: Robin can shield Nair, follow-ups guaranteed
19%+: Robin can shield Nair, follow-ups not guaranteed
0%-18%: Jab loses to Nair
19%-28%: Jab trades with Nair
29%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-39%: can escape via jump
40%-55%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
56%-65%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-28%: can escape via jump/Nair
29%-34%: Utilt trades with Nair
56%-65%: Utilt inescapable via jump/Nair
7%-14%: can escape via airdodge, can follow-up
15%-39%: can escape via airdodge, Wario unable to follow-up

Nair
87%-118%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Donkey Kong

-Spinning Dong needs to be tested for

Jab
0%-37%: can escape via jump
38%-65%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
66%-74%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-31%: can escape via jump
32%-76%: Utilt inescapable via jump
34%-39%: can escape via airdodge, can follow-up
40%-42%: can escape via airdodge, DK is unable to follow-up

Nair
94%-138%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: ****in' banana monster

Jab
0%-21%: can escape via jump
22%-39%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
40%-60%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-16%: can escape via jump
0%-37%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
17%-53%: Utilt inescapable via jump
-unable to escape Utilt via airdodge at any percent where it matters (between 37% and 53%)

Nair
76%-118%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Herr Game und Watch

Jab
0%-19%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
20%-53%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt

1%-53%: unable to escape via jump
1%-19%: can escape via airdodge, but G&W unable to follow-up
20%-53%: Utilt inescapable via any means

Nair
60%-93%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Uair
63%-78%: appears to true combo at these percents, but does not kill
79%: Checkmate begins to both true combo and kill

Spoiler: Little Mac

-testing needs to be done to see if UpB can break out of anything
-Robin can shield Nair at any percent, follow-ups guaranteed

Jab
0%-2%: can escape via jump
3%-28%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
29%-51%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed
0%-10%: Nair beats Jab
11%-20%: Nair trades with Jab
21%+: unable to use Nair to escape

Utilt
-Utilt stops connecting after 53%
0%-20%: Nair beats Utilt
21%-24%: Nair trades with Utilt
25%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-2%: can escape via jump
7%-24%: can escape via airdodge, can follow-up

Nair
67%-120%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Rinku

Jab
0%-23%: can escape via jump
24%-44%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
45%-63%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-23%: can escape via jump
24%-59%: Utilt inescapable via jump
0%-17%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
18%-23%: can escape via airdodge, Link can follow-up
24%-33%: can escape via airdodge, unable to follow-up
34%-59%: Utilt inescapable via any means

Nair
81%-123%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Gorl

Jab
0%-29%: can escape via jump
30%-39%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
40%-45%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed
0%-6%: Jab trades with Nair. However, Robin can shield it, follow-ups guaranteed
6%+: Nair loses to Jab

Utilt
0%-25%: can escape via jump
1%-25%: can escape via airdodge, unable to follow-up
26%-52%: Utilt inescapable via any means

Nair
68%-103%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: still so good even after nerfs lol

Jab
0%-5%: can hold down and shield
6%-54%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
55%-56%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-26%: Utilt whiffs if she does nothing
0%-7%: Sheik can land and jab Robin before she can Utilt
8%-11%: Sheik can land and have her jab clank with Utilt
27%-59%: Utilt inescapable via any means

Nair
66%-111%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Uair
71%-84%: appears to true combo, but not kill
85%: Checkmate begins to both true combo and kill

Spoiler: Our Dark Lord, Ganondorf

Jab
0%-17%: can hold down and shield
18%-57%: Jab inescapable via any means, full combo possible
58%-73%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-24%: can hold down and shield
25%-43%: Utilt inescapeble via any means
0%-73%: Utilt inescapable via jump
44%-45%: can escape via airdodge, can follow-up
46%: can escape via airdodge, but unable to follow-up
47%-73%: utilt inescapable via any means

Nair
90%-128%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Toon Link

Jab
0%-36%: can escape via jump
0%-2%: Nair trades with Jab. Robin is able to shield in time though.
37%-40: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
41%: can escape via jump
42%-43%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-31%: can escape via jump or airdodge, but unable to follow-up
0%-7%: Utilt loses to Nair
8%-11%: Utilt trades with Nair
12%+: Nair loses to Utilt
32%-40%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
86%-99%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Varia Suit Samus

Jab
0%-29%: can escape via jump
30%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
31%-34%: can escape via jump
35%-38%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
39%-40%: can escape via jump
41%-55%: jab inescapable, full combo possible

Utilt
0%-18%: can escape via jump
19%-73%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
88% or 89%, I can't tell wtf I wrote lol-120%: Nair works regardless of option chosen

Spoiler: Zero Suit Samus

0%-4%: can hold down and shield
0%: can land and jab Robin
1%-4%: can land and clank jabs with Robin
5%-49%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
50%-61%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-12%: can hold down and shield
0%-8%: can land and jab Robin
9%-12%: Utilt clanks with Jab
13%-59%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
66%-120%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Pit and Dank Pit

Jab
0%-17%: Nair beats Jab. Robin can shield however, and follow-ups guaranteed
18%-27%: Nair trades with Jab
28%+: Nair loses to Jab
0%-37%: can escape via jump
38%-57%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-22%: Utilt loses to Nair
23%-27%: Utilt trades with Nair
28%+: Utilt beats Nair
0%-32%: can escape via jump
33%-71%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
82%-111%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Lady Palutena

Jab
0%-16%: can escape via jump
17%-27%: jab inescapable, full comb possible
28%-57%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-11%: can escape via jump
12%-60%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
70%-105%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Marcina

-testing needs to be done for escaping with Dolphin Slash's i-frames

Jab
0%-2%: Nair trades with Jab. However, Robin can shield it, follow-ups guaranteed
0%-26%: can escape via jump
27%-36%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
37%-51%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-6%: Nair beats Utilt
7%-11%: Nair trades with Utilt
12%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-16%: can escape via jump
17%-59%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
70%-115%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: We like Ike, though Japan doesn't

Jab
0%-1%: can hold down and shield
0%-23%: can escape via jump
24%-25%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
26%-28%: can escape via jump
29%-49%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
50%-70%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-23%: can escape via jump
0%-18%: can hold down and shield
0%-22%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
24%-75%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
87%-127%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: "If any power could undo him....'twould be his own"

Jab
0%-31%: can escape via jump
32%-35%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
36%: can escape via jump
37%-41%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
42%-61%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-7%: can escape via jump
0%-13%: Utilt whiffs if the other Robin does nothing
14%-64%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
82%-115%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: please stop spelling it "doge"

-usage of Can to escape situations needs to be tested for

Jab
0%-2%: jab trades with Nair. Robin is able to shield it however, follow-ups guaranteed
0%-35%: can escape via jump
36%-40%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
41%-48%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-16%: can escape via jump
0%: Nair beats Utilt
1%-11%: Nair trades with Utilt
17%-51%: unable to escape via jump or Nair

Nair
75%-114%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Kirby

Jab
-can escape Jab at any percent
-His Nair always loses to Jab (and Utilt)

Utilt
0%15%: can escape via jump
16%-30%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
61%-102%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: King Dedede

Jab
0%-31%: can escape via jump
32%-73%: unable to escape via jump

Utilt
0%-6%: can hold down and shield
0%-25%: can escape via jump
26%-84%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
93%-137%: Nair begins to connect regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: nah nah nah nah Batman!

Jab
0%-1% can escape via jump
2%-10%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed
11%-33%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
34%-55%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-12%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
-cannot escape Utilt via jump

Nair
66%-108%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Fox

Jab
0%-15%: can hold down and shield
0%-6%: can land and jab Robin, however Robin can shield it in time
7%-10%: jabs clank
11%+: unable to land and jab
16%-56%: jab inescapable, full combo possible

Utilt
0%-36%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-15%: jab beats Utilt
16%-19%: Jab clanks with Utilt
20%+: unable to land and jab
37%-56%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
66%-109%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Uair
75%-85%: Checkmate will true combo, but not kill
86%: Checkmate begins to both true combo and kill

Spoiler: Falco

Jab
0%-5%: can hold down and shield
0%-1%: jabs clank
6%-46%: Jab inescapable, full combo possible
47%-57%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-21%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-5%: jab beats Utilt
6%-10%: jab trades with Utilt
22%-57%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
67%-108%: Nair work regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Pikachu

Jab
0%-6%: Nair beats Jab.However, Robin can shield the Nair, follow-us guaranteed
7%-10%: Nair trades with Jab
11%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-10%: can escape via jump
11%-19%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
20%-52%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-6%: can escape via jump, Nair also beats Utilt
7%-15%: Nair trades with Utilt
16%-18%: Nair beats Utilt
19%: Nair trades with Utilt
20%+: unable to use Nair to escape
20%-52%: Utilt inescapable via jump/Nair

Nair
66%-104%: Nair work regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Charizard

Jab
0%-41%: can escape via jump
42%-67%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-5%: Utilt whiffs if it does nothing
0%-19%: can escape via jump
20%-68%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
this is a ***** to do but I swear it can work

Spoiler: Lucario

Jab
0%-27%: can escape via jump
28%-42%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
43%-70%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-4%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-17%: can escape via jump
18%-71%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
84%-126%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Jiggs

Jab
-can escape Jab at any percent via jump
0-5%: Nair trades with Jab

Utilt
-unable to escape Utilt via jump, Utilt fails to connect after 30%
0%-1%: Utilt trades with Nair

Nair
53%-94%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Uair
53%-72%: Uair appears to true combo, but does not kill
73%: Checkmate true combos and kills at this percent

Spoiler: Gekkouga

-unable to escape jab/Utilt via jump
-testing for escape via Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel needs to be done

Jab
0%-21%: can hold down and shield
22%-61%: jab inescapable, full combo possible

Utilt
0%-41%: Utilt whiffs if it does nothing
42%-61%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
77%-110%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: R.O.B.

Jab
0%-49%: can escape via jump
50%-54%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
55%-57%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-28%: can escape via jump
29%-79%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
87%-119%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Ebola BThrow

Jab
0%-2%: Nair beats Jab. Robin can shield it however, follow-ups guaranteed
3%-7%: Nair trades with Jab
8%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-15%: unable to escape via jump*
16%-36%: able to escape via jump
37%-41%: jab inescapable, full combo possible

Utilt
0%-12%: Utilt loses to Nair
13%-16%: Utilt trades with Nair
17%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-35%: unable to escape via jump*, Utilt fails to connect after this percent

Nair
72%-107%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

*DJ-->AD may work here, needs testing

Spoiler: Captain Douglas J. Falcon

Jab
0%-7%: can hold down and shield
0%-18%: can escape via jump
19%-59%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
60%-72%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
5%-26%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-26%: can hold down and shield
0%-2%: can escape via jump
27%-83%: Utilt inescapable

Nair
81%-134%: Nair works regardless of option chosen

Spoiler: Villager

Jab
0%-1%: Nair beats Jab. However, Robin can shield it, follow-ups guaranteed
2%-9%: Nair trades with Jab
10%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-42%: can escape via jump
43%-44%: jab inescapable, full combo possible

Utilt
0%-11%: Utilt trades with Nair
12%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-32%: can escape via jump
33%-44%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
78%-103%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Olimar and his Pikmin sacrifices

Jab
0%-28%: can escape via jump
29%-31%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
32%: can escape via jump

Utilt
0%-1%: Nair trades with Utilt
0%-15%: can escape via jump
16%-45%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
61%-100%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Wii Fit Trainer

Jab
0%-32%: can escape via jump
33%-47%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
48%-54%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-4%: Utilt whiffs if they do nothing
0%-12%: can escape via jump
13%-61%: utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
82%-108%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Shulk (Vanilla flavored)

Jab
0%-23%: can escape via jump
24%-44%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
45%-62%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-12%: can escape via jump
13%-61%: unable to escape Utilt via jump

Nair
80%-122%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Speed flavored

Jab
0%-17%: can escape via jump
18%-22%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
23%: can escape via jump
24%-43%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
44%-62%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-7%: can escape via jump
8%-68%: Utilt inescapable via jump
145-22%: can escape via airdodge, follow-ups possible for Shulk
23%-33%: can escape via airdodge, follow-ups not guaranteed for Shulk

Nair
80%-122%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Jump flavored

Jab
0%-16%: can escape via jump
17%-50%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
51%-75%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-10%: can escape via jump
11%-75%: Utilt inescapable via jump
0%-31%: Utilt escapable via airdodge, Shulk can follow-up
32%-75%: Utilt escapable via jump or airdodge

Nair
79%-124%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Shield flavored

Jab
0%-12%: can hold down and shield
0%-46%: can escape via jump
47%-49%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
50%-53%: can escape via jump
54%-58%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
59%-60%: can escape via jump
61%-92%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
93%-111%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-38%: can hold down and shield or avoid via airdodge, Shulk can follow-up
0%-34%: can escape via jump
39%-47%: Utilt inescapable via any means
48%-72%: Utilt escapable via airdodge, Shulk does not have guaranteed follow-ups
73%-107%: Utilt inescapable via any means

Nair

Spoiler: Buster flavored

Jab
0%-17%: can escape via jump
18%-42%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
43%-62%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-11%: can escape via jump
12%-59%: Utilt inescapable via jump
0%-4%: escapable via airdodge, Shulk can follow-up
5%-12%: Utilt inescapable via airdodge
13%-21%: escapable via airdodge, Shulk can follow-up
22%-32%: escapable via airdodge, Shulk does not have guaranteed follow-up
33%-59%: Utilt inescapable via any means

Nair
79%-120%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Smash flavored

i'm really not feeling it

Spoiler: why is it that we've seen him work as a doctor but not a plumber?

Jab
0%-32%: can escape via jump
0%-2%: can Nair Robin, Robin unable to shield in time
3%-17%: Jab loses to Nair. However, Robin can shield it, follow-ups guaranteed
18%-32%: Nair trades with Jab
33%+: unable to use Nair to escape
33%-59%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-17%: can escape via jump
0%-16%: Utilt loses to Nair
17%-32%: Utilt trades with Nair
33%+: unable to use Nair to escape
33%-62%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
78%-114%:Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Pac-Man

Jab
0%-12%: Jab loses to Nair. Robin can shield it in time though, follow-ups guaranteed
13%-17%: jab trades with Nair
18%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-41%: can escape via jump
42%-44%: jab inescapable, full combo possible

Utilt
0%-7%: Utilt loses to Nair
8%-31%: Utilt trades with Nair
32%+: unable to use Nair to escape
0%-26%: can escape via jump
27%-50%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
83%-106%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Death By Citrus Fruit

Jab
0%-2%: lemons clank with jab
0%-23%: can escape via jump
24%-38%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
39%-64%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-18%: lemons beat Utilt, although Robin can shield it
19%+: unable to lemon
0%-17%: can escape via jump
18%-73%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
80%-122%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Sanic

Jab
0%-16%: can escape via jump
17%-41%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
42%-49%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-8%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-7%: can escape via jump
8%-49%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
77%-107%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Mewtwo

Jab
0%-28%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
29%-33%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed
34%-39%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
40%-53%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-4%: pressing Nair allows it to avoid Utilt, Nair will not hit Robin though
0%-53%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Note: DJ-->AD needs to be tested for Jab/Utilt

Nair
59%-107%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Uair
69%: uair appear to begin to true combo at the percent, but does not kill
85: Checkmate begins to both true combo and kill

Spoiler: SHORYUKEN

Jab
0%-1%: can hold down and shield
0%-23%: can escape via jump
24%-47%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
48%-68%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-18%: can hold down and shield
0%-21%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-6%: can escape via jump
7%-78%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
80%-121%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Cloud Strife, non-Limit

Jab
0%: can hold down and shield
0%-27%: can escape via jump
28%-34%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
35%-41%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed
42%-46%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
47%-72%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-18%: can hold down and shield
0%-21%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-12%: can escape via jump
13%-71%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
80%-121%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Genkai wo kaiben

Jab
0%-10%: can hold down and shield
0%-22%: can escape via jump
23%-32%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
33%-38%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed
39%-52%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
53%-73%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-29%: Utilt whiffs if he does nothing
0%-7%: can escape via jump
8%-10%: pressing jump will make him jump into Utilt
11%-12%: can escape via jump
13%-14%: will land before he can jump, landing animation causes Utilt to whiff
15%-74%: Utilt inescapable via jump
13%-29%: mashing airdodge via make him either land and pull up shield, or just plain land, avoids Utilt either way
30%-74%: unable to escape via airdodge

Nair
79%-127%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Dragon Waifu Chainsaw Massacre

Jab
0%-27%: can escape via jump
28%-37%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
38%-41%: Jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed
42%-44%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
45%-64%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-16%: Utilt whiffs if they do nothing
0%-17%: can escape via jump
18%-67%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair
78%-122%: Nair works regardless of escape option chosen

Spoiler: Bae

just mash airdodge Bat Within will bail you out lol

jk, here's the data:

Jab
0%-14%: can hold down and shield
15%-53%: jab inescapable, full combo possible
54%-67%: jab 1 inescapable, full combo not guaranteed

Utilt
0%-20%: can hold down and shield
21%-60%: Utilt inescapable via jump

Nair

 

[Nah]

alright OP's fixed now, thanks Zapp

might as well keep this around just in case I need it in the future for whatever reason

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If there's a character post limit, I've never seen it. It looks like the error in the original post is not having a [/spoiler] after charizard's section, so it basically eats everything else after it in the post as new spoilers are created. If you edit the original post, you may be able to fix it with that addition. Also for large posts, I like to choose the Preview/More Options tab near Create Thread/Post Reply to make sure my spoilers work like I want them to

This looks really comprehensive, by the way. Since most victims are airborne when they can act, double jump is the best call for them to avoid followups. After all, double jumps are supposed to be a frame 1 means of ascending. For Mewtwo and Ness, this is not so much the case, they need to double jump and air dodge as you've figured out. But with Smash 4's buffering rules, you can only buffer 1 action at a time. It is possible to buffer jump and input air dodge afterward in real time but takes significant practice. In this regard, they are very disadvantaged with escaping Dthrow followups compared to other characters that just need to mash a button. And knowing when a victim can Nair or get any other free hit on Robin at 0% is also crucial if you suspect the opponent knows about it. You might instead elect to use a different throw at that point.

If I can add one thing is that Little Mac has another option of escape. His up special has frame 1 invulnerability. So watch out for special moves like that. Another trickster is Duck Hunt, his neutral B spawns the can on frame 1, where it detonates soon after as long as it touches his attacker. This is commonly cited as a combo break move that forces both characters to take damage. Seems silly, but it works as long as he can act for 1 frame before being hit. Finally there's Ryu's Focus attack, letting him armor one move. My guess is that focus attack is applicable for when Robin is using Utilt, but won't get you out of a jab combo.

 

[Zareidriel]

First of all, thanks for putting the time into making this and doing the research. This is SO EXTREMELY in-depth, this is a must-see resource for anyone who is serious about Robin. C'est magnifique!

Secondly, I'm pretty positive there is a post limit; I know from my experience of doing Smashboards projects, etc. (You can slap me if I'm wrong though XD) It's pretty long but that's why you'll sometimes see thread authors reserve a couple of posts. There's also a soft limit on guides, once my guide got too long I started having really bad slowdown/lagging in my browser; this was most of the reason I switched to an HTML webpage so. Not sure if it was a Chrome problem or what.

Thirdly, and I know you've seen this question before Nah, do you mind if I put this information in my guide? I can credit you and/or link to this thread in any manner of your choosing.

And lastly and finally somewhat on topic, I noticed a while ago that Nair seems to connect fairly consistently but never really put 2 and 2 together like you did in this analysis...this is very good/interesting, as it fills in the ~80-100% range with a downthrow followup for damage, so that the progression seems to go something like:

Jab -> Uptilt -> Nair -> Checkmate

With a pretty solid followup progression like that and the precise knowledge of when to use them on each character, I think it'll make our grab game consistent in the damage department, and therefore, something to be feared. Which will hopefully then progress into more attack opportunities.

As long as we can land the grab, of course~

Edit: I also had some other questions about Nair. Does the end percentage where it no longer hits go fairly high, i.e., pretty much meld into Checkmate percents? And if it does, about how high is it able to go? This would be useful information in a scenario where you have no Levin. And am I correct in assuming you'll have to follow their DI to land the Nair, and is it less DI-affected earlier at percents and increasingly DI-affected at higher? Just wondering if you had any tips on that front.

 

[Goombo]

Some additional infos and more situational followups:


1. In the percent window before Upair connects as a true combo, Robin can often frametrap the airdodge option with a shorthop Upair > fastfall (dash)grab and reset the situation.
The „true“ first percent where they are killconfirmed from grab can therefore be lower compared to the chart above especially with light characters and on low ceiling stages. Unfortunately things can get much more complicated because levin sword can be ejected during the „chaingrab“.

2. If your opponent is at the borderline percent where you are not sure if checkmate already kills them, don‘t forget to pummel one time (one pummel can‘t be mashed out realistically at those percent hights).
Also if your opponent continously airdodges and gets regrabbed, don‘t forget to add a pummel everytime.

3. Don’t pummel if the Upair kill is already guaranteed to give the opponent less time to choose optimal DI.

4. If you get the Upair frametrap you can follow up with different moves than regrab. I don’t think there is a reason to do anything but the regrab if it doesn’t outright kill, so the important ones are Fsmash and Jab (if you’re not sure if you will still have Levin Sword/if Fsmash is probably not possible frame-advantage-wise). Keep in mind Fsmashs startup is significantly slower than grab or dashgrab (9/8 frames slower) and thus not always guaranteed when regrab would be.

5. If you have Arcthunder loaded you can and should punish the frametrap with it. It will bring you 10% closer to checkmate killpercents (plus pummel percentage if you need it) and probably skip the percent window where Upair does connect but not kill. Or just kill with a smash attack/use Dair semispike if it still works.
Wait out the full arcthunder before regrabbing them for maximum damage.

6. If you have to fullhop Upair to reach the opponent, but he still can airdodge out of it your best chance to punish him after using Upair is using another aerial (normaly Upair, Bair could probably work too and kill earlier). Robin is barely able to bring out another aerial after FH Upair, so don’t fastfall!

7. If you grab the opponent at the ledge, shorthop Upair doesn’t frametrap anymore so it’s better to go for either double Fair (even better: Fair to Nair) because of it’s 12 frames lower FAF and better killingpower in this situation compared to Upair or just the raw airdodgeread Dair.

8. At the Upair frametrap percents Fair can be a better option because if the opponent likes to airdodge, Fairs two frames slower startup gives him a few more percent to do so (when Upair wouldn’t kill anyway) and put himself in an even worse position. When he gets hit by Fair instead he finds himself offstage in an arguably worse position compared to where Upair would put him.

9. At higher checkmate percents when Upair without dash would miss the DI-away-option, Fair can still cover it and also probably kill.

10. Play Robin with tiltstick. Otherwhise I really can’t help you anymore.

 

[Nah]

Zareidriel yeah you can include this in your guide if you want, so long as credit is given somehow.

As for your questions about Nair, the end percentages are still something that needs to be tested, though for Mario I happen to know that Nair stops working on him at 104%, which certainly overlaps with Checkmate percents. I don't know yet if the gap is of that size (roughly 25% in Mario's case) for the whole cast or what, but I'm certain that DI does need to be read/followed for Nair and Uair to work. It probably is more affected by DI as % increases, though again, needs to be tested to truly confirm.

 

[Zareidriel]

When someone (who has more time than I do) gets the chance, could they test the effects of rage on the dthrow combos, and most importantly, the Checkmate? I feel like knowing what we have to change in our strategic calculations at 50% or 100% rage is vitally important to reliability. From my cursory observations, it seems like it does play a fairly significant role.

 

[Nah]

so started to add numbers for end percentages on Nair, hopefully will get the rest done+some other **** sometime

 

[Nah]

I had actually added these in a while ago, but there's now end percentages for Nair for the entire cast except Bayo and Zard. New things tho are that Limit Break Cloud is at the same point as the rest of the cast, and I have begun testing on Shulk in his Monado Arts, but there's only Speed for now (it takes a while since the arts only last so long and need to recharge). Speed Shulk, Limit Break Cloud, and Mario now have data for AD+Utilt interactions.

As for rage, idk if it's something I'll ever be able to test, but from experience what I know is that rage essentially moves the Checkmate window down to some degree, varying with how much rage you have. It'll start and stop working earlier than it does without rage. it's probably like that for the other follow-ups too.

 

[Nah]

hi I didn't forget about this, I just didn't feel like doing anything....for 3 months

like I said, I'm not really the labbing type

but today I did a little bit and there's now a few new values added

 

[Nah]

A few more values added, but the more important thing is that at the top of the data list I added a link to a spreadsheet containing the kill % ranges (without rage) for Checkmate on the whole cast, created by another Smashboards user a while ago. I realized that the number one thing people tend to want to know/look for in regards to Robin's Dthrow is "when does Checkmate murder my character" and I have had very little data on that displayed here and figured I should put something here for that, given that it'll probably take me 3000 years to get significant data on that for most of the cast (though I do have stuff for a few of them) lol. The sheet gives me something to compare against when I finally get around to doing it myself, which is good. Gut feeling based on Checkmating people for a while now tells me that the numbers are more or less accurate/within acceptable margin of error.

so yeah

 

[Z1GMA]

What are the optimal inputs for Check Mate?
Dthrow > BDC jump + rising Uair?
Dthrow > jump + rising Uair?

 

[Nah]

idk what a BDC jump is even